| The trans Bill in Scotland 14:26 - Dec 22 with 12511 views | DJR |
Even though the SNP are getting it in the neck from the right wing press, interesting to see that both Labour and the Lib Dems there are supporting the Bill.
This is what Nicola Sturgeon has (admirably) said today about the Bill.
"Removing the need for medical diagnosis for a trans person who wants to legally change their gender is actually one of the purposes of this legislation, because the need for that is one of the most intrusive, traumatic and dehumanising parts of the current system.
And as a woman, I know very much what it is like to live with the fear at times of potential violence from men. I’m a feminist. I will argue for women’s rights. I will do everything I can to protect women’s rights for as long as I was.
But I also think it’s an important part of my responsibility to make life a little bit easier for stigmatised minorities in our country, to make their lives a bit better, and to remove some of the trauma that they live with on a day to day basis.
And I think it is important to do that for the tiny minority of trans people in our society and I will never apologise for trying to spread equality, not reduce it in our country."
I wonder if Labour down here would be brave enough to bring forward such a Bill, as clearly the Tories (post-Cameron) have become increasingly intolerant when it comes to social issues. [Post edited 22 Dec 2022 14:29]
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| The trans Bill in Scotland on 14:00 - Dec 23 with 1506 views | DJR |
Interesting to consider Peter Tatchell's view on the issue, which is the following.
“For over five decades, I have argued that women’s rights are human rights and supported hundreds of women’s rights campaigns in the UK and worldwide. There can be no liberation without women’s liberation.
Equally, for the same five decades, I have supported the struggle for trans respect, dignity and human rights. I see no contradiction between trans and women’s liberation. Both have my support. I echo the stance of pro-trans feminists.
I oppose the trans critical views of Kathleen Stock and others but urge an end to abuse and intimidation by some people on both sides, including the insults, threats and smears directed against trans people and trans allies like myself.
Biological sex is a fact. So is gender identity. Both are real. Biological sex and gender identity are different but equally valid. Trans women are women but not the same as other women. They are different from biological women and that difference is legitimate and should be accepted. I respect both.
Like many women, I stand with trans people. I support protection for them and for other women. Women’s safety is a very important concern but it does not require or justify the exclusion of all trans women from women’s spaces. Some women’s centres have accepted trans women for many years without a problem. They vet all women users and rightly exclude anyone who acts in an abusive, threatening or harmful way.
Many institutions, from schools to Pride events and GB News, have gender-neutral toilets with lockable cubicles. There is no evidence that this has in any way compromised women’s well-safety and being.
Obviously, any person who claims to be a trans woman and presents with a beard, engages in sexual harassment or exposes male genitals in women’s spaces, should be ejected. Sexual harassment and unwanted genital exposure that could cause offence is wrong and should not be tolerated, regardless of whether it is perpetrated by biological women or trans women. However, such unacceptable behaviour by trans women has almost never happened and is totally unrepresentative of how almost all trans women respect the sensitivity and dignity of other women.
Much women-on-women violence and sexual assault is not by trans women. It’s perpetrated by biological women. Any women, including trans women, with a history of sexual or violent offences against women, should not be placed in the general population of women’s prisons, unless there is strong evidence that they have reformed. Even then, they should be subject to monitoring and review, as would happen with any biological woman prisoner with a history of similar offences against other women. If there is evidence that a trans woman is an on-going threat to other women, they should be placed in a segregation unit within a women’s prison, and not be permitted to mix with the general women’s prison population without prison staff supervision.
These practical solutions can be the basis on which we resolve the legitimate concerns about women’s welfare and security.
It is wrong to demonise and exclude all trans women based on what a few bad trans people do, in the same way that it is wrong to demonise and exclude all Muslims because a tiny handful are terrorists. Trans women who are a danger to women should be excluded but not the other 99.9%. I equally believe that gay or bisexual men who are violent predators should be excluded from gay safe spaces.
Trans critical women do not speak for all women. Many women see no conflict between feminism and trans human rights. I support them. I am an ally of trans-inclusive feminists.
Trans women are not the enemy of other women. The fight by some women against trans inclusion is a distraction from the major inequalities and abuses that all women, including trans women, are at risk of: violence, rape, harassment, domestic violence, unequal pay, lack of affordable child-care, under-representation in senior positions and the trafficking of women into sexual slavery and domestic servitude.
The huge energy that some women put into opposing trans rights and inclusion is undermining, and deflecting from, the struggles against these many serious oppressions that women still face.
I believe we should all stand together, whatever our biological sex or gender identity, to oppose these sexist injustices.
Let’s not divide and fight each other. It weakens both the women’s and trans movements. The only people who gain from the ‘trans wars’ are misogynists, transphobes, religious conservatives and the far right. Fight both misogyny and transphobia. Unity and solidarity! Together, we are stronger." [Post edited 23 Dec 2022 14:02]
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| The trans Bill in Scotland on 14:08 - Dec 23 with 1446 views | itfcjoe |
| The trans Bill in Scotland on 13:59 - Dec 23 by monytowbray |
I didn’t jump on anything, you built the strawman. Justifying transphobia because a woman said it is BANTZ |
What a load of rubbish - look at the post you replied to first from BobbyChase |  |
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| The trans Bill in Scotland on 14:13 - Dec 23 with 1415 views | monytowbray |
| The trans Bill in Scotland on 14:08 - Dec 23 by itfcjoe |
What a load of rubbish - look at the post you replied to first from BobbyChase |
Her take is rubbish. Stop lauding it. |  |
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| The trans Bill in Scotland on 14:15 - Dec 23 with 1412 views | itfcjoe |
| The trans Bill in Scotland on 14:00 - Dec 23 by DJR |
Interesting to consider Peter Tatchell's view on the issue, which is the following.
“For over five decades, I have argued that women’s rights are human rights and supported hundreds of women’s rights campaigns in the UK and worldwide. There can be no liberation without women’s liberation.
Equally, for the same five decades, I have supported the struggle for trans respect, dignity and human rights. I see no contradiction between trans and women’s liberation. Both have my support. I echo the stance of pro-trans feminists.
I oppose the trans critical views of Kathleen Stock and others but urge an end to abuse and intimidation by some people on both sides, including the insults, threats and smears directed against trans people and trans allies like myself.
Biological sex is a fact. So is gender identity. Both are real. Biological sex and gender identity are different but equally valid. Trans women are women but not the same as other women. They are different from biological women and that difference is legitimate and should be accepted. I respect both.
Like many women, I stand with trans people. I support protection for them and for other women. Women’s safety is a very important concern but it does not require or justify the exclusion of all trans women from women’s spaces. Some women’s centres have accepted trans women for many years without a problem. They vet all women users and rightly exclude anyone who acts in an abusive, threatening or harmful way.
Many institutions, from schools to Pride events and GB News, have gender-neutral toilets with lockable cubicles. There is no evidence that this has in any way compromised women’s well-safety and being.
Obviously, any person who claims to be a trans woman and presents with a beard, engages in sexual harassment or exposes male genitals in women’s spaces, should be ejected. Sexual harassment and unwanted genital exposure that could cause offence is wrong and should not be tolerated, regardless of whether it is perpetrated by biological women or trans women. However, such unacceptable behaviour by trans women has almost never happened and is totally unrepresentative of how almost all trans women respect the sensitivity and dignity of other women.
Much women-on-women violence and sexual assault is not by trans women. It’s perpetrated by biological women. Any women, including trans women, with a history of sexual or violent offences against women, should not be placed in the general population of women’s prisons, unless there is strong evidence that they have reformed. Even then, they should be subject to monitoring and review, as would happen with any biological woman prisoner with a history of similar offences against other women. If there is evidence that a trans woman is an on-going threat to other women, they should be placed in a segregation unit within a women’s prison, and not be permitted to mix with the general women’s prison population without prison staff supervision.
These practical solutions can be the basis on which we resolve the legitimate concerns about women’s welfare and security.
It is wrong to demonise and exclude all trans women based on what a few bad trans people do, in the same way that it is wrong to demonise and exclude all Muslims because a tiny handful are terrorists. Trans women who are a danger to women should be excluded but not the other 99.9%. I equally believe that gay or bisexual men who are violent predators should be excluded from gay safe spaces.
Trans critical women do not speak for all women. Many women see no conflict between feminism and trans human rights. I support them. I am an ally of trans-inclusive feminists.
Trans women are not the enemy of other women. The fight by some women against trans inclusion is a distraction from the major inequalities and abuses that all women, including trans women, are at risk of: violence, rape, harassment, domestic violence, unequal pay, lack of affordable child-care, under-representation in senior positions and the trafficking of women into sexual slavery and domestic servitude.
The huge energy that some women put into opposing trans rights and inclusion is undermining, and deflecting from, the struggles against these many serious oppressions that women still face.
I believe we should all stand together, whatever our biological sex or gender identity, to oppose these sexist injustices.
Let’s not divide and fight each other. It weakens both the women’s and trans movements. The only people who gain from the ‘trans wars’ are misogynists, transphobes, religious conservatives and the far right. Fight both misogyny and transphobia. Unity and solidarity! Together, we are stronger." [Post edited 23 Dec 2022 14:02]
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I think it’s a very fair view and one most would agree with more generally as allows itself the space to be nuanced.
But when he says ‘trans women are women but not the same as other women’ and that trans women who present with a beard should be ejected from women’s spaces, would be seen as transphobic by many in this debate | |
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| The trans Bill in Scotland on 14:16 - Dec 23 with 1395 views | itfcjoe |
| The trans Bill in Scotland on 14:13 - Dec 23 by monytowbray |
Her take is rubbish. Stop lauding it. |
Again, totally missing any point | |
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| The trans Bill in Scotland on 14:24 - Dec 23 with 1340 views | monytowbray |
| The trans Bill in Scotland on 14:16 - Dec 23 by itfcjoe |
Again, totally missing any point |
And what “point” is that? | |
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| The trans Bill in Scotland on 14:28 - Dec 23 with 1323 views | itfcjoe |
| The trans Bill in Scotland on 14:24 - Dec 23 by monytowbray |
And what “point” is that? |
That Ryorry’s perspective as a female in the debate is one that no one else was bringing so it was a valuable input into the debate; just as it would have been if her views were aligned with yours. | |
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| The trans Bill in Scotland (n/t) on 14:35 - Dec 23 with 1260 views | monytowbray |
| The trans Bill in Scotland on 14:28 - Dec 23 by itfcjoe |
That Ryorry’s perspective as a female in the debate is one that no one else was bringing so it was a valuable input into the debate; just as it would have been if her views were aligned with yours. |
This post has been edited by an administrator | |
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| The trans Bill in Scotland on 14:40 - Dec 23 with 1229 views | itfcjoe |
| The trans Bill in Scotland (n/t) on 14:35 - Dec 23 by monytowbray |
This post has been edited by an administrator |
Laughable that you basically go back to my first reply which you claimed was a straw man.
Her views are not important in this debate, as Bobby Chase posted, because you have declared them wrong | |
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| The trans Bill in Scotland (n/t) on 14:49 - Dec 23 with 1177 views | monytowbray |
| The trans Bill in Scotland on 14:40 - Dec 23 by itfcjoe |
Laughable that you basically go back to my first reply which you claimed was a straw man.
Her views are not important in this debate, as Bobby Chase posted, because you have declared them wrong |
This post has been edited by an administrator | |
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| The trans Bill in Scotland on 14:50 - Dec 23 with 1165 views | itfcjoe |
| The trans Bill in Scotland (n/t) on 14:49 - Dec 23 by monytowbray |
This post has been edited by an administrator |
No, BobbyChase made it about that, and it was a fair point.
Ryorry is not how you describe her either | |
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| The trans Bill in Scotland on 14:55 - Dec 23 with 1127 views | monytowbray |
| The trans Bill in Scotland on 14:50 - Dec 23 by itfcjoe |
No, BobbyChase made it about that, and it was a fair point.
Ryorry is not how you describe her either |
And my point was in regards to the fact she doesn’t automatically have any valid points because of her biological sex, nor is her take that of the majority of women (that’s a objective fact). You built a strawman using identity politics, and now seem to be falling over your own GOTCHA moment.
She is a transphobe, and no surprise you wouldn’t see this as let’s be honest… You’ve got a p1ss poor track record here too. [Post edited 23 Dec 2022 14:56]
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| The trans Bill in Scotland on 14:56 - Dec 23 with 1109 views | itfcjoe |
| The trans Bill in Scotland on 14:55 - Dec 23 by monytowbray |
And my point was in regards to the fact she doesn’t automatically have any valid points because of her biological sex, nor is her take that of the majority of women (that’s a objective fact). You built a strawman using identity politics, and now seem to be falling over your own GOTCHA moment.
She is a transphobe, and no surprise you wouldn’t see this as let’s be honest… You’ve got a p1ss poor track record here too. [Post edited 23 Dec 2022 14:56]
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How am I falling over my point? It’s logical from start to finish - that you can’t see that says a lot about your debating skills | |
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| The trans Bill in Scotland on 15:03 - Dec 23 with 1044 views | Mullet |
| The trans Bill in Scotland on 14:55 - Dec 23 by monytowbray |
And my point was in regards to the fact she doesn’t automatically have any valid points because of her biological sex, nor is her take that of the majority of women (that’s a objective fact). You built a strawman using identity politics, and now seem to be falling over your own GOTCHA moment.
She is a transphobe, and no surprise you wouldn’t see this as let’s be honest… You’ve got a p1ss poor track record here too. [Post edited 23 Dec 2022 14:56]
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Aren't you just doing a Clarkson here though?
Regardless of how right or wrong Ryorry may be, or whether or not she's verified her sources, if they chime with her "lived experience" who are you to dismiss it? Beyond the fact it doesn't sit within your preconceived notions?
Just decrying everyone as transphobe who doesn't agree with you isn't adding anything to the debate, nor is it really solving an issue only Ryorry has any tangible stake in. If you can't take that down without the 6th form am dram, are your arguments that watertight yet either? |  |
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| The trans Bill in Scotland on 15:13 - Dec 23 with 1003 views | Vegtablue |
| The trans Bill in Scotland (n/t) on 14:49 - Dec 23 by monytowbray |
This post has been edited by an administrator |
You are being a public menace Mony Towbray and Ryorry is nothing of the sort, well said Joe. Her objections / concerns are plain to see and she has not equated trans people with sexual offenders or child abusers. I sit on your side of the debate and sincerely hope you are not put forward as a spokesman on the issue, not with the debating style you've displayed in this thread so far at least. |  | | |
| The trans Bill in Scotland on 15:15 - Dec 23 with 967 views | PhilTWTD |
I'll lock this thread now. For the most part has been a well-mannered debate but unfortunately has deteriorated. |  | | |
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