| Hiw some school's are handling the teachers strike. 11:41 - Jul 7 with 6779 views | giant_stow |
Heard from a friend last night- their primary school is only closing rhe classes with striking teachers and importantly, not swapping the kids around to non striking teachers. So basically, some kids have missed 8 days from strikes, while other have lost none. How's that fair on the kids? Are other schools doing that? And apart from the effect on the kids, it also seems to be a great way to punish the strikers for their non-attendance as all those days missing might well show up in class results.
Sorry if this is dull, but it just struck me as very wrong where every adult involved is making certain kids suffer. |  |
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| Hiw some school's are handling the teachers strike. on 11:34 - Jul 9 with 1646 views | Mullet |
| Hiw some school's are handling the teachers strike. on 09:22 - Jul 9 by Pinewoodblue |
Agree 100% there is a need for a bigger pot of money but my guess is that no major party, come the next election , will be willing to seek election on a policy of increased taxation.
Would add that there has been, for many many years, far too much money wasted mainly due to incompetence and individuals lining their pockets. |
The Tories have over a decade of death and impoverishment on their hands. Their display foodbanks as sources of pride not the shame and desire for change they should be.
There does need to be increased taxation but of the few not the many. That's the difference. Call the bluff of these people who threaten and blackmail the rest of us. Pay your fair share, pay what you've hoarded and make the punishments punitive for those cheating us. Whether they sit in the Commons, the Lords or round boardrooms.
The fixes are not easy, they are not solely financial, but they will not be available without a platform of funding to begin with. |  |
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| You only work 6 hours a day.... on 11:38 - Jul 9 with 1629 views | Mullet |
| You only work 6 hours a day.... on 10:19 - Jul 9 by Bloots |
...and you get 3 months a year off.
Stop whining.
Innit.
Sweardown.
Etc. |
These are all valuable points. | |
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| Hiw some school's are handling the teachers strike. on 13:54 - Jul 9 with 1562 views | giant_stow |
| Hiw some school's are handling the teachers strike. on 08:59 - Jul 9 by Mullet |
I'm not a member of NEU so haven't been able to strike. There's a few misconceptions here that have arisen so forgive me for the following essay:
1) You cannot cover striking teachers from another union as it is deemed as undermining the legal right to strike. That is why kids cannot and will not be swapped. Also, it means upping the workload of those of us not striking. Pressure from unscrupulous management is a huge issue and often staff are isolated and bullied into doing lots of things they shouldn't in certain environments.
2) The government's hypocrisy and ineptitude has hurt kids more and continues to do so. Schools are already massively underfunded. The move to fully academising education for those who cannot pay fees, means the Tories can try and put the burden on the private sector by offering them the chance to save money - either by ploughing what would be taxed into schools or trying to make money out of the education sector.
3) Some teachers cannot afford to strike any more. There is a hardship fund with every union, however if I was to make one big criticism of the NEU it has been these two days of strike action. It ties into their desire to be seen as doing all the hard work and taking all the plaudits, but to get where they are they've not worked with the other unions well enough in my opinion.
4) Michael Gove. A man who should be exiled or in jail for what he's done. But as far as teachers go, he has made it as hard as possible for teachers to strike. Teachers are spread across the most amount of workplaces in any industry.
Due to academisation, teachers are no longer just spread across Local Authorities. This means it is a massive task to organise, administer and make ballots work long before strike action can happen. That is why the RMT et al can go out very easily. Gove designed the rules specifically to make it as hard as possible for teachers to strike.
We have to use the postal service and this means people have to make sure they update their details (who uses post any more?) with the union and maintain GDPR. There are numerous rules (you can look them up if you don't believe me) and the government can strike down a ballot and strike at any point on the most minor of technicalities.
They can also then drag the union to court and have them fined punitively, meaning the unions have to do everything perfect whilst Keegan can turn up to meetings unprepared flashing her Rolex around and just walk out again not engaging.
I could triple this post length just on this part alone frankly.
5) Teachers don't want to strike. Even the most militant. The media, the government and many parents play on this cynically and unfairly. We're not the NHS or saving lives but as the pandemic showed our value and the respect for our profession is incredibly changeable. We are already expected to work for free in many instances.
6) The real terms pay cut is massive. Everybody is suffering, the government don't want us as a nation to recognise that so once again teachers are another profession where the standards to become a teacher are high, the expectations are even higher but the profession is losing good staff constantly. Experience is simply seen as expense due to the creeping "business" mentality of people who climb to the top and the knock on effects have been building for a decade or more.
7) The damage done by COVID to everyone kids, teachers and parents has been massive but since then new challenges have occurred. Violence, bad behaviour and generally poor socialisation have been massive issues in schools across the country. It's been a huge topic in teaching the media hasn't really touched. There is an expectation that teachers are responsible for this as it happens on school time, but whilst we can debate the merits on site police officers, draconian rules a la Birbalsingh etc it isn't really spoken about enough.
8) Private schools are anything but. If we removed their charitable status and made them run as businesses and paid their share you would already find a big pot of money. However, when we are told there is no more money and any rise won't be funded (if you take the pay rise we'll have to sack and make redundant your colleagues) is essentially blackmail. Whilst this government do nothing but take, steal, lie and cheat us all you can't expect teachers to accept yet more cuts.
There have been years of unions agreeing to forego pay rises as these strikes could and probably should have happened much earlier into austerity. However, many of the above issues are reasons for it not happening.
When professions like teachers, nurses, doctors etc go on strike it's time to take note and support them because the reasons why must be serious and vital. Public service workers are either important or their not. But if us withdrawing labour is so damaging, then it's time to pay us what we're worth isn't it? |
Thanks for your thoughts Mullet - lots to digest and rrigjt from the coal face - appreciated. | |
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| Hiw some school's are handling the teachers strike. on 14:26 - Jul 9 with 1542 views | Chrisd |
| Hiw some school's are handling the teachers strike. on 10:01 - Jul 9 by Churchman |
Thank you for your post.
In point 5 you said teachers don’t want to strike. No, they don’t. They never did. It’s a vocation and a b difficult one. What a lot of teachers do is what Mrs C did - leave the teaching profession earlier than they might have done.
10 years ago, she was getting ever more miserable working in teaching. She wasn’t ambitious, but just wanted to teach children. It was important to her and I’m told she was good at it. In the later years she saw ever more political interference, curriculum, Ofsted, budget cuts, appraisals, time squeezed with ludicrous reporting and worsening conditions.
Mrs C then inherited a little money from her aunt. I said look, why don’t you give teaching up and we can treat your aunts money as income if necessary to allow you to do things you'd like to do. So she did. The loss was the teaching profession’s and the children who missed out on her undoubted skill and experience. A lot of her friends finished early too, all for the same reasons.
The government do not see teaching as a profession or teachers as professional people. They don’t regard the work they do as important because they don’t see people as important.
You are right, the government’s hypocrisy and ineptitude has hurt a generation of children, just as it’s hurt so many people in so many ways. The sooner these creatures are in the dustbin of history the better. |
I did exactly what your wife did not so long ago and walked away from teaching, pay is one part of the problem, but until life/work balance, excessive paperwork, demands and expectations are addressed the profession will continue to struggle to recruit and retain its staff. I found I had to walk away as it was impacting negatively on my mental health and I was unable to switch off. Even if they offered to pay me 100k as a salary wouldn’t entice me back to teaching as you’ll know what comes with it. Thankfully, I’m doing a job I thoroughly enjoy now, but it’s completely away from the education sector. There’s no doubt teaching is a bloody tough job and I certainly respect those that choose to do it, but there’s deep rooted problems in that profession that increased pay won’t solve on its own. [Post edited 9 Jul 2023 16:24]
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| Hiw some school's are handling the teachers strike. on 07:02 - Jul 19 with 1347 views | Herbivore |
| Hiw some school's are handling the teachers strike. on 13:18 - Jul 7 by lowhouseblue |
for 5 to 16 year olds in 2010/11 funding per pupil was £6,700 in 2022-23 prices. in 2023/24 it's £7,220 in 2022-23 prices. so it's more complex than that. |
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| Hiw some school's are handling the teachers strike. on 07:12 - Jul 19 with 1334 views | DJR |
| Hiw some school's are handling the teachers strike. on 07:02 - Jul 19 by Herbivore |
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And just imagine where spending might be if growth had continued at the trajectory before 2008. |  | | |
| Hiw some school's are handling the teachers strike. on 08:06 - Jul 19 with 1299 views | Churchman |
| Hiw some school's are handling the teachers strike. on 14:26 - Jul 9 by Chrisd |
I did exactly what your wife did not so long ago and walked away from teaching, pay is one part of the problem, but until life/work balance, excessive paperwork, demands and expectations are addressed the profession will continue to struggle to recruit and retain its staff. I found I had to walk away as it was impacting negatively on my mental health and I was unable to switch off. Even if they offered to pay me 100k as a salary wouldn’t entice me back to teaching as you’ll know what comes with it. Thankfully, I’m doing a job I thoroughly enjoy now, but it’s completely away from the education sector. There’s no doubt teaching is a bloody tough job and I certainly respect those that choose to do it, but there’s deep rooted problems in that profession that increased pay won’t solve on its own. [Post edited 9 Jul 2023 16:24]
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I think it’s sometimes forgotten, especially by politicians, that it requires an awful lot of training and dedication to become a fully qualified teacher, let alone a good one. TAs perform a valuable role, but the clue is in the name - Teaching Assistant. It’s not the same thing much as the government would like it to be. Having known a lot of teachers, through Mrs C, it’s not a job you switch off from easily either. It is a vocation and a stressful one.
But the government thinks anyone could do the job. We’ve all been to school so what more do you need to learn? Their view, like everything from Brexit to public health is in their ignorance simplistic. After all, Mr Gove says ‘we’ve had enough of experts’. And this is the heart of of it. In their arrogance and world of privileged entitlement they know best.
They know nothing. |  | | |
| Hiw some school's are handling the teachers strike. on 08:15 - Jul 19 with 1291 views | DJR |
| Hiw some school's are handling the teachers strike. on 08:06 - Jul 19 by Churchman |
I think it’s sometimes forgotten, especially by politicians, that it requires an awful lot of training and dedication to become a fully qualified teacher, let alone a good one. TAs perform a valuable role, but the clue is in the name - Teaching Assistant. It’s not the same thing much as the government would like it to be. Having known a lot of teachers, through Mrs C, it’s not a job you switch off from easily either. It is a vocation and a stressful one.
But the government thinks anyone could do the job. We’ve all been to school so what more do you need to learn? Their view, like everything from Brexit to public health is in their ignorance simplistic. After all, Mr Gove says ‘we’ve had enough of experts’. And this is the heart of of it. In their arrogance and world of privileged entitlement they know best.
They know nothing. |
My daughter is starting as a primary teacher in September, and it is clear that the job involves an awful lot of hard work, effort and planning. Indeed, I can't think of any other job where people start off totally in charge at the coal face, as opposed to learning their trade or profession under a mentor of some sort.
I trained as a lawyer, but early work involved taking notes in meetings and producing bundles of paper, not, say, hosting a legal meeting with clients, which is the legal equivalent of teaching in a class room. [Post edited 19 Jul 2023 8:17]
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| Hiw some school's are handling the teachers strike. on 09:02 - Jul 19 with 1267 views | Churchman |
| Hiw some school's are handling the teachers strike. on 08:15 - Jul 19 by DJR |
My daughter is starting as a primary teacher in September, and it is clear that the job involves an awful lot of hard work, effort and planning. Indeed, I can't think of any other job where people start off totally in charge at the coal face, as opposed to learning their trade or profession under a mentor of some sort.
I trained as a lawyer, but early work involved taking notes in meetings and producing bundles of paper, not, say, hosting a legal meeting with clients, which is the legal equivalent of teaching in a class room. [Post edited 19 Jul 2023 8:17]
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In addition, your daughter will also be dealing with parents of course, some of whom will view their children’s abilities errr optimistically. She may even see signs of child abuse, neglect, bullying etc etc etc. Not a job for the faint hearted - teachers get my full admiration for the job they do and the responsibility they hold.
I hope it goes well for her. | | | |
| Hiw some school's are handling the teachers strike. on 10:09 - Jul 19 with 1241 views | DJR |
| Hiw some school's are handling the teachers strike. on 09:02 - Jul 19 by Churchman |
In addition, your daughter will also be dealing with parents of course, some of whom will view their children’s abilities errr optimistically. She may even see signs of child abuse, neglect, bullying etc etc etc. Not a job for the faint hearted - teachers get my full admiration for the job they do and the responsibility they hold.
I hope it goes well for her. |
Many thanks. | | | |
| Hiw some school's are handling the teachers strike. on 11:01 - Jul 19 with 1229 views | soupytwist |
| Hiw some school's are handling the teachers strike. on 08:15 - Jul 19 by DJR |
My daughter is starting as a primary teacher in September, and it is clear that the job involves an awful lot of hard work, effort and planning. Indeed, I can't think of any other job where people start off totally in charge at the coal face, as opposed to learning their trade or profession under a mentor of some sort.
I trained as a lawyer, but early work involved taking notes in meetings and producing bundles of paper, not, say, hosting a legal meeting with clients, which is the legal equivalent of teaching in a class room. [Post edited 19 Jul 2023 8:17]
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As an early career teacher she should have access to a mentorship programme although there will be a lot of time when she's the sole person in charge of a class of children.
Provision of that sort varies from school to school but hopefully she will be in one of the better ones. But even that means an additional responsibility for more experienced staff.
As someone who's going back to being a school governor after a couple of years break I wish her well. |  | | |
| Hiw some school's are handling the teachers strike. on 11:05 - Jul 19 with 1217 views | StokieBlue |
Given the issues at stake I'm not convinced that missing 8 days of school is going to be too much of an issue for the majority of children.
That amount of days could easily be missed through illness in a school year and that's before you look at parents taking their kids out of school a week early to save money on holidays which seems to be on the rise since covid.
Parents are also able to give kids some work to do at home if concerned.
SB |  |
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| Hiw some school's are handling the teachers strike. on 11:07 - Jul 19 with 1212 views | DJR |
| Hiw some school's are handling the teachers strike. on 11:01 - Jul 19 by soupytwist |
As an early career teacher she should have access to a mentorship programme although there will be a lot of time when she's the sole person in charge of a class of children.
Provision of that sort varies from school to school but hopefully she will be in one of the better ones. But even that means an additional responsibility for more experienced staff.
As someone who's going back to being a school governor after a couple of years break I wish her well. |
Yes, she does have that but it was very poor on her placement.
Fortunately, her new school appears very good on this.
But it is still a case that she's on her own in the classroom, as you say, when in all other professions her mentor would be taking the lead, at least in the early stages. | | | |
| Hiw some school's are handling the teachers strike. on 11:11 - Jul 19 with 1201 views | itfcjoe |
| Hiw some school's are handling the teachers strike. on 11:05 - Jul 19 by StokieBlue |
Given the issues at stake I'm not convinced that missing 8 days of school is going to be too much of an issue for the majority of children.
That amount of days could easily be missed through illness in a school year and that's before you look at parents taking their kids out of school a week early to save money on holidays which seems to be on the rise since covid.
Parents are also able to give kids some work to do at home if concerned.
SB |
We haven't lost any days to strikes at my Son's school, but we get regular letters confirming how important attendance is, stating that even with 90% attendance it is still one morning or afternoon a week for a year, and really hammering home the message that attendance levels are basiclaly the most important thing and everything follows from there*
I'm not sure if other schools do this, but could see how it would grate on some when this message is being hammered home consistently and then the kids can't go to school
*and these must be generic because his attendance is nearly perfect |  |
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| Hiw some school's are handling the teachers strike. on 11:32 - Jul 19 with 1168 views | giant_stow |
| Hiw some school's are handling the teachers strike. on 11:11 - Jul 19 by itfcjoe |
We haven't lost any days to strikes at my Son's school, but we get regular letters confirming how important attendance is, stating that even with 90% attendance it is still one morning or afternoon a week for a year, and really hammering home the message that attendance levels are basiclaly the most important thing and everything follows from there*
I'm not sure if other schools do this, but could see how it would grate on some when this message is being hammered home consistently and then the kids can't go to school
*and these must be generic because his attendance is nearly perfect |
The required 'pass' rate for attendance at my boy's school is 97% - pretty tricky to stick to when your boy has medical appointments to attend (for which no allowance is made). We just ignore that bit of the end of year report now.
It does stick in the throat though - fines for parents who do what they canto make a holiday happen, but strikes to be swallowed. Luckily I work at home, but I feel for those who don't.
Incidentally, mrs ullaa is a piano teacher on a zero hours contract (along with many other support staff and teaching assistants), so no holiday pay or sick leave. Everytime there's a strike, she either just loses pay, or some schools expect her to make up the missed lessons in her own time.
Her hourly rate is is £20 something - she teaches 57 kids this term with 'contact time' of 18 hours a week (which probably rivals that of many teachers). Its basically a full time skilled roll with all the other responsibilities on top for no pay (Lesson planning, safeguarding (many kids come to non-teacher adults) and report writing (each end of term report is pai at a rate of £1), but on roughly half the pay of a NQ teacher and just to repeat, no holiday or sick leave.
She supported the strikes as I did (i think they've done now innit?), but it was a very close run thing an we both get a little bit tired of hearing about what is in affect, a school mini-elite complaining about their lot, when there are so many other important workers in the school system who do so much worse.
Some might say they should get unionised and on a salary, but in truth, schools just wouldn't employ them in that scenario (hardly any schools have budget for music lessons now - its usually the parents who pay 100%). They're only there because they're cheap.
This stuff isn't black and white.
Eit: apoligies - my 'd' key is playing up [Post edited 19 Jul 2023 11:40]
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| Hiw some school's are handling the teachers strike. on 11:44 - Jul 19 with 1142 views | Herbivore |
| Hiw some school's are handling the teachers strike. on 11:32 - Jul 19 by giant_stow |
The required 'pass' rate for attendance at my boy's school is 97% - pretty tricky to stick to when your boy has medical appointments to attend (for which no allowance is made). We just ignore that bit of the end of year report now.
It does stick in the throat though - fines for parents who do what they canto make a holiday happen, but strikes to be swallowed. Luckily I work at home, but I feel for those who don't.
Incidentally, mrs ullaa is a piano teacher on a zero hours contract (along with many other support staff and teaching assistants), so no holiday pay or sick leave. Everytime there's a strike, she either just loses pay, or some schools expect her to make up the missed lessons in her own time.
Her hourly rate is is £20 something - she teaches 57 kids this term with 'contact time' of 18 hours a week (which probably rivals that of many teachers). Its basically a full time skilled roll with all the other responsibilities on top for no pay (Lesson planning, safeguarding (many kids come to non-teacher adults) and report writing (each end of term report is pai at a rate of £1), but on roughly half the pay of a NQ teacher and just to repeat, no holiday or sick leave.
She supported the strikes as I did (i think they've done now innit?), but it was a very close run thing an we both get a little bit tired of hearing about what is in affect, a school mini-elite complaining about their lot, when there are so many other important workers in the school system who do so much worse.
Some might say they should get unionised and on a salary, but in truth, schools just wouldn't employ them in that scenario (hardly any schools have budget for music lessons now - its usually the parents who pay 100%). They're only there because they're cheap.
This stuff isn't black and white.
Eit: apoligies - my 'd' key is playing up [Post edited 19 Jul 2023 11:40]
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There's always an undertone in your posts about strikes of thinking a race to the bottom is the lot we should all accept in life. That there are people doing worse isn't a reason for other workers to shut up and not complain, it's a reason to support those others to also fight for a better deal. And comparing parents taking their kids on holiday in term time to teachers taking lawful industrial action is just plain silly. | |
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| Hiw some school's are handling the teachers strike. on 11:54 - Jul 19 with 1126 views | WeWereZombies |
| Hiw some school's are handling the teachers strike. on 11:44 - Jul 19 by Herbivore |
There's always an undertone in your posts about strikes of thinking a race to the bottom is the lot we should all accept in life. That there are people doing worse isn't a reason for other workers to shut up and not complain, it's a reason to support those others to also fight for a better deal. And comparing parents taking their kids on holiday in term time to teachers taking lawful industrial action is just plain silly. |
I think 'plain silly' is too strong a judgement to make of Ulla's dilemma about holiday pay and entitlement for his wife. Reading through his post the first thing I was going to post in reply was that she should get unionised - and then he gave the reason why that wouldn't work (in his opinion), that her employer in effect was individual parents and not an education authority. There is a bigger issue about atomised society at play here and I think whatever undercurrent is perceived is a side issue. |  |
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| Hiw some school's are handling the teachers strike. on 11:56 - Jul 19 with 1112 views | giant_stow |
| Hiw some school's are handling the teachers strike. on 11:44 - Jul 19 by Herbivore |
There's always an undertone in your posts about strikes of thinking a race to the bottom is the lot we should all accept in life. That there are people doing worse isn't a reason for other workers to shut up and not complain, it's a reason to support those others to also fight for a better deal. And comparing parents taking their kids on holiday in term time to teachers taking lawful industrial action is just plain silly. |
Yes, I'm glad you noticed that I find strikes difficult, especially when they hurt the vulnerable.
But what you call 'a race to bottom', is to me accepting that money isn;t limitless and that in sorting out one group, another will often suffer. Or to put it another way, when experienced higher tax-paying, holiday entitled teachers ask for another few grand orand on top, that inevitably means less for support staff, teaching assistants and freelancers.
I'm talking about a wider of view of poor pay and conditions - not one which only accounts for unionised sectors which the left tends to favour. | |
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| Hiw some school's are handling the teachers strike. on 11:59 - Jul 19 with 1085 views | giant_stow |
| Hiw some school's are handling the teachers strike. on 11:54 - Jul 19 by WeWereZombies |
I think 'plain silly' is too strong a judgement to make of Ulla's dilemma about holiday pay and entitlement for his wife. Reading through his post the first thing I was going to post in reply was that she should get unionised - and then he gave the reason why that wouldn't work (in his opinion), that her employer in effect was individual parents and not an education authority. There is a bigger issue about atomised society at play here and I think whatever undercurrent is perceived is a side issue. |
thanks for reading my post as intended and very much agree about the atomised point.
Mrs Ullaa's technical employer is the local council, but with no guaranteed hours, so yes, the individual parents are the ultimate employers and the work available in a given term entirely dependent on their whims. | |
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| Hiw some school's are handling the teachers strike. on 12:09 - Jul 19 with 1061 views | Herbivore |
| Hiw some school's are handling the teachers strike. on 11:56 - Jul 19 by giant_stow |
Yes, I'm glad you noticed that I find strikes difficult, especially when they hurt the vulnerable.
But what you call 'a race to bottom', is to me accepting that money isn;t limitless and that in sorting out one group, another will often suffer. Or to put it another way, when experienced higher tax-paying, holiday entitled teachers ask for another few grand orand on top, that inevitably means less for support staff, teaching assistants and freelancers.
I'm talking about a wider of view of poor pay and conditions - not one which only accounts for unionised sectors which the left tends to favour. |
Why aren't you out there campaigning for more investment in education so that when teachers get a pay rise that they more than deserve that money is funded from increased central funding rather than schools having to cut budgets? Underfunding public services in one of the largest economies in the world is a political choice, one that unions fight against and not just for the benefit of their own members. Maybe direct your anger at those who choose to enrich their super wealthy chums whilst the public sector is slowly destroyed rather than those still trying to make a difference. | |
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| Hiw some school's are handling the teachers strike. on 12:11 - Jul 19 with 1046 views | Herbivore |
| Hiw some school's are handling the teachers strike. on 11:54 - Jul 19 by WeWereZombies |
I think 'plain silly' is too strong a judgement to make of Ulla's dilemma about holiday pay and entitlement for his wife. Reading through his post the first thing I was going to post in reply was that she should get unionised - and then he gave the reason why that wouldn't work (in his opinion), that her employer in effect was individual parents and not an education authority. There is a bigger issue about atomised society at play here and I think whatever undercurrent is perceived is a side issue. |
The 'plain silly' comment was in relation to the comparison of striking workers with parents choosing to take their children out of school to go on holiday, it wasn't about his wife not getting holiday pay. | |
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| Hiw some school's are handling the teachers strike. on 12:13 - Jul 19 with 1044 views | giant_stow |
| Hiw some school's are handling the teachers strike. on 12:09 - Jul 19 by Herbivore |
Why aren't you out there campaigning for more investment in education so that when teachers get a pay rise that they more than deserve that money is funded from increased central funding rather than schools having to cut budgets? Underfunding public services in one of the largest economies in the world is a political choice, one that unions fight against and not just for the benefit of their own members. Maybe direct your anger at those who choose to enrich their super wealthy chums whilst the public sector is slowly destroyed rather than those still trying to make a difference. |
I vote against the things you say I should campaign against, but as another fairly low-paid freelancer, combining child care with uncertain work 6-7 days a week, all my spare time is taken. | |
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