| Southgates decision? 08:46 - Jul 15 with 4667 views | bobbyramsey |
Why do people keep suggesting that it's Southgates decision as to whether he continues or not? Don't the FA have a say in this, is he untouchable?
[Post edited 15 Jul 8:54]
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| Southgates decision? on 09:00 - Jul 15 with 3125 views | LeoMuff |
Can you sack the the best manager in major tournaments in your history ? After reaching only the third major tournament final in 100 hundred years, when he has acheived 2 of the 3.
On paper he is pretty much unsackable, but I think he will step down - who needs the grief you get with this job, he doesn’t need the money..
He had the demeanour in his post match interviews of a man who had reached the end I thought. |  |
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| Southgates decision? on 09:03 - Jul 15 with 3097 views | Cheltenham_Blue |
| Southgates decision? on 09:00 - Jul 15 by LeoMuff |
Can you sack the the best manager in major tournaments in your history ? After reaching only the third major tournament final in 100 hundred years, when he has acheived 2 of the 3.
On paper he is pretty much unsackable, but I think he will step down - who needs the grief you get with this job, he doesn’t need the money..
He had the demeanour in his post match interviews of a man who had reached the end I thought. |
Yep, thought the same here. Thought, 'he's had enough', but given a bit of space and the benefit of a few days reflection, he might well see it differently.
Its well known the FA want him to stay until the WC, so its an odd one from the OP to be honest. |  |
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| Southgates decision? on 09:11 - Jul 15 with 3056 views | bobbyramsey |
| Southgates decision? on 09:03 - Jul 15 by Cheltenham_Blue |
Yep, thought the same here. Thought, 'he's had enough', but given a bit of space and the benefit of a few days reflection, he might well see it differently.
Its well known the FA want him to stay until the WC, so its an odd one from the OP to be honest. |
Ah, I didn't realise that the FA were keen for him to continue. So, it is his decision, thanks for clearing that up.
I think the FA need their heads examined..... | | | |
| Southgates decision? on 09:12 - Jul 15 with 3052 views | Pinewoodblue |
| Southgates decision? on 09:00 - Jul 15 by LeoMuff |
Can you sack the the best manager in major tournaments in your history ? After reaching only the third major tournament final in 100 hundred years, when he has acheived 2 of the 3.
On paper he is pretty much unsackable, but I think he will step down - who needs the grief you get with this job, he doesn’t need the money..
He had the demeanour in his post match interviews of a man who had reached the end I thought. |
If you judge success by reaching the last four then Southgate is your man.
If on the other hand you want to set out to win it you need someone more flexible, both regards to player selection & style of play.
Think we all know exactly who England need.
Clue. Starters & finishers. |  |
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| Southgates decision? on 09:24 - Jul 15 with 2978 views | DinDjarin |
If success is measured by not winning anything then yes he is a massive success.
Spain were nothing special but he continues to pick obviously injured / not fit players.
Player for player we are better than Spain but they are a better team. |  | | |
| Southgates decision? on 09:29 - Jul 15 with 2948 views | BlueBadger |
| Southgates decision? on 09:24 - Jul 15 by DinDjarin |
If success is measured by not winning anything then yes he is a massive success.
Spain were nothing special but he continues to pick obviously injured / not fit players.
Player for player we are better than Spain but they are a better team. |
Yeah, we should get rid and bring in someone who can make the football better and improve the match day experience. |  |
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| Depends if you have anyone better who wants it on 09:31 - Jul 15 with 2940 views | Dyland |
| Southgates decision? on 09:00 - Jul 15 by LeoMuff |
Can you sack the the best manager in major tournaments in your history ? After reaching only the third major tournament final in 100 hundred years, when he has acheived 2 of the 3.
On paper he is pretty much unsackable, but I think he will step down - who needs the grief you get with this job, he doesn’t need the money..
He had the demeanour in his post match interviews of a man who had reached the end I thought. |
Tournament football is judged by winning the competition not by being runner up. I know you get that, so not sure about all this success Southgate has had. Obviously all good teams lose as well as win, but England aren’t exactly footballing minnows and 2021 and this year especially we should have played better. We totally spawned our way to the final and to me, whilst I like Southgate the man, I wouldn’t call his tenure a success at the end of the day. Big respect for his changing of attitudes and getting more togetherness though. |  |
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| Depends if you have anyone better who wants it on 09:34 - Jul 15 with 2906 views | Cheltenham_Blue |
| Depends if you have anyone better who wants it on 09:31 - Jul 15 by Dyland |
Tournament football is judged by winning the competition not by being runner up. I know you get that, so not sure about all this success Southgate has had. Obviously all good teams lose as well as win, but England aren’t exactly footballing minnows and 2021 and this year especially we should have played better. We totally spawned our way to the final and to me, whilst I like Southgate the man, I wouldn’t call his tenure a success at the end of the day. Big respect for his changing of attitudes and getting more togetherness though. |
Has he done better than any other previous manager with the exception of Ramsey in terms of final tournament finishes? Yes.
But we aren't judging him on that apparently. | |
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| Come off it Chelters on 09:40 - Jul 15 with 2863 views | Dyland |
| Depends if you have anyone better who wants it on 09:34 - Jul 15 by Cheltenham_Blue |
Has he done better than any other previous manager with the exception of Ramsey in terms of final tournament finishes? Yes.
But we aren't judging him on that apparently. |
Apart from roughly three halves of football this tournament we’ve looked slow and boring and completely lacking penetration. That’s what I’m judging.
As I say, I like the guy, but I wouldn’t qualify his tenure a success. | |
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| Depends if you have anyone better who wants it on 09:40 - Jul 15 with 2862 views | Ftnfwest |
| Depends if you have anyone better who wants it on 09:31 - Jul 15 by Dyland |
Tournament football is judged by winning the competition not by being runner up. I know you get that, so not sure about all this success Southgate has had. Obviously all good teams lose as well as win, but England aren’t exactly footballing minnows and 2021 and this year especially we should have played better. We totally spawned our way to the final and to me, whilst I like Southgate the man, I wouldn’t call his tenure a success at the end of the day. Big respect for his changing of attitudes and getting more togetherness though. |
I thought for the first few years he bucked the trend of previous England managers who by and large picked the best 11 players but not the best team. But having bottled it in 2021 hasn't progressed on that front and in fact seems to have reverted to type.
The 'baggage' thats come with these last two final defeats will hold us back if he stays tbh. |  | | |
| Southgates decision? on 09:42 - Jul 15 with 2860 views | RIPbobby |
I think that Mr Southgate is deemed a great human being. He has united those that could not be united. But what skills he has as a humanitarian he does not have in modern football knowledge. He needs to be removed from picking the team and match tactics, but kept on somehow to maintain equilibrium and squad ethics.
One thing that really worried me in his interview after the match is that he said he had not watched back their 2 goals, blah blah blah. Has he missed the concept of the tablets in front of him to analyse the match and to make in play tactical changes. NO. We have seen how well our manager uses analysis and employs people he can trust to offer in game updates on good and bad elements. I'm not sure Mr Southgate does that at all. Those small percentages make a big difference in the grand scheme of things. |  | | |
| Southgates decision? on 09:43 - Jul 15 with 2840 views | Swailsey |
| Southgates decision? on 09:24 - Jul 15 by DinDjarin |
If success is measured by not winning anything then yes he is a massive success.
Spain were nothing special but he continues to pick obviously injured / not fit players.
Player for player we are better than Spain but they are a better team. |
You mean Spain, who are undefeated and were miles better than us and every other team in every way? |  |
| Who said: "Colin Healy made Cesc Fabregas look like Colin Healy"? | We miss you TLA |
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| Southgates decision? on 09:46 - Jul 15 with 2825 views | BloomBlue |
| Southgates decision? on 09:24 - Jul 15 by DinDjarin |
If success is measured by not winning anything then yes he is a massive success.
Spain were nothing special but he continues to pick obviously injured / not fit players.
Player for player we are better than Spain but they are a better team. |
Same as all England managers since Ramsey, none of them had even reached a final.
Given all those managers were failures (they also haven't won anything) who would you select as the next manager? |  | | |
| Come off it Chelters on 09:46 - Jul 15 with 2817 views | Cheltenham_Blue |
| Come off it Chelters on 09:40 - Jul 15 by Dyland |
Apart from roughly three halves of football this tournament we’ve looked slow and boring and completely lacking penetration. That’s what I’m judging.
As I say, I like the guy, but I wouldn’t qualify his tenure a success. |
So you're actually judging his success as England manager on the last four weeks, not his whole tenure? | |
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| Not really on 09:50 - Jul 15 with 2784 views | Dyland |
| Come off it Chelters on 09:46 - Jul 15 by Cheltenham_Blue |
So you're actually judging his success as England manager on the last four weeks, not his whole tenure? |
Ultimately I’m judging it on us not winning anything, but I take your point. For me 2021 was more frustrating than this year to boot, because it felt so close. This year we spawned our way to the final, and except for brief moments were generally outclassed by a better drilled team (with admittedly very dry good players). | |
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| Come off it Chelters on 09:51 - Jul 15 with 2777 views | homer_123 |
| Come off it Chelters on 09:46 - Jul 15 by Cheltenham_Blue |
So you're actually judging his success as England manager on the last four weeks, not his whole tenure? |
The question, though, is simply this.
Given the aim must be to 'win' tournaments, the fact Southgate has got us further than any recent incumbents is certainly good but he win one?
Or are there better options to get that extra 10% out of this group?
If we are being honest - surely you would have expect at least 1 if not 2 by now?
His early tenure was refreshing, solid but positive in terms of style and approach. Recently he seems to have regressed in terms of tactics and style - looking a lot more reserved and defensive. Why? [Post edited 15 Jul 9:52]
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| Southgates decision? on 09:53 - Jul 15 with 2764 views | homer_123 |
| Southgates decision? on 09:46 - Jul 15 by BloomBlue |
Same as all England managers since Ramsey, none of them had even reached a final.
Given all those managers were failures (they also haven't won anything) who would you select as the next manager? |
If there is no one better - then Southgate stays.
The question then, is, could someone get 10% more from this group. | |
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| Come off it Chelters on 10:00 - Jul 15 with 2726 views | Cheltenham_Blue |
| Come off it Chelters on 09:51 - Jul 15 by homer_123 |
The question, though, is simply this.
Given the aim must be to 'win' tournaments, the fact Southgate has got us further than any recent incumbents is certainly good but he win one?
Or are there better options to get that extra 10% out of this group?
If we are being honest - surely you would have expect at least 1 if not 2 by now?
His early tenure was refreshing, solid but positive in terms of style and approach. Recently he seems to have regressed in terms of tactics and style - looking a lot more reserved and defensive. Why? [Post edited 15 Jul 9:52]
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"Or are there better options to get that extra 10% out of this group? "
That there is the critical question though isn't it? Are there? And to follow that, what is wrong with the set up of English football that fails us, Spain after all, have a lower population than us.
On paper, Capello was the best manager we'd ever had - Did nothing. The squad was awash with cliques that meant they could never be a team. The Man City lads famously wouldn't sit with the Man United lads and vice versa. Southgate got rid of much of that and that led to relative success.
But you are right, as a country that plays the amount of football we do, with the talent we have, you would have expected 1 or 2 by now, the question is, why not?
I didn't like Southgate's tactics, I can't understand why with the attacking quality we have, he employed a low block, or why he played so many players out of position or why he took only one LB, but no one can tell me that, comparatively, he hasn't been successful. [Post edited 15 Jul 10:02]
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| Southgates decision? on 10:05 - Jul 15 with 2692 views | mattyboar |
Judging Southgate across his whole reign, I'd say he has done a good job. He has clearly brought a group of players together (remember how fractured the group used to be!), fostered a bond between all their families and renewed everyone's hope in the national team.
However, i think he has reached his tactical ceiling and has gone from overachieving to underachieving. My personal opinion if we should be grateful to him (he has brought us to two finals, a semi and a quarter), but it is also time for a change. |  | | |
| Come off it Chelters on 10:08 - Jul 15 with 2671 views | homer_123 |
| Come off it Chelters on 10:00 - Jul 15 by Cheltenham_Blue |
"Or are there better options to get that extra 10% out of this group? "
That there is the critical question though isn't it? Are there? And to follow that, what is wrong with the set up of English football that fails us, Spain after all, have a lower population than us.
On paper, Capello was the best manager we'd ever had - Did nothing. The squad was awash with cliques that meant they could never be a team. The Man City lads famously wouldn't sit with the Man United lads and vice versa. Southgate got rid of much of that and that led to relative success.
But you are right, as a country that plays the amount of football we do, with the talent we have, you would have expected 1 or 2 by now, the question is, why not?
I didn't like Southgate's tactics, I can't understand why with the attacking quality we have, he employed a low block, or why he played so many players out of position or why he took only one LB, but no one can tell me that, comparatively, he hasn't been successful. [Post edited 15 Jul 10:02]
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I'm not sure now that he can be judged as successful.
I suppose, he can, in comparison, as you say, to other recent managers but the reality is - he's had three very good opportunities to win major tournaments and he hasn't managed to get over the line.
I feel he's regressed, genuinely, whilst he's always had us defensively solid - we played with a lot more tempo, verve and attacking threat under him in the early part of his tenure.
It's a real shame but he should have won a couple by now.
Stick or twist? | |
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| Depends how one measures success on 10:08 - Jul 15 with 2662 views | Dyland |
| Come off it Chelters on 10:00 - Jul 15 by Cheltenham_Blue |
"Or are there better options to get that extra 10% out of this group? "
That there is the critical question though isn't it? Are there? And to follow that, what is wrong with the set up of English football that fails us, Spain after all, have a lower population than us.
On paper, Capello was the best manager we'd ever had - Did nothing. The squad was awash with cliques that meant they could never be a team. The Man City lads famously wouldn't sit with the Man United lads and vice versa. Southgate got rid of much of that and that led to relative success.
But you are right, as a country that plays the amount of football we do, with the talent we have, you would have expected 1 or 2 by now, the question is, why not?
I didn't like Southgate's tactics, I can't understand why with the attacking quality we have, he employed a low block, or why he played so many players out of position or why he took only one LB, but no one can tell me that, comparatively, he hasn't been successful. [Post edited 15 Jul 10:02]
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:)
Apart from that trifling matter (and I’m not even being sarcastic) I agree with all you write here. | |
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| Come off it Chelters on 10:12 - Jul 15 with 2630 views | Cheltenham_Blue |
| Come off it Chelters on 10:08 - Jul 15 by homer_123 |
I'm not sure now that he can be judged as successful.
I suppose, he can, in comparison, as you say, to other recent managers but the reality is - he's had three very good opportunities to win major tournaments and he hasn't managed to get over the line.
I feel he's regressed, genuinely, whilst he's always had us defensively solid - we played with a lot more tempo, verve and attacking threat under him in the early part of his tenure.
It's a real shame but he should have won a couple by now.
Stick or twist? |
Heart says twist, head says we might not get to another final for 20 years.
It all reminds me a little of McCarthy, some liked it because he kept us in the Championship with one hand tied behind his back, some hated the tactics. | |
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| Southgates decision? on 10:13 - Jul 15 with 2641 views | blueasfook |
| Southgates decision? on 10:05 - Jul 15 by mattyboar |
Judging Southgate across his whole reign, I'd say he has done a good job. He has clearly brought a group of players together (remember how fractured the group used to be!), fostered a bond between all their families and renewed everyone's hope in the national team.
However, i think he has reached his tactical ceiling and has gone from overachieving to underachieving. My personal opinion if we should be grateful to him (he has brought us to two finals, a semi and a quarter), but it is also time for a change. |
I dont see how getting us to successive Euro finals can be seen as underachieving. Certainly better than the standard quarter final stage that the likes of Sven and Capello could achieve.
It's disappointing to not quite get over the line but Southgate has certainly raised the bar in terms of England performances and expectations. I think we will miss him when he's gone, and we're back to going out at the QF Stages under some hasbeen former club coach. |  |
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| Southgates decision? on 10:14 - Jul 15 with 2620 views | bsw72 |
I think it is about the FA showing respect for someone who turned what was the sht show of an international team (which it had been for the last 25 years, I would suggest going back to Venables and Hoddle) into a team we expect to win . . .
Look at the shambles of managers we had since then, Keegan, Eriksson, McClaren, Capello, Hodgson.
There was little structure and alignment with the age limited teams which are the feeders for the main team, star players were seemingly allowed to do what they pleased and there was a lack of mature discipline and control. We used to celebrate losing bravely in a quarter-final in a World Cup, nopw the minimum we expect is last 4 and are disappointed not to win.
I agree that Southgate has probably reached the limit of what he can achieve and has some obvious tactical gaps.
I would also suggest that some of our bright and shining stars are only able to do so when they are part of a wider group of talented players. Foden shines at city because of the support he gets from the likes of Doku, Rodri, SIlva etc, same can be said for Bellingham, and Kane (who I suspect has a worse back injury than we were lead to believe).
My big concern is that who is the likely successor to Southgate . . . this is the biggest decision for the FA in at least 25 years. [Post edited 15 Jul 10:14]
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| Don’t disagree with that Fookers old bean on 10:15 - Jul 15 with 2595 views | Dyland |
| Southgates decision? on 10:13 - Jul 15 by blueasfook |
I dont see how getting us to successive Euro finals can be seen as underachieving. Certainly better than the standard quarter final stage that the likes of Sven and Capello could achieve.
It's disappointing to not quite get over the line but Southgate has certainly raised the bar in terms of England performances and expectations. I think we will miss him when he's gone, and we're back to going out at the QF Stages under some hasbeen former club coach. |
Key point as has been discussed in this thread is, rather than how one measures success, who is out there who would be better and importantly who wants the gig. | |
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