| RFU to vote on banning transgender women from women's rugby 16:05 - Jul 25 with 1096 views | unbelievablue |
https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2022/jul/22/rfu-to-vote-on-banning-transgender
In a statement explaining its decision, the RFU said it had looked at the emerging science, consulted with other governing bodies and held a game-wide survey with over 11,000 responses.
It said: “The review and consultation concluded that peer reviewed research provides evidence that there are physical differences between those people whose sex was assigned as male and those as female at birth, and advantages in strength, stamina and physique brought about by male puberty are significant and retained even after testosterone suppression.
“This science provides the basis of the recommendation that the inclusion of trans people assigned male at birth in female contact rugby cannot be balanced against considerations of safety and fairness.”
At the moment, the RFU believes there are six transgender women who are playing community rugby in England. All have had to be cleared and approved by an independent panel, which examined their testosterone levels and whether they posed an increased risk to opponents based on their size and weight. Such rules have also applied to the Premier 15s, though it is understood that no transgender women play in the elite game in England.
However, RFU has now conceded that “the case by case assessment is not without difficulties and can result in players not being permitted to participate”. |  |
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| RFU to vote on banning transgender women from women's rugby on 16:28 - Jul 25 with 1016 views | itfcjoe |
No other option in reality - and whilst a case by case approach is laudable it’s impossible practically and will lead to a further divide and wedge. |  |
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| RFU to vote on banning transgender women from women's rugby on 16:37 - Jul 25 with 1015 views | Darth_Koont |
Awful decision.
Lots of women’s teams are rightly protesting this on Twitter. But probably even a bigger live protest won’t change this.
Depressing as it very much goes against rugby’s strong ethos of inclusion. |  |
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| RFU to vote on banning transgender women from women's rugby on 16:40 - Jul 25 with 999 views | unbelievablue |
| RFU to vote on banning transgender women from women's rugby on 16:37 - Jul 25 by Darth_Koont |
Awful decision.
Lots of women’s teams are rightly protesting this on Twitter. But probably even a bigger live protest won’t change this.
Depressing as it very much goes against rugby’s strong ethos of inclusion. |
FWIW the vote is this Friday, so it hasn't gone through *yet*. | |
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| RFU to vote on banning transgender women from women's rugby on 16:44 - Jul 25 with 988 views | Darth_Koont |
| RFU to vote on banning transgender women from women's rugby on 16:40 - Jul 25 by unbelievablue |
FWIW the vote is this Friday, so it hasn't gone through *yet*. |
The live protest is on Friday I believe.
But just can’t see it now that the transphobic genie is out of the bag. Sport should be a very important way to prevent the marginalising of trans people – which is why women’s sport has become the battleground for the transphobes who will certainly not stop there but use it to push even further. | |
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| RFU to vote on banning transgender women from women's rugby on 16:46 - Jul 25 with 982 views | unbelievablue |
| RFU to vote on banning transgender women from women's rugby on 16:44 - Jul 25 by Darth_Koont |
The live protest is on Friday I believe.
But just can’t see it now that the transphobic genie is out of the bag. Sport should be a very important way to prevent the marginalising of trans people – which is why women’s sport has become the battleground for the transphobes who will certainly not stop there but use it to push even further. |
GQ - if ones thinks that this decision is on the balance of it 'fair' and 'sensible', is one a transphobe? | |
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| RFU to vote on banning transgender women from women's rugby on 17:04 - Jul 25 with 953 views | Darth_Koont |
| RFU to vote on banning transgender women from women's rugby on 16:46 - Jul 25 by unbelievablue |
GQ - if ones thinks that this decision is on the balance of it 'fair' and 'sensible', is one a transphobe? |
Not necessarily.
But I would question whether they’re talking about reality or hypotheticals. This could have been managed more on a case-by-case basis given we’re talking about 7 transwomen I believe.
Rugby and its safety are already built up on safely managing contact moments between players of vastly different size, weight and strength. The idea that transwomen undergoing hormone therapy for a significant time are going to be standout individuals and a danger to others on the pitch doesn’t really hold up that much. And those that believe it clearly haven’t seen the top women or how they play. | |
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| RFU to vote on banning transgender women from women's rugby on 17:30 - Jul 25 with 876 views | itfcjoe |
| RFU to vote on banning transgender women from women's rugby on 16:40 - Jul 25 by unbelievablue |
FWIW the vote is this Friday, so it hasn't gone through *yet*. |
I remember a story about this back in 2018/19 from the Times where refs were leaving the game because they were responsible for safety and didn’t think they could do it - can’t find it now as internet is terrible here | |
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| RFU to vote on banning transgender women from women's rugby on 18:30 - Jul 25 with 800 views | Trequartista |
| RFU to vote on banning transgender women from women's rugby on 16:37 - Jul 25 by Darth_Koont |
Awful decision.
Lots of women’s teams are rightly protesting this on Twitter. But probably even a bigger live protest won’t change this.
Depressing as it very much goes against rugby’s strong ethos of inclusion. |
You can only take inclusion so far. You wouldn't include women in men's rugby because the playing field would not be level, so if the science confirms it, the same surely applies here. |  |
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| RFU to vote on banning transgender women from women's rugby on 18:32 - Jul 25 with 793 views | Darth_Koont |
Completely different issue unless you think all contact should be banned. | |
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| RFU to vote on banning transgender women from women's rugby on 18:33 - Jul 25 with 796 views | Darth_Koont |
| RFU to vote on banning transgender women from women's rugby on 18:30 - Jul 25 by Trequartista |
You can only take inclusion so far. You wouldn't include women in men's rugby because the playing field would not be level, so if the science confirms it, the same surely applies here. |
What science are we talking about here?
Edit: Sorry - thought you’d ignored what I wrote but that’s a separate post. But that’s the reality, not women being forced to play with men. [Post edited 25 Jul 2022 18:35]
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| RFU to vote on banning transgender women from women's rugby on 18:38 - Jul 25 with 782 views | BloomBlue |
| RFU to vote on banning transgender women from women's rugby on 18:32 - Jul 25 by Darth_Koont |
Completely different issue unless you think all contact should be banned. |
Personally I don't think it should be but I can see a time when it will especially if those types of illness is caused by rugby.
At the end of the day it's a job and all employers have a duty to protect staff. I think ultimately the pressure will come from insurance companies if they have to keep paying out millions for players hurt while playing rugby esp with dementia etc |  | | |
| RFU to vote on banning transgender women from women's rugby on 18:45 - Jul 25 with 773 views | Trequartista |
| RFU to vote on banning transgender women from women's rugby on 18:33 - Jul 25 by Darth_Koont |
What science are we talking about here?
Edit: Sorry - thought you’d ignored what I wrote but that’s a separate post. But that’s the reality, not women being forced to play with men. [Post edited 25 Jul 2022 18:35]
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The science that confirms trans women have a physical advantage over women. Men have a physical advantage over women so they don't mix in Rugby - that's not sexist, it's just to avoid an uneven playing field. The same principle applies to trans women, it's not transphobic, just an uneven playing field. | |
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| RFU to vote on banning transgender women from women's rugby on 18:50 - Jul 25 with 766 views | bluelagos |
| RFU to vote on banning transgender women from women's rugby on 18:45 - Jul 25 by Trequartista |
The science that confirms trans women have a physical advantage over women. Men have a physical advantage over women so they don't mix in Rugby - that's not sexist, it's just to avoid an uneven playing field. The same principle applies to trans women, it's not transphobic, just an uneven playing field. |
And what if women rugby players are all happy with the status quo, where trans women players are assessed and where appropriate allowed to play, without any issues?
Why introduce a ban on trans players when the existing system works and is supported by the existing players? |  |
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| RFU to vote on banning transgender women from women's rugby on 18:51 - Jul 25 with 763 views | Darth_Koont |
| RFU to vote on banning transgender women from women's rugby on 18:45 - Jul 25 by Trequartista |
The science that confirms trans women have a physical advantage over women. Men have a physical advantage over women so they don't mix in Rugby - that's not sexist, it's just to avoid an uneven playing field. The same principle applies to trans women, it's not transphobic, just an uneven playing field. |
A sport like rugby is designed to fit people with different skills, physical strengths and weaknesses into a team.
That’s why it’s always been a great sport for inclusion. Sadly this couldn’t be extended to a handful of individuals from a marginalised and threatened community. That’s a stain on rugby and more specifically the RFU. | |
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| RFU to vote on banning transgender women from women's rugby on 18:55 - Jul 25 with 750 views | MattinLondon |
| RFU to vote on banning transgender women from women's rugby on 16:44 - Jul 25 by Darth_Koont |
The live protest is on Friday I believe.
But just can’t see it now that the transphobic genie is out of the bag. Sport should be a very important way to prevent the marginalising of trans people – which is why women’s sport has become the battleground for the transphobes who will certainly not stop there but use it to push even further. |
Are you suggesting that anyone who supports this proposed ban is transphobic?
The average man is around 50% stronger than the average woman. When someone transitions from male to female do they lose their strength ‘advantage’ and have the strength of an average woman? If not, then surly someone who is that much physically stronger could do real damage to a CIS woman?
Being completely honest my knowledge of Union is very limited but even I know that it’s a collision sport. And a sport where the build of each player (I think according to position) differs largely and could be extremely dangerous if a tackle isn’t timed properly? Is a ban simply logical due to strength and power?
I don’t actually know if what I’m saying is complete rubbish but am happy to be corrected. |  | | |
| RFU to vote on banning transgender women from women's rugby on 19:05 - Jul 25 with 710 views | itfcjoe |
| RFU to vote on banning transgender women from women's rugby on 18:50 - Jul 25 by bluelagos |
And what if women rugby players are all happy with the status quo, where trans women players are assessed and where appropriate allowed to play, without any issues?
Why introduce a ban on trans players when the existing system works and is supported by the existing players? |
Because it could be dangerous for them and best to let the regulators with all the evidence decide | |
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| RFU to vote on banning transgender women from women's rugby on 19:11 - Jul 25 with 702 views | bluelagos |
| RFU to vote on banning transgender women from women's rugby on 19:05 - Jul 25 by itfcjoe |
Because it could be dangerous for them and best to let the regulators with all the evidence decide |
At the moment they assess players on a case by case basis. Some trans women are presumably not allowed to play where the dangers or advantages are clear.
The players are happy with that.
What is being proposed will no longer allow women to play rugby together (trans and cis) who are happy to do so at present. | |
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| RFU to vote on banning transgender women from women's rugby on 19:14 - Jul 25 with 689 views | itfcjoe |
| RFU to vote on banning transgender women from women's rugby on 19:11 - Jul 25 by bluelagos |
At the moment they assess players on a case by case basis. Some trans women are presumably not allowed to play where the dangers or advantages are clear.
The players are happy with that.
What is being proposed will no longer allow women to play rugby together (trans and cis) who are happy to do so at present. |
Long term how does a case by case basis works though? | |
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| RFU to vote on banning transgender women from women's rugby on 19:15 - Jul 25 with 691 views | Darth_Koont |
| RFU to vote on banning transgender women from women's rugby on 18:55 - Jul 25 by MattinLondon |
Are you suggesting that anyone who supports this proposed ban is transphobic?
The average man is around 50% stronger than the average woman. When someone transitions from male to female do they lose their strength ‘advantage’ and have the strength of an average woman? If not, then surly someone who is that much physically stronger could do real damage to a CIS woman?
Being completely honest my knowledge of Union is very limited but even I know that it’s a collision sport. And a sport where the build of each player (I think according to position) differs largely and could be extremely dangerous if a tackle isn’t timed properly? Is a ban simply logical due to strength and power?
I don’t actually know if what I’m saying is complete rubbish but am happy to be corrected. |
As you say yourself, players can already be massively different in size and strength.
Pre-pandemic I was a fly-half getting targeted by players twice my weight. That’s part of the game.
And as a coach (male and female players) we take responsibility to train safety and avoid mismatches where people are just going to get hurt. But that’s down to mismatches in experience and technique, not physical mismatches per se.
That’s a part of junior rugby but again it’s a different age/size combined with less experience and technique there. I don’t see anything like the same issue with transwomen and women who are trained to play rugby. | |
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| RFU to vote on banning transgender women from women's rugby on 19:23 - Jul 25 with 673 views | Darth_Koont |
| RFU to vote on banning transgender women from women's rugby on 18:55 - Jul 25 by MattinLondon |
Are you suggesting that anyone who supports this proposed ban is transphobic?
The average man is around 50% stronger than the average woman. When someone transitions from male to female do they lose their strength ‘advantage’ and have the strength of an average woman? If not, then surly someone who is that much physically stronger could do real damage to a CIS woman?
Being completely honest my knowledge of Union is very limited but even I know that it’s a collision sport. And a sport where the build of each player (I think according to position) differs largely and could be extremely dangerous if a tackle isn’t timed properly? Is a ban simply logical due to strength and power?
I don’t actually know if what I’m saying is complete rubbish but am happy to be corrected. |
By the way, I don’t think people supporting the ban are necessarily transphobic. As can be seen on this thread, people think it’s about an unfair and dangerous physical mismatch but it isn’t in the reality of the sport.
The people driving it are probably transphobic. Utter nutters on the subject who see sport as the easiest way to marginalise trans people in the name of “fairness”. | |
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| RFU to vote on banning transgender women from women's rugby on 20:08 - Jul 25 with 626 views | waveneyblue |
| RFU to vote on banning transgender women from women's rugby on 19:23 - Jul 25 by Darth_Koont |
By the way, I don’t think people supporting the ban are necessarily transphobic. As can be seen on this thread, people think it’s about an unfair and dangerous physical mismatch but it isn’t in the reality of the sport.
The people driving it are probably transphobic. Utter nutters on the subject who see sport as the easiest way to marginalise trans people in the name of “fairness”. |
It's absolutely nothing about being transphobic and everything about maintaining a level playing field.
Nothing more, nothing less. |  | | |
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