| Corbyn says the west should abandon Ukraine on 11:58 - Aug 3 with 773 views | giant_stow |
| Corbyn says the west should abandon Ukraine on 11:54 - Aug 3 by Darth_Koont |
I think that's fair enough given how modern and often proxy wars have actually turned out over the past half-century or more. And I don't think anyone is saying that the Ukrainians should just roll over if they don't want to.
But you surely want diplomatic and peaceful resolutions to be pursued right? I can't see either side (Ukrainian and Russian, civilians and soldiers) benefiting from a long and drawn out fight to the bitter end as if that's the only solution. |
disingenuous - talks continue - so do Russian attacks. You are hiding behind theory and ignoring reality. |  |
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| Corbyn says the west should abandon Ukraine on 12:02 - Aug 3 with 752 views | gordon |
| Corbyn says the west should abandon Ukraine on 11:54 - Aug 3 by Darth_Koont |
I think that's fair enough given how modern and often proxy wars have actually turned out over the past half-century or more. And I don't think anyone is saying that the Ukrainians should just roll over if they don't want to.
But you surely want diplomatic and peaceful resolutions to be pursued right? I can't see either side (Ukrainian and Russian, civilians and soldiers) benefiting from a long and drawn out fight to the bitter end as if that's the only solution. |
I follow a lot of information and discourse on Russia/the invasion (my Grandparents on one side of family are Ukrainian) and I'm not aware of any reputable source that considers there to be any possible resolution which doesn't involve Russian military defeat.
The idea of a 'peaceful' resolution is just a fantasy.
The idea that Ukrainians won't 'benefit' from a long-drawn out war is a patronising, colonialist viewpoint - of course they won't, but what is their other option? Live under Russian rule? Would we do that? If the Russians invaded East Anglia, would we let them have Suffolk to prevent a long, drawn-out war? If there were a few child rapes and murders, well, at least it's not a long drawn-out war? |  | | |
| Corbyn says the west should abandon Ukraine on 12:09 - Aug 3 with 727 views | The_Flashing_Smile |
| Corbyn says the west should abandon Ukraine on 11:46 - Aug 3 by gordon |
"Pouring arms in isn’t going to bring about a solution. It is only going to prolong and exaggerate this war."
That's a disgusting, shameful position, because the only alternative to Ukraine defending itself is Russian occupation, and the atrocities that would come with that.
To me it's extraordinary that that needs to be explained to anybody. |
To me it's extraordinary that I still need to explain, for the umpteenth time in this thread, that he doesn't just mean stopping sending arms and doing nothing else. |  |
| Trust the process. Trust Phil. |
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| Corbyn says the west should abandon Ukraine on 12:10 - Aug 3 with 717 views | Ewan_Oozami |
| Corbyn says the west should abandon Ukraine on 11:54 - Aug 3 by Darth_Koont |
I think that's fair enough given how modern and often proxy wars have actually turned out over the past half-century or more. And I don't think anyone is saying that the Ukrainians should just roll over if they don't want to.
But you surely want diplomatic and peaceful resolutions to be pursued right? I can't see either side (Ukrainian and Russian, civilians and soldiers) benefiting from a long and drawn out fight to the bitter end as if that's the only solution. |
I'd be interested to hear what these "diplomatic and peaceful resolutions" might be at this stage of the conflict. |  |
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| Corbyn says the west should abandon Ukraine on 12:11 - Aug 3 with 718 views | GlasgowBlue |
| Corbyn says the west should abandon Ukraine on 11:15 - Aug 3 by The_Flashing_Smile |
Don't have someone on ignore and then ask others what they said. Either ignore him or read him yourself.
Your links are always tenuous. Given how much of an idiot you and others reckon Corbyn is, he's never been caught actually saying anything antisemitic. It's always "that bloke he shared a stage with said X several years ago ∴ Corbyn's a racist".
If you have some evidence that would stand up in a court of law, let's hear it rather than these same old endlessly repeated tenuous links. |
You still haven’t told me what was unraveled? |  |
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| Corbyn says the west should abandon Ukraine on 12:11 - Aug 3 with 695 views | Darth_Koont |
| Corbyn says the west should abandon Ukraine on 11:47 - Aug 3 by giant_stow |
Why its 'ridiculously binary and narrow'? What's the middle or grey outcome look like and how do we get there? |
I meant it's about being able to criticize NATO as well as Putin's Russia. That doesn't provide cover for Putin and neither should being rightfully against Putin be seen as approving of everything NATO is and does.
Any resolution of the invasion and oppression will necessarily not just involve military means. We've already had the economic aspect with sanctions and other attempts to rightly pressure Putin. And at the end we'll see a political resolution too.
The pacifist argument is to see the political resolution as the necessary goal anyway so that can be brought forward. Rejecting that out of hand and suggesting this can only be about fighting and if necessary years of death and turmoil doesn't seem a very healthy or strategically sound argument on its own.
But clearly it's about doing different things and working towards a peaceful and safer resolution in different ways. |  |
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| Corbyn says the west should abandon Ukraine on 12:14 - Aug 3 with 694 views | gordon |
| Corbyn says the west should abandon Ukraine on 12:09 - Aug 3 by The_Flashing_Smile |
To me it's extraordinary that I still need to explain, for the umpteenth time in this thread, that he doesn't just mean stopping sending arms and doing nothing else. |
If the west doesn't supply weapons, Russia will occupy Ukraine.
That is the reality of the situation. Wishing it were different, or wishing that there was an alternative is fine. I wish there was an alternative, I think everyone wishes there was an alternative.
But there isn't. | | | |
| Corbyn says the west should abandon Ukraine on 12:23 - Aug 3 with 663 views | Darth_Koont |
| Corbyn says the west should abandon Ukraine on 12:10 - Aug 3 by Ewan_Oozami |
I'd be interested to hear what these "diplomatic and peaceful resolutions" might be at this stage of the conflict. |
I don't know what can be negotiated. This is the problem with escalation as the approach on both sides
At the start, we had Crimea, the Donbas regions and Ukraine not joining NATO. I think there was a possibility to establish that as a basis to stop fighting but it's gone much further now with the sea corridor.
But will escalating and likely prolonging the war lead us, and most importantly the Ukrainian people, anywhere better? It's a self-fulfilling prophecy that diplomatic and peaceful resolutions get further and further away when wars deepen. Normally, takes an impasse of several years (while people are still dying in their hundreds of thousands) to then start the process towards a ceasefire and peace.
Because that's one of the issues with modern war, they can't really be "won" anymore as everyone tends to lose. | |
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| Corbyn says the west should abandon Ukraine on 12:27 - Aug 3 with 638 views | Darth_Koont |
| Corbyn says the west should abandon Ukraine on 11:58 - Aug 3 by giant_stow |
disingenuous - talks continue - so do Russian attacks. You are hiding behind theory and ignoring reality. |
No, I am saying what the reality is. And specifically the reality of war based on modern history.
What theory am I pushing? | |
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| Corbyn says the west should abandon Ukraine on 12:30 - Aug 3 with 633 views | gordon |
| Corbyn says the west should abandon Ukraine on 12:27 - Aug 3 by Darth_Koont |
No, I am saying what the reality is. And specifically the reality of war based on modern history.
What theory am I pushing? |
Do you at least think that Ukraine should be provided with the all the means it needs to defend itself until Corbs has persuaded Putin to call the genocide off? | | | |
| Corbyn says the west should abandon Ukraine on 12:32 - Aug 3 with 627 views | SuperKieranMcKenna |
| Corbyn says the west should abandon Ukraine on 12:11 - Aug 3 by Darth_Koont |
I meant it's about being able to criticize NATO as well as Putin's Russia. That doesn't provide cover for Putin and neither should being rightfully against Putin be seen as approving of everything NATO is and does.
Any resolution of the invasion and oppression will necessarily not just involve military means. We've already had the economic aspect with sanctions and other attempts to rightly pressure Putin. And at the end we'll see a political resolution too.
The pacifist argument is to see the political resolution as the necessary goal anyway so that can be brought forward. Rejecting that out of hand and suggesting this can only be about fighting and if necessary years of death and turmoil doesn't seem a very healthy or strategically sound argument on its own.
But clearly it's about doing different things and working towards a peaceful and safer resolution in different ways. |
You didn’t answer my comment about the historical context of the Eastern European nations CHOOSING to join NATO.
You may view NATO as a source of instability- they view very differently, few have offered Ukraine as much assistance as Poland. |  | | |
| Corbyn says the west should abandon Ukraine on 12:33 - Aug 3 with 623 views | giant_stow |
| Corbyn says the west should abandon Ukraine on 12:11 - Aug 3 by Darth_Koont |
I meant it's about being able to criticize NATO as well as Putin's Russia. That doesn't provide cover for Putin and neither should being rightfully against Putin be seen as approving of everything NATO is and does.
Any resolution of the invasion and oppression will necessarily not just involve military means. We've already had the economic aspect with sanctions and other attempts to rightly pressure Putin. And at the end we'll see a political resolution too.
The pacifist argument is to see the political resolution as the necessary goal anyway so that can be brought forward. Rejecting that out of hand and suggesting this can only be about fighting and if necessary years of death and turmoil doesn't seem a very healthy or strategically sound argument on its own.
But clearly it's about doing different things and working towards a peaceful and safer resolution in different ways. |
No ones rejected diplomacy though - merely pointed out that its not working and Russia continues to attack. It's getting boring repeating this over and over again. I'm therefore none the wiser to what this mythical middle way looks like or is it really what Lowhouse said earlier: peace through surrender? If that's it, just be honest and say so. Or stop ignoring reality. | |
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| Corbyn says the west should abandon Ukraine on 12:33 - Aug 3 with 617 views | Ewan_Oozami |
| Corbyn says the west should abandon Ukraine on 12:23 - Aug 3 by Darth_Koont |
I don't know what can be negotiated. This is the problem with escalation as the approach on both sides
At the start, we had Crimea, the Donbas regions and Ukraine not joining NATO. I think there was a possibility to establish that as a basis to stop fighting but it's gone much further now with the sea corridor.
But will escalating and likely prolonging the war lead us, and most importantly the Ukrainian people, anywhere better? It's a self-fulfilling prophecy that diplomatic and peaceful resolutions get further and further away when wars deepen. Normally, takes an impasse of several years (while people are still dying in their hundreds of thousands) to then start the process towards a ceasefire and peace.
Because that's one of the issues with modern war, they can't really be "won" anymore as everyone tends to lose. |
I think it very much depends on what one's definitions of "better" and "losing" are..... | |
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| Corbyn says the west should abandon Ukraine on 12:37 - Aug 3 with 600 views | Darth_Koont |
| Corbyn says the west should abandon Ukraine on 12:30 - Aug 3 by gordon |
Do you at least think that Ukraine should be provided with the all the means it needs to defend itself until Corbs has persuaded Putin to call the genocide off? |
This is the tricky part. Ultimately, no. And we're not threatening Putin with the means we could bring to bear. So we can accept there's a limit to what is helpful or useful even if it would defend Ukraine better.
But even here we've made a calculation about the greater good. Are we doing the same for Ukraine and its people by propping up a proxy war? No, I'm not sure about that at all.
We should be pushing other solutions and political/economic means too. We can at least agree on that, right? [Post edited 3 Aug 2022 12:37]
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| Corbyn says the west should abandon Ukraine on 12:38 - Aug 3 with 602 views | SuperKieranMcKenna |
| Corbyn says the west should abandon Ukraine on 12:33 - Aug 3 by Ewan_Oozami |
I think it very much depends on what one's definitions of "better" and "losing" are..... |
Exactly. As Badger pointed out will it even save lives? I wonder what Corbyn thinks will happen to those Ukrainians left behind in Russian occupied territories…
And no doubt part of any agreement with Putin will involve the “de-militarisation” of Ukraine as he’s already openly demanded. Which then sets him up nicely to have another crack at it. [Post edited 3 Aug 2022 12:42]
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| Corbyn says the west should abandon Ukraine on 12:39 - Aug 3 with 601 views | gordon |
| Corbyn says the west should abandon Ukraine on 12:37 - Aug 3 by Darth_Koont |
This is the tricky part. Ultimately, no. And we're not threatening Putin with the means we could bring to bear. So we can accept there's a limit to what is helpful or useful even if it would defend Ukraine better.
But even here we've made a calculation about the greater good. Are we doing the same for Ukraine and its people by propping up a proxy war? No, I'm not sure about that at all.
We should be pushing other solutions and political/economic means too. We can at least agree on that, right? [Post edited 3 Aug 2022 12:37]
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You wouldn't continue to provide Ukraine with the means to defend itself, because of the 'greater good' - have I understood that? | | | |
| Corbyn says the west should abandon Ukraine on 12:40 - Aug 3 with 590 views | marchy |
| Corbyn says the west should abandon Ukraine on 12:38 - Aug 3 by SuperKieranMcKenna |
Exactly. As Badger pointed out will it even save lives? I wonder what Corbyn thinks will happen to those Ukrainians left behind in Russian occupied territories…
And no doubt part of any agreement with Putin will involve the “de-militarisation” of Ukraine as he’s already openly demanded. Which then sets him up nicely to have another crack at it. [Post edited 3 Aug 2022 12:42]
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I'm not sure there's compelling evidence that he thinks much at all. | | | |
| Corbyn says the west should abandon Ukraine on 12:41 - Aug 3 with 587 views | gordon |
| Corbyn says the west should abandon Ukraine on 12:37 - Aug 3 by Darth_Koont |
This is the tricky part. Ultimately, no. And we're not threatening Putin with the means we could bring to bear. So we can accept there's a limit to what is helpful or useful even if it would defend Ukraine better.
But even here we've made a calculation about the greater good. Are we doing the same for Ukraine and its people by propping up a proxy war? No, I'm not sure about that at all.
We should be pushing other solutions and political/economic means too. We can at least agree on that, right? [Post edited 3 Aug 2022 12:37]
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I don't think you said whether you'd argue for letting Russians occupy Suffolk, let's say, if they had invaded the UK, to avoid a prolonged war? | | | |
| Corbyn says the west should abandon Ukraine on 12:42 - Aug 3 with 563 views | Darth_Koont |
| Corbyn says the west should abandon Ukraine on 12:32 - Aug 3 by SuperKieranMcKenna |
You didn’t answer my comment about the historical context of the Eastern European nations CHOOSING to join NATO.
You may view NATO as a source of instability- they view very differently, few have offered Ukraine as much assistance as Poland. |
In an unstable world, you're forced to take sides. There's a reason why Sweden and Finland only joined NATO now.
I don't blame smaller countries who are more directly affected and threatened looking for security in such a world. My criticisms of NATO are about their role in increasing instability or at least establishing their own stability at the risk of others' losing theirs.
And none of which means Putin isn't the biggest cause of instability here. But we've rather played our part in building him up when it suited us. Certainly we failed to challenge him on the increasingly authoritarian and anti-democratic way he's built up his role and power. [Post edited 3 Aug 2022 12:43]
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| Corbyn says the west should abandon Ukraine on 12:43 - Aug 3 with 561 views | gordon |
| Corbyn says the west should abandon Ukraine on 12:42 - Aug 3 by Darth_Koont |
In an unstable world, you're forced to take sides. There's a reason why Sweden and Finland only joined NATO now.
I don't blame smaller countries who are more directly affected and threatened looking for security in such a world. My criticisms of NATO are about their role in increasing instability or at least establishing their own stability at the risk of others' losing theirs.
And none of which means Putin isn't the biggest cause of instability here. But we've rather played our part in building him up when it suited us. Certainly we failed to challenge him on the increasingly authoritarian and anti-democratic way he's built up his role and power. [Post edited 3 Aug 2022 12:43]
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How can a defensive pact cause other countries to lose stability? | | | |
| Corbyn says the west should abandon Ukraine on 12:45 - Aug 3 with 544 views | Darth_Koont |
| Corbyn says the west should abandon Ukraine on 12:33 - Aug 3 by Ewan_Oozami |
I think it very much depends on what one's definitions of "better" and "losing" are..... |
Agreed. | |
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| Corbyn says the west should abandon Ukraine on 12:47 - Aug 3 with 541 views | Darth_Koont |
| Corbyn says the west should abandon Ukraine on 12:43 - Aug 3 by gordon |
How can a defensive pact cause other countries to lose stability? |
Because it's not been just a defensive pact over the last couple of decades. It's also been a sphere of influence tool increasingly. | |
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| Corbyn says the west should abandon Ukraine on 12:50 - Aug 3 with 529 views | gordon |
| Corbyn says the west should abandon Ukraine on 12:47 - Aug 3 by Darth_Koont |
Because it's not been just a defensive pact over the last couple of decades. It's also been a sphere of influence tool increasingly. |
Have you got a concrete example? | | | |
| Corbyn says the west should abandon Ukraine on 13:12 - Aug 3 with 460 views | The_Flashing_Smile |
| Corbyn says the west should abandon Ukraine on 12:11 - Aug 3 by GlasgowBlue |
You still haven’t told me what was unraveled? |
If you have DK on ignore there's no point, I'm not obliged to answer any questions you demand I answer, and even if I could be bothered it will just be the usual nonsense of you tenuously linking things and me saying that doesn't mean Corbyn supports those views.
Now, I'll ask again, if you have some evidence that would stand up in a court of law, let's hear it rather than these same old endlessly repeated tenuous links. | |
| Trust the process. Trust Phil. |
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| Corbyn says the west should abandon Ukraine on 13:13 - Aug 3 with 456 views | The_Flashing_Smile |
| Corbyn says the west should abandon Ukraine on 12:14 - Aug 3 by gordon |
If the west doesn't supply weapons, Russia will occupy Ukraine.
That is the reality of the situation. Wishing it were different, or wishing that there was an alternative is fine. I wish there was an alternative, I think everyone wishes there was an alternative.
But there isn't. |
"If the west doesn't supply weapons, Russia will occupy Ukraine."
Sheesh. I give up. It's like talking to a brick wall. | |
| Trust the process. Trust Phil. |
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