| We have to stop kidding ourselves. 22:13 - May 4 with 1901 views | NthQldITFC |
Very good 'Costing the Earth' on Radio 4 tonight examining the conflict between the perception of progress towards sustainability in one of the 'most green' countries (Sweden) and the realities of the impact of expanding green industry on the vestiges of established forest and the traditional occupants, specifcally Sami reindeer herders.
The seemingly noble idea of using wood (biomass) for energy production under 'consultation' with the Sami was all very well until the state-run industry pushed beyond acceptable limits and then began to ignore the consultation process in the blinkered pursuit of their targets.
Intentions to produce 'green steel' using electrolytically produced hydrogen rather than coke are creating huge demands for electricity, which in theory can be 'green', but in practice is creating unsustainable demand on that environment.
As the Sami herder at the end said, "Green industry is still industry" - the superficially well-intentioned policies in that region are crushing the established people and ecosystem, and the so-called green industries are still profit-led, murderous monsters.
As another of the interviewees said "When will enough be enough?" - will we look for nice 'green' ways to take more and more from the Earth and smugly convince ourselves that because in theory an industry can be green, then on the balance sheet we can ignore the actual effects of that industry, which are NEVER REMOTELY AS GREEN as the theory might suggest.
Government and industry are still 'growth-led' and will keep doing their thing. The only hopes are for us as individuals on behalf of our children and the future, to radically reduce demand. So for fcks sake think again every time you decide to build an extension, or buy a bigger telly, or a bigger 'safer' car, or fly to France for a football match.
The idea of technical solutions to impending environmental catastrophe without a radical reduction in what all of us consume, is frankly a load of ballocks, and it's our kids and grandkids that will pay the price.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/sounds/play/m0016xjt [Post edited 4 May 2022 22:14]
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| # WE ARE STEALING THE FUTURE FROM OUR CHILDREN --- WE MUST CHANGE COURSE # | | Poll: | It's driving me nuts |
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| We have to stop kidding ourselves. on 22:22 - May 4 with 1426 views | Edmundo |
And counsel your children to have less kids. That's my mantra. We need massive population decrease: the alternative to birth rate drop is famine, disease and war (and we've already got 2). |  |
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| We have to stop kidding ourselves. on 22:25 - May 4 with 1412 views | BanksterDebtSlave |
Well said....but mining asteroids or something! |  |
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| We have to stop kidding ourselves. on 22:25 - May 4 with 1419 views | J2BLUE |
People are not going to stop taking holidays, flying abroad for football matches or building extensions etc. Not by choice. Governments are not going impose these measures because they only care about power.
The fact is a lot of people talk a good game but they are unwilling to do anything about it. People are not going to make the sort of sacrifices required. |  |
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| We have to stop kidding ourselves. on 22:25 - May 4 with 1415 views | NthQldITFC |
| We have to stop kidding ourselves. on 22:22 - May 4 by Edmundo |
And counsel your children to have less kids. That's my mantra. We need massive population decrease: the alternative to birth rate drop is famine, disease and war (and we've already got 2). |
Oh yes, very much so. A touchy subject with many people obviously, but there's no room left for diplomacy when it comes to the blindingly obviously truth that environmental damage is a function of the product of population and 'standard of living', at best only slightly modified by the actual nett effect of technological fixes. | |
| # WE ARE STEALING THE FUTURE FROM OUR CHILDREN --- WE MUST CHANGE COURSE # | | Poll: | It's driving me nuts |
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| We have to stop kidding ourselves. on 22:26 - May 4 with 1402 views | NthQldITFC |
| We have to stop kidding ourselves. on 22:25 - May 4 by J2BLUE |
People are not going to stop taking holidays, flying abroad for football matches or building extensions etc. Not by choice. Governments are not going impose these measures because they only care about power.
The fact is a lot of people talk a good game but they are unwilling to do anything about it. People are not going to make the sort of sacrifices required. |
Therefore the various occupants of this planet are essentially on Death Row. | |
| # WE ARE STEALING THE FUTURE FROM OUR CHILDREN --- WE MUST CHANGE COURSE # | | Poll: | It's driving me nuts |
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| We have to stop kidding ourselves. on 22:28 - May 4 with 1396 views | BanksterDebtSlave |
| We have to stop kidding ourselves. on 22:25 - May 4 by J2BLUE |
People are not going to stop taking holidays, flying abroad for football matches or building extensions etc. Not by choice. Governments are not going impose these measures because they only care about power.
The fact is a lot of people talk a good game but they are unwilling to do anything about it. People are not going to make the sort of sacrifices required. |
You're having a laugh aren't you if you call those 'sacrifices!' | |
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| We have to stop kidding ourselves. on 22:28 - May 4 with 1391 views | HARRY10 |
| We have to stop kidding ourselves. on 22:22 - May 4 by Edmundo |
And counsel your children to have less kids. That's my mantra. We need massive population decrease: the alternative to birth rate drop is famine, disease and war (and we've already got 2). |
Not so
it's what they consume that is the problem
How much of the worlds resources are consumed by the average American with two kids, compared to someone in Africa with 4, or even six kids ? |  | | |
| We have to stop kidding ourselves. on 22:29 - May 4 with 1377 views | J2BLUE |
| We have to stop kidding ourselves. on 22:28 - May 4 by BanksterDebtSlave |
You're having a laugh aren't you if you call those 'sacrifices!' |
I think you've mixed two paragraphs there. | |
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| We have to stop kidding ourselves. on 22:33 - May 4 with 1345 views | BanksterDebtSlave |
| We have to stop kidding ourselves. on 22:29 - May 4 by J2BLUE |
I think you've mixed two paragraphs there. |
What sacrifices are you thinking of then? | |
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| We have to stop kidding ourselves. on 22:36 - May 4 with 1324 views | Edmundo |
| We have to stop kidding ourselves. on 22:28 - May 4 by HARRY10 |
Not so
it's what they consume that is the problem
How much of the worlds resources are consumed by the average American with two kids, compared to someone in Africa with 4, or even six kids ? |
Absolutely. But preferably those in the western world have 1 kid, and we let migration allow those in Africa to enjoy what we take for granted. Birth control in 3rd world countries won't touch this issue. | |
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| We have to stop kidding ourselves. on 22:40 - May 4 with 1304 views | J2BLUE |
| We have to stop kidding ourselves. on 22:33 - May 4 by BanksterDebtSlave |
What sacrifices are you thinking of then? |
Lots of different things.
For the individual: cutting meat and animal products down dramatically (almost to zero), driving far less, flying a maximum of once per year, stop buying cheap disposable crap, voting for genuine change and politicians who will drive positive change.
For the government: ban private jets, go after the biggest culprits with massive taxes, ban all political donations and have a set taxpayer funded budget, make working from home a mandatory option for any job which can be done from home.
And a whole lot more but that's off the top of my head. You? | |
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| We have to stop kidding ourselves. on 22:45 - May 4 with 1276 views | BanksterDebtSlave |
| We have to stop kidding ourselves. on 22:40 - May 4 by J2BLUE |
Lots of different things.
For the individual: cutting meat and animal products down dramatically (almost to zero), driving far less, flying a maximum of once per year, stop buying cheap disposable crap, voting for genuine change and politicians who will drive positive change.
For the government: ban private jets, go after the biggest culprits with massive taxes, ban all political donations and have a set taxpayer funded budget, make working from home a mandatory option for any job which can be done from home.
And a whole lot more but that's off the top of my head. You? |
Great list, gets my vote but where are the sacrifices?
Edit....sounds like you just need more faith in people. [Post edited 4 May 2022 22:46]
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| We have to stop kidding ourselves. on 22:46 - May 4 with 1274 views | jeera |
| We have to stop kidding ourselves. on 22:28 - May 4 by BanksterDebtSlave |
You're having a laugh aren't you if you call those 'sacrifices!' |
But those are things that are normal to many people.
I see these posts like the OP and agree in principle with almost every word.
I even agree with most of your stuff that verges on the saner side of madcap.
However, speak of individual change isn't enough. Change has to come at governmental level and international level.
The whole cultural ideal has to alter - our collective mindset - and it will, but it will take time. |  |
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| We have to stop kidding ourselves. on 22:50 - May 4 with 1237 views | BanksterDebtSlave |
| We have to stop kidding ourselves. on 22:46 - May 4 by jeera |
But those are things that are normal to many people.
I see these posts like the OP and agree in principle with almost every word.
I even agree with most of your stuff that verges on the saner side of madcap.
However, speak of individual change isn't enough. Change has to come at governmental level and international level.
The whole cultural ideal has to alter - our collective mindset - and it will, but it will take time. |
"I even agree with most of your stuff that verges on the saner side of madcap."
How very dare you!! Did you mean blue sky thinking? | |
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| We have to stop kidding ourselves. on 22:50 - May 4 with 1236 views | J2BLUE |
| We have to stop kidding ourselves. on 22:45 - May 4 by BanksterDebtSlave |
Great list, gets my vote but where are the sacrifices?
Edit....sounds like you just need more faith in people. [Post edited 4 May 2022 22:46]
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That is a stupid question. There's lot of talk on here about climate change. How many vegans and once a year maximum flyers are there? Nothing to do with faith in people. | |
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| We have to stop kidding ourselves. on 22:51 - May 4 with 1226 views | J2BLUE |
| We have to stop kidding ourselves. on 22:46 - May 4 by jeera |
But those are things that are normal to many people.
I see these posts like the OP and agree in principle with almost every word.
I even agree with most of your stuff that verges on the saner side of madcap.
However, speak of individual change isn't enough. Change has to come at governmental level and international level.
The whole cultural ideal has to alter - our collective mindset - and it will, but it will take time. |
Exactly, not difficult is it? | |
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| We have to stop kidding ourselves. on 22:51 - May 4 with 1226 views | jeera |
| We have to stop kidding ourselves. on 22:50 - May 4 by BanksterDebtSlave |
"I even agree with most of your stuff that verges on the saner side of madcap."
How very dare you!! Did you mean blue sky thinking? |
No, I steer well clear of your blue-sky thinking.
I meant the slightly more regular stuff. | |
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| We have to stop kidding ourselves. on 22:52 - May 4 with 1219 views | jeera |
| We have to stop kidding ourselves. on 22:51 - May 4 by J2BLUE |
Exactly, not difficult is it? |
See?
We are still friends. | |
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| We have to stop kidding ourselves. on 23:04 - May 4 with 1161 views | BanksterDebtSlave |
| We have to stop kidding ourselves. on 22:51 - May 4 by J2BLUE |
Exactly, not difficult is it? |
Governments do not work for the interests of people at an individual level so that would be a long wait. Fundamental change will be instigated at grass roots level and require a radical reset of failed institutions. | |
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| We have to stop kidding ourselves. on 23:06 - May 4 with 1156 views | NthQldITFC |
| We have to stop kidding ourselves. on 22:46 - May 4 by jeera |
But those are things that are normal to many people.
I see these posts like the OP and agree in principle with almost every word.
I even agree with most of your stuff that verges on the saner side of madcap.
However, speak of individual change isn't enough. Change has to come at governmental level and international level.
The whole cultural ideal has to alter - our collective mindset - and it will, but it will take time. |
To be honest, I don't have any meaningful degree of hope that change will come either from a collective public mindset change, or from governmental or business-driven imperatives, or the combination of all three. Your "it will take time" would be true if time was actually available, but all the evidence suggests that it is not.
I think we will see the fairly rapid collapse of society in conjunction with worse and more frequent climate change-driven events, and the collective mindset will only really change when we are in a state of semi-permanent survivalist wars on regional, national, corporate or tribal levels.
But while I don't have any meaningful degree of hope, an open mind dictates that there must always be the chance that one is completely wrong, and on that basis I think the most important thing is to keep the debate alive, in the hope that every bit of thinking that you can stimulate in younger, brighter and more energetic minds might be the bit that triggers a remarkable turning back from catastrophe. | |
| # WE ARE STEALING THE FUTURE FROM OUR CHILDREN --- WE MUST CHANGE COURSE # | | Poll: | It's driving me nuts |
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| We have to stop kidding ourselves. on 23:06 - May 4 with 1152 views | J2BLUE |
| We have to stop kidding ourselves. on 23:04 - May 4 by BanksterDebtSlave |
Governments do not work for the interests of people at an individual level so that would be a long wait. Fundamental change will be instigated at grass roots level and require a radical reset of failed institutions. |
I don't disagree. | |
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| We have to stop kidding ourselves. on 23:07 - May 4 with 1145 views | unstableblue |
Thanks for interesting post and will listen to the R4 content.
Through our work we are seeing already that the amount of money, even now, on climate resilience is going up at a significant rate. And my view is this will become exponential. And ultimately you and I will pay for it.
So it becomes quite simple - not focussing on and spending on climate and ecological damage limitation/remediation now, is incredibly misguided and frankly stupid. But the fractured nature of world societies, and the short political cycle, means it’s no surprise. I mean to be having a war, in 2022! Which is in its own right has a massive environmental impact - The embedded carbon to rebuild Ukraine, the energy to move millions of refugees back, etc etc.
I mean Boris announced an energy policy with no drive for home insulation, mind boggling. And a nuclear push! Nuclear just ramps up the CO2 massively in the build phase, claws it back in the operate and then ramps it back up in the dispose phase.
We all need to make changes in our lives, and to make green issues as big a demand on our politicians as we do health, education and financial/societal security.
When natural systems do start to fail and we get into another level of extreme weather. We will start to see a lot of migration, inequality and civil unrest. Time to take it more seriously.
https://www.imperial.ac.uk/stories/climate-action/ |  |
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| We have to stop kidding ourselves. on 23:16 - May 4 with 1113 views | jeera |
| We have to stop kidding ourselves. on 23:06 - May 4 by NthQldITFC |
To be honest, I don't have any meaningful degree of hope that change will come either from a collective public mindset change, or from governmental or business-driven imperatives, or the combination of all three. Your "it will take time" would be true if time was actually available, but all the evidence suggests that it is not.
I think we will see the fairly rapid collapse of society in conjunction with worse and more frequent climate change-driven events, and the collective mindset will only really change when we are in a state of semi-permanent survivalist wars on regional, national, corporate or tribal levels.
But while I don't have any meaningful degree of hope, an open mind dictates that there must always be the chance that one is completely wrong, and on that basis I think the most important thing is to keep the debate alive, in the hope that every bit of thinking that you can stimulate in younger, brighter and more energetic minds might be the bit that triggers a remarkable turning back from catastrophe. |
And again I agree with most of what you say.
I probably already qualify on yours and Banksters' scale of acceptability, possibly even more than you two yourselves!
But maybe not all so much through choice. Still counts though.
I sign anything and everything that comes my way, daily pretty much. So as far as petitioning goes that's all I am in a current position to do.
But realistically I maintain change has to come through laws and regulation. Sure, we can and should do our bit as it were, but let's not kid ourselves that that is in the current majority mindset.
We can preach, we can practice what we preach, but until people are told en masse that behaviour has to change and are faced with personal consequences that affect them in the here and now, it won't be enough. [Post edited 4 May 2022 23:24]
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| We have to stop kidding ourselves. on 23:23 - May 4 with 1089 views | Swansea_Blue |
Sounds right up Monbiot’s street, who says we have to abandon growth as the primary target if we’re ever going to get anywhere. He’s right of course, but people don’t want to hear that when their pension funds rely on growth and profit at any cost. |  |
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