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Russia Victory Day 09:00 - May 8 with 1337 viewsChurchman

For Russia, tomorrow is victory day marking the defeat of the Nazis. Russia lost 27m people in WW2. It undeniably ground up large chunks the German army and many argue that Russia won WW2. The Russians have erased the significance of other countries and modified history to their own ends to a far greater extent than US or U.K.

So USSR did win the war - along with the US, Britain and countries from all around the world, including Australia, NZ, SA, Canada, India, Caribbean, you name it.

Britain, US and the allies fought a world war. Germany and Russia didn’t. There’s was a European war. The U.K. and US also fought a mechanised war (we actually owe Chamberlain amongst others thanks for that). Russia and Germany didn’t.

They chose to re fight WW1. Germany economically couldn’t do it any other way. Stalin ensured it was the only way by erasing intelligentsia, generals, anyone considered a threat and the centralised system based on terror ensured that it would be fought with cannon fodder - not that Stalin cared about men. It’s why he pushed for an allied invasion before we were ready. The more dead the less threat was his modus operandi.

As an aside U.K. and US provided 4 million tons of kit to the USSR in the early years. Long since forgotten, along with the sacrifice of those providing it. It is thought Moscow might have fallen without it.

Campaigns are also erased. For example, we all know about Stalingrad. 800k Germans were killed, 91k captured. How many Russians know that in the sideline that was North Africa Germany lost 620k soldiers plus 250k captured?

Every country that fought Hitler made sacrifices felt to this day. Not just Russia. Unlike Russia, they also had to face the Japanese.

So Russia has every right to celebrate/mark tomorrow just as we do armistice day, but it should be about remembrance not the political and military tub thumping Putin will undoubtably make it.
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Russia Victory Day on 09:17 - May 8 with 1292 viewswkj

It just breaks my heart all around. Russian culture is among the richest and fascinating around the globe. That and their curiosity for science and discovery. It is such a shame that they are becoming the global villains due to some bitter paul daniels look-alike with a bone on for the days of the Soviet Union.

If Russia and the West somehow managed to reach a political middle ground, we would likely evolve our real war - that on the ecological damage that the industrial revolution kick started.
[Post edited 8 May 9:20]

Crybaby
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Russia Victory Day on 10:05 - May 8 with 1219 viewsKievthegreat

Pedantry alert, but I think you may have combined the German and Italian numbers for North Africa.
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Russia Victory Day on 10:22 - May 8 with 1185 viewstractorboyjames

Whilst committing numerous war crimes and massacres on their way to Berlin. Some things never change!
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Russia Victory Day on 10:23 - May 8 with 1181 viewsEdwardStone

Russia Victory Day on 09:17 - May 8 by wkj

It just breaks my heart all around. Russian culture is among the richest and fascinating around the globe. That and their curiosity for science and discovery. It is such a shame that they are becoming the global villains due to some bitter paul daniels look-alike with a bone on for the days of the Soviet Union.

If Russia and the West somehow managed to reach a political middle ground, we would likely evolve our real war - that on the ecological damage that the industrial revolution kick started.
[Post edited 8 May 9:20]


With you all the way on this

If the human race decided to spend money on things that really mattered rather than trying to control the worst excesses of meglomaniacs, we would all be a great deal happier.

Of course, these nutters need to be confronted and vanquished, but the cost is horrendous.
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Russia Victory Day on 10:31 - May 8 with 1168 viewstractorboyjames

Russia Victory Day on 09:17 - May 8 by wkj

It just breaks my heart all around. Russian culture is among the richest and fascinating around the globe. That and their curiosity for science and discovery. It is such a shame that they are becoming the global villains due to some bitter paul daniels look-alike with a bone on for the days of the Soviet Union.

If Russia and the West somehow managed to reach a political middle ground, we would likely evolve our real war - that on the ecological damage that the industrial revolution kick started.
[Post edited 8 May 9:20]


“If Russia and the West somehow managed to reach a political middle ground”

What is the middle ground of Russian expansionism and totalitarianism?
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Russia Victory Day on 12:44 - May 8 with 1038 viewswkj

Russia Victory Day on 10:31 - May 8 by tractorboyjames

“If Russia and the West somehow managed to reach a political middle ground”

What is the middle ground of Russian expansionism and totalitarianism?


Certainly not within the context of this post.

Crybaby
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Russia Victory Day on 13:00 - May 8 with 1008 viewsElephantintheRoom

Ahem. One of the reasons the USA experimented with atom bombs on real people was to deter Russia from invading Japan - not that they hadn’t already with a bit of island seizure. The Germans didn’t fight a mechanised war? Tell that to my dad taking on Tiger tanks with pea shooters.

I’m fairly sure Africa isn’t in Europe. Not much credit for the allied victory is given to a fascist dictator- but Franco’s decision to deny Germany access to Gibraltar or kick the Brits out almost certainly saved the UK from defeat - and gave the PR opportunity of taking on the Italians and Afrika Corps in a side show

The Brits gave little or no concept of just how intense and barbaric WW2 was in Europe because they downed tools and ran away at the first sign of combat and didn’t bother going back for four years Ironic really as it was Britain declared war on Germany with no means of actually fighting them

Russia on the other hand suffered a massive invasion culminating at Stalingrad in 1942 - and pushing the Germans and their many allies back across an already devastated landscape which had been preyed on by partisans in between times. Belorussia for example lost a quarter of its population in just two years. Not much demand for synagogues in much of Eastern Europe after WW2 either. In many ways they have much to celebrate - especially as they were cynically left to grind down the Nazi war machine for two years after Stalingrad.

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Russia Victory Day on 15:03 - May 8 with 859 viewsBlueNomad

Russia Victory Day on 13:00 - May 8 by ElephantintheRoom

Ahem. One of the reasons the USA experimented with atom bombs on real people was to deter Russia from invading Japan - not that they hadn’t already with a bit of island seizure. The Germans didn’t fight a mechanised war? Tell that to my dad taking on Tiger tanks with pea shooters.

I’m fairly sure Africa isn’t in Europe. Not much credit for the allied victory is given to a fascist dictator- but Franco’s decision to deny Germany access to Gibraltar or kick the Brits out almost certainly saved the UK from defeat - and gave the PR opportunity of taking on the Italians and Afrika Corps in a side show

The Brits gave little or no concept of just how intense and barbaric WW2 was in Europe because they downed tools and ran away at the first sign of combat and didn’t bother going back for four years Ironic really as it was Britain declared war on Germany with no means of actually fighting them

Russia on the other hand suffered a massive invasion culminating at Stalingrad in 1942 - and pushing the Germans and their many allies back across an already devastated landscape which had been preyed on by partisans in between times. Belorussia for example lost a quarter of its population in just two years. Not much demand for synagogues in much of Eastern Europe after WW2 either. In many ways they have much to celebrate - especially as they were cynically left to grind down the Nazi war machine for two years after Stalingrad.


You are correct in some ways but the British army did not “down tools and ran away at the first sign of combat” and “not bothered for four years.” We were well beaten in 1940 and had no option but to get troops back home. Would have it been better to stay and be annihilated? As in your comments on football you really ought to think through your assertions and the way you word them.

You also completely fail to recognise that Ukraine was steamrollered by the Nazis before they even reached Russia. Putin would have it Russia won the war on its own. The USSR consisted of fifteen nations remember.

N Africa a “sideshow”? Without it Hitler would have taken the oilfields of the Middle East!
[Post edited 8 May 15:27]
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Russia Victory Day on 15:49 - May 8 with 796 viewsChurchman

Russia Victory Day on 10:05 - May 8 by Kievthegreat

Pedantry alert, but I think you may have combined the German and Italian numbers for North Africa.


You are right, of course. My mistake. German losses in N Africa were still enormous but not that level. Wiki does a decent estimate

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_casualties_in_World_War_II
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Russia Victory Day on 16:39 - May 8 with 757 viewsChurchman

Russia Victory Day on 13:00 - May 8 by ElephantintheRoom

Ahem. One of the reasons the USA experimented with atom bombs on real people was to deter Russia from invading Japan - not that they hadn’t already with a bit of island seizure. The Germans didn’t fight a mechanised war? Tell that to my dad taking on Tiger tanks with pea shooters.

I’m fairly sure Africa isn’t in Europe. Not much credit for the allied victory is given to a fascist dictator- but Franco’s decision to deny Germany access to Gibraltar or kick the Brits out almost certainly saved the UK from defeat - and gave the PR opportunity of taking on the Italians and Afrika Corps in a side show

The Brits gave little or no concept of just how intense and barbaric WW2 was in Europe because they downed tools and ran away at the first sign of combat and didn’t bother going back for four years Ironic really as it was Britain declared war on Germany with no means of actually fighting them

Russia on the other hand suffered a massive invasion culminating at Stalingrad in 1942 - and pushing the Germans and their many allies back across an already devastated landscape which had been preyed on by partisans in between times. Belorussia for example lost a quarter of its population in just two years. Not much demand for synagogues in much of Eastern Europe after WW2 either. In many ways they have much to celebrate - especially as they were cynically left to grind down the Nazi war machine for two years after Stalingrad.


Where to begin with your nonsense. Paragraph 1. The US developed the atomic bomb to defeat the Germans and Japanese. Russia had nothing to do with it.

The Tiger tank was an amazing piece of kit, technically. The Germans produced 1350 of them. The US produced 50,000 Shermans. The Sherman was an inferior tank in many ways, being a medium tank. But it was easy to maintain, easy to produce and repair, easy to fit on a landing craft a train or a lorry. It would go over bridges. It could be and was up-gunned to enable to be able to destroy a Tiger or a Panther (Firefly).

The Tiger carried armour and an 88mm gun. It was heavy virtually useless as are most tanks are in a built up area, unreliable (engine and transmission were not strong enough) and complex. Also without air support, they were vulnerable to air attack. The panther is in many ways the genesis of the modern tank. Shame for them it was underdeveloped and suffered the same design mistakes as Tiger. The Germans had no decent system of repair and re supply. You do the numbers. Eisenhower did, the Germans didn’t.

The Germans had no real system of mass production in the way there was in the US and to an extent the U.K. They never fought a total war either. The U.K. was out producing Germany industrially by 1940 comfortably. It needed to do so to fight its war. It’s navy, though stretched was the most modern in 1939, it’s army, the only mechanised army in the world. Air Force was heavily invested in, but the key in 1940 was RDF and the stream of new types coming into service. Part if the investment in the RAF was re-supply, repair, organisation and rotation. Germany had none of that.

In 1940 less than 20% of german divisions were mechanised. The rest of the army moved on foot, by rail or by horse. Nothing changed throughout. It was not a mechanised army.

The British knew well just how barbaric the war was in Europe. Why do you think they went down the mechanisation route? Ever heard of WW1? They had. In fact the leader of the BEF, Lord Gort won the VC in it. Was he a coward that ran away? Your comments are wrong and insulting to those that were there and those that died - and their families. The BEF was small and faced a choice of annihilation or retreat due to astonishing French leadership incompetence. It rightly chose fight again another day and did.

Britain had no means of returning to France before 1944. The Dieppe raid in 1942 showed just how difficult a seaborne invasion was likely to be. However, from N Africa the allies did invade Italy. Allied casualties 330k, Germany 330k. It also conducted an air war over Germany from 1939-45. A friend of mine’s dad was nearly killed at Monte Cassino, so please don’t tell me it was a nothing campaign.

The Russians were not cynically left to do anything by anybody. Stalin, though encouraged the Warsaw uprising and left the Poles to die. The US and U.K. supported Russia throughout the war but this was never recognised.

Nobody has ever not recognised the sacrifice made by USSR. It was astonishing. But part of that sacrifice was due to Stalin, his purges, lack of modernisation, Russia’s non-aggression pact reliance and its training of the German Luftwaffe in the 1930s.
[Post edited 8 May 23:58]
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Russia Victory Day on 17:10 - May 8 with 714 viewsRob88

If it wasn’t the Nazis it would have been the Russians. Stalin was already working to carve up Europe amongst himself and Hitler.

The Russians had their own intentions for deciding to work against, rather than their original stance, of working with Hitler.
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Russia Victory Day on 20:51 - May 8 with 551 viewsCheltenham_Blue

Russia Victory Day on 10:31 - May 8 by tractorboyjames

“If Russia and the West somehow managed to reach a political middle ground”

What is the middle ground of Russian expansionism and totalitarianism?


Ukraine, Lithuania, Estonia, Latvia, Hungary, Romania, Bulgaria and Moldova should do it.

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Russia Victory Day on 21:14 - May 8 with 524 viewsBarcaBlue

Russia Victory Day on 13:00 - May 8 by ElephantintheRoom

Ahem. One of the reasons the USA experimented with atom bombs on real people was to deter Russia from invading Japan - not that they hadn’t already with a bit of island seizure. The Germans didn’t fight a mechanised war? Tell that to my dad taking on Tiger tanks with pea shooters.

I’m fairly sure Africa isn’t in Europe. Not much credit for the allied victory is given to a fascist dictator- but Franco’s decision to deny Germany access to Gibraltar or kick the Brits out almost certainly saved the UK from defeat - and gave the PR opportunity of taking on the Italians and Afrika Corps in a side show

The Brits gave little or no concept of just how intense and barbaric WW2 was in Europe because they downed tools and ran away at the first sign of combat and didn’t bother going back for four years Ironic really as it was Britain declared war on Germany with no means of actually fighting them

Russia on the other hand suffered a massive invasion culminating at Stalingrad in 1942 - and pushing the Germans and their many allies back across an already devastated landscape which had been preyed on by partisans in between times. Belorussia for example lost a quarter of its population in just two years. Not much demand for synagogues in much of Eastern Europe after WW2 either. In many ways they have much to celebrate - especially as they were cynically left to grind down the Nazi war machine for two years after Stalingrad.


After three years of civil war Franco and Spain were in no position to kick anyone out of anywhere. It wasn't a case of denial but complete inability, it wasn't a decision but the harsh reality in a country that regressed economically and socially by at least 40 years in the space of 36 months.
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Russia Victory Day on 21:18 - May 8 with 511 viewsMullet

Russia Victory Day on 21:14 - May 8 by BarcaBlue

After three years of civil war Franco and Spain were in no position to kick anyone out of anywhere. It wasn't a case of denial but complete inability, it wasn't a decision but the harsh reality in a country that regressed economically and socially by at least 40 years in the space of 36 months.


You boys are all going to have to deal with Guthrum when he sees you've barely left him the scraps.

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Russia Victory Day on 21:59 - May 8 with 460 viewsChurchman

Russia Victory Day on 21:14 - May 8 by BarcaBlue

After three years of civil war Franco and Spain were in no position to kick anyone out of anywhere. It wasn't a case of denial but complete inability, it wasn't a decision but the harsh reality in a country that regressed economically and socially by at least 40 years in the space of 36 months.


Agreed. An interested article on why Spain stayed out of WW2

https://www.wearethemighty.com/mighty-history/why-spain-didnt-join-either-side-o
[Post edited 8 May 22:00]
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