| The International Swimming Organisation has banned.... 10:21 - Jun 21 with 7381 views | itfcjoe |
....trans women from competing in women's events.
It is now expected that World Athletics will follow in doing so as well ( https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/athletics/61865789 )
I'm not sure what the FIFA position is, but they released conflicting statements about it previously.
It does seem that the tide is turning back towards fairness in women's sports rather than inclusivity, which I personally think is right - it is impossible to square that circle of inclusivity and fairness without just destroying women's sports
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| The International Swimming Organisation has banned.... on 10:21 - Jun 21 with 2934 views | Parky |
Good. |  | | |
| The International Swimming Organisation has banned.... on 10:26 - Jun 21 with 2912 views | Swansea_Blue |
The piece I was reading about this over the weekend (BBC link doesn't work btw) said they are introducing a trans category. That's an interesting one to square around fairness. I'm not sure how you'd ensure a balance there. |  |
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| The International Swimming Organisation has banned.... on 10:28 - Jun 21 with 2889 views | waveneyblue |
I don't see any other option to be honest.
You can't possibly have equality or a fair playing field when it comes to the biological physicality of a person. Its the reason that men and women don't compete against each other in the vast majority of elite sports. |  | | |
| The International Swimming Organisation has banned.... on 10:35 - Jun 21 with 2853 views | Mookamoo |
| The International Swimming Organisation has banned.... on 10:26 - Jun 21 by Swansea_Blue |
The piece I was reading about this over the weekend (BBC link doesn't work btw) said they are introducing a trans category. That's an interesting one to square around fairness. I'm not sure how you'd ensure a balance there. |
I read that also - there will be an 'open' category.
It does seem to make sense to me to restrict access to female sport to those that have been through male puberty - the advantages of a male puberty must surely be undeniable.
It's one of those subjects I don't know enough about and as white middle class male I really ought to try to understand. I do read articles from both sides, but to be honest, having finished some articles I'm still not sure which side of the fence they're on. |  | | |
| The International Swimming Organisation has banned.... on 10:44 - Jun 21 with 2823 views | textbackup |
Good job.
make a separate section for them if they want to compete on a level too.
imagine taking your daughters to training for a certain sport for years and years, for them to get to an elite level, where they are beaten by a man. pathetically unfair that was allowed to happen. |  |
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| The International Swimming Organisation has banned.... on 10:46 - Jun 21 with 2811 views | itfcjoe |
| The International Swimming Organisation has banned.... on 10:26 - Jun 21 by Swansea_Blue |
The piece I was reading about this over the weekend (BBC link doesn't work btw) said they are introducing a trans category. That's an interesting one to square around fairness. I'm not sure how you'd ensure a balance there. |
I guess a trans category is the only real answer, or for the male category to be redefined as 'open' but for team sports there simply isn't going to be enough competitors so will just be individual sports in reality.
I'd guess almost similar to paralympics where they have lots of different categories and people can move between them as conditions worsen or get better to ensure fairness? WHo knows at the moment | |
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| The International Swimming Organisation has banned.... on 10:48 - Jun 21 with 2785 views | itfcjoe |
| The International Swimming Organisation has banned.... on 10:44 - Jun 21 by textbackup |
Good job.
make a separate section for them if they want to compete on a level too.
imagine taking your daughters to training for a certain sport for years and years, for them to get to an elite level, where they are beaten by a man. pathetically unfair that was allowed to happen. |
I think there is a problem at lower levels too as everything feeds into elite levels - if your daughter was a runner and Suffolk were only sending one person through to the National Championship then a biological female is excluded if a trans woman takes that place.
Sport is a zero-sum game really - if someone competes, someone has to miss out | |
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| The International Swimming Organisation has banned.... on 10:51 - Jun 21 with 2764 views | STYG |
| The International Swimming Organisation has banned.... on 10:35 - Jun 21 by Mookamoo |
I read that also - there will be an 'open' category.
It does seem to make sense to me to restrict access to female sport to those that have been through male puberty - the advantages of a male puberty must surely be undeniable.
It's one of those subjects I don't know enough about and as white middle class male I really ought to try to understand. I do read articles from both sides, but to be honest, having finished some articles I'm still not sure which side of the fence they're on. |
It's an incredibly complex and emotional issue and one where there will probably never be a fair or right outcome, but potentially the one that prejudices the least people.
The quickest way to get there might be to see what FIFA suggest and do the opposite. I can't imagine their response on this will likely be sensitive or reasonable but I'd love to be shocked.
It is so tricky because people should be allowed to be whoever they are, without prejudice, but when it comes to gender, transgender and an athlete having an advantage over another athlete, this has always been the case. Usain Bolt was born faster than me, Michael Jordan was taller than me and Jonah Lomu more powerful.
But the long since established category has been men and women because for centuries that all that people could be defined as. Given the clear and proven genetic advantages men have over women in terms of speed and power it was only fair to allow women to be the best in their respective fields in sports where they simply could not reasonably be expected to compete.
As the world rightly wakes up to the fact that, genetically, it is not just the case of being born male or female and that you therefore feel that way, sport needs to have some serious conversations. It may be unfair to ban transgender athletes but also may be unfair to allow them to compete against people where they now may have an advantage.
However, in my opinion, which may be unpopular with some, I see nothing wrong with allowing a transgender woman to compete with other women. No man is being born, getting into sport and deciding to become a woman so they can win a few gold medals. I cannot imagine, even if we assumed you had the 100th best male golfer who would win the female PGA tour, is deciding to have life changing surgery to pick up a few honours.
Given that one male can be born with physical an advantage over another (a 6'7 bloke against a 5'4 one), I think ultimately people should compete against those they consider to be their peers. I can appreciate this upsets the female world number 1 when someone comes along as it better than them, but that can happen any time with a youngster coming through or another rival getting better.
(Apologies if any phrasing or the way I've explained anything has been offensive or the correct terms have not been applied) | | | |
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| The International Swimming Organisation has banned.... on 10:56 - Jun 21 with 2744 views | STYG |
| The International Swimming Organisation has banned.... on 10:44 - Jun 21 by textbackup |
Good job.
make a separate section for them if they want to compete on a level too.
imagine taking your daughters to training for a certain sport for years and years, for them to get to an elite level, where they are beaten by a man. pathetically unfair that was allowed to happen. |
But this is, in essence, no difference to them missing out because a better girl / woman comes along.
The issue here is why is that 'man' as you call them competing. Is that 'man' actually someone who realised that they were actually female and wants to be a woman or is it a man pretending to be a woman and have life altering surgery to win a few races!
I think it's quite clear anybody in sport who is transgender, bringing that much attention to themselves in a sh*tty world where such prejudice exists, is doing it because that's how they genuinely identify and feel, not to win more medals or tournaments.
Ultimately, every person has genetic advantages over someone else. Always have and always will. If you took it to that level you'd have height categories for basketball teams, age categories for senior football teams ... why should a 37 year old defender have to face an 18 year old forward? It's all part of the same issue. | | | |
| The International Swimming Organisation has banned.... on 11:04 - Jun 21 with 2693 views | Eireannach_gorm |
| The International Swimming Organisation has banned.... on 10:56 - Jun 21 by STYG |
But this is, in essence, no difference to them missing out because a better girl / woman comes along.
The issue here is why is that 'man' as you call them competing. Is that 'man' actually someone who realised that they were actually female and wants to be a woman or is it a man pretending to be a woman and have life altering surgery to win a few races!
I think it's quite clear anybody in sport who is transgender, bringing that much attention to themselves in a sh*tty world where such prejudice exists, is doing it because that's how they genuinely identify and feel, not to win more medals or tournaments.
Ultimately, every person has genetic advantages over someone else. Always have and always will. If you took it to that level you'd have height categories for basketball teams, age categories for senior football teams ... why should a 37 year old defender have to face an 18 year old forward? It's all part of the same issue. |
Based on this logic, there should be no men and women sport just one category called human. |  | | |
| The International Swimming Organisation has banned.... on 11:09 - Jun 21 with 2662 views | textbackup |
| The International Swimming Organisation has banned.... on 10:56 - Jun 21 by STYG |
But this is, in essence, no difference to them missing out because a better girl / woman comes along.
The issue here is why is that 'man' as you call them competing. Is that 'man' actually someone who realised that they were actually female and wants to be a woman or is it a man pretending to be a woman and have life altering surgery to win a few races!
I think it's quite clear anybody in sport who is transgender, bringing that much attention to themselves in a sh*tty world where such prejudice exists, is doing it because that's how they genuinely identify and feel, not to win more medals or tournaments.
Ultimately, every person has genetic advantages over someone else. Always have and always will. If you took it to that level you'd have height categories for basketball teams, age categories for senior football teams ... why should a 37 year old defender have to face an 18 year old forward? It's all part of the same issue. |
"why should a 37 year old defender have to face an 18 year old forward?"
one of the stupidest things i've read on here. | |
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| The International Swimming Organisation has banned.... on 11:13 - Jun 21 with 2638 views | PrideOfTheEast |
| The International Swimming Organisation has banned.... on 10:56 - Jun 21 by STYG |
But this is, in essence, no difference to them missing out because a better girl / woman comes along.
The issue here is why is that 'man' as you call them competing. Is that 'man' actually someone who realised that they were actually female and wants to be a woman or is it a man pretending to be a woman and have life altering surgery to win a few races!
I think it's quite clear anybody in sport who is transgender, bringing that much attention to themselves in a sh*tty world where such prejudice exists, is doing it because that's how they genuinely identify and feel, not to win more medals or tournaments.
Ultimately, every person has genetic advantages over someone else. Always have and always will. If you took it to that level you'd have height categories for basketball teams, age categories for senior football teams ... why should a 37 year old defender have to face an 18 year old forward? It's all part of the same issue. |
How is that part of the same issue? In a team game people would have the ability to pick a side, tactic, or formation based on attributes. We might pick Burgess against Akinfenwa for example. | | | |
| The International Swimming Organisation has banned.... on 11:17 - Jun 21 with 2595 views | STYG |
| The International Swimming Organisation has banned.... on 11:04 - Jun 21 by Eireannach_gorm |
Based on this logic, there should be no men and women sport just one category called human. |
No.
There should be men and women's events which cover 99.99% of all athletes on the planet currently. It has worked perfectly for decades but now there is a growing number of people who would previously have lived miserable lives who can do something about it and they have to be included in the sensible conversation here too.
It just means if some poor person that believes they were born in the wrong body and has to live a lifetime of prejudice anyway just to be true to themselves is also good at sport, they should be included in the correct category based on how they identify because literally NOBODY is having corrective surgery to win a couple of rosettes. | | | |
| The International Swimming Organisation has banned.... on 11:21 - Jun 21 with 2565 views | STYG |
| The International Swimming Organisation has banned.... on 11:09 - Jun 21 by textbackup |
"why should a 37 year old defender have to face an 18 year old forward?"
one of the stupidest things i've read on here. |
So why are people worried about someone born a man, who clearly feels they should be a woman and who is prepared to have significant surgery to become a woman miss out on sport.
Because they are better than the current women's number one? That same woman could be replaced by a 17 year old prodigy or a 25 year old that has just improved.
Ultimately there are physical mismatches already in men's and women's sport. There is clearly a chance that a transgender athlete, from man to woman, has advantages over other women, but you either allow them to compete and one or two athletes a year come in with this advantage or you turn round to people who have been prejudiced against their whole life and say f*** you. You can't have sport either. | | | |
| The International Swimming Organisation has banned.... on 11:25 - Jun 21 with 2531 views | Mookamoo |
| The International Swimming Organisation has banned.... on 11:17 - Jun 21 by STYG |
No.
There should be men and women's events which cover 99.99% of all athletes on the planet currently. It has worked perfectly for decades but now there is a growing number of people who would previously have lived miserable lives who can do something about it and they have to be included in the sensible conversation here too.
It just means if some poor person that believes they were born in the wrong body and has to live a lifetime of prejudice anyway just to be true to themselves is also good at sport, they should be included in the correct category based on how they identify because literally NOBODY is having corrective surgery to win a couple of rosettes. |
I'm not sure the argument is around any kind of surgery - its more about the ability of the male body to form muscle mass during puberty which will ultimately result in that body's performance being at an advantage over anyone that has been through a female puberty. | | | |
| The International Swimming Organisation has banned.... on 11:25 - Jun 21 with 2530 views | STYG |
| The International Swimming Organisation has banned.... on 11:13 - Jun 21 by PrideOfTheEast |
How is that part of the same issue? In a team game people would have the ability to pick a side, tactic, or formation based on attributes. We might pick Burgess against Akinfenwa for example. |
Akinfenwa is the size he is because he worked very hard in the gym, was born with sheer strength and size or a combination of both. We know it to be the latter.
Without the weights though he'd still be at a massive advantage over Conor Chaplin in wrestling, weight lifting etc. There is already a massive disparity there.
Does anyone really think Conor Chaplin deciding to become a woman would be so he could be a weight lifting champion though? Nobody decides to become transgender for a laugh do they. This is people being born with the wrong identity and suffering their whole lives.
I'd say include a handful of them into sport is a lot better human solution than making their lives that little bit more miserable but shutting the sporting door on them. | | | |
| The International Swimming Organisation has banned.... on 11:29 - Jun 21 with 2512 views | STYG |
| The International Swimming Organisation has banned.... on 11:25 - Jun 21 by Mookamoo |
I'm not sure the argument is around any kind of surgery - its more about the ability of the male body to form muscle mass during puberty which will ultimately result in that body's performance being at an advantage over anyone that has been through a female puberty. |
But some men have the same advantage over other men. Likewise women.
I get the argument, which is why it is incredibly complex. If I was the top female athlete, training 12 hours a day for my whole life, and then pipped at the olympics by a newcomer, who went through male puberty and I couldn't compete with them I'd be heartbroken.
But if I were a transgender person brave enough to enter the world of sport and be in the public eye and then told I couldn't compete with anyone, I'd be heartbroken too.
Do we really think the best solution is having one transgender runner doing a marathon on their own and picking up the gold? How humiliating.
Men and women categories work for 99.99% of the athletes on the planet. Personally I'd rather allow this hypothetical transgender person to compete with the women regardless of puberty, because the only other option is to have someone who is now a woman compete with men and be ridiculed or to have them miss out all together.
None of the solutions are fair or ideal. I just think the one I'd support is the most compassionate one. | | | |
| The International Swimming Organisation has banned.... on 11:34 - Jun 21 with 2464 views | blueasfook |
| The International Swimming Organisation has banned.... on 11:21 - Jun 21 by STYG |
So why are people worried about someone born a man, who clearly feels they should be a woman and who is prepared to have significant surgery to become a woman miss out on sport.
Because they are better than the current women's number one? That same woman could be replaced by a 17 year old prodigy or a 25 year old that has just improved.
Ultimately there are physical mismatches already in men's and women's sport. There is clearly a chance that a transgender athlete, from man to woman, has advantages over other women, but you either allow them to compete and one or two athletes a year come in with this advantage or you turn round to people who have been prejudiced against their whole life and say f*** you. You can't have sport either. |
I think I prefer the ISOs take on it. Thanks for your input however. |  |
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| The International Swimming Organisation has banned.... on 11:35 - Jun 21 with 2464 views | textbackup |
| The International Swimming Organisation has banned.... on 11:21 - Jun 21 by STYG |
So why are people worried about someone born a man, who clearly feels they should be a woman and who is prepared to have significant surgery to become a woman miss out on sport.
Because they are better than the current women's number one? That same woman could be replaced by a 17 year old prodigy or a 25 year old that has just improved.
Ultimately there are physical mismatches already in men's and women's sport. There is clearly a chance that a transgender athlete, from man to woman, has advantages over other women, but you either allow them to compete and one or two athletes a year come in with this advantage or you turn round to people who have been prejudiced against their whole life and say f*** you. You can't have sport either. |
"So why are people worried about someone born a man, who clearly feels they should be a woman"
because its a huge unfair advantage, as proven on multiple levels. | |
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| The International Swimming Organisation has banned.... on 11:36 - Jun 21 with 2462 views | The_Flashing_Smile |
| The International Swimming Organisation has banned.... on 10:56 - Jun 21 by STYG |
But this is, in essence, no difference to them missing out because a better girl / woman comes along.
The issue here is why is that 'man' as you call them competing. Is that 'man' actually someone who realised that they were actually female and wants to be a woman or is it a man pretending to be a woman and have life altering surgery to win a few races!
I think it's quite clear anybody in sport who is transgender, bringing that much attention to themselves in a sh*tty world where such prejudice exists, is doing it because that's how they genuinely identify and feel, not to win more medals or tournaments.
Ultimately, every person has genetic advantages over someone else. Always have and always will. If you took it to that level you'd have height categories for basketball teams, age categories for senior football teams ... why should a 37 year old defender have to face an 18 year old forward? It's all part of the same issue. |
I get what you're saying but I don't think it's as simple as that. A man becoming a woman presumably has a lot more testosterone than a woman who's always been a woman. But if that woman who's always been a woman injected testosterone up to the same level as the trans person, that'd be cheating, right? Where do you draw the line?
A footballer starting young and then becoming old is the natural way the body works and no-one can do anything about that. It's not the same as someone having surgery to transition.
I try to be woke (I don't see it as the insult some do) but I agree with Joe on this. It's unfortunate that some people won't be allowed to compete, but women's sport could potentially die if trans people are allowed in. Surely keeping the sport going is the greater good? You can't have everything you want in life, so I'm afraid that's tough luck for trans athletes. Everyone has disadvantages in some way in life, nothing's ever going to be perfect. We all have things we want to do but can't. I'd love to be an astronaut but I'm not going to start a support group demanding Nasa let me in! |  |
| Trust the process. Trust Phil. |
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| The International Swimming Organisation has banned.... on 11:36 - Jun 21 with 2457 views | itfcjoe |
| The International Swimming Organisation has banned.... on 10:56 - Jun 21 by STYG |
But this is, in essence, no difference to them missing out because a better girl / woman comes along.
The issue here is why is that 'man' as you call them competing. Is that 'man' actually someone who realised that they were actually female and wants to be a woman or is it a man pretending to be a woman and have life altering surgery to win a few races!
I think it's quite clear anybody in sport who is transgender, bringing that much attention to themselves in a sh*tty world where such prejudice exists, is doing it because that's how they genuinely identify and feel, not to win more medals or tournaments.
Ultimately, every person has genetic advantages over someone else. Always have and always will. If you took it to that level you'd have height categories for basketball teams, age categories for senior football teams ... why should a 37 year old defender have to face an 18 year old forward? It's all part of the same issue. |
The every person having genetic differences is a flawed argument when compared to the difference between biological men and biological women. The protected category exists because there is no way for women and men to compete fairly because of the advantage gained by going through male puberty and how that shapes your body (or doesn't)
And sadly, people would do this to win medals - we have seen in the last couple of years state sponsored doping programmes to try and win medals - and when you look back to the damage these same countries did when they were behind the Iron Curtain and knowing the long term damage it did to people like Heidi Krieger that they are still willing to do it means there isn't a depth that wouldn't be sunk to.
Not that that should be the main reason why, the reason should be why are people going into a protected category for sports when the protection was there effectively to keep them out. | |
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| The International Swimming Organisation has banned.... on 11:39 - Jun 21 with 2438 views | blueasfook |
| The International Swimming Organisation has banned.... on 11:36 - Jun 21 by The_Flashing_Smile |
I get what you're saying but I don't think it's as simple as that. A man becoming a woman presumably has a lot more testosterone than a woman who's always been a woman. But if that woman who's always been a woman injected testosterone up to the same level as the trans person, that'd be cheating, right? Where do you draw the line?
A footballer starting young and then becoming old is the natural way the body works and no-one can do anything about that. It's not the same as someone having surgery to transition.
I try to be woke (I don't see it as the insult some do) but I agree with Joe on this. It's unfortunate that some people won't be allowed to compete, but women's sport could potentially die if trans people are allowed in. Surely keeping the sport going is the greater good? You can't have everything you want in life, so I'm afraid that's tough luck for trans athletes. Everyone has disadvantages in some way in life, nothing's ever going to be perfect. We all have things we want to do but can't. I'd love to be an astronaut but I'm not going to start a support group demanding Nasa let me in! |
You struggled to travel to South Africa recently, let alone space.
Actually, I wonder if astronauts have to carry passports? That's an interesting question... | |
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| The International Swimming Organisation has banned.... on 11:42 - Jun 21 with 2420 views | The_Flashing_Smile |
| The International Swimming Organisation has banned.... on 11:21 - Jun 21 by STYG |
So why are people worried about someone born a man, who clearly feels they should be a woman and who is prepared to have significant surgery to become a woman miss out on sport.
Because they are better than the current women's number one? That same woman could be replaced by a 17 year old prodigy or a 25 year old that has just improved.
Ultimately there are physical mismatches already in men's and women's sport. There is clearly a chance that a transgender athlete, from man to woman, has advantages over other women, but you either allow them to compete and one or two athletes a year come in with this advantage or you turn round to people who have been prejudiced against their whole life and say f*** you. You can't have sport either. |
I'm not sure anyone's saying f*** you. They're saying it's not fair on women, and any right-minded person can see that (and the science proves it).
A trans person has altered their body. Physically speaking it's not much different to taking performance enhancing drugs. Using you logic, someone could "identify as a stronger person", take drugs in order to be that person, and then claim they should compete.
Also, you keep bringing up that no-one's going to transition just to win medals, but no-one's suggesting they would. Their motives are nothing to do with it. | |
| Trust the process. Trust Phil. |
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| The International Swimming Organisation has banned.... on 11:43 - Jun 21 with 2406 views | Mookamoo |
| The International Swimming Organisation has banned.... on 11:29 - Jun 21 by STYG |
But some men have the same advantage over other men. Likewise women.
I get the argument, which is why it is incredibly complex. If I was the top female athlete, training 12 hours a day for my whole life, and then pipped at the olympics by a newcomer, who went through male puberty and I couldn't compete with them I'd be heartbroken.
But if I were a transgender person brave enough to enter the world of sport and be in the public eye and then told I couldn't compete with anyone, I'd be heartbroken too.
Do we really think the best solution is having one transgender runner doing a marathon on their own and picking up the gold? How humiliating.
Men and women categories work for 99.99% of the athletes on the planet. Personally I'd rather allow this hypothetical transgender person to compete with the women regardless of puberty, because the only other option is to have someone who is now a woman compete with men and be ridiculed or to have them miss out all together.
None of the solutions are fair or ideal. I just think the one I'd support is the most compassionate one. |
It would be nice to think we could start from a point of inclusion, but elite sport is not compassionate. - it's nasty. I'm not sure that high level sport allows for a default position of compassion.
I'm not (and I assume you aren't) a trans or cis female so we are probably not the ones who need to sort this out anyway. | | | |
| The International Swimming Organisation has banned.... on 11:48 - Jun 21 with 2387 views | blueasfook |
| The International Swimming Organisation has banned.... on 11:39 - Jun 21 by blueasfook |
You struggled to travel to South Africa recently, let alone space.
Actually, I wonder if astronauts have to carry passports? That's an interesting question... |
I looked it up. The answer is "no" but if an astronaut lands in a country not of his own origin. (For example an American ISS astronaut landing in Kazakhstan), then a US diplomat would take his passport there so he can use it for transfer back to the US once landed.
Source: WikiBlueas | |
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