| Ah so airports across Europe are a mess this summer it appears 18:15 - Jun 18 with 8771 views | Joey_Joe_Joe_Junior |
I guess everyone cheering on international restrictions for two years while happily working on their laptops to are now going to be all angry when it takes them 5 hours to get their luggage this summer.
Funny how that all works when an industry gets decimated eh. |  | | |  |
| Ah so airports across Europe are a mess this summer it appears on 11:10 - Jun 20 with 1754 views | blueasfook |
| Ah so airports across Europe are a mess this summer it appears on 11:14 - Jun 19 by The_Flashing_Smile |
I guess if you didn't have restrictions, more people would've died and therefore there'd be less wanting to fly now, and consequently shorter delays. So your point kind of works. If you're a monumental f@ckhead. |
You got a new passport yet? |  |
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| Ah so airports across Europe are a mess this summer it appears on 12:51 - Jun 20 with 1660 views | The_Flashing_Smile |
| Ah so airports across Europe are a mess this summer it appears on 11:10 - Jun 20 by blueasfook |
You got a new passport yet? |
Stop flirting with me Blueas and just ask me out if you're interested. |  |
| Trust the process. Trust Phil. |
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| Ah so airports across Europe are a mess this summer it appears on 18:24 - Jun 20 with 1566 views | Eireannach_gorm |
| Ah so airports across Europe are a mess this summer it appears on 18:08 - Jun 19 by Joey_Joe_Joe_Junior |
While I agree preserving life should of course be the ultimate goal especially during a (hopefully) once in a generational event, I’d also put forward that the vast majority of people dying were of a retirement age. So the need should have been to protect these people at all costs, unfortunately that didn’t happen through complete mismanagement of nursing homes etc. Still as the pandemic progressed there seemed to be an idea of trying to achieve zero Covid when it was fairly clear after a 8-10 months or so that was never going to happen.
To be clear I wasn’t talking about the early stages of this thing when everyone was learning so much and we were losing so many people (ironically that is exactly when the government in the UK didn’t do anything anyway). I was referencing the ongoing nature of global travel restrictions and in some countries (local lockdowns) which was achieving very little and made no really common sense, see my Mexico example for US visitors. The cross Atlantic air corridor is the most important in the world to the aviation industry and it was basically shut even after testing, even after vaccines. So the idea of having the right intent can have vast consequences for many many people.
The adapt or die doesn’t necessarily work out for senior staff who have mortgages, rents and bills to pay, many of whom had to survive on government money, which was about 10% of their previous wages. Kind of hard to just replace that in a new job, during a pandemic. So yes those people are going to question policy. Nor does it help the family run restaurant that has been around for generations that couldn’t open at full capacity post vaccines in many markets. Anyway what’s done is done, hopefully some lessons have been learned from all sides.
I guess I was one of the lucky ones who had savings to fall back on. [Post edited 19 Jun 2022 18:16]
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Based on this thinking you would no doubt be in favour of the method that firefighters use to control forest fires. A little bit of a cull of those approaching retirement age would have the added bonus of them being unable to claim their retirement money.
Just because some countries did not implement flying restrictions effectively does not make it a bad idea in principle.
People are entitled to question policies that effect them excessively but the common good is out trumps the individual. Most restaurants moved to click and collect. |  | | |
| Ah so airports across Europe are a mess this summer it appears on 18:47 - Jun 20 with 1551 views | Joey_Joe_Joe_Junior |
| Ah so airports across Europe are a mess this summer it appears on 18:24 - Jun 20 by Eireannach_gorm |
Based on this thinking you would no doubt be in favour of the method that firefighters use to control forest fires. A little bit of a cull of those approaching retirement age would have the added bonus of them being unable to claim their retirement money.
Just because some countries did not implement flying restrictions effectively does not make it a bad idea in principle.
People are entitled to question policies that effect them excessively but the common good is out trumps the individual. Most restaurants moved to click and collect. |
So now I want to cull old people becuase I said the vast majority of the people dying of Covid were of a retirement age? Don’t be utterly ridiculous. The Conservatives and the Andrew Cuomo done a pretty good job of that though. I notice no one actually comes back to the real life examples I provided just the genuine principle of broad restrictions for the greater good, when by WHOs admission in the end they weren’t working.
If you looked at the actual air corridors in the world that were open, compared to those that were shut, who could move where, the level of infection and the real life data during 2021 maybe you’d see what I was going on about but anyway but anyway as you were.
The mental gymnastics continues. | | | |
| Ah so airports across Europe are a mess this summer it appears on 21:05 - Jun 20 with 1511 views | The_Flashing_Smile |
| Ah so airports across Europe are a mess this summer it appears on 18:47 - Jun 20 by Joey_Joe_Joe_Junior |
So now I want to cull old people becuase I said the vast majority of the people dying of Covid were of a retirement age? Don’t be utterly ridiculous. The Conservatives and the Andrew Cuomo done a pretty good job of that though. I notice no one actually comes back to the real life examples I provided just the genuine principle of broad restrictions for the greater good, when by WHOs admission in the end they weren’t working.
If you looked at the actual air corridors in the world that were open, compared to those that were shut, who could move where, the level of infection and the real life data during 2021 maybe you’d see what I was going on about but anyway but anyway as you were.
The mental gymnastics continues. |
No-one said they were going to work perfectly, but it's pretty obvious if you restrict people moving around the virus will have less chance of moving around too. | |
| Trust the process. Trust Phil. |
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| Ah so airports across Europe are a mess this summer it appears on 21:35 - Jun 20 with 1481 views | Joey_Joe_Joe_Junior |
| Ah so airports across Europe are a mess this summer it appears on 21:05 - Jun 20 by The_Flashing_Smile |
No-one said they were going to work perfectly, but it's pretty obvious if you restrict people moving around the virus will have less chance of moving around too. |
“There is very little utility of these kinds of bans. Unfortunately, from what we know about the epidemiology of SARS-CoV-2 and the epidemiology of these variants, the horse has probably left the barn,"
Saad Omer, director of the Yale Institute of Global Health.
By the new time new bans were in place, testing re-started here, amber changed to red, flights stopped here, it was always too late but we are going round in circles aren’t we. The stop start of global aviation was flawed for a long time. | | | |
| Ah so airports across Europe are a mess this summer it appears on 00:19 - Jun 21 with 1425 views | The_Flashing_Smile |
| Ah so airports across Europe are a mess this summer it appears on 21:35 - Jun 20 by Joey_Joe_Joe_Junior |
“There is very little utility of these kinds of bans. Unfortunately, from what we know about the epidemiology of SARS-CoV-2 and the epidemiology of these variants, the horse has probably left the barn,"
Saad Omer, director of the Yale Institute of Global Health.
By the new time new bans were in place, testing re-started here, amber changed to red, flights stopped here, it was always too late but we are going round in circles aren’t we. The stop start of global aviation was flawed for a long time. |
I googled that quote - you got it from an article titled "As omicron spreads, studies suggest that travel bans alone don't do much good."
The key word here is "alone".
I don't think anyone's suggested travel bans are good "alone" have they? | |
| Trust the process. Trust Phil. |
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| Ah so airports across Europe are a mess this summer it appears on 00:28 - Jun 21 with 1425 views | Eireannach_gorm |
| Ah so airports across Europe are a mess this summer it appears on 18:47 - Jun 20 by Joey_Joe_Joe_Junior |
So now I want to cull old people becuase I said the vast majority of the people dying of Covid were of a retirement age? Don’t be utterly ridiculous. The Conservatives and the Andrew Cuomo done a pretty good job of that though. I notice no one actually comes back to the real life examples I provided just the genuine principle of broad restrictions for the greater good, when by WHOs admission in the end they weren’t working.
If you looked at the actual air corridors in the world that were open, compared to those that were shut, who could move where, the level of infection and the real life data during 2021 maybe you’d see what I was going on about but anyway but anyway as you were.
The mental gymnastics continues. |
Two New Zealand facts then.
https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/country/new-zealand/
What happened at the beginning of March?
Step 2 of their border opening that's what.
Step 2: from 23:59 on 4 March 2022
Currently, vaccinated New Zealanders and eligible travellers from anywhere in the world can enter New Zealand without the need to enter MIQ.
From 13 March, New Zealand started accepting applications for working holiday visas. In addition, the application process for the ‘other critical worker’ border exception has been simplified. Skilled workers who earn at least 1.5 times the median wage will not need to demonstrate that their skills are not readily obtainable in New Zealand. | | | |
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| Ah so airports across Europe are a mess this summer it appears on 01:02 - Jun 21 with 1412 views | Joey_Joe_Joe_Junior |
| Ah so airports across Europe are a mess this summer it appears on 00:28 - Jun 21 by Eireannach_gorm |
Two New Zealand facts then.
https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/country/new-zealand/
What happened at the beginning of March?
Step 2 of their border opening that's what.
Step 2: from 23:59 on 4 March 2022
Currently, vaccinated New Zealanders and eligible travellers from anywhere in the world can enter New Zealand without the need to enter MIQ.
From 13 March, New Zealand started accepting applications for working holiday visas. In addition, the application process for the ‘other critical worker’ border exception has been simplified. Skilled workers who earn at least 1.5 times the median wage will not need to demonstrate that their skills are not readily obtainable in New Zealand. |
What about it? It’s a small Island in the Southwest Pacific with an extremely low population density and went for zero Covid for 18 months+, completely shutting down upon a single case.
It has a fraction of the air traffic of just LHR on it’s own. If you’re arguing for that, completely grounding and shutting everything for two years and not even having any of the industry open then it’s at least a discussion point for debate I guess (but it was clearly never practical in North America / Europe anyway). | | | |
| Ah so airports across Europe are a mess this summer it appears on 08:38 - Jun 21 with 1356 views | Eireannach_gorm |
| Ah so airports across Europe are a mess this summer it appears on 01:02 - Jun 21 by Joey_Joe_Joe_Junior |
What about it? It’s a small Island in the Southwest Pacific with an extremely low population density and went for zero Covid for 18 months+, completely shutting down upon a single case.
It has a fraction of the air traffic of just LHR on it’s own. If you’re arguing for that, completely grounding and shutting everything for two years and not even having any of the industry open then it’s at least a discussion point for debate I guess (but it was clearly never practical in North America / Europe anyway). |
The old whataboutery response.
You asked for facts and when you are given them, they are the wrong facts!
You clearly will not be persuaded that there was any merit in the travel lockdown plan. | | | |
| Ah so airports across Europe are a mess this summer it appears on 08:57 - Jun 21 with 1342 views | The_Flashing_Smile |
| Ah so airports across Europe are a mess this summer it appears on 08:38 - Jun 21 by Eireannach_gorm |
The old whataboutery response.
You asked for facts and when you are given them, they are the wrong facts!
You clearly will not be persuaded that there was any merit in the travel lockdown plan. |
There were also two late posts from last night, mine just before yours. But he only went for yours because it's obviously easier to answer (because mine caught him out)!
And the one he did answer, as you say, is whataboutery and "yeah but not those facts." To be fair to the lad, it's a good effort, he's trying every trick in the book! | |
| Trust the process. Trust Phil. |
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| Ah so airports across Europe are a mess this summer it appears on 09:41 - Jun 21 with 1325 views | itfcjoe |
| Ah so airports across Europe are a mess this summer it appears on 01:02 - Jun 21 by Joey_Joe_Joe_Junior |
What about it? It’s a small Island in the Southwest Pacific with an extremely low population density and went for zero Covid for 18 months+, completely shutting down upon a single case.
It has a fraction of the air traffic of just LHR on it’s own. If you’re arguing for that, completely grounding and shutting everything for two years and not even having any of the industry open then it’s at least a discussion point for debate I guess (but it was clearly never practical in North America / Europe anyway). |
I tend to agree re the final point, but surely it would have been better to totally shut down travel, for what would have been a shorter period, than what we ended up doing?
In the UK we were totally locked down and there were still dozens of flights landing from high covid regions daily - just another riddle of the lockdowns where the rules didn't make sense alongside each other |  |
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| Ah so airports across Europe are a mess this summer it appears on 09:53 - Jun 21 with 1313 views | clive_baker |
Whizzed through Stansted 4 times in the last month personally. No issues at the other end too. Not denying there are problems, I've seen the pictures and read the stories and I know staffing is a real issue, but it does feel very hit and miss. My personal experience has felt no different to pre Covid. Same with passports, 90% of people are still getting them back within 4 weeks, but of course we never hear about the positive experiences. I wouldn't be deterred from flying. [Post edited 21 Jun 2022 9:55]
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| Ah so airports across Europe are a mess this summer it appears on 10:26 - Jun 21 with 1291 views | Radlett_blue |
| Ah so airports across Europe are a mess this summer it appears on 09:41 - Jun 21 by itfcjoe |
I tend to agree re the final point, but surely it would have been better to totally shut down travel, for what would have been a shorter period, than what we ended up doing?
In the UK we were totally locked down and there were still dozens of flights landing from high covid regions daily - just another riddle of the lockdowns where the rules didn't make sense alongside each other |
You cannot TOTALLY shut down travel unless you close your borders entirely & don't allow your citizens abroad to return home. You also have staff dealing in international trade, unless you want to shut that down as well.
Even with a total shutdown - which would almost certainly be too late anyway as new variants would already have been imported - once you relax restrictions, the cycle simply restarts. |  |
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| Ah so airports across Europe are a mess this summer it appears on 14:34 - Jun 21 with 1223 views | Joey_Joe_Joe_Junior |
| Ah so airports across Europe are a mess this summer it appears on 08:38 - Jun 21 by Eireannach_gorm |
The old whataboutery response.
You asked for facts and when you are given them, they are the wrong facts!
You clearly will not be persuaded that there was any merit in the travel lockdown plan. |
I didn’t ask you for anything, you’re dodging my points and coming back with a false equivalence for the reasons I stated. They also completely locked down for years which, if this happened on a global scale would have been catastrophic.
The only “whataboutery” is you talking about a very isolated country and in the grand scale, a rather unimportant and self sufficient one in terms of global traffic. | | | |
| Ah so airports across Europe are a mess this summer it appears on 14:38 - Jun 21 with 1217 views | The_Flashing_Smile |
| Ah so airports across Europe are a mess this summer it appears on 14:34 - Jun 21 by Joey_Joe_Joe_Junior |
I didn’t ask you for anything, you’re dodging my points and coming back with a false equivalence for the reasons I stated. They also completely locked down for years which, if this happened on a global scale would have been catastrophic.
The only “whataboutery” is you talking about a very isolated country and in the grand scale, a rather unimportant and self sufficient one in terms of global traffic. |
LOL, you've got a nerve complaining about someone dodging points! | |
| Trust the process. Trust Phil. |
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| Ah so airports across Europe are a mess this summer it appears on 14:39 - Jun 21 with 1214 views | Joey_Joe_Joe_Junior |
| Ah so airports across Europe are a mess this summer it appears on 08:57 - Jun 21 by The_Flashing_Smile |
There were also two late posts from last night, mine just before yours. But he only went for yours because it's obviously easier to answer (because mine caught him out)!
And the one he did answer, as you say, is whataboutery and "yeah but not those facts." To be fair to the lad, it's a good effort, he's trying every trick in the book! |
You threw insults at me, then you just used the generic broad restrictions will be helpful line. A lot of people a lot more qualified than you have told you that’s incorrect, to which you have no response. He then mentioned New Zealand like it can be representative of the world. You literally have no idea what you’re talking about on the subject matter. I thought you’d blocked me months ago anyway? | | | |
| Ah so airports across Europe are a mess this summer it appears on 14:39 - Jun 21 with 1209 views | Joey_Joe_Joe_Junior |
| Ah so airports across Europe are a mess this summer it appears on 10:26 - Jun 21 by Radlett_blue |
You cannot TOTALLY shut down travel unless you close your borders entirely & don't allow your citizens abroad to return home. You also have staff dealing in international trade, unless you want to shut that down as well.
Even with a total shutdown - which would almost certainly be too late anyway as new variants would already have been imported - once you relax restrictions, the cycle simply restarts. |
Louder for the people at the back. | | | |
| Ah so airports across Europe are a mess this summer it appears on 14:49 - Jun 21 with 1200 views | Joey_Joe_Joe_Junior |
| Ah so airports across Europe are a mess this summer it appears on 09:41 - Jun 21 by itfcjoe |
I tend to agree re the final point, but surely it would have been better to totally shut down travel, for what would have been a shorter period, than what we ended up doing?
In the UK we were totally locked down and there were still dozens of flights landing from high covid regions daily - just another riddle of the lockdowns where the rules didn't make sense alongside each other |
I agree it should have been shut down harder in the first six months but that means complete closure including citizens. The UK policy seemed to be late for everything then extended somewhat for no reason. However, It wouldn’t have been a shorter period of time, as Covid was always going to be in different parts of the world, at different stages with different variants. Unless there was incredibly strict lockdowns locally throughout and a total border closure, none of this works which I think some people are beggining to realize if they actually think about it.
If anyone bothered to look at the full complexity of the situation and see who could travel where and who couldn’t, a lot of it was political and made very little sense. Countries with higher levels of infection were open whereas others were shut. Biden shut down India three weeks after the UK red listed them for Delta. The response was never global. You either needed everyone grounded and in strict local lockdown or you were always delaying the inevitable. Which isn’t a bad policy at the start with no vaccines and a lot of vulnerable people. 12+ months in, it never really made sense and was economic suicide. [Post edited 21 Jun 2022 14:50]
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| Ah so airports across Europe are a mess this summer it appears on 15:04 - Jun 21 with 1186 views | itfcjoe |
| Ah so airports across Europe are a mess this summer it appears on 14:49 - Jun 21 by Joey_Joe_Joe_Junior |
I agree it should have been shut down harder in the first six months but that means complete closure including citizens. The UK policy seemed to be late for everything then extended somewhat for no reason. However, It wouldn’t have been a shorter period of time, as Covid was always going to be in different parts of the world, at different stages with different variants. Unless there was incredibly strict lockdowns locally throughout and a total border closure, none of this works which I think some people are beggining to realize if they actually think about it.
If anyone bothered to look at the full complexity of the situation and see who could travel where and who couldn’t, a lot of it was political and made very little sense. Countries with higher levels of infection were open whereas others were shut. Biden shut down India three weeks after the UK red listed them for Delta. The response was never global. You either needed everyone grounded and in strict local lockdown or you were always delaying the inevitable. Which isn’t a bad policy at the start with no vaccines and a lot of vulnerable people. 12+ months in, it never really made sense and was economic suicide. [Post edited 21 Jun 2022 14:50]
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I agree re a lack of global thinking, and certainly a lot of politicking - but frustrations for me here were you could see when we needed a lockdown, or a change in restrictions or something else and every time we had to wait and wait and wait for it until pressure got too much and then it happened - but because it was delayed it then went on for longer.
I think we should have totally locked down the airways at the start, in hindsight it may not have proven to be right decision but at the time we were letting people into the country left right and centre whilst bringing it to its knees by having draconian restrictions elsewhere.
A myriad of inconsistencies and delays - it may not have made covid go away any quicker as we learned more about it, but it would have helped the economy to have deeper but shorter lockdowns | |
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| Ah so airports across Europe are a mess this summer it appears on 15:19 - Jun 21 with 1154 views | The_Flashing_Smile |
| Ah so airports across Europe are a mess this summer it appears on 14:39 - Jun 21 by Joey_Joe_Joe_Junior |
You threw insults at me, then you just used the generic broad restrictions will be helpful line. A lot of people a lot more qualified than you have told you that’s incorrect, to which you have no response. He then mentioned New Zealand like it can be representative of the world. You literally have no idea what you’re talking about on the subject matter. I thought you’d blocked me months ago anyway? |
No I never said I was blocking you.
Why are you swerving the point - that you tried to quote an expert backing you up, but that it was taken out of context from an article about travel bans ALONE not working?
You tried to pull a fast one and got caught out... that's why you swerved my point and replied to the other... and why you're deflecting now.
You've shown throughout this thread and others that you're biased. Restrictions impacted you personally, that's why they irk you. That's the truth of all this. | |
| Trust the process. Trust Phil. |
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| Ah so airports across Europe are a mess this summer it appears on 15:22 - Jun 21 with 1151 views | Kropotkin123 |
Yeah, it was my fault for working at home on a laptop. Not their fault for laying people off instead of using the furlough scheme.
At least that is what the land owners, and their gullible parrots, will have you believe because they need to counter businesses refusal to pay their extortionate rents for space they don't need, as you don't need people in an office 24/7 to perform every job in society. |  |
| Submit your 1-24 league prediction here -https://www.twtd.co.uk/forum/514096/page:1 - for the opportunity to get a free Ipswich top. | | Poll: | Would you rather | | Blog: | Round Four: Eagle |
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| Ah so airports across Europe are a mess this summer it appears on 15:32 - Jun 21 with 1142 views | Joey_Joe_Joe_Junior |
| Ah so airports across Europe are a mess this summer it appears on 15:19 - Jun 21 by The_Flashing_Smile |
No I never said I was blocking you.
Why are you swerving the point - that you tried to quote an expert backing you up, but that it was taken out of context from an article about travel bans ALONE not working?
You tried to pull a fast one and got caught out... that's why you swerved my point and replied to the other... and why you're deflecting now.
You've shown throughout this thread and others that you're biased. Restrictions impacted you personally, that's why they irk you. That's the truth of all this. |
I’m not deflecting from anything, you are out of your depth on the matter to be quite frank. Saying less people moving around means less Covid is where your argument ends. When the truth is a lot more complex than that due to the nature of the half hearted bans, people with status still being allowed to travel and open corridors in places with much higher rates of infection, see the Mexico example for circumnavigating the US ban. He was backing saying a what a lot of the industry had been talking about in the months prior.
If you want to throw all your expertise and knowledge on the subject go ahead but you haven’t got any that I can see, whereas I’ve been involved at looking at this entire subject matter from day 1 on a professional basis with consultants from each side of this thing.
You did say you had me on ignore in your passport thread (ironically). | | | |
| Ah so airports across Europe are a mess this summer it appears on 15:36 - Jun 21 with 1130 views | The_Flashing_Smile |
| Ah so airports across Europe are a mess this summer it appears on 15:32 - Jun 21 by Joey_Joe_Joe_Junior |
I’m not deflecting from anything, you are out of your depth on the matter to be quite frank. Saying less people moving around means less Covid is where your argument ends. When the truth is a lot more complex than that due to the nature of the half hearted bans, people with status still being allowed to travel and open corridors in places with much higher rates of infection, see the Mexico example for circumnavigating the US ban. He was backing saying a what a lot of the industry had been talking about in the months prior.
If you want to throw all your expertise and knowledge on the subject go ahead but you haven’t got any that I can see, whereas I’ve been involved at looking at this entire subject matter from day 1 on a professional basis with consultants from each side of this thing.
You did say you had me on ignore in your passport thread (ironically). |
So that's it: I KNOW MORE THAN ALL OF YOU SO SHUT UP.
No point to this discussion if that's your fallback option. An appeal to authority. | |
| Trust the process. Trust Phil. |
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| Ah so airports across Europe are a mess this summer it appears on 15:51 - Jun 21 with 1115 views | Joey_Joe_Joe_Junior |
| Ah so airports across Europe are a mess this summer it appears on 15:36 - Jun 21 by The_Flashing_Smile |
So that's it: I KNOW MORE THAN ALL OF YOU SO SHUT UP.
No point to this discussion if that's your fallback option. An appeal to authority. |
Not at all. I invite anyone to read the entire thread and draw their own conclusions if that’s what you’ve decided, then you do you. Without going into the nitty gritty of all the detail I’ve made plenty of broad points which haven’t been countered, where’s your one notion of more restrictions less Covid or the NZ argument isn’t really standing up for reasons outlined.
No issue with anyone disagreeing but it hasn’t really been contested with anything of clout from yourself. Either way we seem to be going in circles and I’m sure everyone can have their own POV on what worked and what didn’t.
I better get back to work ;) | | | |
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