| In other good news 11:47 - Mar 16 with 2846 views | Guthrum |
Both sides reporting significant movement on Russia-Ukraine peace talks. Mention of international security guarantees to prevent future attack. |  |
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| In other good news on 11:49 - Mar 16 with 1642 views | bluelagos |
Defo sounds positive doesn't it.
Fingers crossed they get to a stage asap where they can order a ceasefire then hopefully a full agreement follows quickly. |  |
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| In other good news on 11:51 - Mar 16 with 1619 views | Keno |
Hurrah, Phew and fingers crossed!! |  |
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| In other good news on 11:52 - Mar 16 with 1630 views | homer_123 |
That's great and don't get me wrong, much needed.
I wonder though if this means the Ukraine giving up the parts of its country that Russia now occupies? |  |
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| In other good news on 11:55 - Mar 16 with 1607 views | Guthrum |
| In other good news on 11:52 - Mar 16 by homer_123 |
That's great and don't get me wrong, much needed.
I wonder though if this means the Ukraine giving up the parts of its country that Russia now occupies? |
Nothing reported on that yet. But Zelensky has publicly acknowleged in the last day or so there's no chance of Ukraine joining NATO.
Suggestions are that an Austrian-style constitutional neutrality may be what's on the table. With a military permitted and international guarantees, but no foreign troops stationed there. [Post edited 16 Mar 2022 11:59]
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| In other good news on 12:10 - Mar 16 with 1564 views | Wacko |
| In other good news on 11:55 - Mar 16 by Guthrum |
Nothing reported on that yet. But Zelensky has publicly acknowleged in the last day or so there's no chance of Ukraine joining NATO.
Suggestions are that an Austrian-style constitutional neutrality may be what's on the table. With a military permitted and international guarantees, but no foreign troops stationed there. [Post edited 16 Mar 2022 11:59]
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So like I said should have been proposed... and got pelters for from many on here. Shame it's taken two weeks of bloodshed to get to here :(
Edit: nearly three weeks [Post edited 16 Mar 2022 12:12]
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| In other good news on 12:11 - Mar 16 with 1545 views | Illinoisblue |
| In other good news on 12:10 - Mar 16 by Wacko |
So like I said should have been proposed... and got pelters for from many on here. Shame it's taken two weeks of bloodshed to get to here :(
Edit: nearly three weeks [Post edited 16 Mar 2022 12:12]
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Indeed. When will world leaders start listening to TWTD? |  |
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| In other good news on 12:18 - Mar 16 with 1513 views | EdwardStone |
| In other good news on 11:55 - Mar 16 by Guthrum |
Nothing reported on that yet. But Zelensky has publicly acknowleged in the last day or so there's no chance of Ukraine joining NATO.
Suggestions are that an Austrian-style constitutional neutrality may be what's on the table. With a military permitted and international guarantees, but no foreign troops stationed there. [Post edited 16 Mar 2022 11:59]
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John Simpson said that Zelenskiy repeatedly asking for a Nato "No Fly Zone" was a piece of genius
Nato were always going to refuse, so Zelenskiy can now diss Nato as being useless/ flaky and there is no point in Ukraine wanting to join
This gives Putin a tokenistic "victory" that he can use to spare his blushes and hopefully withdraw his forces
15 years down the line, post Putin, Ukraine joins Nato |  | | |
| In other good news on 12:21 - Mar 16 with 1482 views | Fixed_It |
| In other good news on 12:11 - Mar 16 by Illinoisblue |
Indeed. When will world leaders start listening to TWTD? |
Thankfully, they haven't got Wacko on ignore! |  |
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| In other good news on 12:21 - Mar 16 with 1480 views | Ryorry |
| In other good news on 12:11 - Mar 16 by Illinoisblue |
Indeed. When will world leaders start listening to TWTD? |
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| In other good news on 12:21 - Mar 16 with 1491 views | Wacko |
| In other good news on 12:11 - Mar 16 by Illinoisblue |
Indeed. When will world leaders start listening to TWTD? |
Lots of other people far more knowledgeable than me were posting this on other channels.
Shame your pride gets in the way of giving credit where it's due and instead resorts to making facetious jibes. But I guess the inability of men to deal with shame is the cause of all the world's problems, including the one going on in Ukraine | |
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| In other good news on 12:22 - Mar 16 with 1466 views | Guthrum |
| In other good news on 12:10 - Mar 16 by Wacko |
So like I said should have been proposed... and got pelters for from many on here. Shame it's taken two weeks of bloodshed to get to here :(
Edit: nearly three weeks [Post edited 16 Mar 2022 12:12]
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The Russians had no right or justification to invade unprovoked a sovreign nation to force that outcome.
If Moscow wanted Ukrainian neutrality, they should have negotiated with Kyiv for it, rather than making demands backed by threats and, ultimately, a military assault. It was and is up to Ukraine alone to concede on any of those points. Not NATO, not the West.
There was plenty of diplomacy on offer before February 24th. All ignored by Putin. He's lost possibly thousands of Russian lives and damaged his economy for something he could have had by talking. [Post edited 16 Mar 2022 12:25]
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| In other good news on 12:23 - Mar 16 with 1444 views | Fixed_It |
| In other good news on 12:21 - Mar 16 by Wacko |
Lots of other people far more knowledgeable than me were posting this on other channels.
Shame your pride gets in the way of giving credit where it's due and instead resorts to making facetious jibes. But I guess the inability of men to deal with shame is the cause of all the world's problems, including the one going on in Ukraine |
WTF?! | |
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| In other good news on 12:24 - Mar 16 with 1436 views | Ryorry |
| In other good news on 12:21 - Mar 16 by Wacko |
Lots of other people far more knowledgeable than me were posting this on other channels.
Shame your pride gets in the way of giving credit where it's due and instead resorts to making facetious jibes. But I guess the inability of men to deal with shame is the cause of all the world's problems, including the one going on in Ukraine |
I might be wrong, but I think he was joking ... | |
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| In other good news on 12:25 - Mar 16 with 1415 views | Wacko |
| In other good news on 12:24 - Mar 16 by Ryorry |
I might be wrong, but I think he was joking ... |
Yes he was. But it was a facetious jibe. And I gave one back | |
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| In other good news on 12:26 - Mar 16 with 1414 views | Illinoisblue |
| In other good news on 12:21 - Mar 16 by Wacko |
Lots of other people far more knowledgeable than me were posting this on other channels.
Shame your pride gets in the way of giving credit where it's due and instead resorts to making facetious jibes. But I guess the inability of men to deal with shame is the cause of all the world's problems, including the one going on in Ukraine |
There’s a lot packed in to that reply. I don’t quite know where to begin. | |
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| In other good news on 12:28 - Mar 16 with 1405 views | BlueBadger |
| In other good news on 12:10 - Mar 16 by Wacko |
So like I said should have been proposed... and got pelters for from many on here. Shame it's taken two weeks of bloodshed to get to here :(
Edit: nearly three weeks [Post edited 16 Mar 2022 12:12]
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Yeah, but you were using that as a justification for Russia invading a sovreign nation though. |  |
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| In other good news on 12:30 - Mar 16 with 1401 views | Wacko |
| In other good news on 12:22 - Mar 16 by Guthrum |
The Russians had no right or justification to invade unprovoked a sovreign nation to force that outcome.
If Moscow wanted Ukrainian neutrality, they should have negotiated with Kyiv for it, rather than making demands backed by threats and, ultimately, a military assault. It was and is up to Ukraine alone to concede on any of those points. Not NATO, not the West.
There was plenty of diplomacy on offer before February 24th. All ignored by Putin. He's lost possibly thousands of Russian lives and damaged his economy for something he could have had by talking. [Post edited 16 Mar 2022 12:25]
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You're right, the method in which Russia forced this is wrong, and not once did I agree with that.
But your argument previously (and that of others far less eloquent and informed) was that Putin is a maniac and would never agree to this, and that even negotiating with him was tantamount to betrayal of any morals. If what you said in your previous post materialises, then all the arguments made against me last time will be proved to be wrong. Would be nice to get some acknowledgement of that, if that indeed happens. | |
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| In other good news on 12:33 - Mar 16 with 1375 views | Mookamoo |
| In other good news on 11:55 - Mar 16 by Guthrum |
Nothing reported on that yet. But Zelensky has publicly acknowleged in the last day or so there's no chance of Ukraine joining NATO.
Suggestions are that an Austrian-style constitutional neutrality may be what's on the table. With a military permitted and international guarantees, but no foreign troops stationed there. [Post edited 16 Mar 2022 11:59]
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Will be interesting if they redraw the borders so Russia incorporate Donetsk and Luhansk, the supposed independent states, or even go for the whole of South East Ukraine and join up with Crimea.
My guess id they will allow Donetsk and Luhansk the choice, knowing full well they will side with Russia. Everyone gets to stand down as it will be democratic, or at least seen to be. |  | | |
| In other good news on 12:34 - Mar 16 with 1361 views | Wacko |
| In other good news on 12:28 - Mar 16 by BlueBadger |
Yeah, but you were using that as a justification for Russia invading a sovreign nation though. |
That's precisely what I wasn't doing. I must have said about 10 times that there was no justification for what Putin was doing.
The thing people were getting pissed off about (I assume in the heat of the moment) was that I was advocating giving in to a bully - albeit very reluctantly. I don't think people on here realised how big and powerful this bully was | |
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| In other good news on 12:36 - Mar 16 with 1341 views | giant_stow |
| In other good news on 12:30 - Mar 16 by Wacko |
You're right, the method in which Russia forced this is wrong, and not once did I agree with that.
But your argument previously (and that of others far less eloquent and informed) was that Putin is a maniac and would never agree to this, and that even negotiating with him was tantamount to betrayal of any morals. If what you said in your previous post materialises, then all the arguments made against me last time will be proved to be wrong. Would be nice to get some acknowledgement of that, if that indeed happens. |
"Putin is a maniac and would never agree to this, and that even negotiating with him was tantamount to betrayal of any morals."
Not sure anyone said that here or elsewhere. But well done you all the same - heres a biscuit:
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| In other good news on 12:39 - Mar 16 with 1318 views | Rob88 |
| In other good news on 12:30 - Mar 16 by Wacko |
You're right, the method in which Russia forced this is wrong, and not once did I agree with that.
But your argument previously (and that of others far less eloquent and informed) was that Putin is a maniac and would never agree to this, and that even negotiating with him was tantamount to betrayal of any morals. If what you said in your previous post materialises, then all the arguments made against me last time will be proved to be wrong. Would be nice to get some acknowledgement of that, if that indeed happens. |
The problem with agreements is that they can be breached, like when Russia invaded Ukraine. | | | |
| In other good news on 12:42 - Mar 16 with 1318 views | bluelagos |
| In other good news on 12:34 - Mar 16 by Wacko |
That's precisely what I wasn't doing. I must have said about 10 times that there was no justification for what Putin was doing.
The thing people were getting pissed off about (I assume in the heat of the moment) was that I was advocating giving in to a bully - albeit very reluctantly. I don't think people on here realised how big and powerful this bully was |
And you still think for a minute said outlined agreement (if it happens) would have been available 3 weeks ago?
It is precisely because the Ukrainians have stood up to said bully - that there is now a realistic prospect of an agreement.
Putin has realised there is no easy military win here - 3 weeks ago he thought there was. | |
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| In other good news on 12:45 - Mar 16 with 1263 views | Wacko |
| In other good news on 12:36 - Mar 16 by giant_stow |
"Putin is a maniac and would never agree to this, and that even negotiating with him was tantamount to betrayal of any morals."
Not sure anyone said that here or elsewhere. But well done you all the same - heres a biscuit:
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This was the initial argument from Guthrum that pretty much said exactly that (in far more considered terms - I was more paraphrasing the others with lesser linguistc / cognitive abilities):
Putin declares war. by Guthrum 24 Feb 2022 8:23That argument might hold some water if Putin had tried to seriously negotiate, rather than making extraordinary and inflexible demands, then launching an entirely premeditated assault on a sovreign country upon the flimsiest of pretexts, causing unnecessary deaths (perhaps thousands of them, by the time this is over) and implicitly threatening to use weapons of mass destruction on anyone who interferes.
That's not the way a sane, rational statesman behaves. It is, however, characteristic of a warmonger who resorts to force in the first instance.
And a fool. This is likely to have consequences exactly the opposite of increasing Russian security. Sanctions, diplomatic opposition, an increased military buildup on the eastern borders of NATO, formerly neutral countries like Sweden and Finland seeking to join (for their own security, particularly the latter).
The bitterest irony is that it is unlikely Ukraine could have achieved NATO membership any time soon, even if the application had progressed beyong the "gentle feelers" stage.
I really don't know why you have to wade in with patronising jibes when people on here are trying to have an intellectual debate. | |
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| In other good news on 12:48 - Mar 16 with 1261 views | Guthrum |
| In other good news on 12:30 - Mar 16 by Wacko |
You're right, the method in which Russia forced this is wrong, and not once did I agree with that.
But your argument previously (and that of others far less eloquent and informed) was that Putin is a maniac and would never agree to this, and that even negotiating with him was tantamount to betrayal of any morals. If what you said in your previous post materialises, then all the arguments made against me last time will be proved to be wrong. Would be nice to get some acknowledgement of that, if that indeed happens. |
He didn't agree to anything. Rather than trying to make a negotiated settlement (c.f. the lies to Macron), he launched a violent assault upon Ukraine. It's taken stalemate on the battlefield and massive economic sanctions to force Putin to the negotiating table.
Depending upon what territorial concessions may be involved, Putin has achieved far short of his war aims as outlined in that rant on the eve of invasion and since. Specifically regime change in Kyiv.
I never suggested that negotiation was a bad idea. Plenty could have been done to restore some of the mutual East-West security guarantees which have been allowed to lapse over the last two decades, if Putin had wanted. But we in the West had no right to make unilateral concessions on Ukraine's behalf (i.e. barring them from ever joining NATO). No would that have been wise, simply acceding to demands and threats from Moscow. | |
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| In other good news on 12:49 - Mar 16 with 1250 views | Darth_Koont |
Fingers crossed.
It was probably always going to get here given the lack of an end-game or easy out for either Russia or Ukraine.
The hard work will then start to ensure a lasting and fair peace (and contain Putin a lot better), but at least people wouldn’t be dying. |  |
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