| Ukraine dismemberment 08:31 - Apr 17 with 1107 views | Churchman |
There is an interesting article from todays Guardian
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2022/apr/17/nato-should-talk-less-and-
It basically highlights western countries fiddling while Rome (Ukraine) burns. Dismembered piece by piece all on tv as long as it doesn’t get in the way of Eastenders. Hand wringing, empty promises and words, or in Johnson’s case lies. Weakness and confusion in the face of the strongman.
What can the west, particularly the US, do? A lot more than it has. Putin will have to be faced one day. It’s not a question of if, but when. Hopefully when he is, it’ll be with people stronger than the current political nobodies. |  | | |  |
| Ukraine dismemberment on 08:43 - Apr 17 with 1057 views | BanksterDebtSlave |
I strongly suspect that the West's unspoken strategy is to hope Putin settles for taking the whole Donbas region and then return to global trading Nirvana. Good luck with that. |  |
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| Ukraine dismemberment on 09:05 - Apr 17 with 1021 views | TractorWood |
The war is going poorly for Putin. The economic sanctions were stronger and faster than he thought. His military gains were slower and more arduous.
He's already heading east to try to focus on the originally disputed areas. If he can annex a bit of turf, he can package that up as a liberation internally and still save some face.
The West can't intervene a lot more than it has as one it's seemingly going poorly for Russia and two any material intervention is very likely to lead to nuclear war. |  |
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| Ukraine dismemberment on 09:17 - Apr 17 with 999 views | pointofblue |
| Ukraine dismemberment on 09:05 - Apr 17 by TractorWood |
The war is going poorly for Putin. The economic sanctions were stronger and faster than he thought. His military gains were slower and more arduous.
He's already heading east to try to focus on the originally disputed areas. If he can annex a bit of turf, he can package that up as a liberation internally and still save some face.
The West can't intervene a lot more than it has as one it's seemingly going poorly for Russia and two any material intervention is very likely to lead to nuclear war. |
Militarily the West are treading a very fine tightrope, attempting to protect Ukraine whilst not prodding Russia, or more specifically Putin, into a position where he feels he has nothing to lose and takes the nuclear option. Russia has already made it clear that they’d see the transfer of offensive hardware to Ukraine as a threat to themselves and that’s the point that they say Russian law permits the use of nuclear weapons. So the West, for the moment, supplies defensive equipment only and is hoping it’s enough.
Sanctions are different. It’s ironic that tone deafness over climate change has led to this; if countries had acted sooner on home grown sustainable, renewable energy then they wouldn’t be wringing their hands over Russian oil. I think the weakness of one side’s position is clear to see - despite the threat to turn off the pipes if payments were not made in roubles, I believe fuel is still being delivered from Russia to the West. Which side has backed down? |  |
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| Ukraine dismemberment on 09:27 - Apr 17 with 985 views | Radlett_blue |
| Ukraine dismemberment on 09:17 - Apr 17 by pointofblue |
Militarily the West are treading a very fine tightrope, attempting to protect Ukraine whilst not prodding Russia, or more specifically Putin, into a position where he feels he has nothing to lose and takes the nuclear option. Russia has already made it clear that they’d see the transfer of offensive hardware to Ukraine as a threat to themselves and that’s the point that they say Russian law permits the use of nuclear weapons. So the West, for the moment, supplies defensive equipment only and is hoping it’s enough.
Sanctions are different. It’s ironic that tone deafness over climate change has led to this; if countries had acted sooner on home grown sustainable, renewable energy then they wouldn’t be wringing their hands over Russian oil. I think the weakness of one side’s position is clear to see - despite the threat to turn off the pipes if payments were not made in roubles, I believe fuel is still being delivered from Russia to the West. Which side has backed down? |
Do you include nuclear energy as one of the options that the West should have invested in, like France?
If you seriously think that sustainable, renewables could have replaced what we get from fossil fuels, I would like to see the basis of your calculation and the cost. The UK still gets 73% of its energy from oil & gas. |  |
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| Ukraine dismemberment on 09:33 - Apr 17 with 981 views | pointofblue |
| Ukraine dismemberment on 09:27 - Apr 17 by Radlett_blue |
Do you include nuclear energy as one of the options that the West should have invested in, like France?
If you seriously think that sustainable, renewables could have replaced what we get from fossil fuels, I would like to see the basis of your calculation and the cost. The UK still gets 73% of its energy from oil & gas. |
Unfortunately nuclear is probably something which should have been taken up to a greater extent. I can’t believe it’s taken so long to improve the efficiency and cost of proper renewables, though, | |
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| Ukraine dismemberment on 10:08 - Apr 17 with 931 views | Churchman |
| Ukraine dismemberment on 09:17 - Apr 17 by pointofblue |
Militarily the West are treading a very fine tightrope, attempting to protect Ukraine whilst not prodding Russia, or more specifically Putin, into a position where he feels he has nothing to lose and takes the nuclear option. Russia has already made it clear that they’d see the transfer of offensive hardware to Ukraine as a threat to themselves and that’s the point that they say Russian law permits the use of nuclear weapons. So the West, for the moment, supplies defensive equipment only and is hoping it’s enough.
Sanctions are different. It’s ironic that tone deafness over climate change has led to this; if countries had acted sooner on home grown sustainable, renewable energy then they wouldn’t be wringing their hands over Russian oil. I think the weakness of one side’s position is clear to see - despite the threat to turn off the pipes if payments were not made in roubles, I believe fuel is still being delivered from Russia to the West. Which side has backed down? |
I suspect payment to Russia is exactly as they want it, possibly through intermediaries. The Rouble's only marginally down on 9 month ago. People are buying roubles to pay for something.
Putin will not use nuclear weapons against NATO. It might well use tactical ones on Ukraine as a warning to the west. What’s to stop him? In fact the weaker the west’s response, and I agree with the Guardian writer - it’s been weak alright, the more likely he is to use them as a lesson and a warning.
As it goes, he is winning his little war. He’s gradually wearing Ukraine out bit by bit and since when did any Russian ruler care about casualties? Those poor Ukrainians. They didn’t ask for this.
You are right about dependence on fossil fuels. There has been far too much foot dragging on alternative sources of energy, not least because it’s not in the interests of multinational companies like Exxon, BP and Shell to do it. The problem is things like wind farms are costly and inefficient. Last year, ironically due to weather, U.K. renewable energy production actually fell. Batteries are inherently expensive and filled with toxic substances and not the answer. Solar panels? Every little helps.
Hydrogen? Well it’s a constituent part of water H2O) and the tech exists, but extraction is expensive. Scientists - like a Covid vaccine, this is your time to shine and it’s where research money needs to go in my view. Until then, nuclear has to be the solution. I hate the idea as it’s never felt right to bury waste down a hole in the ground but I see no alternative. | | | |
| Ukraine dismemberment on 13:30 - Apr 17 with 844 views | Leaky |
| Ukraine dismemberment on 09:27 - Apr 17 by Radlett_blue |
Do you include nuclear energy as one of the options that the West should have invested in, like France?
If you seriously think that sustainable, renewables could have replaced what we get from fossil fuels, I would like to see the basis of your calculation and the cost. The UK still gets 73% of its energy from oil & gas. |
I agree, however in a previous post Soloman accused me making an idiotic post when I challenged his statement that his electric car was totally emissions free. I made the point that all he was doing is moving his emissions to the power generators. |  | | |
| Ukraine dismemberment on 22:18 - Apr 17 with 691 views | factual_blue |
The trouble, or good fortune (depending on how you look at it) is that NATO is a defensive organisation. It can only act when and if a member is attacked.
What I'd be exploring is the means by which the members of the Five Eyes (Oz & NZ) who aren't members of NATO could be used to beef up supplying the Ukraine. Something along the lines of they supply gear to the Ukraine, GB and USA restock them. Trouble is I imagine neither have colossal stocks of weapons. |  |
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| Ukraine dismemberment on 22:21 - Apr 17 with 688 views | factual_blue |
| Ukraine dismemberment on 09:05 - Apr 17 by TractorWood |
The war is going poorly for Putin. The economic sanctions were stronger and faster than he thought. His military gains were slower and more arduous.
He's already heading east to try to focus on the originally disputed areas. If he can annex a bit of turf, he can package that up as a liberation internally and still save some face.
The West can't intervene a lot more than it has as one it's seemingly going poorly for Russia and two any material intervention is very likely to lead to nuclear war. |
That's pretty much it IMHO.
I'd like to see Russia punished for a long, long time after it all ends.
Their ostracisation must be a complete as it can without making them think, in the immortal words of Randy Newman:
'They all hate us anyhow
So let's drop the big one now.
Let's drop the big one now.' | |
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| Ukraine dismemberment on 09:59 - Apr 18 with 547 views | Radlett_blue |
| Ukraine dismemberment on 22:21 - Apr 17 by factual_blue |
That's pretty much it IMHO.
I'd like to see Russia punished for a long, long time after it all ends.
Their ostracisation must be a complete as it can without making them think, in the immortal words of Randy Newman:
'They all hate us anyhow
So let's drop the big one now.
Let's drop the big one now.' |
While sanctions right now are a sensible & probably effective weapon, if the Russian regime does change, it will be irrational to keep punishing their people for a regime about which they can do little. Clearly the West will remain suspicious or Russia for many years - a sort of New Cold War. | |
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| Ukraine dismemberment on 10:26 - Apr 18 with 515 views | Churchman |
| Ukraine dismemberment on 09:59 - Apr 18 by Radlett_blue |
While sanctions right now are a sensible & probably effective weapon, if the Russian regime does change, it will be irrational to keep punishing their people for a regime about which they can do little. Clearly the West will remain suspicious or Russia for many years - a sort of New Cold War. |
Sanctions are not particularly effective in my view. Putin hasn’t changed his stance one iota in the past few months. That’s the proof for me. But then with anything between 6 to 10 billion dollars a month rolling in from energy sales (40% to the west) why would he? Lots of tokenism from the west, not least from Germany where their economy comes first second and third.
Sadly, it will be the Russian people in the longer term that notice it, but my sympathy goes only so far to a people that back Putin to the point where he has to be the worlds best supported leader.
As for the west an£ Russia, I think the former will soon turn a blind eye to Putin and his successor, especially if he/she looks to be a bit less bonkers. Too many vested interests and opportunities for anyone to care for too long. In Johnson’s case, too much dirt to bury under the carpet too.
It’s interesting how this war is already slipping from the front pages and is only revived when the latest atrocity emerges or an obsolete old boat is sunk - or when the rump of what’s left of Ukraine surrenders. | | | |
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