| The trans Bill in Scotland 14:26 - Dec 22 with 12510 views | DJR |
Even though the SNP are getting it in the neck from the right wing press, interesting to see that both Labour and the Lib Dems there are supporting the Bill.
This is what Nicola Sturgeon has (admirably) said today about the Bill.
"Removing the need for medical diagnosis for a trans person who wants to legally change their gender is actually one of the purposes of this legislation, because the need for that is one of the most intrusive, traumatic and dehumanising parts of the current system.
And as a woman, I know very much what it is like to live with the fear at times of potential violence from men. I’m a feminist. I will argue for women’s rights. I will do everything I can to protect women’s rights for as long as I was.
But I also think it’s an important part of my responsibility to make life a little bit easier for stigmatised minorities in our country, to make their lives a bit better, and to remove some of the trauma that they live with on a day to day basis.
And I think it is important to do that for the tiny minority of trans people in our society and I will never apologise for trying to spread equality, not reduce it in our country."
I wonder if Labour down here would be brave enough to bring forward such a Bill, as clearly the Tories (post-Cameron) have become increasingly intolerant when it comes to social issues. [Post edited 22 Dec 2022 14:29]
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| The trans Bill in Scotland on 12:39 - Dec 23 with 1541 views | itfcjoe |
| The trans Bill in Scotland on 12:28 - Dec 23 by monytowbray |
Bar the fact many women disagree with her.
What about the voice of trans people? To my knowledge we have none here. |
So only women who agree with you are able to be the women’s voices in this debate? |  |
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| The trans Bill in Scotland on 12:43 - Dec 23 with 1494 views | NeedhamChris |
| The trans Bill in Scotland on 12:36 - Dec 23 by PhilTWTD |
Actually we have had someone share that information on here a little while back and they received a positive response. |
Ah my apologies - I think the general point stands that these types of conversation bring out views that don't encourage disclosure.
That's not a pop at TWTD by the way - football grounds/forums aren't always the most tolerant of environments (she's a w***e etc). |  |
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| The trans Bill in Scotland on 12:44 - Dec 23 with 1475 views | Darth_Koont |
| The trans Bill in Scotland on 12:17 - Dec 23 by Lord_Lucan |
That's a bit like - We can all have opinions but you are wrong.
I'm not saying some people don't have issues and I am not saying that we should burn people at the stake - although it would seem that this is what certain people are implying because they think that it some bizarre way it enforces their view.
I'm coming from a biological position |
I think your opinion is uninformed.
That’s why I’m giving you the benefit of the doubt. |  |
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| The trans Bill in Scotland on 12:45 - Dec 23 with 1454 views | NeedhamChris |
| The trans Bill in Scotland on 12:39 - Dec 23 by itfcjoe |
So only women who agree with you are able to be the women’s voices in this debate? |
I think you're both right here.
It annoys me when you see phrases like "womens voices" banded about in these debates - as in reality that group will consist of a wide range of different opinions for and against. | |
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| The trans Bill in Scotland on 12:49 - Dec 23 with 1402 views | monytowbray |
| The trans Bill in Scotland on 12:39 - Dec 23 by itfcjoe |
So only women who agree with you are able to be the women’s voices in this debate? |
Sounds like nothing I said, does it.
Strawman. [Post edited 23 Dec 2022 12:49]
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| The trans Bill in Scotland on 12:51 - Dec 23 with 1410 views | Darth_Koont |
| The trans Bill in Scotland on 12:39 - Dec 23 by itfcjoe |
So only women who agree with you are able to be the women’s voices in this debate? |
Don’t be daft.
The women who support trans rights aren’t all that present in the debate either. Just like trans men and women aren’t.
As much as you’ve “both-sidesed” it and say it’s about letting people voice their opinions, the “debate” is massively lop-sided and discriminatory.
We’ve been exactly here before whenever any minority has had to fight for their rights. | |
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| The trans Bill in Scotland on 13:00 - Dec 23 with 1321 views | Ryorry |
| The trans Bill in Scotland on 12:51 - Dec 23 by Darth_Koont |
Don’t be daft.
The women who support trans rights aren’t all that present in the debate either. Just like trans men and women aren’t.
As much as you’ve “both-sidesed” it and say it’s about letting people voice their opinions, the “debate” is massively lop-sided and discriminatory.
We’ve been exactly here before whenever any minority has had to fight for their rights. |
Excuse me, I support trans rights (and no-one here knows where I am on the gender-fluidity scale btw). But not to the point where my own & other biological womens' rights are diminished.
This was a courteous debate until a few posts ago, and thank you and others for that, esp BobbyChase who obviously gets it. |  |
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| The trans Bill in Scotland on 13:02 - Dec 23 with 1337 views | itfcjoe |
| The trans Bill in Scotland on 12:49 - Dec 23 by monytowbray |
Sounds like nothing I said, does it.
Strawman. [Post edited 23 Dec 2022 12:49]
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How so? It was in response to someone saying it was good to hear a woman’s view on it | |
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| The trans Bill in Scotland on 13:06 - Dec 23 with 1320 views | itfcjoe |
| The trans Bill in Scotland on 12:51 - Dec 23 by Darth_Koont |
Don’t be daft.
The women who support trans rights aren’t all that present in the debate either. Just like trans men and women aren’t.
As much as you’ve “both-sidesed” it and say it’s about letting people voice their opinions, the “debate” is massively lop-sided and discriminatory.
We’ve been exactly here before whenever any minority has had to fight for their rights. |
Have you ever considered that it is lop sided in the main because most people naturally sit on one side of the debate and are yet to be convinced that TWAW are TMAM | |
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| The trans Bill in Scotland on 13:11 - Dec 23 with 1279 views | NeedhamChris |
| The trans Bill in Scotland on 13:00 - Dec 23 by Ryorry |
Excuse me, I support trans rights (and no-one here knows where I am on the gender-fluidity scale btw). But not to the point where my own & other biological womens' rights are diminished.
This was a courteous debate until a few posts ago, and thank you and others for that, esp BobbyChase who obviously gets it. |
I don't want to be accused of picking a fight, but would be interesting to know what rights you had that are being diminished? | |
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| The trans Bill in Scotland on 13:11 - Dec 23 with 1280 views | PhilTWTD |
| The trans Bill in Scotland on 12:43 - Dec 23 by NeedhamChris |
Ah my apologies - I think the general point stands that these types of conversation bring out views that don't encourage disclosure.
That's not a pop at TWTD by the way - football grounds/forums aren't always the most tolerant of environments (she's a w***e etc). |
I agree with that and I'm sure 20 years ago gay fans might have felt reticent about making themselves known on here for similar reasons. |  | | |
| The trans Bill in Scotland on 13:15 - Dec 23 with 1234 views | Darth_Koont |
| The trans Bill in Scotland on 13:06 - Dec 23 by itfcjoe |
Have you ever considered that it is lop sided in the main because most people naturally sit on one side of the debate and are yet to be convinced that TWAW are TMAM |
That’s always the same with minority rights. There’d be no struggle otherwise.
You haven’t answered anything I’ve put to you on this thread so if this is all you’ve got then we’re clearly better off leaving it here. | |
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| The trans Bill in Scotland on 13:19 - Dec 23 with 1227 views | PassionNotAnger |
| The trans Bill in Scotland on 20:23 - Dec 22 by Lord_Lucan |
Ok, everyone seems to be steering away from this but I’ll bite.
What a load of insane sh1te.
Expect a sex pest in a women’s changing room near you soon.
What do the youngsters say - “Own it” - Well “Own” this piece of Sh1t baby. |
Someone who uses racist stereotypes also being lacking awareness on this topic shocker! | | | |
| The trans Bill in Scotland on 13:26 - Dec 23 with 1183 views | PassionNotAnger |
| The trans Bill in Scotland on 11:20 - Dec 23 by Lord_Lucan |
I really don't understand what you are saying, maybe I'm a bit thick.
My opinion is thus - I don't care if someone wants to pretend they are the opposite sex, I also have no problem with people having gender surgery, in fact I have had many beers with some stunning katoeys in Thailand and enjoyed their company. The locally famous Emma is / was stunning.
You and some others have some preconceived view of me but the truth is you don't know me in real life, you have no idea of who I am or what I stand for as a human being - yet you are comfortable in trying to have a dig at me - well poor show on your part big boy.
My changing room comment was off the cuff but this is about pure common sense and biology, you cannot just be a women because you decide to when you get up in the morning.
I know you may like to sit up there in the clouds thinking you are some kind of wizard but ultimately you are born male or female.
Now then, I appreciate that some people think they have been born in the wrong body but in my opinion - and I have the right to an opinion sunshine - you are stuck with it. I myself, I think I am probably a lesbian trapped in a mans body but there you go, at least I can fart at will.
I think there might be a case for official gender swapping once surgery and hormone treatment has been done but if some bloke can legally change to being a women at the drop of the hat then that is blooming bonkers. |
The fact you choose the use the word “pretend” demonstrates perfectly just what an ignorant transphobic individual you are. Any words used before or after are just a smokescreen to try and hide your prejudice.
Personally I think it’s better when racists and transphobic people (along with homophobes) out themselves so they can be called out and recognized for the prejudiced bigots they are | | | |
| The trans Bill in Scotland on 13:28 - Dec 23 with 1164 views | itfcjoe |
Said woman never claimed to, and merely offered her view as a woman in the debate. | |
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| The trans Bill in Scotland on 13:32 - Dec 23 with 1093 views | monytowbray |
| The trans Bill in Scotland on 13:28 - Dec 23 by itfcjoe |
Said woman never claimed to, and merely offered her view as a woman in the debate. |
So her opinion isn’t of value then?
You’ve really dug your own hole of logical cognitive dissonance here. | |
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| The trans Bill in Scotland on 13:33 - Dec 23 with 1090 views | monytowbray |
| The trans Bill in Scotland on 13:26 - Dec 23 by PassionNotAnger |
The fact you choose the use the word “pretend” demonstrates perfectly just what an ignorant transphobic individual you are. Any words used before or after are just a smokescreen to try and hide your prejudice.
Personally I think it’s better when racists and transphobic people (along with homophobes) out themselves so they can be called out and recognized for the prejudiced bigots they are |
It never fails to amaze me where all our resident “anti-discrimination” posters go when it’s one of the in-crowd doing it. | |
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| The trans Bill in Scotland on 13:34 - Dec 23 with 1099 views | Kievthegreat |
| The trans Bill in Scotland on 13:06 - Dec 23 by itfcjoe |
Have you ever considered that it is lop sided in the main because most people naturally sit on one side of the debate and are yet to be convinced that TWAW are TMAM |
It's a very nuanced issue. One thing it isn't is lopsided.
https://yougov.co.uk/topics/society/articles-reports/2022/07/20/where-does-briti
When asked about TWAW and TMAM, "38% agreeing and 40% disagreeing that a trans woman is a woman, and a 39% / 39% split on whether or not a trans man is a man (net scores of -2 and ±0, respectively)." It's very split.
There are some areas where there are clear majorities on very specific issues such as women's sports, but generally the public are split. |  | | |
| The trans Bill in Scotland on 13:39 - Dec 23 with 1080 views | Lord_Lucan |
| The trans Bill in Scotland on 13:26 - Dec 23 by PassionNotAnger |
The fact you choose the use the word “pretend” demonstrates perfectly just what an ignorant transphobic individual you are. Any words used before or after are just a smokescreen to try and hide your prejudice.
Personally I think it’s better when racists and transphobic people (along with homophobes) out themselves so they can be called out and recognized for the prejudiced bigots they are |
Why? I think that people born male or female are biologically male or female.
They may be born in the wrong body but they are still biologically male or female.
I don't have a problem with what they want or need to do to themselves to get over this problem and I wouldn't treat them any different than I would treat anyone else - and if they were a family member I would support them as best I can - but they would remain biologically male or female.
Thanks for your kind comments by the way, you seem a great guy. |  |
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| The trans Bill in Scotland on 13:41 - Dec 23 with 1077 views | Zapers |
| The trans Bill in Scotland on 09:40 - Dec 23 by Ryorry |
Very well said.
I wasn't going to post on this as when I've done so on numerous previous threads on the topic, I was the lone voice biological female voice, in a minority of one, and on every occasion got a shedload of abuse & character assassination for my pains - a nuanced discussion was impossible (tho it was possible to have one with several trans people on Twitter). The person mostly responsible for all that on here has not posted on this thread, but he might do, so I feel quite shaky now posting this, esp as I've not been in a good emotional state lately (some of you will know I recently lost my old dog) & particularly wanted to avoid confrontation just before Christmas.
Having written that last paragraph, it strikes me that it has echoes of the very heart of the debate - the fears that women and girls have about their safe spaces - I don't just mean toilets/changing rooms (I think there may be ways round that) - but places where women live long-term, like prisons & refuges for women - especially refuges for women. None of you has lived from birth as a biological female, having it repeatedly drummed into you (with good reason) from age 5 or 6 up (if not earlier) to be careful of men, they are potentially dangerous, so that by the time you're 10 or so, you're automatically, instinctively careful, it's in every nerve, muscle & braincell.
I wonder when Nicola Sturgeon last had to spend months in a womens' refuge, fleeing domestic violence, or a few weeks/months/years living in a womens' prison.
Of course trans people, a minority group, should have the same freedoms & rights as anyone else - but not when that means diminishing the freedoms & rights of 50% of the population which have taken centuries to arrive at in the UK. If any politician in the UK wants to pass a bill like this, they'd first have to engage on a massive consultation, education & explanation campaign and take a large majority of those born biological women with them. So far, this has not been done.
Couple of things I've seen elsewhere -
https://grahamlinehan.substack.com/p/this-never-happens?utm_source=substack&
*Edited for grammar [Post edited 23 Dec 2022 9:43]
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Only a woman knows how a woman feels Ryorry. Well done, and well said. | | | |
| The trans Bill in Scotland on 13:44 - Dec 23 with 1058 views | monytowbray |
| The trans Bill in Scotland on 13:39 - Dec 23 by Lord_Lucan |
Why? I think that people born male or female are biologically male or female.
They may be born in the wrong body but they are still biologically male or female.
I don't have a problem with what they want or need to do to themselves to get over this problem and I wouldn't treat them any different than I would treat anyone else - and if they were a family member I would support them as best I can - but they would remain biologically male or female.
Thanks for your kind comments by the way, you seem a great guy. |
Biology has nothing to do with gender. One is biological and not changeable (for now), the other is a construct of society pigeonholing that biological factor into a hierarchical system, historically (and still to this day) largely dictated to benefit those who are biologically male and gender typical of men.
Learn about this concept and why that is, the world may make more sense to you. | |
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| The trans Bill in Scotland on 13:49 - Dec 23 with 1029 views | Ryorry |
| The trans Bill in Scotland on 13:28 - Dec 23 by itfcjoe |
Said woman never claimed to, and merely offered her view as a woman in the debate. |
The fact that the poster I referred to in my first post (the lengthy one, p2 I think), has returned to post his abuse, defamation (edit: outright lies actually), & false labelling of me for the umpteenth time, despite somehow having got round the deliberate mutual ignore that Gav placed on us, whilst simultaneously deliberately disregarding everything I actually said, means I'm now out of this thread. [Post edited 23 Dec 2022 14:01]
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| The trans Bill in Scotland on 13:56 - Dec 23 with 981 views | itfcjoe |
| The trans Bill in Scotland on 13:32 - Dec 23 by monytowbray |
So her opinion isn’t of value then?
You’ve really dug your own hole of logical cognitive dissonance here. |
I really haven’t, it’s a logical position and you’ve just jumped on Bobby Chase’s post unnecessarily to have a go at Ryorry - the one person in the thread who actually is affected by the conflicting rights at play | |
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| The trans Bill in Scotland on 13:59 - Dec 23 with 1007 views | monytowbray |
| The trans Bill in Scotland on 13:56 - Dec 23 by itfcjoe |
I really haven’t, it’s a logical position and you’ve just jumped on Bobby Chase’s post unnecessarily to have a go at Ryorry - the one person in the thread who actually is affected by the conflicting rights at play |
I didn’t jump on anything, you built the strawman. Justifying transphobia because a woman said it is BANTZ | |
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