| The trans Bill in Scotland 14:26 - Dec 22 with 12509 views | DJR |
Even though the SNP are getting it in the neck from the right wing press, interesting to see that both Labour and the Lib Dems there are supporting the Bill.
This is what Nicola Sturgeon has (admirably) said today about the Bill.
"Removing the need for medical diagnosis for a trans person who wants to legally change their gender is actually one of the purposes of this legislation, because the need for that is one of the most intrusive, traumatic and dehumanising parts of the current system.
And as a woman, I know very much what it is like to live with the fear at times of potential violence from men. I’m a feminist. I will argue for women’s rights. I will do everything I can to protect women’s rights for as long as I was.
But I also think it’s an important part of my responsibility to make life a little bit easier for stigmatised minorities in our country, to make their lives a bit better, and to remove some of the trauma that they live with on a day to day basis.
And I think it is important to do that for the tiny minority of trans people in our society and I will never apologise for trying to spread equality, not reduce it in our country."
I wonder if Labour down here would be brave enough to bring forward such a Bill, as clearly the Tories (post-Cameron) have become increasingly intolerant when it comes to social issues. [Post edited 22 Dec 2022 14:29]
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| The trans Bill in Scotland on 10:28 - Dec 23 with 1493 views | Ryorry |
| The trans Bill in Scotland on 10:03 - Dec 23 by Swansea_Blue |
If that's true, by Christ there are a lot of people getting themselves worked up over nothing. Not surprising though. It wasn't that long ago that gay people weren't recognised in law for marriages, etc., and that was a long and bitter battle for them too. |
Please read my post on previous page, including both links at the end. |  |
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| The trans Bill in Scotland on 10:34 - Dec 23 with 1473 views | Darth_Koont |
| The trans Bill in Scotland on 10:03 - Dec 23 by Swansea_Blue |
If that's true, by Christ there are a lot of people getting themselves worked up over nothing. Not surprising though. It wasn't that long ago that gay people weren't recognised in law for marriages, etc., and that was a long and bitter battle for them too. |
In totally unconnected news, the UK leads the way on transphobia.
https://www.itv.com/news/2022-01-26/uk-named-alongside-russia-in-lgbt-hate-repor
“In its report, council members singled out the UK as a country that's seen rising anti-trans rhetoric.
Authors found the "baseless and concerning credibility" these views had been given was "at the expense of both trans people’s civil liberties and women’s and children’s rights" in the country.” |  |
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| The trans Bill in Scotland on 10:37 - Dec 23 with 1450 views | Darth_Koont |
| The trans Bill in Scotland on 10:28 - Dec 23 by Ryorry |
Please read my post on previous page, including both links at the end. |
Unfortunately, the links are fairly radically anti-trans.
On a side note, I don’t think anyone should be linking Linehan. He’s been guilty of pushing an awful lot of trans-hate. | |
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| The trans Bill in Scotland on 10:53 - Dec 23 with 1374 views | LankHenners |
| The trans Bill in Scotland on 09:40 - Dec 23 by Ryorry |
Very well said.
I wasn't going to post on this as when I've done so on numerous previous threads on the topic, I was the lone voice biological female voice, in a minority of one, and on every occasion got a shedload of abuse & character assassination for my pains - a nuanced discussion was impossible (tho it was possible to have one with several trans people on Twitter). The person mostly responsible for all that on here has not posted on this thread, but he might do, so I feel quite shaky now posting this, esp as I've not been in a good emotional state lately (some of you will know I recently lost my old dog) & particularly wanted to avoid confrontation just before Christmas.
Having written that last paragraph, it strikes me that it has echoes of the very heart of the debate - the fears that women and girls have about their safe spaces - I don't just mean toilets/changing rooms (I think there may be ways round that) - but places where women live long-term, like prisons & refuges for women - especially refuges for women. None of you has lived from birth as a biological female, having it repeatedly drummed into you (with good reason) from age 5 or 6 up (if not earlier) to be careful of men, they are potentially dangerous, so that by the time you're 10 or so, you're automatically, instinctively careful, it's in every nerve, muscle & braincell.
I wonder when Nicola Sturgeon last had to spend months in a womens' refuge, fleeing domestic violence, or a few weeks/months/years living in a womens' prison.
Of course trans people, a minority group, should have the same freedoms & rights as anyone else - but not when that means diminishing the freedoms & rights of 50% of the population which have taken centuries to arrive at in the UK. If any politician in the UK wants to pass a bill like this, they'd first have to engage on a massive consultation, education & explanation campaign and take a large majority of those born biological women with them. So far, this has not been done.
Couple of things I've seen elsewhere -
https://grahamlinehan.substack.com/p/this-never-happens?utm_source=substack&
*Edited for grammar [Post edited 23 Dec 2022 9:43]
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Wasn't going to post as there's usually no point due to these sorts of threads usually following the pattern of people going back and forth just making the same points but with increasing anger until admin pulls it, but I feel it's probably right to comment on your sources you've linked as I would say it's very misleading to present them as, as I assume is the intention, innocent 'pro-women' voices.
Linehan was banned (until last night it appears) from Twitter for repeatedly spewing hatred against trans people and his rampant transphobia extended into his 'real life' to the extent it cost him his marriage.
Unless I'm missing something then I don't really see what the GRA has to do with sport specifically, as that's a separate debate in itself and isn't related to people transitioning in the first place. Davies herself has posted some truly awful and vile things on this topic (saying intersex people should have their genitals mutilated at birth to conform to a Western, 'traditional' idea of gender, for example), and it's fairly clear her attitude on this isn't limited to simply 'protecting women's sports' or whatever.
I know this will probably be criticised for playing the man not the ball but as I said I think it's important to note the biases of the sources, plus I don't really think it's appropriate to have anti-trans blogs linked to on the forum, same as it wouldn't for any other bigoted media, from the point of view of it being praised. |  |
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| The trans Bill in Scotland on 10:53 - Dec 23 with 1378 views | DJR |
Proof, if proof were needed, from the Guardian.
"The Guardian has been told that a former adviser to Boris Johnson is behind the UK government’s response to the new gender reform laws. Dougie Smith, who coordinated the “war on woke” pursued by the Johnson administration, has been tasked with “weaponising” the issue of trans rights before the next election.
One cabinet source claims the long-term Tory fixer, who is close to Sunak, is acting as “puppet master” to the equalities minister, Kemi Badenoch, who is fronting the government’s strategy. He was said to be behind Johnson’s strategy to stir divisions on racial, heritage and cultural issues to ally the Tories with working-class voters in “red wall” seats." | | | |
| The trans Bill in Scotland on 11:03 - Dec 23 with 1308 views | DJR |
| The trans Bill in Scotland on 10:53 - Dec 23 by LankHenners |
Wasn't going to post as there's usually no point due to these sorts of threads usually following the pattern of people going back and forth just making the same points but with increasing anger until admin pulls it, but I feel it's probably right to comment on your sources you've linked as I would say it's very misleading to present them as, as I assume is the intention, innocent 'pro-women' voices.
Linehan was banned (until last night it appears) from Twitter for repeatedly spewing hatred against trans people and his rampant transphobia extended into his 'real life' to the extent it cost him his marriage.
Unless I'm missing something then I don't really see what the GRA has to do with sport specifically, as that's a separate debate in itself and isn't related to people transitioning in the first place. Davies herself has posted some truly awful and vile things on this topic (saying intersex people should have their genitals mutilated at birth to conform to a Western, 'traditional' idea of gender, for example), and it's fairly clear her attitude on this isn't limited to simply 'protecting women's sports' or whatever.
I know this will probably be criticised for playing the man not the ball but as I said I think it's important to note the biases of the sources, plus I don't really think it's appropriate to have anti-trans blogs linked to on the forum, same as it wouldn't for any other bigoted media, from the point of view of it being praised. |
Sounds like he's not just anti-trans. According to Wikipedia, in a recent interview he said that anti-trans activism had led him to question the safety of COVID-19 vaccinations and the scientific consensus on climate change. | | | |
| The trans Bill in Scotland on 11:07 - Dec 23 with 1271 views | Ryorry |
| The trans Bill in Scotland on 10:53 - Dec 23 by LankHenners |
Wasn't going to post as there's usually no point due to these sorts of threads usually following the pattern of people going back and forth just making the same points but with increasing anger until admin pulls it, but I feel it's probably right to comment on your sources you've linked as I would say it's very misleading to present them as, as I assume is the intention, innocent 'pro-women' voices.
Linehan was banned (until last night it appears) from Twitter for repeatedly spewing hatred against trans people and his rampant transphobia extended into his 'real life' to the extent it cost him his marriage.
Unless I'm missing something then I don't really see what the GRA has to do with sport specifically, as that's a separate debate in itself and isn't related to people transitioning in the first place. Davies herself has posted some truly awful and vile things on this topic (saying intersex people should have their genitals mutilated at birth to conform to a Western, 'traditional' idea of gender, for example), and it's fairly clear her attitude on this isn't limited to simply 'protecting women's sports' or whatever.
I know this will probably be criticised for playing the man not the ball but as I said I think it's important to note the biases of the sources, plus I don't really think it's appropriate to have anti-trans blogs linked to on the forum, same as it wouldn't for any other bigoted media, from the point of view of it being praised. |
Didn’t know that about the history of either author of links, but despite the history you say they have, looked to me like they were just posting facts on those particular two links. | |
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| The trans Bill in Scotland on 11:20 - Dec 23 with 1236 views | Lord_Lucan |
| The trans Bill in Scotland on 23:20 - Dec 22 by XYZ |
Lol.
Has there ever been a more obvious "I'm not quite what I try to pretend be on here" post?
Your petticoat is showing, my "Lord". |
I really don't understand what you are saying, maybe I'm a bit thick.
My opinion is thus - I don't care if someone wants to pretend they are the opposite sex, I also have no problem with people having gender surgery, in fact I have had many beers with some stunning katoeys in Thailand and enjoyed their company. The locally famous Emma is / was stunning.
You and some others have some preconceived view of me but the truth is you don't know me in real life, you have no idea of who I am or what I stand for as a human being - yet you are comfortable in trying to have a dig at me - well poor show on your part big boy.
My changing room comment was off the cuff but this is about pure common sense and biology, you cannot just be a women because you decide to when you get up in the morning.
I know you may like to sit up there in the clouds thinking you are some kind of wizard but ultimately you are born male or female.
Now then, I appreciate that some people think they have been born in the wrong body but in my opinion - and I have the right to an opinion sunshine - you are stuck with it. I myself, I think I am probably a lesbian trapped in a mans body but there you go, at least I can fart at will.
I think there might be a case for official gender swapping once surgery and hormone treatment has been done but if some bloke can legally change to being a women at the drop of the hat then that is blooming bonkers. |  |
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| The trans Bill in Scotland on 11:25 - Dec 23 with 1224 views | Darth_Koont |
| The trans Bill in Scotland on 11:03 - Dec 23 by DJR |
Sounds like he's not just anti-trans. According to Wikipedia, in a recent interview he said that anti-trans activism had led him to question the safety of COVID-19 vaccinations and the scientific consensus on climate change. |
Indeed. It’s this conspiracy theory/radicalization path (then parroted in the media) that has turned the UK into a hotbed of anti-trans rhetoric. | |
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| The trans Bill in Scotland on 11:28 - Dec 23 with 1205 views | LankHenners |
| The trans Bill in Scotland on 11:07 - Dec 23 by Ryorry |
Didn’t know that about the history of either author of links, but despite the history you say they have, looked to me like they were just posting facts on those particular two links. |
Hmm well I think regardless of the topic ‘just posting facts’ is a bit problematic and whilst everyone has biases to some degree on pretty much everything they talk about I think it’s relevant to mention them in some cases. If a homophobe wrote a blog detailing crimes of homosexual people in response to a motion to increase rights for homosexuals then I think that would be dismissed and criticised pretty sharpish for example.
But anyway I’ll leave it there as there won’t be anything to gain from going down this road. | |
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| The trans Bill in Scotland on 11:42 - Dec 23 with 1161 views | Darth_Koont |
| The trans Bill in Scotland on 11:20 - Dec 23 by Lord_Lucan |
I really don't understand what you are saying, maybe I'm a bit thick.
My opinion is thus - I don't care if someone wants to pretend they are the opposite sex, I also have no problem with people having gender surgery, in fact I have had many beers with some stunning katoeys in Thailand and enjoyed their company. The locally famous Emma is / was stunning.
You and some others have some preconceived view of me but the truth is you don't know me in real life, you have no idea of who I am or what I stand for as a human being - yet you are comfortable in trying to have a dig at me - well poor show on your part big boy.
My changing room comment was off the cuff but this is about pure common sense and biology, you cannot just be a women because you decide to when you get up in the morning.
I know you may like to sit up there in the clouds thinking you are some kind of wizard but ultimately you are born male or female.
Now then, I appreciate that some people think they have been born in the wrong body but in my opinion - and I have the right to an opinion sunshine - you are stuck with it. I myself, I think I am probably a lesbian trapped in a mans body but there you go, at least I can fart at will.
I think there might be a case for official gender swapping once surgery and hormone treatment has been done but if some bloke can legally change to being a women at the drop of the hat then that is blooming bonkers. |
We can all have opinions. But when opinions don’t match reality (or help to demonize and threaten one of the most exposed minorities) then they’re really not very good ones.
No-one is going to change your opinion. Only you can do that. But that will take some reading – and especially from people and sources who know what they’re talking about. | |
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| The trans Bill in Scotland on 11:48 - Dec 23 with 1139 views | MattinLondon |
| The trans Bill in Scotland on 09:17 - Dec 23 by StokieBlue |
You'll not get an answer, I asked last night and he posted a few times after but totally ignored my question.
It's interesting, some posters on here post some horrible stuff, refuse to support it and then we are told to #BeKind when calling it out.
SB [Post edited 23 Dec 2022 9:39]
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I was genuinely interested in why he thought that was the case. |  | | |
| The trans Bill in Scotland on 11:51 - Dec 23 with 1135 views | itfcjoe |
| The trans Bill in Scotland on 09:57 - Dec 23 by DJR |
Very well done for posting. Like you, I don't like the way views are shot down in an aggressive way on this forum. Let's debate, but let's debate kindly. |
Just finished listening to a 6 part podcast by Tortoise Media about the Tavistock centre and raises some interesting points.
There’s basically no room for any debate because both sides are so entrenched in positions that no one will give an inch - but that the podcaster concludes that basically that the culture and politics have overtaken the science by so far that the situation has become a mess as bad actors in all sides of the debate |  |
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| The trans Bill in Scotland on 11:54 - Dec 23 with 1128 views | Darth_Koont |
By the way, this is a good explainer for trans rights and their reality.
https://www.stonewall.org.uk/the-truth-about-trans
Which is one of the reasons that Stonewall are being targeted and pop-up loon groups like LGB Aliiance have been trying to take over the debate. | |
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| The trans Bill in Scotland on 12:01 - Dec 23 with 1104 views | Darth_Koont |
| The trans Bill in Scotland on 11:51 - Dec 23 by itfcjoe |
Just finished listening to a 6 part podcast by Tortoise Media about the Tavistock centre and raises some interesting points.
There’s basically no room for any debate because both sides are so entrenched in positions that no one will give an inch - but that the podcaster concludes that basically that the culture and politics have overtaken the science by so far that the situation has become a mess as bad actors in all sides of the debate |
Who are the bad actors pushing trans rights? Just so we’re clear.
“Both sides-ing” this needs some evidence. I know who the prominent anti-trans feminists and organisations are, people like Linehan and Sharron Davies, plus the media and politicians turning this into an anti-woke culture war.
The “debate” is massively one-sided as trans people themselves don’t really feature anything like as much as the pundits demonizing them. | |
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| The trans Bill in Scotland on 12:01 - Dec 23 with 1106 views | Mullet |
| The trans Bill in Scotland on 10:53 - Dec 23 by LankHenners |
Wasn't going to post as there's usually no point due to these sorts of threads usually following the pattern of people going back and forth just making the same points but with increasing anger until admin pulls it, but I feel it's probably right to comment on your sources you've linked as I would say it's very misleading to present them as, as I assume is the intention, innocent 'pro-women' voices.
Linehan was banned (until last night it appears) from Twitter for repeatedly spewing hatred against trans people and his rampant transphobia extended into his 'real life' to the extent it cost him his marriage.
Unless I'm missing something then I don't really see what the GRA has to do with sport specifically, as that's a separate debate in itself and isn't related to people transitioning in the first place. Davies herself has posted some truly awful and vile things on this topic (saying intersex people should have their genitals mutilated at birth to conform to a Western, 'traditional' idea of gender, for example), and it's fairly clear her attitude on this isn't limited to simply 'protecting women's sports' or whatever.
I know this will probably be criticised for playing the man not the ball but as I said I think it's important to note the biases of the sources, plus I don't really think it's appropriate to have anti-trans blogs linked to on the forum, same as it wouldn't for any other bigoted media, from the point of view of it being praised. |
Linehan's fall into disrepute is sad to see, but it struck me as too coincidental he was welcomed back on twitter in the way he was. I don't follow him but actually saw his first tweet on my TL seconds after he posted it.
It's pretty clear Elon has tweaked the platform for his own amusement too. |  |
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| The trans Bill in Scotland on 12:01 - Dec 23 with 1105 views | Bobbychase |
| The trans Bill in Scotland on 09:40 - Dec 23 by Ryorry |
Very well said.
I wasn't going to post on this as when I've done so on numerous previous threads on the topic, I was the lone voice biological female voice, in a minority of one, and on every occasion got a shedload of abuse & character assassination for my pains - a nuanced discussion was impossible (tho it was possible to have one with several trans people on Twitter). The person mostly responsible for all that on here has not posted on this thread, but he might do, so I feel quite shaky now posting this, esp as I've not been in a good emotional state lately (some of you will know I recently lost my old dog) & particularly wanted to avoid confrontation just before Christmas.
Having written that last paragraph, it strikes me that it has echoes of the very heart of the debate - the fears that women and girls have about their safe spaces - I don't just mean toilets/changing rooms (I think there may be ways round that) - but places where women live long-term, like prisons & refuges for women - especially refuges for women. None of you has lived from birth as a biological female, having it repeatedly drummed into you (with good reason) from age 5 or 6 up (if not earlier) to be careful of men, they are potentially dangerous, so that by the time you're 10 or so, you're automatically, instinctively careful, it's in every nerve, muscle & braincell.
I wonder when Nicola Sturgeon last had to spend months in a womens' refuge, fleeing domestic violence, or a few weeks/months/years living in a womens' prison.
Of course trans people, a minority group, should have the same freedoms & rights as anyone else - but not when that means diminishing the freedoms & rights of 50% of the population which have taken centuries to arrive at in the UK. If any politician in the UK wants to pass a bill like this, they'd first have to engage on a massive consultation, education & explanation campaign and take a large majority of those born biological women with them. So far, this has not been done.
Couple of things I've seen elsewhere -
https://grahamlinehan.substack.com/p/this-never-happens?utm_source=substack&
*Edited for grammar [Post edited 23 Dec 2022 9:43]
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It is important to hear women's voices on this. Otherwise it's a football forum of (probably mostly) men telling women why single-sex spaces aren't that important. Not really a subject we are experts on. So thanks for posting. |  |
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| The trans Bill in Scotland on 12:17 - Dec 23 with 1021 views | Lord_Lucan |
| The trans Bill in Scotland on 11:42 - Dec 23 by Darth_Koont |
We can all have opinions. But when opinions don’t match reality (or help to demonize and threaten one of the most exposed minorities) then they’re really not very good ones.
No-one is going to change your opinion. Only you can do that. But that will take some reading – and especially from people and sources who know what they’re talking about. |
That's a bit like - We can all have opinions but you are wrong.
I'm not saying some people don't have issues and I am not saying that we should burn people at the stake - although it would seem that this is what certain people are implying because they think that it some bizarre way it enforces their view.
I'm coming from a biological position | |
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| The trans Bill in Scotland on 12:22 - Dec 23 with 984 views | NeedhamChris |
| The trans Bill in Scotland on 11:07 - Dec 23 by Ryorry |
Didn’t know that about the history of either author of links, but despite the history you say they have, looked to me like they were just posting facts on those particular two links. |
In a debate like this - there isn't really any indisputable "facts" as you say. Only the perceived facts through the lens of whoever is sharing them.
However I do think we have a responsibility to reflect on who we agree with. Personally, agreeing with the "facts" that have been explained by someone who compared gender questioning to Nazi experimentation would make me question my sources |  |
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| The trans Bill in Scotland on 12:23 - Dec 23 with 977 views | Mullet |
| The trans Bill in Scotland on 11:51 - Dec 23 by itfcjoe |
Just finished listening to a 6 part podcast by Tortoise Media about the Tavistock centre and raises some interesting points.
There’s basically no room for any debate because both sides are so entrenched in positions that no one will give an inch - but that the podcaster concludes that basically that the culture and politics have overtaken the science by so far that the situation has become a mess as bad actors in all sides of the debate |
Is it worth the investment? I do like Tortoise media although their short news pods are more and more ads these days. But they advertised that Tavistock series pretty heavily.
We've seen more and more students transition some when they join high school and had mixed responses from their parents. It is a minefield for us staff, but for the kids themselves it's incredibly difficult depending on their social circle.
One thing that has surprised me is that the lack of bullying or at least overt bullying has been noticeable. I feel if someone tried to be openly trans when we were at school they'd have not stood a chance. | |
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| The trans Bill in Scotland on 12:25 - Dec 23 with 958 views | monytowbray |
| The trans Bill in Scotland on 12:22 - Dec 23 by NeedhamChris |
In a debate like this - there isn't really any indisputable "facts" as you say. Only the perceived facts through the lens of whoever is sharing them.
However I do think we have a responsibility to reflect on who we agree with. Personally, agreeing with the "facts" that have been explained by someone who compared gender questioning to Nazi experimentation would make me question my sources |
Don’t you dare call her a transphobe though, she only shares the views of outspoken transphobes over and over whilst presenting trans people as a threat of sexual violence despite being told evidence, logic and examples don’t exist to support these claims made by the far right angles she parrots. But deffo not transphobic. [Post edited 23 Dec 2022 12:26]
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| The trans Bill in Scotland on 12:28 - Dec 23 with 924 views | monytowbray |
| The trans Bill in Scotland on 12:01 - Dec 23 by Bobbychase |
It is important to hear women's voices on this. Otherwise it's a football forum of (probably mostly) men telling women why single-sex spaces aren't that important. Not really a subject we are experts on. So thanks for posting. |
Bar the fact many women disagree with her.
What about the voice of trans people? To my knowledge we have none here. | |
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| The trans Bill in Scotland on 12:29 - Dec 23 with 893 views | NeedhamChris |
| The trans Bill in Scotland on 12:28 - Dec 23 by monytowbray |
Bar the fact many women disagree with her.
What about the voice of trans people? To my knowledge we have none here. |
The sad thing is we probably do....and why on earth would you feel comfortable to share it here. [Post edited 23 Dec 2022 12:32]
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| The trans Bill in Scotland on 12:34 - Dec 23 with 843 views | itfcjoe |
| The trans Bill in Scotland on 12:23 - Dec 23 by Mullet |
Is it worth the investment? I do like Tortoise media although their short news pods are more and more ads these days. But they advertised that Tavistock series pretty heavily.
We've seen more and more students transition some when they join high school and had mixed responses from their parents. It is a minefield for us staff, but for the kids themselves it's incredibly difficult depending on their social circle.
One thing that has surprised me is that the lack of bullying or at least overt bullying has been noticeable. I feel if someone tried to be openly trans when we were at school they'd have not stood a chance. |
I’d say so, plenty of interesting bits there but it also just shows how difficult the debate is as things that need to be explored are just batted away as no go areas. Like any looking into mental health issues, social contagion etc.
Like anything else in this country at the moment, the system can’t keep up with the demand and it falls over. This felt a more deliberate action on both sides though. The centre was over flooded with demand when it was made easier for people to be referred (ie by school counsellors rather than medical pros) and it suits the current Govt to let it be overwhelmed for political reasons. | |
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| The trans Bill in Scotland on 12:36 - Dec 23 with 811 views | PhilTWTD |
| The trans Bill in Scotland on 12:29 - Dec 23 by NeedhamChris |
The sad thing is we probably do....and why on earth would you feel comfortable to share it here. [Post edited 23 Dec 2022 12:32]
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Actually we have had someone share that information on here a little while back and they received a positive response. |  | | |
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