| Chris Kaba verdict 19:12 - Oct 21 with 28050 views | Zx1988 |
https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/c17lk592ygdo
Not sure what I make of this.
If, as the article perhaps suggests, the verdict hinged upon the testimony of Blake's fellow firearms officers, I feel a distinct sense of 'they would say that, wouldn't they'.
Is there any other scenario where, essentially, the corroborating testimony of one's chums would be enough to secure a not guilty verdict? |  |
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| Chris Kaba verdict on 19:23 - Oct 21 with 9990 views | ArnoldMoorhen |
A car is a potentially lethal weapon, and Kaba made a decision to use it as a weapon in the seconds before he was shot.
At the very least he was acting very recklessly in ramming the cars, not caring who might get injured, at the worst he was deliberately trying to violently remove himself from the situation by forcing his car through any surrounding police officers or vehicles.
I can't see how any jury could find an armed officer guilty of murder in this scenario.
This is totally different from, for example, the illegal killing of Dalian Atkinson by serving Police officers, in my opinion. | | | |
| Chris Kaba verdict on 19:24 - Oct 21 with 9986 views | King_of_Portman_Rd |
I’ve not followed the trial, but I know there were ‘independent eye witnesses’ mentioned at time of the incident.. plus dash cam footage and bodyworn video.
But like I said I’ve not followed the trial so if these have been ‘discounted’ or not included then I don’t know. I’ll give it a read later on |  | | |
| Chris Kaba verdict on 19:26 - Oct 21 with 9978 views | Swansea_Blue |
Must admit my first thought was that the officer is lucky. Having said that, Kaba was stupid to try and drive off after being hemmed in and stopped.
Agreed on the testimony angle. Even if it’s all above board and truthful, it opens the door to doubts. |  |
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| Chris Kaba verdict on 19:27 - Oct 21 with 9955 views | Zx1988 |
| Chris Kaba verdict on 19:24 - Oct 21 by King_of_Portman_Rd |
I’ve not followed the trial, but I know there were ‘independent eye witnesses’ mentioned at time of the incident.. plus dash cam footage and bodyworn video.
But like I said I’ve not followed the trial so if these have been ‘discounted’ or not included then I don’t know. I’ll give it a read later on |
If they were called at witnesses at the trial, I'd happily revise my thoughts.
In which case, hopefully the article is poorly written, rather than suggesting that the testimony of a bunch of firearms officers saying 'yeah, I'd have shot him if Blake hadn't' was enough to get their mate off. | |
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| Chris Kaba verdict on 19:30 - Oct 21 with 9925 views | Zx1988 |
| Chris Kaba verdict on 19:26 - Oct 21 by Swansea_Blue |
Must admit my first thought was that the officer is lucky. Having said that, Kaba was stupid to try and drive off after being hemmed in and stopped.
Agreed on the testimony angle. Even if it’s all above board and truthful, it opens the door to doubts. |
It reminds me of a document I saw when, during my time as a student, I worked in the local constabulary's control room.
It was a matrix for the assessment of intelligence, which ranked the reliability of the source from A to D, and the reliability of the information from 1-4.
Beneath the matrix was the caveat that intelligence from a serving police officer was always to be graded A1, without question.
Always seemed dodgy as fook to me, and a recipe for absolute disaster. | |
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| Chris Kaba verdict on 19:38 - Oct 21 with 9876 views | Swansea_Blue |
| Chris Kaba verdict on 19:30 - Oct 21 by Zx1988 |
It reminds me of a document I saw when, during my time as a student, I worked in the local constabulary's control room.
It was a matrix for the assessment of intelligence, which ranked the reliability of the source from A to D, and the reliability of the information from 1-4.
Beneath the matrix was the caveat that intelligence from a serving police officer was always to be graded A1, without question.
Always seemed dodgy as fook to me, and a recipe for absolute disaster. |
That’s probably ok as long as everyone is acting as they should. I’ve watched too much Line of Duty to know there are plenty of wrong’uns in the force! Not that I’d want to be in the position of those armed officers. It can’t be an easy job. | |
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| Chris Kaba verdict on 19:50 - Oct 21 with 9832 views | DJR |
The police officer's defence appeared to rely on the fact that Kaba could use the car as a weapon but the video released suggests to me that the car he was driving was hemmed in, so could not be used as a weapon.
As it is, the Crown Prosecution Service obviously thought there was sufficient evidence for a murder charge.
However, it seems to me unlikely that a jury would ever find a police officer guilty of murder, but this means there is an injustice when it comes to the family of a person killed who was unarmed.
In the light of this, perhaps what is needed for such situations is the creation of a lesser charge, with a lesser penalty, of unlawful killing by a police officer. That would at least offer some sort of justice to the victim's family, as well as some (lesser) penalty for the police officer. [Post edited 21 Oct 2024 20:09]
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| Chris Kaba verdict on 19:55 - Oct 21 with 9796 views | redrickstuhaart |
| Chris Kaba verdict on 19:50 - Oct 21 by DJR |
The police officer's defence appeared to rely on the fact that Kaba could use the car as a weapon but the video released suggests to me that the car he was driving was hemmed in, so could not be used as a weapon.
As it is, the Crown Prosecution Service obviously thought there was sufficient evidence for a murder charge.
However, it seems to me unlikely that a jury would ever find a police officer guilty of murder, but this means there is an injustice when it comes to the family of a person killed who was unarmed.
In the light of this, perhaps what is needed for such situations is the creation of a lesser charge, with a lesser penalty, of unlawful killing by a police officer. That would at least offer some sort of justice to the victim's family, as well as some (lesser) penalty for the police officer. [Post edited 21 Oct 2024 20:09]
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The vehicle was also connected to a shooting...
They key point here though, is that this is not some decision of a police influenced body, but a jury, given opportunity to see and hear all the evidence. They didnt find it a tough one by the sounds of it. Only took 3 hours to decide unanimously. | | | |
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| Chris Kaba verdict on 20:10 - Oct 21 with 9727 views | The_Flashing_Smile |
My first thoughts, having seen this on the news, is Kaba rammed the police a couple of times... and the car he was in was linked to an earlier shooting. The family saying justice hasn't been done don't mention these two things.
Call me old fashioned but I've never been in a car linked to a shooting, and I've never rammed the police.
The officer has been cleared, very quickly, by a jury. That, for me, should be enough. We risk being in a situation where no-one wants to be a firearms officer... or people already in that job will hesitate a bit too long and we end up with a disaster on ours hands. |  |
| Trust the process. Trust Phil. |
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| Chris Kaba verdict on 20:12 - Oct 21 with 9706 views | Chris_ITFC |
| Chris Kaba verdict on 20:10 - Oct 21 by The_Flashing_Smile |
My first thoughts, having seen this on the news, is Kaba rammed the police a couple of times... and the car he was in was linked to an earlier shooting. The family saying justice hasn't been done don't mention these two things.
Call me old fashioned but I've never been in a car linked to a shooting, and I've never rammed the police.
The officer has been cleared, very quickly, by a jury. That, for me, should be enough. We risk being in a situation where no-one wants to be a firearms officer... or people already in that job will hesitate a bit too long and we end up with a disaster on ours hands. |
They never do. Funny that. |  |
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| Chris Kaba verdict on 20:16 - Oct 21 with 9705 views | DJR |
| Chris Kaba verdict on 19:55 - Oct 21 by redrickstuhaart |
The vehicle was also connected to a shooting...
They key point here though, is that this is not some decision of a police influenced body, but a jury, given opportunity to see and hear all the evidence. They didnt find it a tough one by the sounds of it. Only took 3 hours to decide unanimously. |
As a lawyer, I am always reluctant to challenge the decision of a jury that has heard the evidence, but given that these days there appears to be an increasing tendency to release video evidence, I do not think it is wrong for me to take a view on that evidence.
However, my main point is that we currently have two extremes in such a case, one that the officer is guilty of murder (with the long sentence that that entails), the other that somebody unarmed is killed without anyone being held to account. The long sentence in my view makes it unlikely that a jury would ever find a police officer guilty of murder.
This was why I was suggesting a lesser charge for such cases which might ensure, in appropriate cases, some sort of punishment and some sort of justice for the victim's family.
And it must not be forgotten that the police and criminal justice system is biased against black people on many counts. [Post edited 21 Oct 2024 20:47]
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| Chris Kaba verdict on 20:22 - Oct 21 with 9658 views | The_Flashing_Smile |
| Chris Kaba verdict on 20:16 - Oct 21 by DJR |
As a lawyer, I am always reluctant to challenge the decision of a jury that has heard the evidence, but given that these days there appears to be an increasing tendency to release video evidence, I do not think it is wrong for me to take a view on that evidence.
However, my main point is that we currently have two extremes in such a case, one that the officer is guilty of murder (with the long sentence that that entails), the other that somebody unarmed is killed without anyone being held to account. The long sentence in my view makes it unlikely that a jury would ever find a police officer guilty of murder.
This was why I was suggesting a lesser charge for such cases which might ensure, in appropriate cases, some sort of punishment and some sort of justice for the victim's family.
And it must not be forgotten that the police and criminal justice system is biased against black people on many counts. [Post edited 21 Oct 2024 20:47]
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I've heard it mentioned he was unarmed several times. However, the police officer didn't know this at the time. Easy to be wise after the event... but if someone's in a car linked to a previous shooting and is ramming police, I certainly wouldn't be assuming he's NOT armed.
I take your point about the police and criminal justice system being biased against black people but we can't use this as the get-out clause on every occasion. You have to look at the facts as they were known at the time. | |
| Trust the process. Trust Phil. |
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| Chris Kaba verdict on 20:30 - Oct 21 with 9625 views | King_of_Portman_Rd |
| Chris Kaba verdict on 20:22 - Oct 21 by The_Flashing_Smile |
I've heard it mentioned he was unarmed several times. However, the police officer didn't know this at the time. Easy to be wise after the event... but if someone's in a car linked to a previous shooting and is ramming police, I certainly wouldn't be assuming he's NOT armed.
I take your point about the police and criminal justice system being biased against black people but we can't use this as the get-out clause on every occasion. You have to look at the facts as they were known at the time. |
I would also add a minor counter to the ‘unarmed’ angle.
Having unfortunately seen a lot of people being seriously injured or fatally injured by vehicles in my line of work, I would add that a vehicle, in this case a high powered and heavy vehicle, could very much be seen as a potentially lethal weapon when driven in a manner that could cause such injury.
That said, it is a tragic situation and I’ve seen some of the footage (officer body worn footage) has been released, which is obviously not going to be pleasant for friends & family of the deceased | | | |
| Chris Kaba verdict on 20:33 - Oct 21 with 9588 views | redrickstuhaart |
| Chris Kaba verdict on 20:30 - Oct 21 by King_of_Portman_Rd |
I would also add a minor counter to the ‘unarmed’ angle.
Having unfortunately seen a lot of people being seriously injured or fatally injured by vehicles in my line of work, I would add that a vehicle, in this case a high powered and heavy vehicle, could very much be seen as a potentially lethal weapon when driven in a manner that could cause such injury.
That said, it is a tragic situation and I’ve seen some of the footage (officer body worn footage) has been released, which is obviously not going to be pleasant for friends & family of the deceased |
Looking at the footage, he had just reversed with two officers alongside him, either to escape, or to plough forward again.
Crucially, he was literally told "armed police" and to stop, clearly heard and reacted by driving off. | | | |
| Chris Kaba verdict on 21:12 - Oct 21 with 9423 views | DJR |
To Bobby J he's a hero. | | | |
| Chris Kaba verdict on 21:34 - Oct 21 with 9358 views | baxterbasics |
Should never have gone to trial in the first place. |  |
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| Chris Kaba verdict on 09:27 - Oct 22 with 8910 views | RegencyBlue |
Bottom line of the tale is quite straightforward. If you are told to stop by armed police, who have clearly issued the appropriate warnings, do so and don’t try to use your car as a weapon!
The fact the jury took less than three hours to deliver a not guilty verdict implies the evidence was pretty overwhelming. Certainly the videos that have been released back up what the police have said. |  | | |
| Chris Kaba verdict on 09:43 - Oct 22 with 8817 views | DJR |
Going back to the OP, I attended a case at Ipswich Magistrates Court in 1980 where an Ipswich fan was accused of attacking an opposition fan.
The testimony of each of the police officers was the same but the defence lawyer managed under cross-examination to establish that the police officers had colluded because one of the officers couldn't have seen all that happened, and the case collapsed. [Post edited 22 Oct 2024 10:23]
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| Chris Kaba verdict on 10:02 - Oct 22 with 8691 views | Swansea_Blue |
| Chris Kaba verdict on 20:33 - Oct 21 by redrickstuhaart |
Looking at the footage, he had just reversed with two officers alongside him, either to escape, or to plough forward again.
Crucially, he was literally told "armed police" and to stop, clearly heard and reacted by driving off. |
From the footage shown, it's not obvious that he was trying to run anyone down as claimed by the prosecution. But yes that's the crux of it, he didn't stop and made efforts to try and escape. Even if not deliberately targeting anyone with the car, he'd have caused serious damage/death if he'd connected. I'd like to think in that position I'd be very compliant! | |
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| Chris Kaba verdict on 10:11 - Oct 22 with 8658 views | gtsb1966 |
The thing that gets me are the statements from the family and protest groups. Not once have I read a statement where they state that Mr Kaba was in the wrong and if he hadn't done what he did none of this would've happened. This one sums it up for me.
Mr Kaba's family said they were devastated by the verdict, and that the acquittal of Mr Blake "wasn't just a failure for our family, but for all those affected by police violence".
What about Mr Kaba's violence. [Post edited 22 Oct 2024 10:12]
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| Chris Kaba verdict on 10:14 - Oct 22 with 8613 views | DJR |
| Chris Kaba verdict on 10:11 - Oct 22 by gtsb1966 |
The thing that gets me are the statements from the family and protest groups. Not once have I read a statement where they state that Mr Kaba was in the wrong and if he hadn't done what he did none of this would've happened. This one sums it up for me.
Mr Kaba's family said they were devastated by the verdict, and that the acquittal of Mr Blake "wasn't just a failure for our family, but for all those affected by police violence".
What about Mr Kaba's violence. [Post edited 22 Oct 2024 10:12]
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I would feel the same if an unarmed relative of mine was killed.
As regards his violence, the car appeared to me to be hemmed in, and his speed never exceeded 12 mph. [Post edited 22 Oct 2024 10:20]
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| Chris Kaba verdict on 10:34 - Oct 22 with 8528 views | baxterbasics |
| Chris Kaba verdict on 10:11 - Oct 22 by gtsb1966 |
The thing that gets me are the statements from the family and protest groups. Not once have I read a statement where they state that Mr Kaba was in the wrong and if he hadn't done what he did none of this would've happened. This one sums it up for me.
Mr Kaba's family said they were devastated by the verdict, and that the acquittal of Mr Blake "wasn't just a failure for our family, but for all those affected by police violence".
What about Mr Kaba's violence. [Post edited 22 Oct 2024 10:12]
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This is what ticks me off about these cases.
I understand the immediate family feeling this way of course.
But then there's the whole wider community jumping on the 'justice for...' bandwagon, not having all the facts, and often being wilfully blind to various circumstances and context. We end up seeing very unsavoury characters almost deified as part of their misguided fight. Then when due process delivers a verdict they don't like, big potential for unrest. | |
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| Chris Kaba verdict on 10:38 - Oct 22 with 8515 views | leitrimblue |
| Chris Kaba verdict on 10:14 - Oct 22 by DJR |
I would feel the same if an unarmed relative of mine was killed.
As regards his violence, the car appeared to me to be hemmed in, and his speed never exceeded 12 mph. [Post edited 22 Oct 2024 10:20]
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Come on anyone that buys a used car that's previously been linked to a crime then panics when surrounded by screaming armed police deserves to be shoot an killed clearly.. |  | | |
| Chris Kaba verdict on 10:38 - Oct 22 with 8507 views | The_Flashing_Smile |
| Chris Kaba verdict on 10:14 - Oct 22 by DJR |
I would feel the same if an unarmed relative of mine was killed.
As regards his violence, the car appeared to me to be hemmed in, and his speed never exceeded 12 mph. [Post edited 22 Oct 2024 10:20]
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Again you mention the "unarmed" bit but fail to mention he was in a car linked to a previous shooting, refused to stop when ordered to by armed police, and rammed them.
It's almost irrelevant that he was unarmed. Most right-thinking people would think there's a very good chance he's armed. You don't wait for him to start killing people to be sure.
"Unarmed" works as a defence when someone not known to the police is just walking down the street not carrying anything. In a car (where a gun could easily be concealed)... and a car that was linked to a previous shooting, is refusing to stop and is ramming the police... sorry, no, "unarmed" is not a defence. And I really don't think the speed he was ramming the police at is all that relevant either. | |
| Trust the process. Trust Phil. |
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| Chris Kaba verdict on 10:41 - Oct 22 with 8491 views | The_Flashing_Smile |
| Chris Kaba verdict on 10:38 - Oct 22 by leitrimblue |
Come on anyone that buys a used car that's previously been linked to a crime then panics when surrounded by screaming armed police deserves to be shoot an killed clearly.. |
No-one said he deserves to be shot and killed, but you can see why the police would react the way they did in such a situation and with the facts known. | |
| Trust the process. Trust Phil. |
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