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I think things are funnier when we're told we're not supposed to laugh at them any more...if only they'd NOT told us not to laugh at certain things any more Anyway, I'm working on my latest drawing of the prophet Mohamed...
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Do we now live in a post joke world? on 12:01 - Jun 30 with 586 views
Do we now live in a post joke world? on 11:46 - Jun 30 by STYG
I've seen all of Chapelle's stuff on Netflix and he talked about this on one of them didn't he?
If I recall, he made trans jokes which people attacked assuming he was transphobic, he pointed out his close friendship with a trans person, who as you say defended him, then they were piled on and I believe took their own life?
So essentially this trans person had no issues with Chapelle's jokes, which they found to be just jokes and not how he felt, but they couldn't cope with other people telling them they should be offended because they were.
This bizarre situation occurred when the person deemed to be the subject of the joke was aggressively defending the joke against people who were offended and not trans. Believe Gervais did something similar about ending up defending a bigot's right to free speech against people whom he largely agreed with.
If I recall Chappelle promised his trans friend to look after their daughter and how now become very close to them?
The whole thing highlights how people confuse the subject of a joke, which can be about a thing without attacking that thing. In this case Chappelle believed massively in trans rights, but found elements of trans funny and made jokes about them, the same way most of us find humour in pretty much everything else, no matter how dark.
The Gervais joke about the Kardashian crashing their car is testament to this. It was a cleverly constructed joke playing on the stereotype of women drivers, but because it was about Bruce Jenner (I think?) people assumed it was transphobic when it clearly was not.
Yes... she basically kept interrupting his show and was v funny of the cuff but not so much as stand up....it wasnoff the back of that meeting that they became friends and yes she took her own life.
If you haven't seen the bit do try and find it..itbis v funny and v moving. I'll see if I can find a link later when I have time
Do we now live in a post joke world? on 12:01 - Jun 30 by BlueandTruesince82
Yes... she basically kept interrupting his show and was v funny of the cuff but not so much as stand up....it wasnoff the back of that meeting that they became friends and yes she took her own life.
If you haven't seen the bit do try and find it..itbis v funny and v moving. I'll see if I can find a link later when I have time
Do we now live in a post joke world? on 10:15 - Jun 30 by DanTheMan
I think that point (I think you can joke about anything but your probably only should if the context, tone and nuance are right) are what people are usually offended or dislike about certain jokes.
It does all eventually boil down to there are certain things that as a society people won't joke about on the whole. There are some things that are controversial, there are others that are perfectly fine.
It's up to an individual to decide where the line is. I think it's fine to criticise people for making jokes that they feel may be genuinely harmful.
And yes, it's been a pleasant debate :)
"It does all eventually boil down to there are certain things that as a society people won't joke about on the whole."
I think, with this comment, you're still missing the point slightly. No SUBJECT should be off limits - it's the CONTEXT and especially TARGET of the joke that's key.
Trust the process. Trust Phil.
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Do we now live in a post joke world? on 13:19 - Jun 30 with 518 views
Do we now live in a post joke world? on 10:57 - Jun 30 by STYG
This for me is the key thing.
Raab winking at Rayner yesterday was ridiculous. He's an MP at his place of work and that behaviour comes across as slimy and sexist. But if Jim Jeffries is doing it to a woman in the front row of his comedy show, a woman who has gone there knowing he's that type of comedian, then it's a very different context and this is what society struggles with. Context.
I used to love Gervais and still do enjoy After Life and some of the other stuff he's been involved in but I'm not a fan of his latest show and felt similar watching it. I agree he should be able to joke about what he wants and I believe that ultimately there's a reasonable conversation to be had to say why, if he jokes about everything else, should the Trans community be protected from that cover all joking, but it did feel more like it was something he'd not attacked before, so he decided to make it a focal point this time around and it felt a bit too much of an attack. When those kind of jokes are spread around a bit they feel like jokes. When they are so centred around a group, it's hard to defend.
As I may have mentioned before, through my wife's work we have a very mixed group of friends and acquaintances. One was born a man, is trans and dresses entirely as a mermaid. They found the Gervais stuff hilarious and defended it on social media and 2 or 3 of their trans friends agreed and about 10 were massively offended.
But one Twitter user on either side of the argument will post their feelings and it'll gain massive traction and when it's someone offended, it's easy to believe that every trans person, or gay person or black person shares that view, when it's so much more individual to that persons experience and, like the couple at the Boyle show I mentioned, it's hard for anyone else looking in to know what is genuinely offensive and what is over-sensitivity on the part of the individual, let alone the fact that it's been said at a comedy show where people know it's to be expected, not on the One Show or an ITV advert where it's intended to cause offence.
Like I said, people don't find a porn magazine, take a photo and post it on Twitter saying it's disgusting and the magazine needs to be shut down do they? So it seems odd to do it with anything else you don't agree with but have stumbled across. But again, as a straight, white, middle aged man, it's not for me to determine what others who have suffered racism, transphobia, sexism or homophobia should feel, but it is worth remembering that some people are offended because what is said is offensive generally and others because it's struck a nerve with them individually and not the majority and that's where it gets tricky.
The other week there was a furore on Twitter because someone recalled a story about Prince Charles I think calling someone a monkey and people went mental. It turned out the person he was speaking about was white but nobody seemed to check that before calling him a racist. So again, comedy struggles when it's shared outside it's intended audience, because you lose context and it can become offensive at that stage, if it wasn't before.
Great posts but what's your wifes' job is what I want to know?
"They break our legs and tell us to be grateful when they offer us crutches."
Do we now live in a post joke world? on 13:19 - Jun 30 by BanksterDebtSlave
Great posts but what's your wifes' job is what I want to know?
I won't go into the full details, but it involves working with a number of LGBTQ+ groups, amongst others, and I've been a +1 at a few events where they have been some really lovely people from pretty much every walk of life and every life story.
Most decent people know this, but almost every single one of us was created because our Dad was in the mood to get jiggy with it and not one of us had any input into whether we were born rich or poor, man or woman, black or white, straight or gay or whether we'd end up feeling we weren't not living the life we felt we should be. The fact anybody feels that they are somehow better than anyone else based on anything other than their behaviour is just incredible to me, but the world is sadly full of such people.
[Post edited 30 Jun 2022 13:34]
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Do we now live in a post joke world? on 13:44 - Jun 30 with 473 views
Do we now live in a post joke world? on 13:33 - Jun 30 by STYG
I won't go into the full details, but it involves working with a number of LGBTQ+ groups, amongst others, and I've been a +1 at a few events where they have been some really lovely people from pretty much every walk of life and every life story.
Most decent people know this, but almost every single one of us was created because our Dad was in the mood to get jiggy with it and not one of us had any input into whether we were born rich or poor, man or woman, black or white, straight or gay or whether we'd end up feeling we weren't not living the life we felt we should be. The fact anybody feels that they are somehow better than anyone else based on anything other than their behaviour is just incredible to me, but the world is sadly full of such people.
[Post edited 30 Jun 2022 13:34]
Even the behaviour point, to an extent. I do sincerely believe that some people are less culpable for their behaviour than others.
Do we now live in a post joke world? on 13:44 - Jun 30 by unbelievablue
Even the behaviour point, to an extent. I do sincerely believe that some people are less culpable for their behaviour than others.
There is that too, but it's a complicated argument.
How can one person find it easy to get up and go to the gym when another can't find the motivation. All good saying it's will power but what if one person has more of it than the other.
Dangerous discussion though because you then start getting into the realms of criminal behaviour or sick acts and asking the moral question of if they could just not do it, like you or I, surely they wouldn't do it.
Everyone has different experiences, and to know someone you have to have a bit of an understanding of their journey up to that point, but ultimately, unless there are serious learning difficulties involved, we should all, by a certain age, know what things are not acceptable, but there is definitely an argument that biologically staying the correct side of that line is not as easy for everybody.
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Do we now live in a post joke world? on 14:56 - Jun 30 with 427 views
Do we now live in a post joke world? on 10:18 - Jun 30 by unbelievablue
A very well reasoned post.
Re: Gervais, I have no issue with the Trans stuff in terms of being offended (either myself or on behalf of the Trans community), but I do find it very un-funny, and turned off his latest stand-up because of it. If that's the comedy he's leaning towards peddling (e.g. I'm allowed to say what I want about Trans people in the name of comedy har har har) then he's no longer of much interest to me to be honest.
In fact I've never thought his stand up was very good.
The other side of the coin is the linked Gervais sketch on Trans focussing on points that I think other historically marginalised or discriminated against groups like lesbians and cis women would see as speaking for them, and which they'd find very funny
One man's plantburger and all that
[Post edited 30 Jun 2022 14:56]
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Do we now live in a post joke world? on 15:45 - Jun 30 with 392 views
Do we now live in a post joke world? on 08:50 - Jun 30 by DanTheMan
Weird how we live in a post joke society and yet that's still publicly available, the comments under it are very supportive and Ricky Gervais still has a very good career.
For me, that's a joke that's about the extremes on both sides of the argument and laughing at the ridiculousness (in many ways it could be taking the piss out of a TWTD thread!) rather than an attack on trans women. It's also taken out of context - deliberately, I'd suggest, in order to make people angry. He's doing a bit where he's playing the role of an asshole - and even explains that people laugh because they know it's the wrong thing and they know these aren't his real beliefs. It's that tension... and then release when you realise it's not real... that provides the humour. A lot of humour is based on thinking it's going to be one thing, and then you get an 'ah ha' moment when you realise you've been had and it's something else.
You need to see the whole show, you need to know what Gervais is really like, and you need a modicum of intelligence (even though he explains it as well). They're not just straight up subtle-less offensive gags in the vein of say Jim Davidson - but some people will, particularly from seeing an isolated clip by a comedian they don't know well enough, see it like that.
It's also in the context of a comedy gig. He wouldn't say such things at say a trans support group. I think it was Gervais, again, who explained it thus: people getting offended and taking things personally is like someone putting a sign up in a village saying "Guitar lessons" and then him phoning the number and screaming at them "BUT I DON'T WANT GUITAR LESSONS!!!"
Basically, it's not intended for you. He hasn't come into your house and told that joke. So don't worry about it.
Trust the process. Trust Phil.
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Do we now live in a post joke world? on 16:16 - Jun 30 with 378 views
Do we now live in a post joke world? on 15:45 - Jun 30 by The_Flashing_Smile
For me, that's a joke that's about the extremes on both sides of the argument and laughing at the ridiculousness (in many ways it could be taking the piss out of a TWTD thread!) rather than an attack on trans women. It's also taken out of context - deliberately, I'd suggest, in order to make people angry. He's doing a bit where he's playing the role of an asshole - and even explains that people laugh because they know it's the wrong thing and they know these aren't his real beliefs. It's that tension... and then release when you realise it's not real... that provides the humour. A lot of humour is based on thinking it's going to be one thing, and then you get an 'ah ha' moment when you realise you've been had and it's something else.
You need to see the whole show, you need to know what Gervais is really like, and you need a modicum of intelligence (even though he explains it as well). They're not just straight up subtle-less offensive gags in the vein of say Jim Davidson - but some people will, particularly from seeing an isolated clip by a comedian they don't know well enough, see it like that.
It's also in the context of a comedy gig. He wouldn't say such things at say a trans support group. I think it was Gervais, again, who explained it thus: people getting offended and taking things personally is like someone putting a sign up in a village saying "Guitar lessons" and then him phoning the number and screaming at them "BUT I DON'T WANT GUITAR LESSONS!!!"
Basically, it's not intended for you. He hasn't come into your house and told that joke. So don't worry about it.
I am aware of how comedy and context works.
Also, I'm not worried about it, I just didn't find the joke funny personally. I didn't even know that clip existed until it was posted here.
In regards to your other post, I am also aware that context and target are key. My point was I disagreed with the statement that either all jokes are OK or none of them are as I believe that missed some key nuance, which is basically what you've explained.
Do we now live in a post joke world? on 16:16 - Jun 30 by DanTheMan
I am aware of how comedy and context works.
Also, I'm not worried about it, I just didn't find the joke funny personally. I didn't even know that clip existed until it was posted here.
In regards to your other post, I am also aware that context and target are key. My point was I disagreed with the statement that either all jokes are OK or none of them are as I believe that missed some key nuance, which is basically what you've explained.
The stamenet was never that all jokes are ok or none its that any subject is fair game, but as we have all agreed it rather depends on the nature of the joke
Do we now live in a post joke world? on 09:24 - Jun 30 by Dubtractor
The whole thing is quite simple really isn't it?
Anyone is free to make jokes as they please, pretty much, but equally some may find those jokes unpleasant or unfunny. That doesn't stop people making the jokes, as illustrated by your Gervais link above, which is why the whole 'cancel culture' narrative is horse sh1t. No one is stopping anyone from making jokes, just on occasion perhaps stating that making those jokes is poor form. As you rightly identify, punching down is pretty weak comedy.
People like Gervais and Martin Amis who cry about this topic; you have to wonder what they feel they can’t say.
In the spirit of reconciliation and happiness at the end of the Banter Era (RIP) and as a result of promotion I have cleared out my ignore list. Look forwards to reading your posts!
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