| Anyone else read the FT today? Time to truly fess up to Brexit isn’t it?! 21:12 - Jul 1 with 5077 views | unstableblue |
And try and do something tangible to resolve it.
Firstly if you voted Brexit, then you were duped, completely. The government advice (a Tory government) was clear we’d get a decade of economic pain - did you not read that?! Or were you listening to Farage or The Daily Mail, or christ Boris.
Those who did, need to start taking responsibility, admit the error, and start making some noise, rather than hiding like a monkey with hands over its eyes.
Brexit is causing very long term damage to Uk PLC, these figures are the worst on record, and it’s now no longer time to hide behind covid.
We need to stop the jingoistic silliness of the Tory backbench that got us hear, start firstly by getting serious about the NI protocol.
Because I’m afraid brexiteers cannot continue to use Europe as a political football, something to bash and blame. This was by far our biggest market, what madness to make it difficult to trade with.
Stop talking about stupid meaningless trade deals to make silly little headlines. Get round the table, go cap in hand, admit we fecked up.
This is our childrens future?!
And what is that? England as a nation standing on its own, watching GB News, being lied to by a Tory government and media, and trying to align with the USA - a country who’s right wing populism is destroying it - and moving away from a centrist European project trying to have sensible conversations about the environment.
Rant over. But come on, we need to wake up. |  |
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| Ahem on 09:34 - Jul 2 with 777 views | Dyland |
| Anyone else read the FT today? Time to truly fess up to Brexit isn’t it?! on 09:01 - Jul 2 by ElephantintheRoom |
Sorry but that is cobblers. The problem is not Brexit per say, but the type of Brexit we’ve ended up with - a sort of unworkable unfinished compromise allied to what must surely be the most incompetent and self harming government in history.
Remain tended to mean one thing. Brexit meant many things so was more popular because of perceived advantages - and thus will always cause conflict. It was entirely possible to leave the bloated, wasteful EU political system but remain in the single market. The fact that the Conservative government chose not to do so is not the fault of Brexit - but the fault of 200 self-serving and/or deranged politicians. The problem cannot be solved under the current political system.
And I say that as a remoaner who moved to France rather than stay in Brexit Britain |
per se |  |
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| Anyone else read the FT today? Time to truly fess up to Brexit isn’t it?! on 09:35 - Jul 2 with 772 views | ElephantintheRoom |
| Anyone else read the FT today? Time to truly fess up to Brexit isn’t it?! on 09:10 - Jul 2 by Wacko |
Not true. A lot of the old who voted leave have since passed away and the electorate is being replenished with people with long term sense. Brexit was hopefully the last protest vote of a dying breed |
A bit arrogant. Yes a huge percentage of the Brexit vote was a protest vote. But it was a protest about more of the same - which was not entirely attractive to many people after years of austerity in seats where the same political party gets in every time So it attracted a lot of people who had never voted or had given up voting.
I’m not sure Europe was even an issue with voters before Cameron’s spineless idiocy - hence UKIP never having a sniff in general elections. |  |
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| Anyone else read the FT today? Time to truly fess up to Brexit isn’t it?! on 09:39 - Jul 2 with 761 views | Dyland |
| Anyone else read the FT today? Time to truly fess up to Brexit isn’t it?! on 22:33 - Jul 1 by CBBlue |
To be fair to my husband, he didn't vote for 'this' brexit. However as I keep reminding him what the hell did he expect with this lot in charge. He had a softer brexit in mind (kept going on about Norway) and basically he voted for the brexit he would like and not what was obviously going to happen with all the right wing loons in charge.
I was surprised how many people I knew actually voted for it, many due to specific issues that they felt affected them rather than viewing the whole picture. I lost a lot of respect for a lot of people that day. |
"... basically he voted for the brexit he would like and not what was obviously going to happen with all the right wing loons in charge."
A fine and simple truism. Sorry about the rows though :) | |
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| Anyone else read the FT today? Time to truly fess up to Brexit isn’t it?! on 09:41 - Jul 2 with 765 views | unstableblue |
| Anyone else read the FT today? Time to truly fess up to Brexit isn’t it?! on 09:01 - Jul 2 by ElephantintheRoom |
Sorry but that is cobblers. The problem is not Brexit per say, but the type of Brexit we’ve ended up with - a sort of unworkable unfinished compromise allied to what must surely be the most incompetent and self harming government in history.
Remain tended to mean one thing. Brexit meant many things so was more popular because of perceived advantages - and thus will always cause conflict. It was entirely possible to leave the bloated, wasteful EU political system but remain in the single market. The fact that the Conservative government chose not to do so is not the fault of Brexit - but the fault of 200 self-serving and/or deranged politicians. The problem cannot be solved under the current political system.
And I say that as a remoaner who moved to France rather than stay in Brexit Britain |
Beg to differ.
And I’m not putting up these ramblings cause I get pleasure from them. I’m just telling you that UK economic model - which is pretty messed up anyway, given the wages gap and lack of certain sectors - is creaking and we are just not exporting enough and we have crippled inward investment.
What you’re suggesting is that had we arranged a soft soft Brexit we’d not being having these very deep set issues. Neither the EU nor these batsh!t crazy Tory backbenchers were ever going to allow that, or even close.
So there was never a form of Leave that was going to not cause major harm.
The government itself estimated a minimum of a decade of economic self harm.
https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attac
This wasn’t rocket science… and I’d suggest given the NI border challenge, Brexit was underestimated further. And of course Remain were quite clear, see below, whereas Leave could pull some pretty dirty tricks - see Boris bus:
“Voting to leave the EU would create years of uncertainty and potential economic disruption. This would reduce investment and cost jobs.
The Government judges it could result in 10 years or more of uncertainty as the UK unpicks our relationship with the EU and renegotiates new arrangements with the EU and over 50 other countries around the world.
Some argue that we could strike a good deal quickly with the EU because they want to keep access to our market.
But the Government’s judgement is that it would be much harder than that — less than 8% of EU exports come to the UK while 44% of UK exports go to the EU.
No other country has managed to secure significant access to the Single Market, without having to:
- follow EU rules over which they have no real say
- pay into the EU
- accept EU citizens living and working in their country
A more limited trade deal with the EU would give the UK less access to the Single Market than we have now — including for services, which make up almost 80% of the UK economy. For example, Canada’s deal with the EU will give limited access for services, it has so far been seven years in the making.” [Post edited 2 Jul 2022 9:42]
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| Anyone else read the FT today? Time to truly fess up to Brexit isn’t it?! on 09:49 - Jul 2 with 766 views | bluelagos |
| Anyone else read the FT today? Time to truly fess up to Brexit isn’t it?! on 03:30 - Jul 2 by BigCommon |
Calling people stupid, or duped. Is not the best way to win them over.. i assume the aim is to try and win people over?? For a moment I thought you were just looking for upvotes from those that already share your views?...
I voted Brexit, because my wages were halved over two decades of cheap foreign labor flooding the labor market and working for peanuts.. Saw my local businesses suffer. Because money earned here, was being sent back home to the EU , by said foreign workers. Instead of being spent on our high streets... You don't need to be duped by anyone, when your house gets repossessed and your family gets broken...
Your sh1tty little post is meaningless mate. Unless you show some empathy. Instead of belittling. You won't win anyone over . And you need to. Because there weren't enough of you to begin with... You lost in the referendum , remember? |
Couple of points.
Agree with you that calling people stupid is unlikely to change anyone's position. Something many of my fellow remainers often fail to appreciate.
I'd challenge you on the same point ref pointing out people were duped. I think this is a very fair criticism of those who pushed the Brexit case. They promised lots of things, lots of benefits and yet many of those promises have been shown to be unfulfilled now we have brexited. I think it perfectly fair to point out the many lies told and that many people were sold a pup.
The other point you miss is that of voter change. The elderly (brexit minded) are dieing off and replaced by (remain minded) younguns. The 52-48 split would be unlikely to be repeated.
That said, I accept where we are. Think we need to let it play out and maybe seek a consensus amongst the populace before seeking to rejoin or seek single market membership.
Your point on lower salaries from EU membership (due to migration) doesn't seem to be have been addressed by y our leaving. Al I see is labour shortages and I don't see lots of higher wages (there are some for sure, like lorry drivers)
But to come back to where you started, yep, far better to make the argument rather than name calling (stupid) which is far too prevalent on here. Appreciate your input and clearly sounds as if EU membership didn't deliver for you personally. Which was clearly a driver for Brexit, a failure to share the benefits more widely. |  |
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| Anyone else read the FT today? Time to truly fess up to Brexit isn’t it?! on 09:56 - Jul 2 with 747 views | Darth_Koont |
We all know about Farage, Johnson, Cummings et al’s lies/“clever politics” to deliver the mandate, we also need to address how or why our political establishment then managed to deliver the hardest possible Brexit.
Theresa May has a lot to answer for. Pivoting to a hard Brexit at the first opportunity for some insane combination of personal power/Tory party unity really set the wheels in motion. And the Remainer establishment made matters worse by continuing to fight the result and hardening both the resolve but also the terms of the Brexiteers.
I could accept a couple of moments of madness but we’re talking of the worst possible result for the UK even after years of debate and Brexit dominating everything else. That’s a failed system at work right there. |  |
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| Anyone else read the FT today? Time to truly fess up to Brexit isn’t it?! on 09:56 - Jul 2 with 746 views | Dyland |
| Anyone else read the FT today? Time to truly fess up to Brexit isn’t it?! on 22:50 - Jul 1 by Swansea_Blue |
This is the thing. What Brexit meant was never defined, but the people pushing it and funding the promotion of it were free marketeers who wanted 100% divergence so they could be free of any EU regulation (on standards, environment protection, regulation, etc). And they’re still at it.
A Norway-type deal would have been far better, but still begs the question why bother? Less benefits for most of the cost and you still have regulatory alignment. And critically, would still have freedom of movement. I don’t see why you’d downgrade from full membership to SM membership only, but there we are. I’d take it now though.
Fair play to you for being in a marriage with a split on this. Must be challenging. I couldn’t cope with that, but then I was directly effected and it cost me my job. So I’m a bit bitter and always will be! |
I was on a depressing call yesterday about the Intellectual Property Office's first decision post Brexit being to seriously undermine the UK's copyright framework (you know, something that protects rights holders, creativity, arts, and democracy, even civilised society... I can elaborate if anyone is interested) and billions upon billions of UK based revenue in favour of global (tech) companies where we won't see a penny, largely. It's all happening due to ignorance and incompetence.
George Freeman is yet another minister overseeing something they a) have no interest in and b) don't understand. It wouldn't surprise me if he doesn't even know about the IPO's decision around AI text and data mining, which is the current red flag.
We've watched clueless ministers for Intellectual Property fook up policy for two decades. Now Brexit has come along there are no boundaries to keep them in check.
Anyone who thinks it doesn't matter and doesn't care about IP rights, is a lemming on their way to the slaughter. It's a really big deal and is about rights and individuals and democracy vs corporate autocracy, and creativity vs clicks, and independent freedom of speech vs tech hegemony. [Post edited 2 Jul 2022 9:58]
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| Anyone else read the FT today? Time to truly fess up to Brexit isn’t it?! on 09:57 - Jul 2 with 751 views | fab_lover |
When we joined what became the EU, back in the 70s after a referendum (I'm just old enough to remember the posters) I believe we voted something like 70/30 in favour.
The problems we have now are:
- it's human nature to "double down" on bad decisions, rather than to admit one is wrong, aka the "gambler's fallacy";
- people have short attention spans, and get bored. "Boris" saying "get Brexit done" was elected basically because people had had enough of the debate and wanted to move on;
- we're living in a "post truth" world. People don't want the truth, just the confirmation of their prejudices. It's why after 12 years of Tory rule, the words "but Labour..." can be added to any debate about why everything is so pants at present. It must be the fault of someone other than the party you voted for, because how can you have been wrong ?
Personally, I doubt that this decade we will get to the point of 70% of the electorate wanting the decision to be re-visited. There is then the issue that we will never get the old deal back, ever.
I'm 55 and wonder whether we will be back "in" in my lifetime. It makes me almost literally weep. But there we go. |  | | |
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| Anyone else read the FT today? Time to truly fess up to Brexit isn’t it?! on 10:07 - Jul 2 with 728 views | BlueBadger |
| Anyone else read the FT today? Time to truly fess up to Brexit isn’t it?! on 09:01 - Jul 2 by ElephantintheRoom |
Sorry but that is cobblers. The problem is not Brexit per say, but the type of Brexit we’ve ended up with - a sort of unworkable unfinished compromise allied to what must surely be the most incompetent and self harming government in history.
Remain tended to mean one thing. Brexit meant many things so was more popular because of perceived advantages - and thus will always cause conflict. It was entirely possible to leave the bloated, wasteful EU political system but remain in the single market. The fact that the Conservative government chose not to do so is not the fault of Brexit - but the fault of 200 self-serving and/or deranged politicians. The problem cannot be solved under the current political system.
And I say that as a remoaner who moved to France rather than stay in Brexit Britain |
'The problem is not Brexit per say, but the type of Brexit we’ve ended up with'
So, it IS Brexit? |  |
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| Anyone else read the FT today? Time to truly fess up to Brexit isn’t it?! on 10:09 - Jul 2 with 716 views | BlueBadger |
| Anyone else read the FT today? Time to truly fess up to Brexit isn’t it?! on 03:30 - Jul 2 by BigCommon |
Calling people stupid, or duped. Is not the best way to win them over.. i assume the aim is to try and win people over?? For a moment I thought you were just looking for upvotes from those that already share your views?...
I voted Brexit, because my wages were halved over two decades of cheap foreign labor flooding the labor market and working for peanuts.. Saw my local businesses suffer. Because money earned here, was being sent back home to the EU , by said foreign workers. Instead of being spent on our high streets... You don't need to be duped by anyone, when your house gets repossessed and your family gets broken...
Your sh1tty little post is meaningless mate. Unless you show some empathy. Instead of belittling. You won't win anyone over . And you need to. Because there weren't enough of you to begin with... You lost in the referendum , remember? |
People WERE lied to and duped over Brexit though.
The misrepresentations, distortions, piein-the-sky promises and outright lies were endemic from the Leave campaign. | |
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| Anyone else read the FT today? Time to truly fess up to Brexit isn’t it?! on 10:13 - Jul 2 with 701 views | Darth_Koont |
| Anyone else read the FT today? Time to truly fess up to Brexit isn’t it?! on 10:07 - Jul 2 by BlueBadger |
'The problem is not Brexit per say, but the type of Brexit we’ve ended up with'
So, it IS Brexit? |
No, it’s definitely the type of Brexit we’ve ended up with that is the main problem.
Norway-style or similar would have been a walk in the park, but we ended up going full Brexit. | |
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| Anyone else read the FT today? Time to truly fess up to Brexit isn’t it?! on 10:15 - Jul 2 with 691 views | unstableblue |
| Anyone else read the FT today? Time to truly fess up to Brexit isn’t it?! on 09:49 - Jul 2 by bluelagos |
Couple of points.
Agree with you that calling people stupid is unlikely to change anyone's position. Something many of my fellow remainers often fail to appreciate.
I'd challenge you on the same point ref pointing out people were duped. I think this is a very fair criticism of those who pushed the Brexit case. They promised lots of things, lots of benefits and yet many of those promises have been shown to be unfulfilled now we have brexited. I think it perfectly fair to point out the many lies told and that many people were sold a pup.
The other point you miss is that of voter change. The elderly (brexit minded) are dieing off and replaced by (remain minded) younguns. The 52-48 split would be unlikely to be repeated.
That said, I accept where we are. Think we need to let it play out and maybe seek a consensus amongst the populace before seeking to rejoin or seek single market membership.
Your point on lower salaries from EU membership (due to migration) doesn't seem to be have been addressed by y our leaving. Al I see is labour shortages and I don't see lots of higher wages (there are some for sure, like lorry drivers)
But to come back to where you started, yep, far better to make the argument rather than name calling (stupid) which is far too prevalent on here. Appreciate your input and clearly sounds as if EU membership didn't deliver for you personally. Which was clearly a driver for Brexit, a failure to share the benefits more widely. |
Good post.
I certainly was not trying to name call; and I used stupid to describe these pathetic trade deals they make noise about, it’s just spin. With the rise in carbon focus, Australia trade deals over local trade will become even more meaningless.
The essence of my post is this:
“Those who did, need to start taking responsibility, admit the error, and start making some noise, rather than hiding like a monkey with hands over its eyes.”
Yes a bit aggressive perhaps, and I agree what we need now is to come together. But just too many people reading this post are not understanding what we’re doing to our economic fundamentals, and are not being honest in the can of worms we have opened (take Northern Ireland, the sh!t hasn’t even started on this, we’re planning to break a treaty)
Your point on lower salaries is well made, higher salaries come from skilled sectors, and that is what we’re decimating. And that’s what people are missing. | |
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| Anyone else read the FT today? Time to truly fess up to Brexit isn’t it?! on 10:24 - Jul 2 with 682 views | Darth_Koont |
| Anyone else read the FT today? Time to truly fess up to Brexit isn’t it?! on 10:15 - Jul 2 by unstableblue |
Good post.
I certainly was not trying to name call; and I used stupid to describe these pathetic trade deals they make noise about, it’s just spin. With the rise in carbon focus, Australia trade deals over local trade will become even more meaningless.
The essence of my post is this:
“Those who did, need to start taking responsibility, admit the error, and start making some noise, rather than hiding like a monkey with hands over its eyes.”
Yes a bit aggressive perhaps, and I agree what we need now is to come together. But just too many people reading this post are not understanding what we’re doing to our economic fundamentals, and are not being honest in the can of worms we have opened (take Northern Ireland, the sh!t hasn’t even started on this, we’re planning to break a treaty)
Your point on lower salaries is well made, higher salaries come from skilled sectors, and that is what we’re decimating. And that’s what people are missing. |
Also that if the goal was more trade with Australia, Germany had a trade surplus with Australia while we had a trade deficit within the EU.
It wasn’t the EU that was holding us back. It’s been a deeper and more systematic economic discrepancy at work here. Ditto the dissatisfaction and disillusionment that drove so much of the Brexit protest vote.
We need to start dealing with underlying causes rather than triangulating around their effects and heading down these dangerous dead ends. [Post edited 2 Jul 2022 10:34]
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| Anyone else read the FT today? Time to truly fess up to Brexit isn’t it?! on 11:22 - Jul 2 with 625 views | Wacko |
| Anyone else read the FT today? Time to truly fess up to Brexit isn’t it?! on 09:35 - Jul 2 by ElephantintheRoom |
A bit arrogant. Yes a huge percentage of the Brexit vote was a protest vote. But it was a protest about more of the same - which was not entirely attractive to many people after years of austerity in seats where the same political party gets in every time So it attracted a lot of people who had never voted or had given up voting.
I’m not sure Europe was even an issue with voters before Cameron’s spineless idiocy - hence UKIP never having a sniff in general elections. |
I call it a protest vote because I can't think of any other legitimate justification for doing so. People were being brainwashed into thinking their compromised life circumstances were caused by anything else other than the greed of bankers and the subsequent 2008 economic crash. Therefore immigrants / EU bureaucracy / delete where applicable / got the blame instead | |
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| Anyone else read the FT today? Time to truly fess up to Brexit isn’t it?! on 11:33 - Jul 2 with 624 views | Darth_Koont |
| Anyone else read the FT today? Time to truly fess up to Brexit isn’t it?! on 11:22 - Jul 2 by Wacko |
I call it a protest vote because I can't think of any other legitimate justification for doing so. People were being brainwashed into thinking their compromised life circumstances were caused by anything else other than the greed of bankers and the subsequent 2008 economic crash. Therefore immigrants / EU bureaucracy / delete where applicable / got the blame instead |
Agreed.
Brexit was a massive misdirection from real issues and systemic failures. And a misdirection that New Labour and the Tories fed by tapping into anti-immigrant and anti-EU rhetoric without even attempting to make the underlying socio-economic case for both.
When UKIP was on the rise they tried to co-opt those voters rather than re-define the discussion. That’s why the Brexit referendum was stupidly on the agenda in the first place and it was a gift to the populist Farage, Johnson, Gove and Cummings to rally their forces around.
In hindsight, there’s such an inevitability about where we are now. And I feel particularly underserved by our political media in all this. Politicians will do what politicians want to do unless held to account by journalists and reporters who are meant to have that function in a proper and democratic country. But instead our media has been much more part of the problem all along. | |
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| Anyone else read the FT today? Time to truly fess up to Brexit isn’t it?! on 11:42 - Jul 2 with 607 views | unstableblue |
| Anyone else read the FT today? Time to truly fess up to Brexit isn’t it?! on 09:57 - Jul 2 by fab_lover |
When we joined what became the EU, back in the 70s after a referendum (I'm just old enough to remember the posters) I believe we voted something like 70/30 in favour.
The problems we have now are:
- it's human nature to "double down" on bad decisions, rather than to admit one is wrong, aka the "gambler's fallacy";
- people have short attention spans, and get bored. "Boris" saying "get Brexit done" was elected basically because people had had enough of the debate and wanted to move on;
- we're living in a "post truth" world. People don't want the truth, just the confirmation of their prejudices. It's why after 12 years of Tory rule, the words "but Labour..." can be added to any debate about why everything is so pants at present. It must be the fault of someone other than the party you voted for, because how can you have been wrong ?
Personally, I doubt that this decade we will get to the point of 70% of the electorate wanting the decision to be re-visited. There is then the issue that we will never get the old deal back, ever.
I'm 55 and wonder whether we will be back "in" in my lifetime. It makes me almost literally weep. But there we go. |
Good post.
Everyone’s suffering from confirmation bias.
But whether you’re leave, remain, Tory or labour… we need to stop talking and start doing, stop denying and start calling for action.
This limbo is crippling. We need inward investment and we need surety to get skilled jobs that are higher paid. We’re in a race to the bottom at the moment.
But as this thread confirms we’re all just looking in at the problem.
But what can we do? A post truth Britain with the majority manipulated by right wing media, and no general election till Dec 2024.
I mean we’re so lethargic and toothless that Johnson is still PM after enough poor performance ans actions to toppled 4 prime ministers.
The NHS bus alone should have been enough!! | |
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| Anyone else read the FT today? Time to truly fess up to Brexit isn’t it?! on 11:49 - Jul 2 with 597 views | MattinLondon |
| Anyone else read the FT today? Time to truly fess up to Brexit isn’t it?! on 10:09 - Jul 2 by BlueBadger |
People WERE lied to and duped over Brexit though.
The misrepresentations, distortions, piein-the-sky promises and outright lies were endemic from the Leave campaign. |
I do find it somewhat amusing that a lot of fisherman and farmers who were in favour of Brexit are now the ones moaning about it. Obviously on a human level I have sympathy but not a lot. |  | | |
| Anyone else read the FT today? Time to truly fess up to Brexit isn’t it?! on 12:03 - Jul 2 with 584 views | fab_lover |
| Anyone else read the FT today? Time to truly fess up to Brexit isn’t it?! on 11:42 - Jul 2 by unstableblue |
Good post.
Everyone’s suffering from confirmation bias.
But whether you’re leave, remain, Tory or labour… we need to stop talking and start doing, stop denying and start calling for action.
This limbo is crippling. We need inward investment and we need surety to get skilled jobs that are higher paid. We’re in a race to the bottom at the moment.
But as this thread confirms we’re all just looking in at the problem.
But what can we do? A post truth Britain with the majority manipulated by right wing media, and no general election till Dec 2024.
I mean we’re so lethargic and toothless that Johnson is still PM after enough poor performance ans actions to toppled 4 prime ministers.
The NHS bus alone should have been enough!! |
Thanks.
The NHS bus thing was denied *the morning after the referendum result* so if people were that bothered about it, they wouldn't have - twice - voted for a party that wanted to bring Brexit in.
To answer your question about "what can we do", well, we can pray or whatever for a hung parliament at the next elections, with the Libs in control. We can then pray or whatever for electoral reform and an end to FPTP and to get PR.
Without PR, this country is just like AmeriKKKa, we have a 2 party system and no chance of centrist, sensible views.
But I don't hold out much hope. Frankly, we have a choice as a country to look left - at the USA, or right, at the EU - and we decide almost every time to follow what the septics do.
And finally - the media is right wing because the people are right wing. It is not the director, it is the reflector, and that's a very hard pill to swallow, but it's the reality of the situation. That is what people want to read, and if it wasn't, it wouldn't sell. | | | |
| Anyone else read the FT today? Time to truly fess up to Brexit isn’t it?! on 12:18 - Jul 2 with 565 views | unstableblue |
| Anyone else read the FT today? Time to truly fess up to Brexit isn’t it?! on 12:03 - Jul 2 by fab_lover |
Thanks.
The NHS bus thing was denied *the morning after the referendum result* so if people were that bothered about it, they wouldn't have - twice - voted for a party that wanted to bring Brexit in.
To answer your question about "what can we do", well, we can pray or whatever for a hung parliament at the next elections, with the Libs in control. We can then pray or whatever for electoral reform and an end to FPTP and to get PR.
Without PR, this country is just like AmeriKKKa, we have a 2 party system and no chance of centrist, sensible views.
But I don't hold out much hope. Frankly, we have a choice as a country to look left - at the USA, or right, at the EU - and we decide almost every time to follow what the septics do.
And finally - the media is right wing because the people are right wing. It is not the director, it is the reflector, and that's a very hard pill to swallow, but it's the reality of the situation. That is what people want to read, and if it wasn't, it wouldn't sell. |
I like the cut of your gib young man.
Couple of quick responses:
I don’t think the UK is naturally right wing, I think people believe in the NHS, they believe in taxation for public services, we are actually inclusive in the main. What is happening is Brexit and the media have lurched us to right wing populist views.
This lurch takes into the same trajectory as the US of Stateside… which is so polarised that it is beyond repair, and whose right wing media has created a post truth environment that is cancerous… and due to its success beginning to attract the right here.
As I have stated for Trump to have any political capital following the events since his election loss, is unprecedented in our lifetime.
We must look right to our European cousins, we must move to the centre, we must tackle a new relationship with our nearest market, and we must start to use this to lead on climate change, which will dwarf and amplify the challenges we are discussing today. | |
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| Anyone else read the FT today? Time to truly fess up to Brexit isn’t it?! on 12:30 - Jul 2 with 554 views | Darth_Koont |
| Anyone else read the FT today? Time to truly fess up to Brexit isn’t it?! on 12:18 - Jul 2 by unstableblue |
I like the cut of your gib young man.
Couple of quick responses:
I don’t think the UK is naturally right wing, I think people believe in the NHS, they believe in taxation for public services, we are actually inclusive in the main. What is happening is Brexit and the media have lurched us to right wing populist views.
This lurch takes into the same trajectory as the US of Stateside… which is so polarised that it is beyond repair, and whose right wing media has created a post truth environment that is cancerous… and due to its success beginning to attract the right here.
As I have stated for Trump to have any political capital following the events since his election loss, is unprecedented in our lifetime.
We must look right to our European cousins, we must move to the centre, we must tackle a new relationship with our nearest market, and we must start to use this to lead on climate change, which will dwarf and amplify the challenges we are discussing today. |
I also liked fab’s post. And generally agree with it – although the conclusion that it’s about getting to the centre is more than a bit of a fallacy. Our politics hasn’t even been defined by lurches between the centre and right but more that we’ve been inexorably slipping right for decades.
Our politics have become defined by an inadequate centre promising common sense and a reactionary right promising their own common sense. But true common sense would be looking at where we are failing and could do better on actual evidence-based grounds. Our inability to look left and look at our nearest neighbours rather than the US is our biggest failing. The US have the same inherent two-party battleground of centrism vs. right-wing populism but at least with more opportunities at state and city level to bring in more progressive policies.
In the UK, there’s some of that at local and regional level with councils like Preston and Ayr plus Drakeford in Wales and even the centrist SNP government pitching left in many areas. But at Westminster level and with their reach into the majority of local and regional government too, we’re mostly still stuck in the pointless bubble going round and round and always letting the right have its say one way or another.
Re: the “common sense” angle, and just to try to simplify it, we seem stuck with the common sense of the status quo (the centre) and the common sense of the often imaginary past (the right). The common sense of the future and making society better for people (the left) has been largely ignored. Overall that accounts for a regressive slide right. [Post edited 2 Jul 2022 12:34]
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| Anyone else read the FT today? Time to truly fess up to Brexit isn’t it?! on 12:33 - Jul 2 with 550 views | fab_lover |
| Anyone else read the FT today? Time to truly fess up to Brexit isn’t it?! on 12:18 - Jul 2 by unstableblue |
I like the cut of your gib young man.
Couple of quick responses:
I don’t think the UK is naturally right wing, I think people believe in the NHS, they believe in taxation for public services, we are actually inclusive in the main. What is happening is Brexit and the media have lurched us to right wing populist views.
This lurch takes into the same trajectory as the US of Stateside… which is so polarised that it is beyond repair, and whose right wing media has created a post truth environment that is cancerous… and due to its success beginning to attract the right here.
As I have stated for Trump to have any political capital following the events since his election loss, is unprecedented in our lifetime.
We must look right to our European cousins, we must move to the centre, we must tackle a new relationship with our nearest market, and we must start to use this to lead on climate change, which will dwarf and amplify the challenges we are discussing today. |
Young man ! I'll take that at 55.
It's very hard to make the argument that this country is left wing when there hasn't been a left wing government in power in the last 5 decades. New Labour had to abolish clause 4 to get into power, remember ?
"Boris", whom remember the electorate STILL prefer to Starmer (bangs head in despair) is the epitome of the public's love of toffs and the desire to tug the forelock. As is, despite more and more evidence that they interfere with laws to protect their wealth, our mania over the Royals. As the Jam put it many years ago, you can't compete with a tie and a crest.
And I still say that the media is a reflector. I canvassed for Labour at the last elections, part of that in a new council housing estate thanks to our Labour council in Ipswich, and people there STILL wouldn't vote Labour (bangs head again).
I'll tell you a quick anecdote about an experience in Germany last month. I'm with my friends, sitting in their garden, when someone from the street walks up and has a quick chat with my friend.
"What did they want ?" I said.
"Oh, they noticed we have a lot of cherries on the tree in front of our garden" my host said, "and asked if they could have some. Of course, I said yes"
"Ah, OK" I said, "do you know them ?"
"No, never seen them before."
Now, I can't ever imagine that happening here. And that says it all :-( | | | |
| Anyone else read the FT today? Time to truly fess up to Brexit isn’t it?! on 14:31 - Jul 2 with 491 views | Churchman |
| Anyone else read the FT today? Time to truly fess up to Brexit isn’t it?! on 12:33 - Jul 2 by fab_lover |
Young man ! I'll take that at 55.
It's very hard to make the argument that this country is left wing when there hasn't been a left wing government in power in the last 5 decades. New Labour had to abolish clause 4 to get into power, remember ?
"Boris", whom remember the electorate STILL prefer to Starmer (bangs head in despair) is the epitome of the public's love of toffs and the desire to tug the forelock. As is, despite more and more evidence that they interfere with laws to protect their wealth, our mania over the Royals. As the Jam put it many years ago, you can't compete with a tie and a crest.
And I still say that the media is a reflector. I canvassed for Labour at the last elections, part of that in a new council housing estate thanks to our Labour council in Ipswich, and people there STILL wouldn't vote Labour (bangs head again).
I'll tell you a quick anecdote about an experience in Germany last month. I'm with my friends, sitting in their garden, when someone from the street walks up and has a quick chat with my friend.
"What did they want ?" I said.
"Oh, they noticed we have a lot of cherries on the tree in front of our garden" my host said, "and asked if they could have some. Of course, I said yes"
"Ah, OK" I said, "do you know them ?"
"No, never seen them before."
Now, I can't ever imagine that happening here. And that says it all :-( |
I’m not sure what your story about somebody in Germany giving cherries away means. Are you saying everybody in this country are all mean spirited and selfish? If so, I’d have to disagree. For every bonehead that filled their house with toilet rolls during the pandemic, there were many others, for example, who gave up their time with acts of kindness, offers of help, money raising (Captain Tom) including the many neighbours who offered to shop for my dad.
The unpleasant, the selfish and the stupid get the attention, those who are not don’t, in my view.
As for Starmer, his profile is low. People know Johnson and that’s to Starmers advantage. I hope he keeps a low profile. Opposition don’t win elections, the incumbents lose them and Johnson’s disgraceful shower are toast. |  | | |
| Anyone else read the FT today? Time to truly fess up to Brexit isn’t it?! on 14:42 - Jul 2 with 484 views | jeera |
| Anyone else read the FT today? Time to truly fess up to Brexit isn’t it?! on 03:30 - Jul 2 by BigCommon |
Calling people stupid, or duped. Is not the best way to win them over.. i assume the aim is to try and win people over?? For a moment I thought you were just looking for upvotes from those that already share your views?...
I voted Brexit, because my wages were halved over two decades of cheap foreign labor flooding the labor market and working for peanuts.. Saw my local businesses suffer. Because money earned here, was being sent back home to the EU , by said foreign workers. Instead of being spent on our high streets... You don't need to be duped by anyone, when your house gets repossessed and your family gets broken...
Your sh1tty little post is meaningless mate. Unless you show some empathy. Instead of belittling. You won't win anyone over . And you need to. Because there weren't enough of you to begin with... You lost in the referendum , remember? |
"Saw my local businesses suffer. Because money earned here, was being sent back home to the EU , by said foreign workers. Instead of being spent on our high streets."
How does that work please?
The only way that can make sense is if these European workers you speak of drove out local residents in their droves, therefore replacing them and their input to the high street.
Their presence wouldn't stop the locals spending wherever they liked so not getting that bit at all.
Are you sure your high street hasn't just suffered from the same problems as every other high street inasmuch that online shopping has become so popular?
Or are you definitely sure that local business suffered because 'foreigners'.
Cost of living is higher since, with housing at beyond absurd levels.
Now that is one thing I didn't see coming as I actually thought housing costs might come down a little, (expecting less demand), but of course, it's just been replaced by wealthy people property snatching more than ever driving prices even higher. [Post edited 2 Jul 2022 14:44]
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| Anyone else read the FT today? Time to truly fess up to Brexit isn’t it?! on 14:46 - Jul 2 with 476 views | ElephantintheRoom |
| Anyone else read the FT today? Time to truly fess up to Brexit isn’t it?! on 09:41 - Jul 2 by unstableblue |
Beg to differ.
And I’m not putting up these ramblings cause I get pleasure from them. I’m just telling you that UK economic model - which is pretty messed up anyway, given the wages gap and lack of certain sectors - is creaking and we are just not exporting enough and we have crippled inward investment.
What you’re suggesting is that had we arranged a soft soft Brexit we’d not being having these very deep set issues. Neither the EU nor these batsh!t crazy Tory backbenchers were ever going to allow that, or even close.
So there was never a form of Leave that was going to not cause major harm.
The government itself estimated a minimum of a decade of economic self harm.
https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attac
This wasn’t rocket science… and I’d suggest given the NI border challenge, Brexit was underestimated further. And of course Remain were quite clear, see below, whereas Leave could pull some pretty dirty tricks - see Boris bus:
“Voting to leave the EU would create years of uncertainty and potential economic disruption. This would reduce investment and cost jobs.
The Government judges it could result in 10 years or more of uncertainty as the UK unpicks our relationship with the EU and renegotiates new arrangements with the EU and over 50 other countries around the world.
Some argue that we could strike a good deal quickly with the EU because they want to keep access to our market.
But the Government’s judgement is that it would be much harder than that — less than 8% of EU exports come to the UK while 44% of UK exports go to the EU.
No other country has managed to secure significant access to the Single Market, without having to:
- follow EU rules over which they have no real say
- pay into the EU
- accept EU citizens living and working in their country
A more limited trade deal with the EU would give the UK less access to the Single Market than we have now — including for services, which make up almost 80% of the UK economy. For example, Canada’s deal with the EU will give limited access for services, it has so far been seven years in the making.” [Post edited 2 Jul 2022 9:42]
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Well yes - BUT most of the problems the UK is suffering are due to ‘Brexit’ meaning different things to different people. I doubt any Brexiteer is happy with the way it’s turning out… not that Brexit as envisaged by many is remotely possible with NI mandated to have open borders to goods and people.
But you can’t escape the fact that leaving the EU and staying in the single market might have been the best solution to a reckless referendum. Like the current situation it wouldn’t make anyone overly happy - but it wouldn’t be as economically crippling, would leave us out of a European Parliament, which many Brits don’t see as democratic as our nest of vipers and perverts, allow us to call European law British law - AND send some doggy migrants back to France - and give the rest if the UK the same economic advantages as Northern Ireland | |
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| Anyone else read the FT today? Time to truly fess up to Brexit isn’t it?! on 16:48 - Jul 2 with 425 views | mylittletown |
| Anyone else read the FT today? Time to truly fess up to Brexit isn’t it?! on 03:30 - Jul 2 by BigCommon |
Calling people stupid, or duped. Is not the best way to win them over.. i assume the aim is to try and win people over?? For a moment I thought you were just looking for upvotes from those that already share your views?...
I voted Brexit, because my wages were halved over two decades of cheap foreign labor flooding the labor market and working for peanuts.. Saw my local businesses suffer. Because money earned here, was being sent back home to the EU , by said foreign workers. Instead of being spent on our high streets... You don't need to be duped by anyone, when your house gets repossessed and your family gets broken...
Your sh1tty little post is meaningless mate. Unless you show some empathy. Instead of belittling. You won't win anyone over . And you need to. Because there weren't enough of you to begin with... You lost in the referendum , remember? |
EU born immigrants were the only group of net contributors to the UK economy before the referendum, so your not being spent on the high street point is simply untrue.
If your local businesses were suffering in 2016, they are going to have a much worse time for the foreseeable future.
There was no popular mandate for Brexit, well under 40% of the electorate voted for it.
Why are you proud of being on the side of the referendum which has condemned your own country to decades of decline and poverty? Or can you, in a constructive and factually based argument, point out some good things which have are are going to happen to our country and our economy? |  | | |
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