| Labour ‘figures’ saying Starmer must resign 22:10 - May 6 with 9438 views | ElderGrizzly |
If fined for “beergate”
Assume this is Abbott and Corbyn then based on their comments and tweets the last few days
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| Labour ‘figures’ saying Starmer must resign on 18:49 - May 7 with 814 views | lowhouseblue |
| Labour ‘figures’ saying Starmer must resign on 18:23 - May 7 by ZXBlue |
It really isnt.
It was work. They ordered food in. After a late night, thats not unreasonable, especially as they were unlikely to be able to each invididually go out and eat somewhere. This is so desperate. |
it was definitely work. the nature of political campaigning etc is the people meet one to one, discuss and interact. it often involves food and drink. it is the nature of politics and the people who are involved in it. the informal stuff is just as critical as the formal stuff. people work varied hours and it isn't something you can do remotely. |  |
| And so as the loose-bowelled pigeon of time swoops low over the unsuspecting tourist of destiny, and the flatulent skunk of fate wanders into the air-conditioning system of eternity, I notice it's the end of the show |
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| Labour ‘figures’ saying Starmer must resign on 18:50 - May 7 with 809 views | ZXBlue |
| Labour ‘figures’ saying Starmer must resign on 18:36 - May 7 by marchy |
Well that's the thing isn't it, Starmer will now have to prove they carried on working and disregarded what the memo said, and he'll have known about the memo, so it doesn't help that it's now coming out of nowhere and looking like he's not being entirely open about the situation. |
No. He doesn;t need to do that.
Its absurd. |  | | |
| Labour ‘figures’ saying Starmer must resign on 19:11 - May 7 with 763 views | marchy |
| Labour ‘figures’ saying Starmer must resign on 18:49 - May 7 by lowhouseblue |
it was definitely work. the nature of political campaigning etc is the people meet one to one, discuss and interact. it often involves food and drink. it is the nature of politics and the people who are involved in it. the informal stuff is just as critical as the formal stuff. people work varied hours and it isn't something you can do remotely. |
No. Not good enough. That's equally true for a huge range of other occupations, not just politics, but nobody else got to do it.
It was a "‘dinner in Miners Hall with Mary Foy’". [Post edited 7 May 2022 19:14]
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| Labour ‘figures’ saying Starmer must resign on 19:12 - May 7 with 761 views | marchy |
| Labour ‘figures’ saying Starmer must resign on 18:50 - May 7 by ZXBlue |
No. He doesn;t need to do that.
Its absurd. |
Why is it?
I should reiterate, I am desperately hoping he's cleared of any wrongdoing here as it would be devastating for him to lose any moral edge over Johnson.
But why is it? | | | |
| Labour ‘figures’ saying Starmer must resign on 19:15 - May 7 with 749 views | ZXBlue |
| Labour ‘figures’ saying Starmer must resign on 19:12 - May 7 by marchy |
Why is it?
I should reiterate, I am desperately hoping he's cleared of any wrongdoing here as it would be devastating for him to lose any moral edge over Johnson.
But why is it? |
Because it is not for people to prove they are innocent.
And the evidence to the contrary is pathetic. | | | |
| Labour ‘figures’ saying Starmer must resign on 19:16 - May 7 with 744 views | lowhouseblue |
| Labour ‘figures’ saying Starmer must resign on 19:11 - May 7 by marchy |
No. Not good enough. That's equally true for a huge range of other occupations, not just politics, but nobody else got to do it.
It was a "‘dinner in Miners Hall with Mary Foy’". [Post edited 7 May 2022 19:14]
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it was a working dinner. | |
| And so as the loose-bowelled pigeon of time swoops low over the unsuspecting tourist of destiny, and the flatulent skunk of fate wanders into the air-conditioning system of eternity, I notice it's the end of the show |
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| Labour ‘figures’ saying Starmer must resign on 19:17 - May 7 with 742 views | marchy |
| Labour ‘figures’ saying Starmer must resign on 19:15 - May 7 by ZXBlue |
Because it is not for people to prove they are innocent.
And the evidence to the contrary is pathetic. |
Was the evidence against Johnson pathetic? | | | |
| Labour ‘figures’ saying Starmer must resign on 19:18 - May 7 with 734 views | ZXBlue |
| Labour ‘figures’ saying Starmer must resign on 19:17 - May 7 by marchy |
Was the evidence against Johnson pathetic? |
No. It was clear as day.
Party gatherings in theh flat, babysitters coming round for chirstmas, celebration drinks, party in the garden of his house. | | | |
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| Labour ‘figures’ saying Starmer must resign on 19:20 - May 7 with 725 views | marchy |
| Labour ‘figures’ saying Starmer must resign on 19:16 - May 7 by lowhouseblue |
it was a working dinner. |
Well that's rather at odds with Starmer's account to date, which has made it sound like a quick takeaway was wolfed down before they got straight back to the grindstone, isn't it? It was an 80-minute scheduled "dinner" at the end of the working day. Why hasn't he been open about that? | | | |
| Labour ‘figures’ saying Starmer must resign on 19:23 - May 7 with 662 views | Darth_Koont |
| Labour ‘figures’ saying Starmer must resign on 19:20 - May 7 by marchy |
Well that's rather at odds with Starmer's account to date, which has made it sound like a quick takeaway was wolfed down before they got straight back to the grindstone, isn't it? It was an 80-minute scheduled "dinner" at the end of the working day. Why hasn't he been open about that? |
It’s nothing like Johnson who is of course much more brazen. More like Sunak.
The reason Starmer wasn’t open about it is because he is quietly dishonest. |  |
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| Labour ‘figures’ saying Starmer must resign on 19:23 - May 7 with 694 views | marchy |
| Labour ‘figures’ saying Starmer must resign on 19:18 - May 7 by ZXBlue |
No. It was clear as day.
Party gatherings in theh flat, babysitters coming round for chirstmas, celebration drinks, party in the garden of his house. |
Crucial to several of which was evidence of the organisation of activities that were outlawed, and that's what has happened here. It looks like Starmer is now going to have to fall back on the ambiguity of the definition of what was "reasonably necessary for work", and that's dangerously close to what Johnson has been trying to do. | | | |
| Labour ‘figures’ saying Starmer must resign on 19:28 - May 7 with 672 views | ArnoldMoorhen |
| Labour ‘figures’ saying Starmer must resign on 12:29 - May 7 by GlasgowBlue |
The two party system is completely flawed. In mainland Europe Tony Blair and Jeremy Corbyn would not be in the same political parties. Likewise Rees Mogg and Ken Clarke would not be in the same political parties.
But as long as we have FPTP we will be stuck with the two party system. PR has always been the fairer and more democratic way to go but it doesn't suit the Tories or Labour. |
It didn't suit Labour, when they (thought they) had a 50:50 chance of winning a General Election.
But now it is nearer a 1 in 5 chance, particularly if Scotland has a Referendum and votes to be independent, or, come to that, if Boris (or his successor) denies the people of Scotland a Referendum. In the first of those scenarios a swathe of non-Tory seats are taken out of the equation, in the other, SNP support will be strengthened on the back of the perceived injustice, and Labour, as a unionist party, will suffer.
The Lib Dems (and Greens) need to make it an absolute condition of a Coalition that full Constitutional Reform happens:
A written Constitution, protecting the independence of the Judiciary and de-politicising Policing, and defining the relative roles of the Executive and Legislature, including independent bodies to oversee both, with teeth.
A move to PR (the Scottish Parliament model is demonstrably suitable).
An absolute ban on foreign "investment" in British political parties.
Boris' abuses of power (proroguing, failure to publish reports, breaches of the Ministerial Code...) could not have been happened under a Coalition.
Once the above happens, Labour can split into Hard and Soft Left parties. And everybody in Westminster will have to grow up. | | | |
| Labour ‘figures’ saying Starmer must resign on 19:28 - May 7 with 672 views | ZXBlue |
| Labour ‘figures’ saying Starmer must resign on 19:23 - May 7 by marchy |
Crucial to several of which was evidence of the organisation of activities that were outlawed, and that's what has happened here. It looks like Starmer is now going to have to fall back on the ambiguity of the definition of what was "reasonably necessary for work", and that's dangerously close to what Johnson has been trying to do. |
Not really.
Desperate. | | | |
| Labour ‘figures’ saying Starmer must resign on 19:33 - May 7 with 649 views | marchy |
| Labour ‘figures’ saying Starmer must resign on 19:28 - May 7 by ZXBlue |
Not really.
Desperate. |
Why not?
If you're not going beyond one-word answers, can you at least please point me to anything that indicates that an 80-minute "dinner" after the day's campaigning work has finished is "reasonably necessary for work"? | | | |
| Labour ‘figures’ saying Starmer must resign on 19:35 - May 7 with 643 views | GlasgowBlue |
| Labour ‘figures’ saying Starmer must resign on 19:18 - May 7 by ZXBlue |
No. It was clear as day.
Party gatherings in theh flat, babysitters coming round for chirstmas, celebration drinks, party in the garden of his house. |
Johnson was guilty as sin. And on multiple occasions. He oversaw a party culture in number 10.
But what about the evidence against Sunak? He arrived 5 minutes early for a meeting in Number 10 and walked in on a Johnson being given a cake.
He was fined and Starmer called for Sunak’s resignation. That will be his undoing unfortunately. [Post edited 7 May 2022 19:36]
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| Labour ‘figures’ saying Starmer must resign on 19:41 - May 7 with 604 views | jontysnut |
| Labour ‘figures’ saying Starmer must resign on 19:28 - May 7 by ArnoldMoorhen |
It didn't suit Labour, when they (thought they) had a 50:50 chance of winning a General Election.
But now it is nearer a 1 in 5 chance, particularly if Scotland has a Referendum and votes to be independent, or, come to that, if Boris (or his successor) denies the people of Scotland a Referendum. In the first of those scenarios a swathe of non-Tory seats are taken out of the equation, in the other, SNP support will be strengthened on the back of the perceived injustice, and Labour, as a unionist party, will suffer.
The Lib Dems (and Greens) need to make it an absolute condition of a Coalition that full Constitutional Reform happens:
A written Constitution, protecting the independence of the Judiciary and de-politicising Policing, and defining the relative roles of the Executive and Legislature, including independent bodies to oversee both, with teeth.
A move to PR (the Scottish Parliament model is demonstrably suitable).
An absolute ban on foreign "investment" in British political parties.
Boris' abuses of power (proroguing, failure to publish reports, breaches of the Ministerial Code...) could not have been happened under a Coalition.
Once the above happens, Labour can split into Hard and Soft Left parties. And everybody in Westminster will have to grow up. |
I've been a supporter since before I could vote but I think that sadly the Labour party's on its last legs as 'old' supporters die off. Some will gravitate to Lib Dems and Greens, younger progressives might want something more Corbynite. Current party can't accommodate both. I can't see where a leader who can bring both back is coming from. |  | | |
| Labour ‘figures’ saying Starmer must resign on 19:44 - May 7 with 596 views | ArnoldMoorhen |
| Labour ‘figures’ saying Starmer must resign on 14:35 - May 7 by Darth_Koont |
You're better than this.
You know that with Scotland lost and the Tories/UKIP on the rise that 50-100 Labour safe seats had pretty much disappeared after 2015. But 2017 saw millions return to voting Labour.
You're spinning it yourself to try and deny that 2017 reversed the downward trend. |
You do know that more millions voted Tory, though, right?
Political engagement was at a high, post the Brexit Referendum.
Corbyn engaged the young very well. (Ed Milliband had, too, before him)
It was probably the first proper Social Media General Election in the UK, and Labour did well weaponising the threat to the NHS with videos from doctors and nurses appealing for people to save the NHS.
On the other hand, Labour lost some Metropolitan areas with large Jewish populations, which had traditionally seen the Labour Party as allies but didn't under Corbyn. Leave aside the question of whether Corbyn is or isn't anti-semitic in your or anybody else's opinion, it is a fact that he lost support amongst many in the Jewish community.
Labour was seen as out of touch in the "Red Wall". It was seen as Middle Class and pre-occupied with intersectional politics and favouring minorities over the white, working class, less educated majority in these seats. Starmer hasn't reversed this perception in many of these areas, it seems.
Milliband would have done better than Corbyn at that General Election, in my opinion, without being an antidote to the "Red Wall" problem. Burnham would have done better on both counts, in my opinion. Corbyn lost against May, who famously talked about how naughty she was for going into a field once. And then he lost against Johnson, very, very badly. Had he resigned after failing to beat May he might have been able to anoint a successor and effectively oversee the Leadership Election prior to the second of those General Elections. | | | |
| Labour ‘figures’ saying Starmer must resign on 19:44 - May 7 with 595 views | BanksterDebtSlave |
| Labour ‘figures’ saying Starmer must resign on 18:49 - May 7 by lowhouseblue |
it was definitely work. the nature of political campaigning etc is the people meet one to one, discuss and interact. it often involves food and drink. it is the nature of politics and the people who are involved in it. the informal stuff is just as critical as the formal stuff. people work varied hours and it isn't something you can do remotely. |
So defo not possible over a zoom call like us mere mortals? Here's hoping this leads to good riddance to Johnson, Starmer and any misplaced lingering faith in party politics! |  |
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| Labour ‘figures’ saying Starmer must resign on 19:46 - May 7 with 590 views | BanksterDebtSlave |
| Labour ‘figures’ saying Starmer must resign on 19:23 - May 7 by Darth_Koont |
It’s nothing like Johnson who is of course much more brazen. More like Sunak.
The reason Starmer wasn’t open about it is because he is quietly dishonest. |
aka....being a barrister! | |
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| Labour ‘figures’ saying Starmer must resign on 19:48 - May 7 with 585 views | Eireannach_gorm |
| Labour ‘figures’ saying Starmer must resign on 23:11 - May 6 by GlasgowBlue |
A fatal mistake calling for Sunak to resign when he was fined. Quite a few commentators who are supporters of Starmer said so at the time. |
But he didn't so why should Starmer?
Also he is not in in government. |  | | |
| Labour ‘figures’ saying Starmer must resign on 19:50 - May 7 with 578 views | GlasgowBlue |
| Labour ‘figures’ saying Starmer must resign on 18:49 - May 7 by lowhouseblue |
it was definitely work. the nature of political campaigning etc is the people meet one to one, discuss and interact. it often involves food and drink. it is the nature of politics and the people who are involved in it. the informal stuff is just as critical as the formal stuff. people work varied hours and it isn't something you can do remotely. |
I agree with you. But then I didn’t find it out if the ordinary when photos emerged of people socially distancing whilst drinking in the back garden of number 10 in between work meetings. Alcohol in some types of pressurised meetings isn’t unusual. I’ve done it myself.
Although Starmer and Rayner hosting an online quiz whilst at Durham Miners hall isn’t so easy to explain. There but for the Grace of god that no one in the Miners hall was silly enough to take photos like they did at number 10.
It’s all nonsense of course but as somebody said on Twitter earlier, Starmer has set the bar so high he is now struggling to vault over it himself. [Post edited 7 May 2022 20:07]
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| Labour ‘figures’ saying Starmer must resign on 19:53 - May 7 with 559 views | GlasgowBlue |
| Labour ‘figures’ saying Starmer must resign on 19:48 - May 7 by Eireannach_gorm |
But he didn't so why should Starmer?
Also he is not in in government. |
That’s just daft. I dont want Starmer to go, but if he is fined then his position is untenable. People shouldn’t perform mental gymnastics because it’s the people they support who are in the dock. | |
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| Labour ‘figures’ saying Starmer must resign on 19:57 - May 7 with 548 views | DublinBlue84 |
| Labour ‘figures’ saying Starmer must resign on 18:49 - May 7 by lowhouseblue |
it was definitely work. the nature of political campaigning etc is the people meet one to one, discuss and interact. it often involves food and drink. it is the nature of politics and the people who are involved in it. the informal stuff is just as critical as the formal stuff. people work varied hours and it isn't something you can do remotely. |
Just because the visit itself was over, it doesn't mean he wasn't working after the visit was over, in the same way as one might attend a work meeting off-site at a hired venue, but continued to work from the same location using their laptop after the main reason for being in the off-site had finished.
Despite the Mail claiming he wasn't working after the Curry, at 10.13pm he was active on social media which surely has to be described as campaigning, and therefore work.
Understandably, the Daily Mail, doesn't want to relay this fact to it's readers, because it is more interested in helping their paymasters, rather than actually presenting ALL of the story and letting their readers make their own mind up.
[Post edited 7 May 2022 20:08]
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| Labour ‘figures’ saying Starmer must resign on 19:58 - May 7 with 546 views | ElderGrizzly |
Abbott doubling down tonight
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| Labour ‘figures’ saying Starmer must resign on 20:01 - May 7 with 538 views | DublinBlue84 |
| Labour ‘figures’ saying Starmer must resign on 19:53 - May 7 by GlasgowBlue |
That’s just daft. I dont want Starmer to go, but if he is fined then his position is untenable. People shouldn’t perform mental gymnastics because it’s the people they support who are in the dock. |
I'd be in the same camp, and actually if he does go and Boris doesn't, then it might actually be positive for the Labour Party in terms of showing a difference between themselves and the Tory party and might end up being an own goal by the Tory press.
Why? Because we know Boris is not going to step down by his own accord, and Labour can say that when their man was fined, he did the honourable thing, took his medicine and resigned unlike the Tories who think that they can just carry on like nothing has happened.
The very best thing that can happen for the Tories is that Starmer is found guilty and he stays on and the Labour party tears itself apart. Any other outcome for the Tory party can only be negative if Johnson stays in post. | |
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