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What I don't understand is why the police don't use less lethal weapons, and don't appear trained to shoot people in a less fatal place.
EDIT: this is an account of the killing of the innocent Brazilian, Jean Charles Menendez, but why did it need 11 shots against an unarmed man? (Surprise, surprise no one was charged).
"Two officers fired a total of eleven shots according to the number of empty cartridge casings found on the floor of the train afterwards. Menezes was shot seven times in the head and once in the shoulder at close range and died at the scene."
[Post edited 25 Sep 2023 8:30]
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The biggest gang in London.... on 08:29 - Sep 25 with 5879 views
The biggest gang in London.... on 08:24 - Sep 25 by DJR
What I don't understand is why the police don't use less lethal weapons, and don't appear trained to shoot people in a less fatal place.
EDIT: this is an account of the killing of the innocent Brazilian, Jean Charles Menendez, but why did it need 11 shots against an unarmed man? (Surprise, surprise no one was charged).
"Two officers fired a total of eleven shots according to the number of empty cartridge casings found on the floor of the train afterwards. Menezes was shot seven times in the head and once in the shoulder at close range and died at the scene."
[Post edited 25 Sep 2023 8:30]
Takes a lot more time and effort to kill someone with a truncheon. Efficiency innit.
The biggest gang in London.... on 08:24 - Sep 25 by DJR
What I don't understand is why the police don't use less lethal weapons, and don't appear trained to shoot people in a less fatal place.
EDIT: this is an account of the killing of the innocent Brazilian, Jean Charles Menendez, but why did it need 11 shots against an unarmed man? (Surprise, surprise no one was charged).
"Two officers fired a total of eleven shots according to the number of empty cartridge casings found on the floor of the train afterwards. Menezes was shot seven times in the head and once in the shoulder at close range and died at the scene."
[Post edited 25 Sep 2023 8:30]
The police were charged, under the health and safety act.
The biggest gang in London.... on 08:32 - Sep 25 by DJR
Very good joke, but I was talking about a less lethal type of firearm.
Even then, as we know from the case of Dalian Atkinson, a taser can be fatal. Difficult to argue for patience, containment and justice being seen to be done as well as actually being done these days. Difficult but necessary for the British way of life to continue.
The biggest gang in London.... on 08:24 - Sep 25 by DJR
What I don't understand is why the police don't use less lethal weapons, and don't appear trained to shoot people in a less fatal place.
EDIT: this is an account of the killing of the innocent Brazilian, Jean Charles Menendez, but why did it need 11 shots against an unarmed man? (Surprise, surprise no one was charged).
"Two officers fired a total of eleven shots according to the number of empty cartridge casings found on the floor of the train afterwards. Menezes was shot seven times in the head and once in the shoulder at close range and died at the scene."
[Post edited 25 Sep 2023 8:30]
In real life, if it comes to the point where police feel they need to shoot someone, then it’s a case of putting them out of action asap, end of. Wounding them in a less fatal place with a less lethal weapon, you’ve been watching too many Hollywood films!
As for Menendez, the officers concerned were told he was a suicide bomber so they used maximum force, rightly so.
Still, if you want to introduce a more humane aspect to the situations armed police have to deal with maybe you should join up and see how it goes!
The biggest gang in London.... on 09:27 - Sep 25 by RegencyBlue
In real life, if it comes to the point where police feel they need to shoot someone, then it’s a case of putting them out of action asap, end of. Wounding them in a less fatal place with a less lethal weapon, you’ve been watching too many Hollywood films!
As for Menendez, the officers concerned were told he was a suicide bomber so they used maximum force, rightly so.
Still, if you want to introduce a more humane aspect to the situations armed police have to deal with maybe you should join up and see how it goes!
Wasn't it a case of the police were told to be on the lookout for a suicide bomber and for some reason they selected almost the least likely person to target ?
The biggest gang in London.... on 09:27 - Sep 25 by RegencyBlue
In real life, if it comes to the point where police feel they need to shoot someone, then it’s a case of putting them out of action asap, end of. Wounding them in a less fatal place with a less lethal weapon, you’ve been watching too many Hollywood films!
As for Menendez, the officers concerned were told he was a suicide bomber so they used maximum force, rightly so.
Still, if you want to introduce a more humane aspect to the situations armed police have to deal with maybe you should join up and see how it goes!
So if a cop "feels the need to shoot someone" that's good enough for you? Strange his colleagues who are supposedly there to uphold the law don't seem to want the legal process to play out. Especially as he is sure to be found not guilty! (It's the British way)
"They break our legs and tell us to be grateful when they offer us crutches."
The biggest gang in London.... on 09:27 - Sep 25 by RegencyBlue
In real life, if it comes to the point where police feel they need to shoot someone, then it’s a case of putting them out of action asap, end of. Wounding them in a less fatal place with a less lethal weapon, you’ve been watching too many Hollywood films!
As for Menendez, the officers concerned were told he was a suicide bomber so they used maximum force, rightly so.
Still, if you want to introduce a more humane aspect to the situations armed police have to deal with maybe you should join up and see how it goes!
I'm not so sure you'd feel the same if an innocent family member of yours had been killed. And if you look at the following, you will see things are much more nuanced than you suggest, and I am not sure anything justifies 7 shots to the head.
But perhaps the real issue I have is that police wrong-doing when it comes to killings has tended to be covered up or swept under the carpet, which is not the sign of a properly working justice system. The killing of Blair Peach is an example.
[Post edited 25 Sep 2023 9:42]
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The biggest gang in London.... on 09:38 - Sep 25 with 5511 views
"In his letter to the home secretary, the Met Police commissioner said that a system where officers are investigated for "safely pursuing suspects" should not have been allowed to develop."
This seems to me to show that all his right-on words about dealing with the myriad issues within the Met are nothing but window dressing. No senior police officer should be advocating for a system where those authorised to utilise lethal force are exempted from scrutiny over the way in which they utilise their enhanced authorisations.
As for the murder charge that has been brought against the officer in question, I would hazard that the CPS have been provided with some pretty meaty evidence with which to prove the charge given the circumstances.
The biggest gang in London.... on 09:27 - Sep 25 by RegencyBlue
In real life, if it comes to the point where police feel they need to shoot someone, then it’s a case of putting them out of action asap, end of. Wounding them in a less fatal place with a less lethal weapon, you’ve been watching too many Hollywood films!
As for Menendez, the officers concerned were told he was a suicide bomber so they used maximum force, rightly so.
Still, if you want to introduce a more humane aspect to the situations armed police have to deal with maybe you should join up and see how it goes!
Police shoot "to stop". The torso is the biggest part of the body but not every shot hits the spot. In the current case we do not know the circumstances causing the officer to shoot, or what target he had in that particular instance. There will be a trial when the facts become known, investigators have submitted evidence to the Crown Prosecution Service who believe there is a case to answer.
It's easy to sit in judgement, particularly if people have never had to make life or death situations. As for "less than lethal" options - they are used when appropriate. Real life is not Harry Potter-life.
As for Menendez. he was (disasterously) thought to be a suicide bomber, when we had just had two days of bombings in London. In view of terrorists often having the button in their hand it is, in such situations, necessary to shut down the central nervous system instantaneously. That can only be done by deliberate shots to the head.
As for "not liking" the current charges it is natural for officers, who volunteer to carry firearms, to ask themselves whether they want to put themselves in a situation where they could be imprisoned for life by doing what they think is the right thing (for the public) when they could earn pretty much the same without carrying that burden.
[Post edited 25 Sep 2023 9:41]
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The biggest gang in London.... on 09:42 - Sep 25 with 5467 views
The biggest gang in London.... on 09:29 - Sep 25 by WeWereZombies
Wasn't it a case of the police were told to be on the lookout for a suicide bomber and for some reason they selected almost the least likely person to target ?
He was misidentified by a soldier who had be seconded to the Met after a failed suicide bombing. The soldier was taking a poiss at the time so didn't take picture and send it to the team. Sadly, once he was misidentified his fate was sealed.
The biggest gang in London.... on 09:38 - Sep 25 by Zx1988
From the BBC:
"In his letter to the home secretary, the Met Police commissioner said that a system where officers are investigated for "safely pursuing suspects" should not have been allowed to develop."
This seems to me to show that all his right-on words about dealing with the myriad issues within the Met are nothing but window dressing. No senior police officer should be advocating for a system where those authorised to utilise lethal force are exempted from scrutiny over the way in which they utilise their enhanced authorisations.
As for the murder charge that has been brought against the officer in question, I would hazard that the CPS have been provided with some pretty meaty evidence with which to prove the charge given the circumstances.
[Post edited 25 Sep 2023 9:41]
There is mega-scrutiny after a police shooting.
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The biggest gang in London.... on 09:56 - Sep 25 with 5375 views
The biggest gang in London.... on 09:42 - Sep 25 by GlasgowBlue
He was misidentified by a soldier who had be seconded to the Met after a failed suicide bombing. The soldier was taking a poiss at the time so didn't take picture and send it to the team. Sadly, once he was misidentified his fate was sealed.
And having made that mistake, the Met then went into full PR mode and told the press a load of things that turned out not to be true.
Which is the fundamental problem with that police force really. It is easy to understand how human beings can make mistakes in pressured situations. But the Metropolitan Police as an institution repeatedly engages in obfuscation, cover up and evasion of accountability, rather than holding itself to a high standard.
The biggest gang in London.... on 09:56 - Sep 25 by jayessess
And having made that mistake, the Met then went into full PR mode and told the press a load of things that turned out not to be true.
Which is the fundamental problem with that police force really. It is easy to understand how human beings can make mistakes in pressured situations. But the Metropolitan Police as an institution repeatedly engages in obfuscation, cover up and evasion of accountability, rather than holding itself to a high standard.
I think one was that he was running away from police when told to stop and drop. I believe (IIRC) this turned out not to be true.
I used to walk past the memorial to John Charles regularly at Stockwell station and often reflected on that incident, ended up doing quite a bit of reading up on in once. Can't remember the ins and outs now but I do remember the response to it was very shady by the police, let alone the incident itself.
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The biggest gang in London.... on 10:13 - Sep 25 with 5258 views
The biggest gang in London.... on 09:27 - Sep 25 by RegencyBlue
In real life, if it comes to the point where police feel they need to shoot someone, then it’s a case of putting them out of action asap, end of. Wounding them in a less fatal place with a less lethal weapon, you’ve been watching too many Hollywood films!
As for Menendez, the officers concerned were told he was a suicide bomber so they used maximum force, rightly so.
Still, if you want to introduce a more humane aspect to the situations armed police have to deal with maybe you should join up and see how it goes!
Threads relating to the police on here in the past have often lead to lazy statements such as ‘biggest gang in London’, ‘ACAB’ and on the other side ‘join up and see how it goes’.
The police do deserve respect - they put their lives on the line to serve society and try to make the country better. However they should be held to account with major decisions transparent. These standards in a lot of cases haven’t been met. If the police don’t want to be held account then they shouldn’t be in the force yet alone carrying a gun.
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The biggest gang in London.... on 10:14 - Sep 25 with 5267 views
I knew it wouldn’t be long before this board got stuck into this story. Though when a police sergeant lost his life saving a member of the public from an active train line not a peep on here.
As for this tragic loss of life, it is still unclear as to the full circumstances as none of us were there, however from what I understand a vehicle linked with a number of violent crimes and intel suggested had legitimate access to firearms was spotted and an armed authority was given (by a senior) when officers located the vehicle and when on foot, ordered it to stop however it did not and drove at the police car (and officers)
I would imagine that those handing in their tickets are doing so based on the account above (obviously I do not know how truly accurate but was eye witness accounts). The officer will likely to feel justified under section 3 criminal law act based on the information and intelligence available and in a split second used force to stop the threat to them and other members of the public. I often ask what would everyday members of the public expect of highly trained and resourced officers in those specific circumstances?
Obviously more will come out, but very little has been written about the use of the vehicle as a lethal weapon and anyone who suggests it’s not a lethal weapon has never witnessed any road traffic collisions
As for less lethal options.. that is something I know is the focus on armed police training training, however a taser, baton gun or baton itself would have no impact against a windscreen.
Like I said there will be more to come out, after what is a tragic loss of life, but you can understand the concerns from armed officers who have split seconds to decide to take action.. or not to take action both of which could lead to catastrophic outcomes and could face years of uncertainty and scrutiny and dragging their families and loved ones through.
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The biggest gang in London.... on 10:19 - Sep 25 with 5212 views
I knew it wouldn’t be long before this board got stuck into this story. Though when a police sergeant lost his life saving a member of the public from an active train line not a peep on here.
As for this tragic loss of life, it is still unclear as to the full circumstances as none of us were there, however from what I understand a vehicle linked with a number of violent crimes and intel suggested had legitimate access to firearms was spotted and an armed authority was given (by a senior) when officers located the vehicle and when on foot, ordered it to stop however it did not and drove at the police car (and officers)
I would imagine that those handing in their tickets are doing so based on the account above (obviously I do not know how truly accurate but was eye witness accounts). The officer will likely to feel justified under section 3 criminal law act based on the information and intelligence available and in a split second used force to stop the threat to them and other members of the public. I often ask what would everyday members of the public expect of highly trained and resourced officers in those specific circumstances?
Obviously more will come out, but very little has been written about the use of the vehicle as a lethal weapon and anyone who suggests it’s not a lethal weapon has never witnessed any road traffic collisions
As for less lethal options.. that is something I know is the focus on armed police training training, however a taser, baton gun or baton itself would have no impact against a windscreen.
Like I said there will be more to come out, after what is a tragic loss of life, but you can understand the concerns from armed officers who have split seconds to decide to take action.. or not to take action both of which could lead to catastrophic outcomes and could face years of uncertainty and scrutiny and dragging their families and loved ones through.
I disagree.
The CPS won't have taken lightly the decision to charge the officer with murder, and will no doubt be happy that they have sufficient evidence that would allow them to prove to a jury, beyond reasonable doubt, that the officer was acting outside of his authority when the decision was made to kill Kaba.
The number of officers, over the years, who have made split-second decisions to discharge their firearms and have not been subject to criminal proceedings would suggest that there must be a pretty high bar for the CPS to take action, and I would suggest that there must have been a significant departure from due process for the CPS to believe that there is a realistic prospect of a successful prosecution.
The biggest gang in London.... on 09:25 - Sep 25 by WeWereZombies
Even then, as we know from the case of Dalian Atkinson, a taser can be fatal. Difficult to argue for patience, containment and justice being seen to be done as well as actually being done these days. Difficult but necessary for the British way of life to continue.
Taser itself has never been the cause of death in the UK. It has been a secondary factor with things such as falls leading to head injuries etc.
In The Atkinson case, Taser did not work and was purely and simply officers resorting to brutal (and clearly lethal) force with batons and stamping etc. had taser have been successful then he would most likely still be with us. Taser was not the cause in that scenario. Officers actions were at fault
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The biggest gang in London.... on 10:20 - Sep 25 with 5200 views
The biggest gang in London.... on 09:56 - Sep 25 by jayessess
And having made that mistake, the Met then went into full PR mode and told the press a load of things that turned out not to be true.
Which is the fundamental problem with that police force really. It is easy to understand how human beings can make mistakes in pressured situations. But the Metropolitan Police as an institution repeatedly engages in obfuscation, cover up and evasion of accountability, rather than holding itself to a high standard.
'But the Metropolitan Police as an institution repeatedly engages in obfuscation, cover up and evasion of accountability, rather than holding itself to a high standard.' - bang on, no argument from me there at all.
Not given the Met an out, merely making the observation though that they are no different from any other institution.
By way of example, when our own Government follows the exact same pattern both collectively and individually, what do we expect from anyone else?
Ade Akinbiyi couldn't hit a cows arse with a banjo...
Our armed police are very well trained, they have very few fatalities a year, I think the figures would shock people in that regard
It's a very difficult job, they have split second decisions to make life threatening choices
To put in perspective, how cautious they are, a friend who was in the army at the time did a firing exercise with armed police officers and 19 out of the 20 scenarios where the army would pull the trigger, the police officers didn't
Should they be above the law, of course not, due process should follow
Who knows the circumstances behind this case, something has riled the officers behind the scenes
Alcohol is the answer but I can't remember the question!
Who would want to be an armed police officer? They face difficult decisions and have to make a judgement call in a split second. Not sure about the Kaba case, don't know a lot about it but I do remember the case of the guy who was shot in a taxi. That was certainly a bit dodgy and had some "inconsistencies" shall we say, in the Met's account of how it went down.
"A+++++", "Great Comms, would recommend", "Thank you, the 12 inch black mamba is just perfect" - Ebay.
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