| What are Turkey playing at? 19:35 - May 16 with 2152 views | ZXBlue |
Sweden, perhaps the most inoffensive, measured and reasonable nation which has ever existed, a "hatchery for terrorists"?
Time Putin apologists and authoritarian regime based Turkey got the boot from Nato, if that is necessary to get Finland and Sweden in. |  | | |  |
| What are Turkey playing at? on 19:37 - May 16 with 2126 views | Swansea_Blue |
Are people still going on about Eurovision? |  |
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| What are Turkey playing at? on 19:53 - May 16 with 2046 views | Darth_Koont |
Lots of Kurds in Sweden. Lovely people and not great fans of Erdogan or Turkey on the whole. |  |
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| What are Turkey playing at? on 20:01 - May 16 with 1990 views | Eireannach_gorm |
Playing both sides against the middle. |  | | |
| What are Turkey playing at? on 20:21 - May 16 with 1932 views | Sarge |
Hard to think of many countries that have harboured more terrorists than Turkey. Certainly none that are part of NATO. | | | |
| What are Turkey playing at? on 20:49 - May 16 with 1812 views | HARRY10 |
I think Lapland is where Santa Claus lives, which is in Finland
you can't expect Turkey to vote for Christmas [Post edited 17 May 2022 0:19]
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| What are Turkey playing at? on 00:42 - May 17 with 1575 views | Perublue |
| What are Turkey playing at? on 20:49 - May 16 by HARRY10 |
I think Lapland is where Santa Claus lives, which is in Finland
you can't expect Turkey to vote for Christmas [Post edited 17 May 2022 0:19]
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If this is your own work .. I bow to thee. |  |
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| What are Turkey playing at? on 08:19 - May 17 with 1333 views | Sharkey |
For some people in Sweden, Turkey's intervention is a strange blessing, like when the House of Lords step in to stop some knee-jerk populist action by the government.
There is real sadness that Sweden will probably NATO, particularly among the more elderly left and Social Democrats, people who remember Olof Palme and prize him as the greatest of all Swedish politicians, the man who would speak back to the USA and point out abuses in all countries. For many, it feels as though a bit of Sweden is dying, and there is a kind of grieving that it has come to this. |  | | |
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| What are Turkey playing at? on 08:21 - May 17 with 1326 views | Pinewoodblue |
Think it was always likely Turkey would block Sweden and Finland from joining NATO, every existing member has to agree to new members joining.
Goes a long way to explaining why UK entered into joint agreements with both Sweden and Finland.
Going to be interesting to see how the EU reacts, either collectively or individual nations following the UK lead. |  |
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| What are Turkey playing at? on 08:22 - May 17 with 1325 views | bluelagos |
Anyone fully understand the implications? Does the way Nato work mean that's it for F&S membership? Could pro F&S Nato members do a side deal that mirrors the protections given to Nato members? |  |
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| [Redacted] on 08:27 - May 17 with 1297 views | victorywilhappen |
| What are Turkey playing at? on 08:19 - May 17 by Sharkey |
For some people in Sweden, Turkey's intervention is a strange blessing, like when the House of Lords step in to stop some knee-jerk populist action by the government.
There is real sadness that Sweden will probably NATO, particularly among the more elderly left and Social Democrats, people who remember Olof Palme and prize him as the greatest of all Swedish politicians, the man who would speak back to the USA and point out abuses in all countries. For many, it feels as though a bit of Sweden is dying, and there is a kind of grieving that it has come to this. |
[Redacted] |  | | |
| What are Turkey playing at? on 08:45 - May 17 with 1245 views | Sharkey |
In the 1980s, the threat from Russia felt very real. The alarms were tested at 3 p.m. on the first Monday of the month. (They still are, three or four times a year.)
People had stockpiles of canned food and water in preparation for war.
In the 1980s, over 80% of young men were conscripted, and plenty of people went to prison for refusing the draft. (I think the figure for the recent conscription you mention is about 4%.) The fact that Sweden went through the Cold War while staying out of Nato kind of reinforces my point, that for many this feels hastily rushed through, - a kind of Brexit moment for Sweden, but without even a referendum. [Post edited 17 May 2022 8:48]
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| What are Turkey playing at? on 09:25 - May 17 with 1104 views | Guthrum |
| What are Turkey playing at? on 19:53 - May 16 by Darth_Koont |
Lots of Kurds in Sweden. Lovely people and not great fans of Erdogan or Turkey on the whole. |
Sweden has also provided a refuge for followers of Gulen, who Erdogan also hates, accusing them of being behind the attempted coup six years ago. |  |
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| What are Turkey playing at? on 09:34 - May 17 with 1084 views | ArnoldMoorhen |
| What are Turkey playing at? on 08:22 - May 17 by bluelagos |
Anyone fully understand the implications? Does the way Nato work mean that's it for F&S membership? Could pro F&S Nato members do a side deal that mirrors the protections given to Nato members? |
NATO is a Treaty organisation, so every signatory has to agree before new countries may join.
Is that it? Depends on whether ErdoÄŸan is after concessions on something or if this is his full and final response.
Could other NATO members sign individual deals? Yes, UK already has. But each time one of those is signed it causes a potential fracture in NATO, as the whole point of it is as a mutual guarantee of aid in the event of attack. To be in NATO is to say "If you attack any of us, we all declare war on you." Turkey is saying that it is not prepared to offer that guarantee to Sweden and Finland. But UK is...
So, in a hypothetical scenario, Russia invades Finland. UK declares war on Russia. Is NATO now at war with Russia or not? It raises questions and doubts, when the whole point of NATO is to give a clear and unambiguous message of "an attack on one is an attack on all" as a deterrent.
The UK needs either USA or France and Germany to sign the same deal with Sweden and Finland or we find ourselves in a very odd position, and as the number one target for all Russian asymmetric warfare.
For example, I would anticipate the Kompromat files being dusted off, and some quite big stories with photographs that embarrass either the Royal Family or British politicians in the coming weeks. Followed by major cyber attacks and heavy duty interference in the next General Election (if it happens). | | | |
| What are Turkey playing at? on 10:41 - May 17 with 1002 views | Pinewoodblue |
| What are Turkey playing at? on 09:34 - May 17 by ArnoldMoorhen |
NATO is a Treaty organisation, so every signatory has to agree before new countries may join.
Is that it? Depends on whether ErdoÄŸan is after concessions on something or if this is his full and final response.
Could other NATO members sign individual deals? Yes, UK already has. But each time one of those is signed it causes a potential fracture in NATO, as the whole point of it is as a mutual guarantee of aid in the event of attack. To be in NATO is to say "If you attack any of us, we all declare war on you." Turkey is saying that it is not prepared to offer that guarantee to Sweden and Finland. But UK is...
So, in a hypothetical scenario, Russia invades Finland. UK declares war on Russia. Is NATO now at war with Russia or not? It raises questions and doubts, when the whole point of NATO is to give a clear and unambiguous message of "an attack on one is an attack on all" as a deterrent.
The UK needs either USA or France and Germany to sign the same deal with Sweden and Finland or we find ourselves in a very odd position, and as the number one target for all Russian asymmetric warfare.
For example, I would anticipate the Kompromat files being dusted off, and some quite big stories with photographs that embarrass either the Royal Family or British politicians in the coming weeks. Followed by major cyber attacks and heavy duty interference in the next General Election (if it happens). |
UK would would send assistance to Finland if there were signs of a threat, increased military activity, war would not be declared. NATO is a defensive organisation and would respond accordingly if the UK was under direct threat from Russia.
It really isn’t clear, to me, how France, Germany and the EU in general are likely to respond. Would expect US to follow the lead set by UK. | |
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| What are Turkey playing at? on 11:04 - May 17 with 960 views | ArnoldMoorhen |
| What are Turkey playing at? on 10:41 - May 17 by Pinewoodblue |
UK would would send assistance to Finland if there were signs of a threat, increased military activity, war would not be declared. NATO is a defensive organisation and would respond accordingly if the UK was under direct threat from Russia.
It really isn’t clear, to me, how France, Germany and the EU in general are likely to respond. Would expect US to follow the lead set by UK. |
But if British troops defending Finland were attacked by Russia in Finland it is not so cut and dried.
It introduces real ambiguity into what should be an absolutist position.
The history of the origins of WW1, in particular, teach us that there is nothing as dangerous as a mutual defence pact that the opposition doesn't take seriously. | | | |
| What are Turkey playing at? on 12:58 - May 17 with 866 views | HARRY10 |
| What are Turkey playing at? on 00:42 - May 17 by Perublue |
If this is your own work .. I bow to thee. |
yes, absolutely
and thank 'ee, kind sire
I had thought of adding how fat and bloated turkeys are, but thought better of it  | | | |
| What are Turkey playing at? on 13:00 - May 17 with 855 views | chicoazul |
Kick the browns out get the whites in eh. |  |
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| What are Turkey playing at? on 13:02 - May 17 with 845 views | chicoazul |
Turkey was also a very important ally in the Cold War fight against the murderous Soviet regime but let’s forget that and kick them out. | |
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| What are Turkey playing at? on 18:15 - May 17 with 670 views | Oldsmoker |
| What are Turkey playing at? on 13:00 - May 17 by chicoazul |
Kick the browns out get the whites in eh. |
'Replacing' browns with whites?
Is that a 'theory' or have I got it backwards? |  |
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| What are Turkey playing at? on 18:35 - May 17 with 630 views | ZXBlue |
| What are Turkey playing at? on 18:15 - May 17 by Oldsmoker |
'Replacing' browns with whites?
Is that a 'theory' or have I got it backwards? |
One authoritarian religiously motivated regime or a modern democracy? Not quite the same thing. | | | |
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