| Should comedy have boundaries? Discuss. 08:31 - Aug 14 with 5676 views | GlasgowBlue |
Jerry Sadowitz banned from the Edinburgh fringe after calling Rishi Sunak the “P” word and getting his cock out.
Seems to be getting support based on the view that yiu know what you are going to get when watching Sadowitz.
On the one hand they are right. You know he’s going to be outrageously offensive. Don’t go if you’re easily offended.
On the other hand, why should black and Asian members of the audience be made to feel uncomfortable because someone is making jokes based on the colour of their skin.
Should comedy based in racial stereotypes be consigned to the 1970’s or could context be a mitigating factor?
[Post edited 14 Aug 2022 8:39]
|  |
| |  |
| Should comedy have boundaries? Discuss. on 08:37 - Aug 14 with 3624 views | PrrrromotionGiven |
Thought you were hinting at p*******le at first, which is dodgy enough to assert without evidence, but seeing it was actually p**i, that's clearly over the line, on top of that line about the economy (which isn't even true, let alone funny).
Can't see the appeal. No, you can't say whatever you want because "it's a joke". |  | | |
| Should comedy have boundaries? Discuss. on 08:47 - Aug 14 with 3580 views | Keno |
| Should comedy have boundaries? Discuss. on 08:37 - Aug 14 by PrrrromotionGiven |
Thought you were hinting at p*******le at first, which is dodgy enough to assert without evidence, but seeing it was actually p**i, that's clearly over the line, on top of that line about the economy (which isn't even true, let alone funny).
Can't see the appeal. No, you can't say whatever you want because "it's a joke". |
If you juxtapose two unrelated events this weekend it could crystallise the argument
Rushdie writes something, which he has every reason to do, that meant people found offensive and is attacked by someone who was offended, which is totally wrong
A person who is trying to be shockingly funny says something deliberately offensive and person are questioning whether it’s right to stop him
No the two events aren’t related but if the “comic” wants to be offensive for the sake of it you have to question whether others have right to be offended?
Freedom of speech is worth upholding but does comes with potential consequences. If I am free to offend are others free to react?
It a very huge gray area! |  |
| |
| Should comedy have boundaries? Discuss. on 08:57 - Aug 14 with 3499 views | clive_baker |
Perhaps I’ve had a sheltered life but I actually thought you meant pr1ck! In which case yes absolutely ludicrously unfair given it’s an accurate description.
If he did indeed use the pa*I then that’s utterly disgraceful, racist, and he should certainly be banned. |  |
| |
| Should comedy have boundaries? Discuss. on 08:57 - Aug 14 with 3505 views | Mookamoo |
Not defending him but I'd like to see the jokes in context. I've seen Sadowitz a couple of times and he is brutal, but he isn't an idiot. He knows what he's doing and will rift on unsaid prejudices and vocalise them in order to push what the audience's limit is.
There will be some in that audience that are were just there to say they were. Like those that eat a really hot chilli just to say they have done - nothing to do with enjoyment, just an endurance test.
It might be the world has now moved in a different direction and Sadowitz's trajectory is now too radical. |  | | |
| Should comedy have boundaries? Discuss. on 08:59 - Aug 14 with 3484 views | Plums |
I’m deeply uncomfortable with that type of language but wouldn’t seek to ban a comic who uses it, I just wouldn’t go and see them. It’s the live version of ‘turning the TV off’ rather than being offended. I find Chubby Brown offensive along with the Macc Lads and others of their ilk but it’s important that they can still perform - if only so the rest of us know where to find the racists when we need them.
It’s the venue that banned Sadowitz which is bizarre as they surely knew the type of act they were booking. |  |
| |
| Should comedy have boundaries? Discuss. on 09:05 - Aug 14 with 3438 views | Pendejo |
I saw him live in Felixstowe many years ago, can't remember him being offensive about anyone other than Royal family and the residents of Dundee.
What was the context of;
*getting his cock out?
*The Sunak abuse
*The b&w quote
There's so much to ridicule Sunak for that an abusive ethnic term really not required. Anything that uses race, surely only appeals to racists? Sexism to sexists?
I volunteer to sit thru the show to cast judgement. |  |
| |
| Should comedy have boundaries? Discuss. on 09:14 - Aug 14 with 3366 views | lowhouseblue |
2 boundaries. it should be legal. there should be some people who find it funny (and funny meaning in context, not a list of the individual words used)
of course a venue gets to chose who it wants to host. but a venue that decides to censor comedians should be known for that. [Post edited 14 Aug 2022 9:19]
|  |
| And so as the loose-bowelled pigeon of time swoops low over the unsuspecting tourist of destiny, and the flatulent skunk of fate wanders into the air-conditioning system of eternity, I notice it's the end of the show |
| |
| Should comedy have boundaries? Discuss. on 09:17 - Aug 14 with 3345 views | GlasgowBlue |
| Should comedy have boundaries? Discuss. on 09:05 - Aug 14 by Pendejo |
I saw him live in Felixstowe many years ago, can't remember him being offensive about anyone other than Royal family and the residents of Dundee.
What was the context of;
*getting his cock out?
*The Sunak abuse
*The b&w quote
There's so much to ridicule Sunak for that an abusive ethnic term really not required. Anything that uses race, surely only appeals to racists? Sexism to sexists?
I volunteer to sit thru the show to cast judgement. |
He was once knocked out unconscious by an audience member in Canada for opening with the line …
“Hello Moose fcukers. I tell you why I hate Canada, half of you speak French, and the other half let them."
"Why don't you speak Indian? You might as well speak the language of the people you stole the country off of in the first place." | |
| |
Login to get fewer ads
| Should comedy have boundaries? Discuss. on 09:26 - Aug 14 with 3254 views | lowhouseblue |
| Should comedy have boundaries? Discuss. on 09:05 - Aug 14 by Pendejo |
I saw him live in Felixstowe many years ago, can't remember him being offensive about anyone other than Royal family and the residents of Dundee.
What was the context of;
*getting his cock out?
*The Sunak abuse
*The b&w quote
There's so much to ridicule Sunak for that an abusive ethnic term really not required. Anything that uses race, surely only appeals to racists? Sexism to sexists?
I volunteer to sit thru the show to cast judgement. |
words are just words - it's the intent with which someone uses them that matters. racialised words aren't illegal - using them with the intent to stir up racial hatred is. i obviously don't know his routine. | |
| And so as the loose-bowelled pigeon of time swoops low over the unsuspecting tourist of destiny, and the flatulent skunk of fate wanders into the air-conditioning system of eternity, I notice it's the end of the show |
| |
| Should comedy have boundaries? Discuss. on 09:32 - Aug 14 with 3191 views | Pendejo |
| Should comedy have boundaries? Discuss. on 09:26 - Aug 14 by lowhouseblue |
words are just words - it's the intent with which someone uses them that matters. racialised words aren't illegal - using them with the intent to stir up racial hatred is. i obviously don't know his routine. |
Which is why I asked about context. | |
| |
| Should comedy have boundaries? Discuss. on 09:35 - Aug 14 with 3163 views | Pendejo |
| Should comedy have boundaries? Discuss. on 09:17 - Aug 14 by GlasgowBlue |
He was once knocked out unconscious by an audience member in Canada for opening with the line …
“Hello Moose fcukers. I tell you why I hate Canada, half of you speak French, and the other half let them."
"Why don't you speak Indian? You might as well speak the language of the people you stole the country off of in the first place." |
Not being Canadian or a native French speaker I find that funny.
The point made is valid, and decking him out of order. | |
| |
| Should comedy have boundaries? Discuss. on 09:37 - Aug 14 with 3149 views | lowhouseblue |
| Should comedy have boundaries? Discuss. on 09:32 - Aug 14 by Pendejo |
Which is why I asked about context. |
well, his reputation is as a controversialist who seeks to offend - he doesn't have a reputation as someone who has previously promoted racial hatred at his shows. using bad words for comedic effect seems very much his thing. seems odd for the pleasance not to know what it was signing up to. | |
| And so as the loose-bowelled pigeon of time swoops low over the unsuspecting tourist of destiny, and the flatulent skunk of fate wanders into the air-conditioning system of eternity, I notice it's the end of the show |
| |
| Should comedy have boundaries? Discuss. on 09:58 - Aug 14 with 3046 views | Pinewoodblue |
Doubt very much if anyone on here would be personally offended if the P word was used in a post, however many would jump on the poster for using a word that isn’t socially acceptable.
A good comedian doesn’t need to use any word that isn’t socially acceptable. On a recent cruise a comedian ended his performance saying he would be back on stage at 11.30 pm and not to attend if you are easily offended. It was packed out but he never used any directly offensive words.
He began by saying he would never use the C word but substitutes the word charmer. His biggest laugh was when some people arrived late. All he said was “ We have some charmers sneaking in.” Then when the four of them were having difficulty in finding vacant seats together asked why charmers who arrive late expect to be able to sit together.
As for Willie waving there is a fair bit of it on TWTD. |  |
| |
| Should comedy have boundaries? Discuss. on 10:04 - Aug 14 with 3016 views | Vegtablue |
Broadening out the question, if comedy is protected from all the boundaries imposed on other forms of communication, what is there to stop it being utilised as a smokescreen vehicle to peddle extremism / hate? I suppose a panel may be set up concurrently to adjudicate on the veracity of those claimimg to be within the profession, but that in itself would create boundaries. | | | |
| Should comedy have boundaries? Discuss. on 10:06 - Aug 14 with 3007 views | Enigma_Blue |
I don't quite understand Jeremy Vine's Tweet. He says he has seen him live four times and each time was more offensive than the last. So why does he keep going back to see him if he finds him that offensive? | | | |
| Should comedy have boundaries? Discuss. on 10:14 - Aug 14 with 2930 views | Pinewoodblue |
| Should comedy have boundaries? Discuss. on 10:06 - Aug 14 by Enigma_Blue |
I don't quite understand Jeremy Vine's Tweet. He says he has seen him live four times and each time was more offensive than the last. So why does he keep going back to see him if he finds him that offensive? |
Because he wasn’t personally offended. Look at TWTD…you can call-out a poster for being offensive without you personally being offended.
It is the way it is. No justification for making allowances for Comedians. | |
| |
| Should comedy have boundaries? Discuss. on 10:23 - Aug 14 with 2899 views | J2BLUE |
I often defend jokes on here that others find offensive but it's very hard to see what calling him that could actually add to any joke. |  |
| |
| Should comedy have boundaries? Discuss. on 10:23 - Aug 14 with 2900 views | ArnoldMoorhen |
| Should comedy have boundaries? Discuss. on 09:37 - Aug 14 by lowhouseblue |
well, his reputation is as a controversialist who seeks to offend - he doesn't have a reputation as someone who has previously promoted racial hatred at his shows. using bad words for comedic effect seems very much his thing. seems odd for the pleasance not to know what it was signing up to. |
Having run a venue and promoted comedy shows, I'm totally with The Pleasance on this one.
They state that they don't censor, but they reserve the right not to promote a comedian who doesn't align with their values. What that means is that they aren't going to tell a comedian what to say, or ask them to change their script, but won't book back acts who abuse the trust that they have with the audience.
I saw Nick Helm at The Pleasance in 2019. He used the C word incredibly frequently and ranted and raved whilst clad in a tiny pair of gold hotpants. It was raw and, in a sense, violent, but the subject of the violence was the world in general and himself and his failings in particular. It was the most profound exploration of mental health I have seen in the live arts.
The Pleasance booked him back for this year.
The Pleasance knows what it is doing, and books acts which push the boundaries, for example, this year, Trash Salad, a queer stripper who gets her genitals out. But, and this is the crucial thing, there is a "Nudity" warning on her show, so the audience have informed consent. It's a hugely life affirming, celebratory show.
A man getting his penis out, whilst acting aggressively, without any form of warning, is hugely problematic, and could be experienced by some in a way which violates them. Maybe they shouldn't go and watch Jerry Sadowitz, though.
For that man to use racist and sexist hate speech is beyond acceptable to the vast majority of comedy audiences, even those who would watch Nick Helm or Trash Salad and have watched Jerry Sadowitz before. It is borderline illegal (nuance and context would be key in any potential prosecution: the intention would need to be proven as inciting racial hatred, and I am sure Sadowitz would argue that he was actually exposing hypocrisy and reflex offence in Middle Class comedy consumers rather than encouraging them to hate Asian people.)
Frankie Boyle once had a media storm over a joke about disability. A woman who had a disabled son walked out and made a stir. His reply was "She was laughing when I was making jokes about other people, and was only offended when I got too close to home for her."
That's a perfectly solid defence, and while I would watch Frankie Boyle myself, I wouldn't have booked him for my former venue, because taken out of context that joke wouldn't have aligned with the values of the venue, and I would never censor a comedian or tell them what they can and can't say.
Most comedians have a line, which is "Punch up, not down", that is, pick on someone with power, ridicule them as much as you like, but don't denigrate those society has marginalised or who have no platform to respond. Especially expose the hypocrisy of those with power. Most Asian people in Britain live very different lives from Rishi Sunak, and have never had the opportunities that he has enjoyed. Punch at him. But not Asian people generally, especially not for them having the temerity (in the logic of the joke) to aspire to leadership of the economy or the country.
The Pleasance wouldn't have expected him to "go there" when they made the booking. They will have had an agonising choice to make, but it is totally up to them to decide where they draw the line as promoters.
(As an aside, The Pleasance operate out of University of Edinburgh buildings, and, had they not taken this stand, they may not have been welcome back in the future, as non-consensual genital display and racist hate speech would both fall full of University of Edinburgh policies) | | | |
| Should comedy have boundaries? Discuss. on 10:29 - Aug 14 with 2835 views | Enigma_Blue |
| Should comedy have boundaries? Discuss. on 10:14 - Aug 14 by Pinewoodblue |
Because he wasn’t personally offended. Look at TWTD…you can call-out a poster for being offensive without you personally being offended.
It is the way it is. No justification for making allowances for Comedians. |
Maybe but if that was the case he should have tweeted something like 'I have seen him four times and I enjoyed each gig but some people may find him offensive.' When someone uses the term 'it is/was offensive ' it usually implies they themselves found it offensive. | | | |
| Should comedy have boundaries? Discuss. on 11:18 - Aug 14 with 2698 views | GlasgowBlue |
| Should comedy have boundaries? Discuss. on 10:23 - Aug 14 by ArnoldMoorhen |
Having run a venue and promoted comedy shows, I'm totally with The Pleasance on this one.
They state that they don't censor, but they reserve the right not to promote a comedian who doesn't align with their values. What that means is that they aren't going to tell a comedian what to say, or ask them to change their script, but won't book back acts who abuse the trust that they have with the audience.
I saw Nick Helm at The Pleasance in 2019. He used the C word incredibly frequently and ranted and raved whilst clad in a tiny pair of gold hotpants. It was raw and, in a sense, violent, but the subject of the violence was the world in general and himself and his failings in particular. It was the most profound exploration of mental health I have seen in the live arts.
The Pleasance booked him back for this year.
The Pleasance knows what it is doing, and books acts which push the boundaries, for example, this year, Trash Salad, a queer stripper who gets her genitals out. But, and this is the crucial thing, there is a "Nudity" warning on her show, so the audience have informed consent. It's a hugely life affirming, celebratory show.
A man getting his penis out, whilst acting aggressively, without any form of warning, is hugely problematic, and could be experienced by some in a way which violates them. Maybe they shouldn't go and watch Jerry Sadowitz, though.
For that man to use racist and sexist hate speech is beyond acceptable to the vast majority of comedy audiences, even those who would watch Nick Helm or Trash Salad and have watched Jerry Sadowitz before. It is borderline illegal (nuance and context would be key in any potential prosecution: the intention would need to be proven as inciting racial hatred, and I am sure Sadowitz would argue that he was actually exposing hypocrisy and reflex offence in Middle Class comedy consumers rather than encouraging them to hate Asian people.)
Frankie Boyle once had a media storm over a joke about disability. A woman who had a disabled son walked out and made a stir. His reply was "She was laughing when I was making jokes about other people, and was only offended when I got too close to home for her."
That's a perfectly solid defence, and while I would watch Frankie Boyle myself, I wouldn't have booked him for my former venue, because taken out of context that joke wouldn't have aligned with the values of the venue, and I would never censor a comedian or tell them what they can and can't say.
Most comedians have a line, which is "Punch up, not down", that is, pick on someone with power, ridicule them as much as you like, but don't denigrate those society has marginalised or who have no platform to respond. Especially expose the hypocrisy of those with power. Most Asian people in Britain live very different lives from Rishi Sunak, and have never had the opportunities that he has enjoyed. Punch at him. But not Asian people generally, especially not for them having the temerity (in the logic of the joke) to aspire to leadership of the economy or the country.
The Pleasance wouldn't have expected him to "go there" when they made the booking. They will have had an agonising choice to make, but it is totally up to them to decide where they draw the line as promoters.
(As an aside, The Pleasance operate out of University of Edinburgh buildings, and, had they not taken this stand, they may not have been welcome back in the future, as non-consensual genital display and racist hate speech would both fall full of University of Edinburgh policies) |
Very informative. Thanks. | |
| |
| Should comedy have boundaries? Discuss. on 11:22 - Aug 14 with 2696 views | solomon |
That stuff just isn’t funny in any way. The man should be shunned full stop, plus it’s a racial slur something he should be firmly brought to book for, just because you’re a comedian it doesn’t mean you are exempt from the rules that govern the rest of decent society. |  | | |
| Should comedy have boundaries? Discuss. on 11:23 - Aug 14 with 2687 views | solomon |
| Should comedy have boundaries? Discuss. on 08:57 - Aug 14 by Mookamoo |
Not defending him but I'd like to see the jokes in context. I've seen Sadowitz a couple of times and he is brutal, but he isn't an idiot. He knows what he's doing and will rift on unsaid prejudices and vocalise them in order to push what the audience's limit is.
There will be some in that audience that are were just there to say they were. Like those that eat a really hot chilli just to say they have done - nothing to do with enjoyment, just an endurance test.
It might be the world has now moved in a different direction and Sadowitz's trajectory is now too radical. |
Or just plain racist ? | | | |
| Should comedy have boundaries? Discuss. on 11:32 - Aug 14 with 2649 views | lowhouseblue |
| Should comedy have boundaries? Discuss. on 10:23 - Aug 14 by ArnoldMoorhen |
Having run a venue and promoted comedy shows, I'm totally with The Pleasance on this one.
They state that they don't censor, but they reserve the right not to promote a comedian who doesn't align with their values. What that means is that they aren't going to tell a comedian what to say, or ask them to change their script, but won't book back acts who abuse the trust that they have with the audience.
I saw Nick Helm at The Pleasance in 2019. He used the C word incredibly frequently and ranted and raved whilst clad in a tiny pair of gold hotpants. It was raw and, in a sense, violent, but the subject of the violence was the world in general and himself and his failings in particular. It was the most profound exploration of mental health I have seen in the live arts.
The Pleasance booked him back for this year.
The Pleasance knows what it is doing, and books acts which push the boundaries, for example, this year, Trash Salad, a queer stripper who gets her genitals out. But, and this is the crucial thing, there is a "Nudity" warning on her show, so the audience have informed consent. It's a hugely life affirming, celebratory show.
A man getting his penis out, whilst acting aggressively, without any form of warning, is hugely problematic, and could be experienced by some in a way which violates them. Maybe they shouldn't go and watch Jerry Sadowitz, though.
For that man to use racist and sexist hate speech is beyond acceptable to the vast majority of comedy audiences, even those who would watch Nick Helm or Trash Salad and have watched Jerry Sadowitz before. It is borderline illegal (nuance and context would be key in any potential prosecution: the intention would need to be proven as inciting racial hatred, and I am sure Sadowitz would argue that he was actually exposing hypocrisy and reflex offence in Middle Class comedy consumers rather than encouraging them to hate Asian people.)
Frankie Boyle once had a media storm over a joke about disability. A woman who had a disabled son walked out and made a stir. His reply was "She was laughing when I was making jokes about other people, and was only offended when I got too close to home for her."
That's a perfectly solid defence, and while I would watch Frankie Boyle myself, I wouldn't have booked him for my former venue, because taken out of context that joke wouldn't have aligned with the values of the venue, and I would never censor a comedian or tell them what they can and can't say.
Most comedians have a line, which is "Punch up, not down", that is, pick on someone with power, ridicule them as much as you like, but don't denigrate those society has marginalised or who have no platform to respond. Especially expose the hypocrisy of those with power. Most Asian people in Britain live very different lives from Rishi Sunak, and have never had the opportunities that he has enjoyed. Punch at him. But not Asian people generally, especially not for them having the temerity (in the logic of the joke) to aspire to leadership of the economy or the country.
The Pleasance wouldn't have expected him to "go there" when they made the booking. They will have had an agonising choice to make, but it is totally up to them to decide where they draw the line as promoters.
(As an aside, The Pleasance operate out of University of Edinburgh buildings, and, had they not taken this stand, they may not have been welcome back in the future, as non-consensual genital display and racist hate speech would both fall full of University of Edinburgh policies) |
many thanks for this interesting and detailed reply. i did say that the venue had the right to decide who to host. but I do think cancelling his show amounts to censorship - again it's within their rights to do that (and you give particular reasons why they may be under pressure to do so - though edingburgh university also has a legal duty under the education act to protect free speech within the law). i also agree about giving the audience a warning about the content - surely everyone attending is doing so because they know his reputation, but a warning is still appropriate. trouble is we just don't know the content of his routine - but I have seen no claims that he broke the law. words by themselves are not hate speech - critically there also has to be intent, and there is no reason at all to believe there was any intent in this case. context and intended meaning are central to comedy. particular words can't be taken out of that context. there's no reason to assume he wasn't "punching" against racist attitudes.
the real problem i have is with the statement from the venue. they said "his opinions were unacceptable." well, other than illegality, i'm not keen on opinions being declared unacceptable - that's a direct attack on free speech (again a venue has the right to do that, but they should then carry the reputation of adopting censorship). all of your examples of edgy comedy which is ok, essentially involve a judgement of whether you approve of them - which is counter to the notion of free speech (which must extend to stuff we disagree with). but more importantly how does the pleasance think it knows what "opinions" a comedian is expressing. it is a dull and narrow reading of comedy to think that a comedian's opinions can easily be extracted from a routine, or that the purpose of comedy is to express an opinion. challenging comedy is often much more complex than that and contingent on the hearers interaction with it. so not only do i reject the idea that, within the law, some opinions are unacceptable, but the notion that comedy can be simplified down to "opinions" is, on the part of the pleasance, plain thick. sometimes comedians say stuff that is funny without any intent to express their own opinion. lots of comedy can't be separated from offence, and comedians intentionally play with offence, that act can't be muddled up with their own opinions. i think the pleasance has really damaged its reputation with this - which, of course, it is at liberty to do.
but thanks for a reasoned and insightful reply. | |
| And so as the loose-bowelled pigeon of time swoops low over the unsuspecting tourist of destiny, and the flatulent skunk of fate wanders into the air-conditioning system of eternity, I notice it's the end of the show |
| |
| Should comedy have boundaries? Discuss. on 12:16 - Aug 14 with 2496 views | Illinoisblue |
Generally, no, they should not have boundaries. But If he’s getting his cock out that suggests he’s running short on material and just wants to shock. Wouldn’t bother me, it’s weird though. It’s a minefield, really, isn’t it? Context, intent, meaning…. Jimmy Carr can joke about the holocaust and it doesn’t seem to have affected his career. |  |
| |
| Should comedy have boundaries? Discuss. on 12:23 - Aug 14 with 2431 views | pointofblue |
I’m more concerned that people find Jerry Sadowitz’s ‘comedy’ humorous. Having to rely on racism and exposure suggests a lack of talent to me, but guess it’s very subjective. | |
| |
| |
By continuing to use the site, you agree to our use of cookies and to abide by our Terms and Conditions.
