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Scottish Independence Referendum 19:02 - Jun 28 with 6251 viewsunbelievablue

Here's your job: convince me (English, lives in England, no ties to Scotland) that I should care and/or be annoyed about it.*

*I say this because, in the social groups of which I am a (integral, obviously) contributing member, there seems to be a fair deal of hand-wringing/anger/annoyance about the whole thing, and I really can't tell why.

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Scottish Independence Referendum on 19:04 - Jun 28 with 2928 viewsBlueandTruesince82

Personally I'm with you. I'm really not bothered if they stay or go. I'm sure there all kinds of arguments for both sides but aside from the fact that a Scottish team in the Olymoics would see a team GB medal count dwindle I'm no concerned either way

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Scottish Independence Referendum on 19:14 - Jun 28 with 2880 viewsdominiciawful

Be nice if England actually had its own separate parliament and executive.

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Scottish Independence Referendum on 19:20 - Jun 28 with 2861 viewsKropotkin123

We had a vote on leaving the EU off the back of the government wanting to appease a few backbenchers and appeal to the support base of UKIP.

Scotland have had their leading party campaign on leaving the union since 2007. The same party has had a majority since 2011. So 15 sustained years of the most popular party wanting to leave the union.

We left the EU, which is a massive change and one which should trigger a revote. People's opinion in England, Wales and Northern Ireland should have no bearing on this. If the union is strong, it will stand, if it isn't, it will fall. The consequences of Brexit should be faced as soon as possible.
[Post edited 28 Jun 2022 19:21]

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Scottish Independence Referendum on 19:28 - Jun 28 with 2799 viewsLeaky

Scottish Independence Referendum on 19:14 - Jun 28 by dominiciawful

Be nice if England actually had its own separate parliament and executive.


Nice thought, however its another level of bureaucracy. its why I voted for Brexit another bunch of freeloaders. We could have more bureaucrats than people who who produce stuff
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Scottish Independence Referendum on 19:37 - Jun 28 with 2765 viewssolomon

If Scotland wants independence then they should have it, I think all the countries of the union would be happier on their own and in all probability so would England too.
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Scottish Independence Referendum on 19:51 - Jun 28 with 2728 viewsChurchman

Same with me. No Scottish connections whatsoever. I don’t care what they do. Up to them.

Given the SNP has held a majority for years, it’s clear what the majority there want, so I don’t see the necessity even to hold a vote.
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Scottish Independence Referendum on 19:54 - Jun 28 with 2722 viewsMattinLondon

Scottish Independence Referendum on 19:51 - Jun 28 by Churchman

Same with me. No Scottish connections whatsoever. I don’t care what they do. Up to them.

Given the SNP has held a majority for years, it’s clear what the majority there want, so I don’t see the necessity even to hold a vote.


The necessity being that the last referendum produced a clear no to independence. Also, very few opinion polls have shown a clear majority wanting an independent Scotland.
[Post edited 28 Jun 2022 19:55]
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Scottish Independence Referendum on 20:07 - Jun 28 with 2681 viewsCheltenham_Blue

Scottish Independence Referendum on 19:37 - Jun 28 by solomon

If Scotland wants independence then they should have it, I think all the countries of the union would be happier on their own and in all probability so would England too.


Not the Welsh so I'm repeatedly informed. But Scotland and NI seem destined to go.
Like having a bad tooth removed, its better to get it over and done with.

However, Sturgeon is lying to the Scottish populous about Europe in the same way Brexit was lied about, it certainly won't be easy to just 'rejoin' the EU, it will take anywhere from 12-15 years and she's not being honest about that.

I'm also intrigued as to how Scotland plans to import goods from the EU. Transporting by ship through the north sea is not ideal, and overland through England is out of the question. Overland through Ireland is possible, but anything through NI runs risks around the peace process.

Its not nearly as simple as she makes out.

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Scottish Independence Referendum on 20:08 - Jun 28 with 2678 viewsJosebadleg

There's the G-I-UK gap which an important security feature for UK.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/GIUK_gap

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Scottish Independence Referendum on 20:21 - Jun 28 with 2654 viewsGlasgowBlue

Scottish Independence Referendum on 19:20 - Jun 28 by Kropotkin123

We had a vote on leaving the EU off the back of the government wanting to appease a few backbenchers and appeal to the support base of UKIP.

Scotland have had their leading party campaign on leaving the union since 2007. The same party has had a majority since 2011. So 15 sustained years of the most popular party wanting to leave the union.

We left the EU, which is a massive change and one which should trigger a revote. People's opinion in England, Wales and Northern Ireland should have no bearing on this. If the union is strong, it will stand, if it isn't, it will fall. The consequences of Brexit should be faced as soon as possible.
[Post edited 28 Jun 2022 19:21]


The SNP do not have a majority,

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Scottish Independence Referendum on 20:23 - Jun 28 with 2657 viewsChurchman

Scottish Independence Referendum on 20:07 - Jun 28 by Cheltenham_Blue

Not the Welsh so I'm repeatedly informed. But Scotland and NI seem destined to go.
Like having a bad tooth removed, its better to get it over and done with.

However, Sturgeon is lying to the Scottish populous about Europe in the same way Brexit was lied about, it certainly won't be easy to just 'rejoin' the EU, it will take anywhere from 12-15 years and she's not being honest about that.

I'm also intrigued as to how Scotland plans to import goods from the EU. Transporting by ship through the north sea is not ideal, and overland through England is out of the question. Overland through Ireland is possible, but anything through NI runs risks around the peace process.

Its not nearly as simple as she makes out.


You are right about the difficulties, but that’s the SNPs problem. It only becomes England’s problem if Sturgeon expects the English to pay for it, which she of course will and we most certainly shouldn’t.

It’d of course require agreement of all members of the EU, which unless Catalonia and the Basque region of Spain get independence isn’t going to happen. Maybe if they concede enough it might.

Scotland has some good ports. It can get its imports through them.
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Scottish Independence Referendum on 20:30 - Jun 28 with 2638 viewsLord_Lucan

Scottish Independence Referendum on 20:23 - Jun 28 by Churchman

You are right about the difficulties, but that’s the SNPs problem. It only becomes England’s problem if Sturgeon expects the English to pay for it, which she of course will and we most certainly shouldn’t.

It’d of course require agreement of all members of the EU, which unless Catalonia and the Basque region of Spain get independence isn’t going to happen. Maybe if they concede enough it might.

Scotland has some good ports. It can get its imports through them.


How many truck loads of lorries go from England to Scotland every day?

Imagine putting each load onto a vessel - and how deep do their ports go? How big a vessel can they accept?

In laymans terms - (I expect Koonty to be on the button here) How will they be able to afford it?

Aren't they in permanent deficit with UK Central?

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Scottish Independence Referendum on 20:32 - Jun 28 with 2631 viewsKropotkin123

Scottish Independence Referendum on 20:21 - Jun 28 by GlasgowBlue

The SNP do not have a majority,


Guessing this is me not being clear enough. They have the majority of Scottish seats in the UK general election. For example 48 out of 59. I understand that more people voted for other parties overall, and they don't have a majority in the Scottish parliament.

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Scottish Independence Referendum on 20:47 - Jun 28 with 2603 viewsSwansea_Blue

Scottish Independence Referendum on 20:30 - Jun 28 by Lord_Lucan

How many truck loads of lorries go from England to Scotland every day?

Imagine putting each load onto a vessel - and how deep do their ports go? How big a vessel can they accept?

In laymans terms - (I expect Koonty to be on the button here) How will they be able to afford it?

Aren't they in permanent deficit with UK Central?


‘Affordability’ is a bit of a non argument. Globally the annual deficit is about $10.5 Trillion, and keeps building so that global debt is now over $225 Trillion. Very few countries run a surplus and it’s not necessary to; economically Scotland would manage just fine, just as many countries their size do.

Untangling them from the union would be the big challenge I’d expect; separation of powers, claims to sea territory/resources, etc. A bit of a geopolitical nightmare. It’d probably kick off the sectarian knobheads as well.
[Post edited 28 Jun 2022 20:51]

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Scottish Independence Referendum on 21:01 - Jun 28 with 2572 viewsChurchman

Scottish Independence Referendum on 20:30 - Jun 28 by Lord_Lucan

How many truck loads of lorries go from England to Scotland every day?

Imagine putting each load onto a vessel - and how deep do their ports go? How big a vessel can they accept?

In laymans terms - (I expect Koonty to be on the button here) How will they be able to afford it?

Aren't they in permanent deficit with UK Central?


I could have listed their ports a few years back and what they can take, but not now. Out of date! They’re actually pretty well provided. The problem they’ll have is different ports do different things and have relationships with particular EU/other ports. It’ll require £billions to put in infrastructure to cater for all their needs,

The problem Scotland will have is the same as with Eire. If you move everything by ship, you add a minimum of a day to your transit time and shedloads to your costs. This is why before Brexit. Channel Tunnel transit for freight was going volume wise through the roof and a good chunk was transit stuff from/to Ireland. Another reason why Brexit was mad.

I don’t see how Scotland will afford it, but Sturgeon’s expectation will be that England pays. That’s how the SNP operated with Devolution work.
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Scottish Independence Referendum on 21:17 - Jun 28 with 2539 viewsLord_Lucan

Scottish Independence Referendum on 21:01 - Jun 28 by Churchman

I could have listed their ports a few years back and what they can take, but not now. Out of date! They’re actually pretty well provided. The problem they’ll have is different ports do different things and have relationships with particular EU/other ports. It’ll require £billions to put in infrastructure to cater for all their needs,

The problem Scotland will have is the same as with Eire. If you move everything by ship, you add a minimum of a day to your transit time and shedloads to your costs. This is why before Brexit. Channel Tunnel transit for freight was going volume wise through the roof and a good chunk was transit stuff from/to Ireland. Another reason why Brexit was mad.

I don’t see how Scotland will afford it, but Sturgeon’s expectation will be that England pays. That’s how the SNP operated with Devolution work.


I agree with much if not all of that - except that they will need the capability to take and offload the super vessels from China carrying thousands upon thousands of shipping containers. I believe some firm has started to ship Ningbo to Greenock only this month but that's not enough capacity - ok so maybe they can improve on this but without using Soton, Felixstowe, Liverpool and Gateway I can't see it.

How will they be able to fund free university's, free prescriptions, free this, free that?

I'm not against the idea by the way - if that's what they want.

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Scottish Independence Referendum on 22:07 - Jun 28 with 2476 viewsTangledupin_Blue

Scottish Independence Referendum on 20:07 - Jun 28 by Cheltenham_Blue

Not the Welsh so I'm repeatedly informed. But Scotland and NI seem destined to go.
Like having a bad tooth removed, its better to get it over and done with.

However, Sturgeon is lying to the Scottish populous about Europe in the same way Brexit was lied about, it certainly won't be easy to just 'rejoin' the EU, it will take anywhere from 12-15 years and she's not being honest about that.

I'm also intrigued as to how Scotland plans to import goods from the EU. Transporting by ship through the north sea is not ideal, and overland through England is out of the question. Overland through Ireland is possible, but anything through NI runs risks around the peace process.

Its not nearly as simple as she makes out.


"Overland through England is out of the question."

Is it?

Why is it?

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Scottish Independence Referendum on 22:14 - Jun 28 with 2425 viewsChurchman

Scottish Independence Referendum on 21:17 - Jun 28 by Lord_Lucan

I agree with much if not all of that - except that they will need the capability to take and offload the super vessels from China carrying thousands upon thousands of shipping containers. I believe some firm has started to ship Ningbo to Greenock only this month but that's not enough capacity - ok so maybe they can improve on this but without using Soton, Felixstowe, Liverpool and Gateway I can't see it.

How will they be able to fund free university's, free prescriptions, free this, free that?

I'm not against the idea by the way - if that's what they want.


Your questions are the same as mine.

As far as containers are concerned, Felixstowe was more than twice the size of the next two container ports. London Gateway is putting stuff in as are others, but the cranes/facilities need money, space, road, rail, tech to support it.

On tech, an independent customs system that works is going to take years to build and cost many millions. That’s before you build all that interlinks with it.

The Scots will get independence. In a democracy, it’s their choice. But it won’t be easy or cheap.
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Scottish Independence Referendum on 22:15 - Jun 28 with 2421 viewstractordownsouth

Probably the biggest argument is that given how much damage Brexit and the disentanglement of a 50 year political and economic relationship with our nearest neighbours has caused, a similar divorce between two nations with a much deeper partnership will be even worse. If Scotland goes back into the EU - which admittedly wont be for a while because they don’t meet the membership criteria - there will need to be a hard border, so the traffic jams in Dover will be replicated in Cumbria and Northumberland.

And for Scotland, at the very least the UK was a net contributor to the EU. Of course the cost of membership was diminished by the economic benefits but Scotland doesn’t even have that because they’re net beneficiaries from the UK treasury.* The problems of regional inequality and a lack of investment are genuine issues but they won’t be solved by walking away from a near trading partner. Just look at how the UK government is trying to increase bankers bonus during a cost of living crisis to cope with the lack of FDI since Brexit. Scexit and Brexit for me are exactly the same thing - it’s a reaction to legitimate problems but almost all economic analysis suggests they’re bad ideas and won’t deal with the issues they claim to solve.

*For what it’s worth this is the entirely correct arrangement and I’m not begrudging it - poorer nations and regions of the union should receive more money.
[Post edited 29 Jun 2022 7:57]

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Scottish Independence Referendum on 07:00 - Jun 29 with 2251 viewsElephantintheRoom

An independent Scotland was and is a vital part of the Brexit plan.

With all those annoying Scottish MPs removed from parliament the Conservatives have an unassailable majority in every election for ever more. Even the TWTD guardian-reading keyboard warriors will vote conservative when the start to need reading glasses

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Scottish Independence Referendum on 07:32 - Jun 29 with 2181 viewsRob88

1. Because the majority of Scottish people don’t want independence.

2. Despite their claims they have a poor track record in government (especially with respect to the vulnerable).

3. The SNP are as credible a party as UKIP (single-issue party).

4. The last one was supposed to be a “a once in a lifetime opportunity”.

5. Can we not have a decade where there isn’t a major crisis/event happening.
[Post edited 29 Jun 2022 7:48]
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Scottish Independence Referendum on 07:50 - Jun 29 with 2137 viewshandslikeplates

I’m only assuming, but wouldn’t an independent Scotland make the Conservative Party stronger in England in terms of percentage of the vote in general elections? For me this would be a disaster, and personally I love Scotland, stronger together and all that.
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Scottish Independence Referendum on 07:56 - Jun 29 with 2072 viewsZXBlue

The biggest reason is that withotu Scotland, the prospects of ever getting Boris and chums out of office is slim.
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Scottish Independence Referendum on 08:00 - Jun 29 with 2055 viewschicoazul

Scottish Independence Referendum on 07:50 - Jun 29 by handslikeplates

I’m only assuming, but wouldn’t an independent Scotland make the Conservative Party stronger in England in terms of percentage of the vote in general elections? For me this would be a disaster, and personally I love Scotland, stronger together and all that.


Yes, which is the point of all this. The country is being broken up and denuded in order to fortify Tory rule. Certain factions want an independent England to become Singapore of Europe.

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Scottish Independence Referendum on 08:09 - Jun 29 with 2048 viewsRob88

Scottish Independence Referendum on 08:00 - Jun 29 by chicoazul

Yes, which is the point of all this. The country is being broken up and denuded in order to fortify Tory rule. Certain factions want an independent England to become Singapore of Europe.


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