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I am not at ease with this to be honest. Seems to be in vogue to blame the democrats for not doing enough to appeal to blue collar workers and that we can't blame those who voted for Trump. But what about personal responsibility and awareness? It's widely in the public domain that Trump has so many flaws to put it lightly, not least launching a violent attack on the US seat of government and doing his utmost to destabilise democracy. His endless lies don't take much seeing through. And his plain vindictiveness and bullying. There seems to be extreme views that those voting for him are really stupid and ignorant on one hand or that they are acting entirely logical on the other? Yes some maybe many are ignorant. But so so many more aren't, I hope, and they have knowingly voted for him to (a) be the republican candidate and (b) to be president. They are culpable for what is to come imo.
Just heard some of his new appointments - those Palestine supporting voters who switched to Trump in anger at Biden are in for a nasty shock - though it shouldn't be one.
[Post edited 13 Nov 2024 13:35]
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The trend to excuse Trump voters on 15:27 - Nov 13 with 1168 views
Harris' problem started when she went on 'The View' and was asked, "What would you change about the Biden Presidency?" to which she replied, "Nothing comes to mind".
At that point, Trump took the White House, in that one short answer, she reduced the election to a single issue, 'Stay as we are, or risk uncertainty' most normal people would choose to stay as they are rather than have a convicted felon, and pussy grabber in the White House.
But 'most' people are dealing with reduced income, rising prices, and the threat, (real or imagined), felt from undocumented migrants. In that situation at least uncertainty offers some hope that something might actually change.
Harris unfortunately went on the attack with Trump, calling him a threat, and that he was a risk to national security, and she failed to learn the lesson of Hilary Clinton and her 'basket of deplorables'.
The trend to excuse Trump voters on 15:19 - Nov 13 by J2BLUE
I deliberately used the word perceive which you chose to ignore.
I'm not ignoring his criminal actions at all.
What do you think about the general point?
I think my point is that this time around it nearly all seems to be about the democrats/strategists etc getting it wrong and the voters haven't been belittled etc.
And again this is a deeply flawed wanna be totalitarian ruler they have elected . It's so obvious he doesn't give a sh1t about anyone or anything except for his own vanity. And democracy which is at the heart of the USA is in danger. Giving Musk a job ffs I could go on and on and on.
History shows what will happen and it isn't good.
So in more normal circumstances i would appreciate your point but these are not those
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The trend to excuse Trump voters on 15:29 - Nov 13 with 1159 views
The trend to excuse Trump voters on 14:18 - Nov 13 by iamatractorboy
I understand how many of them are disillusioned with government and sick of what they see as corruption. But they voted for TRUMP to end corruption and cronyism. TRUMP. To...end...corruption...
It just does not compute.
If Trump and Musk do what they say they are going to do and slash federal spending in Washington, they can't help but also slash federal corruption. For all that talk, Trump still signed all those ridiculous bills that ballooned the debt, so I don't agree that he drained the swamp the first time.
The most important thing is not whether we agree with what the politician said they will do, it is whether they followed through on what they promised. I would respect a politician who followed through on a promise that I was against, even if I wish that they wouldn't.
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The trend to excuse Trump voters on 15:35 - Nov 13 with 1103 views
I have spouted this on TWTD for many years, but we're well and truly in the age of "Reality TV" voting. That is, we are happy to vote for who we see as the least bad option. The shock of Trumpism is yesterdays news to many who voted, and neither Trump or Harris really delivered any kind of manifesto at all - so there was nothing proactive to really get behind.
Harris was the VP to a president who managed to end his tenure with a terrible place in the opinion polls, and a lot of people simply could not separate Harris from Biden without any real policies being presented.
Does this mean it was better to vote for Trump? I don't think so - but it is a chance to coin the old phrase "Don't hate the player, Hate the game" - Politics is broken, personality is more powerful than policy and it sucks.
The trend to excuse Trump voters on 15:25 - Nov 13 by itfcjoe
I think it's a US term but just an easy way to say I don't agree with ethnicity and diversity targets in work places
You're much more up on these issues than me because you also use terms in relation to the trans issue that I don't understand either.
Just because these terms are used (perhaps loudly) by some on the left, and particularly highlighted by the right wing media, does not mean that many on the left are obsessed by such issues.
For my own part, I believe in equality which means I take a sympathetic view in relation to groups I think are disadvantaged. And when it comes to diversity, surely it is a good thing, say, that Oxbridge has moved from the preserve of the public schools, and now takes equally bright pupils from a wide variety of backgrounds?
[Post edited 13 Nov 2024 15:46]
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The trend to excuse Trump voters on 15:44 - Nov 13 with 1064 views
The trend to excuse Trump voters on 15:08 - Nov 13 by Europablue
It is rather bigoted to suggest that women, black people and Latino people are not allowed to vote outside a perceived natural demographic tendency. In fact, I imagine being taken for granted is what turned many of those voters off voting for Harris. Why are only white men allowed to freely vote?
"It is rather bigoted to suggest that women, black people and Latino people are not allowed to vote outside a perceived natural demographic tendency."
You'd be right if I said that. To remind you, I said I don't understand such voters voting for Trump, not they're not allowed to vote for Trump - hopefully, you can see the difference.
I'm open to understanding why and have seen a range of reasons suggested. To take women voters, I've seen a depressing suggestion made by Bonnie Greer, that some American women simply don't trust a women to run things, despite it now being utterly normal in other countries. Why is that though? This is what I don't get or why they're ok with a women-hater like Trump. Tricky to get my head around.
Has anyone ever looked at their own postings for last day or so? Oh my... so sorry. Was Ullaa
The trend to excuse Trump voters on 15:44 - Nov 13 by DJR
You're much more up on these issues than me because you also use terms in relation to the trans issue that I don't understand either.
Just because these terms are used (perhaps loudly) by some on the left, and particularly highlighted by the right wing media, does not mean that many on the left are obsessed by such issues.
For my own part, I believe in equality which means I take a sympathetic view in relation to groups I think are disadvantaged. And when it comes to diversity, surely it is a good thing, say, that Oxbridge has moved from the preserve of the public schools, and now takes equally bright pupils from a wide variety of backgrounds?
[Post edited 13 Nov 2024 15:46]
I don't disagree with the overall goal of it, just think that the methods at the moment punish young white men which will see them become disaffected as they are now at the bottom of the pile for jobs.
I'd like to see some real thought given to 'class' amongst any targets if they were to exist too but that just isn't the case. As Oxbridge has moved on away from the preserve of the public schools, it now means that when those who have got there from state schools are now seen as the Oxbridge elite when it comes to applying for jobs!
All this stuff is very, very difficult - but there seems that there is either a lack of acceptance that there has to be losers, or people just not caring and citing white privilege which is a term that needs an urgent rebrand!
Companies may have 80% men, 90% white people, 95% straight people, 95% non-disabled people etc......but the only way that can be equalised is from the bottom up which punishes people
Anyway a bit of a ramble, but this stuff drives people rightwards
The trend to excuse Trump voters on 14:43 - Nov 13 by nrb1985
Think you're over thinking this.
The election was a referendum on the economy and inflation.
Wrongly, many equate Trump with better economic times. And a lot of people don't pay attention to politics until it's time to vote, so possibly aren't even aware he said these things.
Or, they do, and don't care because their purchasing power under Trump was +25% vs. now.
[Post edited 13 Nov 2024 14:45]
I'd argue that there is a cultural shift too. The left has really captured cultural output, but shows like Yellowstone show that the middle of the country both deserves to be seen and also provides a lucrative market. It's really interesting to see the trend in videogames. This year the market is showing zero tolerance for woke trash and several high-profile games have bombed. I imagine it is normal people saying that they have just had enough and won't support it any longer. There has been a need for a correction in the market to allow gamers to just play games that they enjoy rather than being propagandized in their hobby. This election was decided by voters who vote for Biden last time.
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The trend to excuse Trump voters on 16:15 - Nov 13 with 941 views
The trend to excuse Trump voters on 14:57 - Nov 13 by bsw72
Trump Supporters and Republican Voters are not one and the same, and the political culture in the US is also unique - to an outsider looking in from the UK it seems mad that people will vote for Trump, but when you are immersed in the swamp that is US politics it becomes a very grey area.
You need to consider the how the foundational principles, political institutions and the 2 party systems differ to other "western" democracies, not to mention how government is perceived and the role the media plays.
The US political culture is hugely influenced by ideals of individualism, liberty, and democracy. The Constitution emphasizes the protection of individual rights and freedoms, and there is a strong belief in the importance of personal responsibility and self-reliance. On top of this you have the U.S. federal system with a clear separation of powers among the executive, legislative, and judicial branches which fosters a culture of checks and balances, leading to a more adversarial political environment., especially with just a 2 party system.
FInally compound all the above with the media landscape which is highly polarized, with partisan outlets influencing public opinion and political discourse and you have the perfect storm.
The majority of republican voters will only watch the likes of Fox news, which just magnifies the positives of Trump with little or no control over content or fact checking. Those who have voted Republican have done so in the belief that he will benefit them, and also plays into the more Republican cultural view of general skepticism toward government intervention in personal lives with a strong belief in limited government and free-market principles.
Basically Trump nailed it this time round vs 2020, playing 100% to everything that Republicans and right leaning swing voters wanted - combined with the Democrats always going to be in trouble as a current incumbent who had dropped in popularity, who had to replace their candidate at (reasonably) short notice.
You are talking a lot of sense there, but you fail to mention that our media is highly biased against Trump, and he comes off as too American for our tastes anyway as he is very crass and not cultured in the way he doesn't understand our obtuse customs, even though he is very positive about our country and people.
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The trend to excuse Trump voters on 16:17 - Nov 13 with 939 views
The trend to excuse Trump voters on 16:11 - Nov 13 by Europablue
I'd argue that there is a cultural shift too. The left has really captured cultural output, but shows like Yellowstone show that the middle of the country both deserves to be seen and also provides a lucrative market. It's really interesting to see the trend in videogames. This year the market is showing zero tolerance for woke trash and several high-profile games have bombed. I imagine it is normal people saying that they have just had enough and won't support it any longer. There has been a need for a correction in the market to allow gamers to just play games that they enjoy rather than being propagandized in their hobby. This election was decided by voters who vote for Biden last time.
Please define 'woke trash'.
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The trend to excuse Trump voters on 16:32 - Nov 13 with 905 views
The trend to excuse Trump voters on 15:11 - Nov 13 by reusersfreekicks
As a long time far right apologist for Farage and Trump I'm afraid your views are no surprise here. There are many pending cases against him. I wonder how far you would defend him - guess we will find out
Anything right of centre looks like fascism to a far-left nut like yourself. I'm not going to defend anyone. Just imagine if you are mistaken and in fact the mostly reasonable people of America are responding to a choice between Trump and an option that they see as worse. Harris backed defunding the police, which is a nutty proposition. California just made it illegal to steal again after testing out not prosecuting people for stealing up to about 500 dollars. All the points that Joe made are centrist views. The prosecutions of Trump are clearly politically motivated by the fact that they go against the precedent of not prosecuting political enemies. Nixon wasn't even impeached. All the dates fit so well with the election schedule and the charges are a really stretch. The democrats publicly stated that they were coming after Trump and demonstrated it with the impeachments. That was the label they targeted for the 2020 election and this time round it was convicted felon. Trump could be guilty of most of these things that he has been accused of (leading an insurrection at the Capitol does not hold up to the test of even going to trial), but we can certainly say that the prosecution/persecution is political. Because of that we can't trust the trials and it's not a good path to follow to use this lawfare as a way to take out your enemies. That really fuels the divide. The reaction to Trump is the problem. If everyone behaves like an adult, then Trump just looks like a buffoon, instead he looks more reasonable to a big part of the electorate than the other option. Elections are almost always about the least worst option.
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The trend to excuse Trump voters on 16:37 - Nov 13 with 884 views
The trend to excuse Trump voters on 15:28 - Nov 13 by reusersfreekicks
I think my point is that this time around it nearly all seems to be about the democrats/strategists etc getting it wrong and the voters haven't been belittled etc.
And again this is a deeply flawed wanna be totalitarian ruler they have elected . It's so obvious he doesn't give a sh1t about anyone or anything except for his own vanity. And democracy which is at the heart of the USA is in danger. Giving Musk a job ffs I could go on and on and on.
History shows what will happen and it isn't good.
So in more normal circumstances i would appreciate your point but these are not those
Let's come back to this in 4 years and when Trump has dissolved democracy in America and I will eat some humble pie.
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The trend to excuse Trump voters on 16:39 - Nov 13 with 874 views
The trend to excuse Trump voters on 15:30 - Nov 13 by itfcjoe
Yep, it has been commented on before by some.....we need to sort the youth policy out!
Yes, but you're not actively excluding anyone and all fans are more than free to start their own ITFC podcast if they have a problem with yours. In fact Rich is a shining light for the Women's team.
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The trend to excuse Trump voters on 16:43 - Nov 13 with 842 views
The trend to excuse Trump voters on 16:15 - Nov 13 by Europablue
You are talking a lot of sense there, but you fail to mention that our media is highly biased against Trump, and he comes off as too American for our tastes anyway as he is very crass and not cultured in the way he doesn't understand our obtuse customs, even though he is very positive about our country and people.
I don't really care how the media in this and other countries portray Trump - but for what it is worth I do not think the media are biased because he is "too American", I think they are "biased" because his behaviour and commentary are inflammatory and he more often than not lies blatently and seeks to drive division and isolationism.
Having spent nearly 30 years working for 2 x American companies, and spending a considerable amount of time in the company of Americans both socially and professionally, I do not consider Trump's behaviour as indicative of being a typical American, but that of a childish bully unable to accept any form of criticism or acknowledge any gap in ability/credibility.
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The trend to excuse Trump voters on 17:32 - Nov 13 with 677 views
The trend to excuse Trump voters on 16:32 - Nov 13 by Europablue
Anything right of centre looks like fascism to a far-left nut like yourself. I'm not going to defend anyone. Just imagine if you are mistaken and in fact the mostly reasonable people of America are responding to a choice between Trump and an option that they see as worse. Harris backed defunding the police, which is a nutty proposition. California just made it illegal to steal again after testing out not prosecuting people for stealing up to about 500 dollars. All the points that Joe made are centrist views. The prosecutions of Trump are clearly politically motivated by the fact that they go against the precedent of not prosecuting political enemies. Nixon wasn't even impeached. All the dates fit so well with the election schedule and the charges are a really stretch. The democrats publicly stated that they were coming after Trump and demonstrated it with the impeachments. That was the label they targeted for the 2020 election and this time round it was convicted felon. Trump could be guilty of most of these things that he has been accused of (leading an insurrection at the Capitol does not hold up to the test of even going to trial), but we can certainly say that the prosecution/persecution is political. Because of that we can't trust the trials and it's not a good path to follow to use this lawfare as a way to take out your enemies. That really fuels the divide. The reaction to Trump is the problem. If everyone behaves like an adult, then Trump just looks like a buffoon, instead he looks more reasonable to a big part of the electorate than the other option. Elections are almost always about the least worst option.
I am so not a far left nut or far left anything. In conventional terms centre or just left of it. I believe in a mixed economy, social democracy, and, unlike your mate Trump, truthfulness and the rule of law. Harris was in no way far left either Trouble is if you get in to bed with people like Trump and Farage everyone is far left if they don't hold similar views. The Democrats and justice system were on a hiding to nothing regarding Trumps repeated law breaking. Let him get away with it all and the rule of law is lost. Prosecute him and get MAGA fanatics like yourself cry victimisation. You obviously think he is above the law and should be able to do what he wants. In reality he is a grubby failed businessman. Your output is is the trumpian warping of the truth. He should have been impeached once cos he encouraged the storming of the seat of government. He also tried to get Zelensky to fabricate stories re Hunter Biden - a par for the course dirty trick by him which rarely gets noticed. He has done so much, along with his mate Musk, to degrade public standards and corrupt truth. Still fill your boots Maybe others were right and you are a bot
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