| I see Russia have at last suggested something 14:16 - Mar 7 with 7628 views | nodge_blue |
Maybe we are seeing that they are looking for a way out rather than total war.
Im not sure it will be acceptable to Ukraine though.
Russia has said that it can stop operations at "any moment" if Ukraine meets Russian conditions.
Kremlin spokesman Dmitry Peskov says Ukraine must recognise Crimea as Russian, and Donetsk and Luhansk as independent states.
In addition to this, Peskov says Ukraine must amend its constitution and reject claims to enter any bloc (like Nato, for example).
He adds that Russia will finish the "demilitarisation" of Ukraine, and if these conditions are met Russian military action will "stop in a moment".
The Kremlin spokesman insists that Russia is not seeking to make any further territorial claims on Ukraine. |  |
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| I see Russia have at last suggested something on 11:02 - Mar 8 with 1262 views | Darth_Koont |
| I see Russia have at last suggested something on 10:43 - Mar 8 by BloomBlue |
But doesn't that run the danger of saying any country should give into the aggressor?
So if Putin wants a part of Poland and goes aggressive against them the world let's him have part of Poland, same with Finland, Moldova, Germany, etc etc just so we avoid war?
I find it amazing that people think Putin will just stop with Ukraine if he gets what he wants by being aggressive.
Also why shouldn't Ukraine in a democratic country have the right to choose if it wants to join the EU why should another country that's not part of the EU veto them even trying to join?
Finally if the Russians had said we will withdraw from Ukraine it might have had some value but they didn't they said we will stop. |
No. But there’s an inevitability about this based on how we’ve mismanaged Putin over the years.
Maybe if we hadn’t turned a blind eye before then there’d be a better situation to scale back to?
And of course deep down, I think war is seldom an answer. It just delays the inevitable “peaceful” settlement when the fighting stops but by then the “winner” takes even more. What’s worse in this particular situation is that we’re also largely powerless – if we want to help it will be what we can bring to bear around negotiation because our military strength has been rendered largely useless. |  |
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| I see Russia have at last suggested something on 11:04 - Mar 8 with 1246 views | Darth_Koont |
| I see Russia have at last suggested something on 11:02 - Mar 8 by BloomBlue |
But again where do you stop, Russia is the aggressor not Ukraine, For example if the Ukrainian people think joining the EU is best for them but Russia threatens them if they do attempt to join the EU do we simply say Ukraine isn't allowed to join the EU because Russia could start bombing them again? |
Russia is bombing them now. | |
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| I see Russia have at last suggested something on 11:06 - Mar 8 with 1238 views | BloomBlue |
| I see Russia have at last suggested something on 11:04 - Mar 8 by Darth_Koont |
Russia is bombing them now. |
And they will again in 2 or 3 years if we stop the bombing now and Ukraine want to join the EU then |  | | |
| I see Russia have at last suggested something on 11:08 - Mar 8 with 1225 views | Darth_Koont |
| I see Russia have at last suggested something on 11:06 - Mar 8 by BloomBlue |
And they will again in 2 or 3 years if we stop the bombing now and Ukraine want to join the EU then |
I’ll repeat: Russia are bombing them now.
And none of these points are going to be worked out on the battlefield. | |
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| I see Russia have at last suggested something on 11:09 - Mar 8 with 1216 views | giant_stow |
| I see Russia have at last suggested something on 10:30 - Mar 8 by hype313 |
Saw this comment the other day and have to say, there is no ideal outcome but this is as best as it can get.
"Okay, Putin is bad... very very bad. We get it. We all agree.
There is now a genuine question of what Ukraine and the West would accept or want.
The temptation I've seen is to keep a foot on Putin's head until he stops squirming. Sounds nice. From an armchair far away. The only issue with that is the next 10-20-50? thousand that are killed to assuage our discontent at Putin and the 1m, 2m? 5m? who are made homeless and face terrorising trips into the abyss, potentially destabilising other parts of Europe. (And of course, at any moment, we are two steps away from a crisis 10-10,000 times greater so long as this continues).
Gordon Brown wants a Nuremburg rerun. As for me, I'd like a big pixie to appear above Putin and drown him in syrup. Seems we both want things that we won't get... So what can we get?
Putin has proposed terms for "peace". Trust him - of course not - but to build on the proposal, it is not a stretch that the war couldn't be ended by granting autonomy in the East and recognising Crimea, while protecting Ukraine with a UN peacekeeping force.
And then - the war really starts for the West: this is the 3-5 year plan to weaken Putin. Nobody says sanctions need to stop. Indeed they don't. Meanwhile, Russia must watch as their Ukranian neighbours become prosperous. The forces that pulled down the Berlin Wall were not rhetoric or ideology or mystical imperialist dreams, but basic envy that the East Germans felt toward the West for their prosperity, and the parallel resentment they felt towards their own leaders, whose oppressive system held them back and stopped them living the lives they otherwise could.
The long term win for the West is a more affable partner in Russia and a prosperous Ukraine. The West need to now look 5-10 years away, beyond Putin" |
the 'westerners in armchairs' comment is obviously fair, but it does work both ways too: maybe its a little too easy for westerners to dismiss the losses and argue for peace at any cost too?
I'd also wonder how free Ukrainians would actually be in this peace? Without seeing the details of the offer, might it not look like occupation without an army? Would Ukraine be free to re-arm for instance? Would they be free to conduct their business in the global world? Not so sure.... |  |
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| I see Russia have at last suggested something on 11:15 - Mar 8 with 1207 views | blueasfook |
| I see Russia have at last suggested something on 21:15 - Mar 7 by jeera |
"Remember Russia promised to respect their sovereignty when they gave up nuclear weapons back in the 90s".
Mate, he assured the world publicly he wasn't going to invade Ukraine less than 3 weeks ago.
Everyone who has said he cannot be trusted on any level is right.
This has to be the beginning of the end for him, one way or another.
Even if, likely when, some appeasement is met, he cannot be allowed to get away with holding the planet to ransom on the threat of nuclear war.
It's insane if he isn't held in some way to account. You cannot just go around threatening to unleash nuclear war without consequences. |
Totally this. He seems to have adopted the belief that he can now act like a bully boy and shout "I've got nuclear weapons by the way" if anyone trys to deter him.
The world cant be held to ransom on such a threat. Having nuclear weapons is supposed to be a deterrent to stop other nations attacking you, not a licence to be an agressor. |  |
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| I see Russia have at last suggested something on 11:20 - Mar 8 with 1191 views | BloomBlue |
| I see Russia have at last suggested something on 11:08 - Mar 8 by Darth_Koont |
I’ll repeat: Russia are bombing them now.
And none of these points are going to be worked out on the battlefield. |
Yes and they did lots of talking before they went into Ukraine, Russia even said it wouldn't invade Ukraine, we're only on a battlefield because Russia started it, even though they said they wouldn't
The fact is the world cannot trust Putin but apparently some think he will suddenly change. He will never stop until you can destroy his military and/or economy. and then he will be forced to the table. | | | |
| I see Russia have at last suggested something on 11:28 - Mar 8 with 1162 views | GlasgowBlue |
| I see Russia have at last suggested something on 10:55 - Mar 8 by Darth_Koont |
Yawn.
A point you surely made when we let Putin get on with Chechnya or taking Crimea? ‘Course not, you’re as inconsistent as you are bluntly clueless. |
Neat swerve.
Now explain how this is any different than appeasement when Hitler annexed the Sudetenland? |  |
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| I see Russia have at last suggested something on 11:29 - Mar 8 with 1160 views | Darth_Koont |
| I see Russia have at last suggested something on 11:20 - Mar 8 by BloomBlue |
Yes and they did lots of talking before they went into Ukraine, Russia even said it wouldn't invade Ukraine, we're only on a battlefield because Russia started it, even though they said they wouldn't
The fact is the world cannot trust Putin but apparently some think he will suddenly change. He will never stop until you can destroy his military and/or economy. and then he will be forced to the table. |
I think that’s a pretty nihilistic and overly cynical view. But if that is true, what have we been doing over the past decade or more?
I think we’ve been so sure of our own safety under NATO that we’ve not really looked to contain and disrupt Putin nearly enough. Hopefully that is changing now and will be the case going forward. That’s a world where we can use negotiation as a weapon and help the Ukrainians, as opposed to whatever it is we thought we were doing before. | |
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| I see Russia have at last suggested something on 11:38 - Mar 8 with 1137 views | Darth_Koont |
| I see Russia have at last suggested something on 11:28 - Mar 8 by GlasgowBlue |
Neat swerve.
Now explain how this is any different than appeasement when Hitler annexed the Sudetenland? |
The context is out of whack. Sudetenland = Crimea for starters re: the ethnic population.
Also, Putin isn’t Hitler and this isn’t 1938. We have learnt more over the last 80-odd years and we have different measures we can use: globally agreed sanctions for starters. But also that propaganda can’t survive too long and we have the opportunity to influence the Russian people.
And we don’t have our own military bloc that is neutralised by the opposition’s nuclear deterrent. So we can’t actively do anything anyway.
You have to look at the situation realistically and objectively. Maybe take the high-horsing Hitler stuff somewhere else like Facebook? | |
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| I see Russia have at last suggested something on 11:59 - Mar 8 with 1072 views | itfcjoe |
| I see Russia have at last suggested something on 06:30 - Mar 8 by GlasgowBlue |
Another hot take.
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I wonder how he'd feel if it was suggested the Palestinians should just cede to Israel to end the bloodhsed |  |
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| I see Russia have at last suggested something on 12:04 - Mar 8 with 1058 views | Darth_Koont |
| I see Russia have at last suggested something on 11:59 - Mar 8 by itfcjoe |
I wonder how he'd feel if it was suggested the Palestinians should just cede to Israel to end the bloodhsed |
That is the status quo suggestion now. But without any support of the Palestinians to negotiate a peaceful, just settlement and come out to bat for them with sanctions against Israel.
It’s different with Ukraine, however hypocritical and repugnant that is. We’ll be there for them rather than arming and supporting the aggressor. | |
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| I see Russia have at last suggested something on 14:31 - Mar 8 with 934 views | ZXBlue |
| I see Russia have at last suggested something on 11:38 - Mar 8 by Darth_Koont |
The context is out of whack. Sudetenland = Crimea for starters re: the ethnic population.
Also, Putin isn’t Hitler and this isn’t 1938. We have learnt more over the last 80-odd years and we have different measures we can use: globally agreed sanctions for starters. But also that propaganda can’t survive too long and we have the opportunity to influence the Russian people.
And we don’t have our own military bloc that is neutralised by the opposition’s nuclear deterrent. So we can’t actively do anything anyway.
You have to look at the situation realistically and objectively. Maybe take the high-horsing Hitler stuff somewhere else like Facebook? |
Unfortunately there are stark similarities which should not be lightly shrugged off.
On a connected note, what possible resolution by negotiation currently exists? Self determination for a region might be a reasonable expectation, but it is not possible in the real world because there could be no free and fair vote. |  | | |
| I see Russia have at last suggested something on 14:46 - Mar 8 with 921 views | Darth_Koont |
| I see Russia have at last suggested something on 14:31 - Mar 8 by ZXBlue |
Unfortunately there are stark similarities which should not be lightly shrugged off.
On a connected note, what possible resolution by negotiation currently exists? Self determination for a region might be a reasonable expectation, but it is not possible in the real world because there could be no free and fair vote. |
Go on then.
And I’ve said on this thread how a resolution with negotiation can happen. While we can do very little now anyway. And while more and more people are dying and the chance of de-escalation and having some real influence sails off into the distance. | |
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| I see Russia have at last suggested something on 14:48 - Mar 8 with 910 views | ZXBlue |
| I see Russia have at last suggested something on 14:46 - Mar 8 by Darth_Koont |
Go on then.
And I’ve said on this thread how a resolution with negotiation can happen. While we can do very little now anyway. And while more and more people are dying and the chance of de-escalation and having some real influence sails off into the distance. |
I've not seen you suggest anything viable at all. | | | |
| I see Russia have at last suggested something on 14:57 - Mar 8 with 893 views | Darth_Koont |
| I see Russia have at last suggested something on 14:48 - Mar 8 by ZXBlue |
I've not seen you suggest anything viable at all. |
What, that the 3 areas of the Crimea, the eastern regions and NATO are already pretty much lost to the Ukrainians? And asking for military help or NFZ is a dead-end? We should be helping the Ukrainians how we can.
I agree that things like “demilitarization” and how we protect the Ukrainians longer term needs to be resolved but that’s where the negotiations come in and where we actually can affect it with sanctions and other political pressure.
Now try again with those “stark similarities” with the Sudetenland that should be teaching us in 2022. And try not to prove you and others missed that boat with Crimea in 2014. [Post edited 8 Mar 2022 14:58]
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| I see Russia have at last suggested something on 15:05 - Mar 8 with 875 views | Blueschev |
| I see Russia have at last suggested something on 11:59 - Mar 8 by itfcjoe |
I wonder how he'd feel if it was suggested the Palestinians should just cede to Israel to end the bloodhsed |
That is, in reality, western foreign policy towards Israel / Palestine. |  | | |
| I see Russia have at last suggested something on 15:10 - Mar 8 with 858 views | Darth_Koont |
| I see Russia have at last suggested something on 15:05 - Mar 8 by Blueschev |
That is, in reality, western foreign policy towards Israel / Palestine. |
Indeed.
Good luck with getting that to sink in. | |
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| I see Russia have at last suggested something on 15:28 - Mar 8 with 823 views | positivity |
| I see Russia have at last suggested something on 15:10 - Mar 8 by Darth_Koont |
Indeed.
Good luck with getting that to sink in. |
indeed, so why criticise one (palestine-israel) and suggest the other is acceptable (ukraine-russia)? | |
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| I see Russia have at last suggested something on 15:38 - Mar 8 with 800 views | ZXBlue |
| I see Russia have at last suggested something on 14:57 - Mar 8 by Darth_Koont |
What, that the 3 areas of the Crimea, the eastern regions and NATO are already pretty much lost to the Ukrainians? And asking for military help or NFZ is a dead-end? We should be helping the Ukrainians how we can.
I agree that things like “demilitarization” and how we protect the Ukrainians longer term needs to be resolved but that’s where the negotiations come in and where we actually can affect it with sanctions and other political pressure.
Now try again with those “stark similarities” with the Sudetenland that should be teaching us in 2022. And try not to prove you and others missed that boat with Crimea in 2014. [Post edited 8 Mar 2022 14:58]
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When you say already lost, you mean occupied. And if that stands it will not end there. If you could have genuine self determination for those areas that could be the basis for discussion. But that is not what putin seeks and is not physically possible.
If you are not aware Iof the stark parallels to be drawn with hitlers actions and beliefs about his nations place and entitlements, you need to read more. | | | |
| I see Russia have at last suggested something on 15:38 - Mar 8 with 800 views | Darth_Koont |
| I see Russia have at last suggested something on 15:28 - Mar 8 by positivity |
indeed, so why criticise one (palestine-israel) and suggest the other is acceptable (ukraine-russia)? |
I said this above.
It’s one thing to say to the Ukrainians that they should look for a peaceful resolution as early as possible and we’ll back them all the way with sanctions.
It’s entirely another to turn a blind eye to the Palestinians supposedly because they are resisting, not back them with sanctions or even words, and in fact arm and support the aggressor.
On a related note, we just passed a law in February to stop local authorities being able to use their pension funds as part of the BDS protest against Israel. Now, suddenly, we want to row back on that because we want local authorities to boycott and divest from Russian companies and investments. What sort of people can see the world and different people like this? | |
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| I see Russia have at last suggested something on 15:48 - Mar 8 with 778 views | positivity |
| I see Russia have at last suggested something on 15:38 - Mar 8 by Darth_Koont |
I said this above.
It’s one thing to say to the Ukrainians that they should look for a peaceful resolution as early as possible and we’ll back them all the way with sanctions.
It’s entirely another to turn a blind eye to the Palestinians supposedly because they are resisting, not back them with sanctions or even words, and in fact arm and support the aggressor.
On a related note, we just passed a law in February to stop local authorities being able to use their pension funds as part of the BDS protest against Israel. Now, suddenly, we want to row back on that because we want local authorities to boycott and divest from Russian companies and investments. What sort of people can see the world and different people like this? |
so do you think we should push palestine into ceding their territory to israel to gain peace?
in return we can remove the (limited) sanctions we have against israel | |
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| I see Russia have at last suggested something on 15:59 - Mar 8 with 762 views | Darth_Koont |
| I see Russia have at last suggested something on 15:38 - Mar 8 by ZXBlue |
When you say already lost, you mean occupied. And if that stands it will not end there. If you could have genuine self determination for those areas that could be the basis for discussion. But that is not what putin seeks and is not physically possible.
If you are not aware Iof the stark parallels to be drawn with hitlers actions and beliefs about his nations place and entitlements, you need to read more. |
Lost or occupied, either way they’re not coming back to Ukraine without much more fighting and even then fairly unlikely.
“It will not end there” is a problematic statement though. And I think this is why you can slip into the facile Sudetenland stuff because you’ve imagined the next Hitler and Third Reich with all its evil bells and whistles. Not in Crimea in 2014 though which is again problematic.
But let’s say you’re right. What do we and the Ukrainians do now? Escalate or de-escalate? | |
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| I see Russia have at last suggested something on 16:04 - Mar 8 with 747 views | Darth_Koont |
| I see Russia have at last suggested something on 15:48 - Mar 8 by positivity |
so do you think we should push palestine into ceding their territory to israel to gain peace?
in return we can remove the (limited) sanctions we have against israel |
As the possibility of a two-state solution has been all but destroyed over the last decade (with our tacit support) then probably yes. It’s going to have to be one state from here on out – and not one with apartheid for the Palestinians either.
But we’re not going to do anything to support a peaceful and just resolution so academic even talking about it. [Post edited 8 Mar 2022 16:06]
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| I see Russia have at last suggested something on 16:22 - Mar 8 with 720 views | positivity |
| I see Russia have at last suggested something on 16:04 - Mar 8 by Darth_Koont |
As the possibility of a two-state solution has been all but destroyed over the last decade (with our tacit support) then probably yes. It’s going to have to be one state from here on out – and not one with apartheid for the Palestinians either.
But we’re not going to do anything to support a peaceful and just resolution so academic even talking about it. [Post edited 8 Mar 2022 16:06]
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i disagree, that'd be rewarding israel for their aggression.
israel are as likely to be treat palestinians fairly in an israeli-run west bank as putin is to treat ukrainians fairly if he's gifted luhansk or mariupol | |
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