| Hooray for capitalism! on 09:25 - Feb 26 with 1233 views | Trequartista |
| Hooray for capitalism! on 09:23 - Feb 26 by DanTheMan |
I imagine people thought the same about feudalism or monarchies for a long time. |
The difference being that they didn't see the alternative fail multiple times. |  |
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| Hooray for capitalism! on 09:31 - Feb 26 with 1211 views | nodge_blue |
| Hooray for capitalism! on 08:41 - Feb 26 by DanTheMan |
I think a powerful counterpoint (and it's one made in the article I posted above) is that when the entire world stopped for 2 years during Covid, we barely moved the needle.
https://www.statista.com/statistics/276629/global-co2-emissions/?__sso_cookie_ch
I know some people disagree with me on this, but I think we're beyond the point where personal responsibility is an effective tool to sort out the issue. |
I agree it's not effective. I was saying that the problem is as much with us as individuals as systems as we choose what we want. The fact the majority chooses to carry on as is, makes it a failure.
I wonder if civilisation can really expand anymore. Maybe the 20th century was its peak. We cant keep increasing our population and consuming more per head than before and not hit problems.
But the answers in the worlds biggest economy has been to turn its back on all that and just put the foot to the floor and bury heads in sand.
But in the meantime we can still make our own decisions. Such as not buy a Tesla. Lets send a message to Musk if nothing else. |  |
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| Hooray for capitalism! on 09:31 - Feb 26 with 1213 views | DanTheMan |
| Hooray for capitalism! on 09:25 - Feb 26 by Trequartista |
The difference being that they didn't see the alternative fail multiple times. |
I don't think we've exhausted every possible political ideology yet, I'm sure there are some people haven't even thought of.
It also depends on your definition of failure. I'd consider an ideology which shifts the planet's climate in such a disastrous way and fails to correct itself a fairly bad ideology. |  |
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| Hooray for capitalism! on 09:32 - Feb 26 with 1211 views | NthQldITFC |
| Hooray for capitalism! on 09:18 - Feb 26 by Trequartista |
I felt angry reading it I must admit, but as capitalism is the only system that works in practice we're stuck with it. |
But it doesn't work, does it, that's been obvious since we've realised that the waste products of free enterprise don't magically disappear, they build up to kill us on our finite and fragile planet.
That's the key fact that everyone needs to understand to get their brains out of this torpid 'business-as-usual' mindset - with some agency, rather than just dumbly watching the world crash around our ears and expecting Hollywood or magic science fiction to miraculously save the day.
I know it's a tired cliché but, Wake Up!
(not addressing you directly ¾!) |  |
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| Hooray for capitalism! on 09:38 - Feb 26 with 1193 views | NthQldITFC |
| Hooray for capitalism! on 09:31 - Feb 26 by DanTheMan |
I don't think we've exhausted every possible political ideology yet, I'm sure there are some people haven't even thought of.
It also depends on your definition of failure. I'd consider an ideology which shifts the planet's climate in such a disastrous way and fails to correct itself a fairly bad ideology. |
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doughnut_(economic_model)
https://doughnuteconomics.org/about-doughnut-economics
Plus - and I wonder if anyone can help me here - there's a local author who wrote a really interesting book about an economy of exchange and sort of 'filling gaps' where work itself was the currency. I've lost his book and his name.
Obviously economic models rather than political ones, but the politics follows the economics, does it not? [Post edited 26 Feb 9:39]
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| Hooray for capitalism! on 09:40 - Feb 26 with 1190 views | Trequartista |
| Hooray for capitalism! on 09:32 - Feb 26 by NthQldITFC |
But it doesn't work, does it, that's been obvious since we've realised that the waste products of free enterprise don't magically disappear, they build up to kill us on our finite and fragile planet.
That's the key fact that everyone needs to understand to get their brains out of this torpid 'business-as-usual' mindset - with some agency, rather than just dumbly watching the world crash around our ears and expecting Hollywood or magic science fiction to miraculously save the day.
I know it's a tired cliché but, Wake Up!
(not addressing you directly ¾!) |
There is scope to fix things within a capitalist system if the will is there. I'm not advocating a free market with no intervention, but changing to communism or something is going to make things a damn sight worse.
I mean socialism on paper is brilliant. I used to think why wouldn't anyone want it. You want to be compassionate for others rather than selfish right? But it doesn't work with human beings. We're wired to look after ourselves and our families. You have to face reality. | |
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| Hooray for capitalism! on 09:44 - Feb 26 with 1171 views | Trequartista |
| Hooray for capitalism! on 09:31 - Feb 26 by DanTheMan |
I don't think we've exhausted every possible political ideology yet, I'm sure there are some people haven't even thought of.
It also depends on your definition of failure. I'd consider an ideology which shifts the planet's climate in such a disastrous way and fails to correct itself a fairly bad ideology. |
Don't think we've got time to dream up another system and see if it works in practice. My definition of failure would probably be starvation or murder of millions of citizens. | |
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| Hooray for capitalism! on 09:44 - Feb 26 with 1168 views | Guthrum |
| Hooray for capitalism! on 09:23 - Feb 26 by DanTheMan |
I imagine people thought the same about feudalism or monarchies for a long time. |
The problem is that Capitalism is seen as a discrete system, apart from things like Feudalism. A lot of this derives from simplistic 19th century conceptions of history by Marx and associates.
In reality, manufacturing, commerce and trade (even very long-distance trade) has been the basis of human civilisation since the first agricultural surpluses allowed people to take on specialist roles, around 10,000 years ago. In Roman and Medieval times there were complex systems of debt and credit to finance trade and government (despite being cash-poor societies). Debt could even be bought and sold, albeit not in a formal stock market.
The issue has always been not capitalism per se, but the way it operates. It's never been an egalitarian system, but levels of wealth-hoarding and inflation are particularly bad at the moment. Partly due to a four or five decade war against regulation, accompanied by the regular crashes which happen when things get out of control. |  |
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| Hooray for capitalism! on 09:49 - Feb 26 with 1133 views | SuperKieranMcKenna |
But all systems are exploited are they not. If you looked how the communist political elite lived versus the abject poverty and oppression of the people in most cases - how is that equitable. Any new system will be used to enrich a small elite the same way as it has through history. For me it’s not that I trust private enterprise, it’s more that I don’t trust government or politicians any more so. I don’t understand why other people have such faith in our politicians or state enterprises to run things any more fairly or responsibly. State run enterprises still provide most of our fossil fuels - in Norway they’ve wound down green investment despite not being driven by profit or shareholder returns. |  | | |
| Hooray for capitalism! on 09:54 - Feb 26 with 1116 views | Guthrum |
| Hooray for capitalism! on 09:40 - Feb 26 by Trequartista |
There is scope to fix things within a capitalist system if the will is there. I'm not advocating a free market with no intervention, but changing to communism or something is going to make things a damn sight worse.
I mean socialism on paper is brilliant. I used to think why wouldn't anyone want it. You want to be compassionate for others rather than selfish right? But it doesn't work with human beings. We're wired to look after ourselves and our families. You have to face reality. |
It's more that we've been taught to look after only ourselves and our families for the last 40 or so years. Individualism has been pushed hard over concepts of subsuming oneself in the group. Partly because too much of the latter ended up with two World Wars and as an ideological reaction to the purported homogenity of the communist states.
"Greed is good" may have been a line from a film (and Loadsamoney a comic parody), but they did capture the spirit of an age in the 1980s. That "Neo-Liberalism"/Libertarianism hasn't gone away. If anything, it's hardened as fewer people are able to access the promised prosperity (tho, to be fair, standards of living and availability of technology are significantly higher than in the 1970s). | |
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| Hooray for capitalism! on 09:59 - Feb 26 with 1080 views | Herbivore |
| Hooray for capitalism! on 09:25 - Feb 26 by Trequartista |
The difference being that they didn't see the alternative fail multiple times. |
I think that's a somewhat disingenuous take. |  |
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| Hooray for capitalism! on 10:03 - Feb 26 with 1074 views | NthQldITFC |
| Hooray for capitalism! on 09:49 - Feb 26 by SuperKieranMcKenna |
But all systems are exploited are they not. If you looked how the communist political elite lived versus the abject poverty and oppression of the people in most cases - how is that equitable. Any new system will be used to enrich a small elite the same way as it has through history. For me it’s not that I trust private enterprise, it’s more that I don’t trust government or politicians any more so. I don’t understand why other people have such faith in our politicians or state enterprises to run things any more fairly or responsibly. State run enterprises still provide most of our fossil fuels - in Norway they’ve wound down green investment despite not being driven by profit or shareholder returns. |
There will certainly still be that primitive urge to stockpile which manifests as anything from obscene wealth in individuals, to nicking all the staplers from the office store room because it's there. The difference now is that everyone knows that we are up against the limits of the box we live in, and that box will fall apart. We'll probably just ignore that, lemming-like, until the end of course - I do realise that. | |
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| Hooray for capitalism! on 10:17 - Feb 26 with 1038 views | jayessess |
| Hooray for capitalism! on 09:23 - Feb 26 by DanTheMan |
I imagine people thought the same about feudalism or monarchies for a long time. |
"We live in capitalism. Its power seems inescapable. So did the divine right of kings. Any human power can be resisted and changed by human beings." Ursula K. Le Guin |  |
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| Hooray for capitalism! on 10:24 - Feb 26 with 1008 views | baxterbasics |
Normal procedure for me here would be to insert my defence of capitalism.
Instead I will just note how quickly the big-boy corporations have realigned their priorities now that Mr T is back at the helm.
Obviously Musk and X was no surprise as he was already onboard. I'm looking at the likes of Zuckerberg, Bezos and co, promptly dropping their facade of being liberal champions and guardians against right-wing disinformation. Google and Nasa scaling back focus on diversity and referring to the Gulf of America. Then as per this thread, the energy giants deciding carbon emissions and fossil fuels 'aint so bad after all.
Just proves how paper thin 'corporate responsibility' really is when challenged by a new world view at the top of the power-food-chain.
Face it, in the short/medium term at least, the progress you want to see will only happen when individuals force it en-masse via their behaviour and upwards demand pressure, or someone else takes charge that is willing to force it through unpopular means. |  |
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| Hooray for capitalism! on 10:36 - Feb 26 with 967 views | NthQldITFC |
| Hooray for capitalism! on 10:24 - Feb 26 by baxterbasics |
Normal procedure for me here would be to insert my defence of capitalism.
Instead I will just note how quickly the big-boy corporations have realigned their priorities now that Mr T is back at the helm.
Obviously Musk and X was no surprise as he was already onboard. I'm looking at the likes of Zuckerberg, Bezos and co, promptly dropping their facade of being liberal champions and guardians against right-wing disinformation. Google and Nasa scaling back focus on diversity and referring to the Gulf of America. Then as per this thread, the energy giants deciding carbon emissions and fossil fuels 'aint so bad after all.
Just proves how paper thin 'corporate responsibility' really is when challenged by a new world view at the top of the power-food-chain.
Face it, in the short/medium term at least, the progress you want to see will only happen when individuals force it en-masse via their behaviour and upwards demand pressure, or someone else takes charge that is willing to force it through unpopular means. |
We're coming together. Which is nice!  | |
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| Hooray for capitalism! on 10:42 - Feb 26 with 944 views | Herbivore |
| Hooray for capitalism! on 09:32 - Feb 26 by NthQldITFC |
But it doesn't work, does it, that's been obvious since we've realised that the waste products of free enterprise don't magically disappear, they build up to kill us on our finite and fragile planet.
That's the key fact that everyone needs to understand to get their brains out of this torpid 'business-as-usual' mindset - with some agency, rather than just dumbly watching the world crash around our ears and expecting Hollywood or magic science fiction to miraculously save the day.
I know it's a tired cliché but, Wake Up!
(not addressing you directly ¾!) |
It's a rather odd definition of "works" when we have the levels of global and national poverty that we do while a tiny number of billionaires continue to accumulate more wealth than they could ever spend. It's also an odd definition when we look at how poor public services are in n some countries (particularly the UK), with governments not having enough money to provide for their citizens while a small number or billionaires continue to hoard wealth beyond that which they could ever spend. It's also an odd definition when we look at the climate crisis and the fact we are continuing to pillage the planet of natural resources and killing it through rampant consumption, all while a small number of billionaires continue to accumulate wealth that they'll never be able to spend. If that is a system that's "working" I'd hate to see what a broken one looks like. | |
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| Hooray for capitalism! on 11:06 - Feb 26 with 892 views | nodge_blue |
| Hooray for capitalism! on 10:42 - Feb 26 by Herbivore |
It's a rather odd definition of "works" when we have the levels of global and national poverty that we do while a tiny number of billionaires continue to accumulate more wealth than they could ever spend. It's also an odd definition when we look at how poor public services are in n some countries (particularly the UK), with governments not having enough money to provide for their citizens while a small number or billionaires continue to hoard wealth beyond that which they could ever spend. It's also an odd definition when we look at the climate crisis and the fact we are continuing to pillage the planet of natural resources and killing it through rampant consumption, all while a small number of billionaires continue to accumulate wealth that they'll never be able to spend. If that is a system that's "working" I'd hate to see what a broken one looks like. |
Theres a few like Bill Gates who do try and do good with their money and I think he has signed up to give away 90% of his wealth.
Thats the kind of approach we need whereby people who have money still feel a responsibility to others and the planet. You would hope that more people would feel like that. But too many now think the 000,000,000's in their bank account is a show of strength in the USA and are reluctant to diminish their perceived power through accumulated wealth .
Whilst at the same time threatening workers to bullet point their week or get sacked.
My blood has boiled a lot this last month and thats coming from a centrist dad. | |
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| Hooray for capitalism! on 11:08 - Feb 26 with 879 views | EuanTown |
Systematic overthrow of underclass |  | | |
| Hooray for capitalism! on 11:22 - Feb 26 with 857 views | Guthrum |
| Hooray for capitalism! on 11:06 - Feb 26 by nodge_blue |
Theres a few like Bill Gates who do try and do good with their money and I think he has signed up to give away 90% of his wealth.
Thats the kind of approach we need whereby people who have money still feel a responsibility to others and the planet. You would hope that more people would feel like that. But too many now think the 000,000,000's in their bank account is a show of strength in the USA and are reluctant to diminish their perceived power through accumulated wealth .
Whilst at the same time threatening workers to bullet point their week or get sacked.
My blood has boiled a lot this last month and thats coming from a centrist dad. |
Giving to help the poor and unfortunate used historically to be seen as righteous behaviour, a civic duty, even. One issue with the tax-supported welfare state is that it has come to be resented as a burden. Especially as it has absolved the wealthy of their moral responsibility to give.
That having been said, as someone who used to work in the charity sector, very many rich people give a lot of money away to good causes every year. | |
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| Hooray for capitalism! on 11:27 - Feb 26 with 852 views | leitrimblue |
| Hooray for capitalism! on 10:42 - Feb 26 by Herbivore |
It's a rather odd definition of "works" when we have the levels of global and national poverty that we do while a tiny number of billionaires continue to accumulate more wealth than they could ever spend. It's also an odd definition when we look at how poor public services are in n some countries (particularly the UK), with governments not having enough money to provide for their citizens while a small number or billionaires continue to hoard wealth beyond that which they could ever spend. It's also an odd definition when we look at the climate crisis and the fact we are continuing to pillage the planet of natural resources and killing it through rampant consumption, all while a small number of billionaires continue to accumulate wealth that they'll never be able to spend. If that is a system that's "working" I'd hate to see what a broken one looks like. |
Yer exactly, its about how we define working.
This system definitely isn't working for the planet or the majority of its occupants. Though its all going swimmingly for a tiny percentage of elite billionaires.
I would define a working system as 1 in which all occupants have fair and equal access to all the resources needed to live a successful life.
From what I can tell this system last existed in Northern Europe about 6000 years ago with Mesolithic hunter gatherers.
It's been a steady downhill decline ever since that with more and more of those resources being under the ownership of smaller and smaller elite groupings. |  | | |
| Hooray for capitalism! on 11:33 - Feb 26 with 815 views | lowhouseblue |
| Hooray for capitalism! on 11:27 - Feb 26 by leitrimblue |
Yer exactly, its about how we define working.
This system definitely isn't working for the planet or the majority of its occupants. Though its all going swimmingly for a tiny percentage of elite billionaires.
I would define a working system as 1 in which all occupants have fair and equal access to all the resources needed to live a successful life.
From what I can tell this system last existed in Northern Europe about 6000 years ago with Mesolithic hunter gatherers.
It's been a steady downhill decline ever since that with more and more of those resources being under the ownership of smaller and smaller elite groupings. |
there must be some re-enactment community where you could go and live as a mesolithic hunter gatherer from 6000 years ago? it doesn't sound better than capitalism to me, but whatever floats your hollowed out tree trunk i guess. |  |
| And so as the loose-bowelled pigeon of time swoops low over the unsuspecting tourist of destiny, and the flatulent skunk of fate wanders into the air-conditioning system of eternity, I notice it's the end of the show |
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| Hooray for capitalism! on 11:37 - Feb 26 with 771 views | NthQldITFC |
| Hooray for capitalism! on 11:27 - Feb 26 by leitrimblue |
Yer exactly, its about how we define working.
This system definitely isn't working for the planet or the majority of its occupants. Though its all going swimmingly for a tiny percentage of elite billionaires.
I would define a working system as 1 in which all occupants have fair and equal access to all the resources needed to live a successful life.
From what I can tell this system last existed in Northern Europe about 6000 years ago with Mesolithic hunter gatherers.
It's been a steady downhill decline ever since that with more and more of those resources being under the ownership of smaller and smaller elite groupings. |
Yes, farming and staying in one place enabled the practice of stockpiling and the suspicion that your neighbour was pinching your crops.
When we moved about a bit, all you owned was all you could carry and there was plenty to go around.
This is the modus operandi that the human race grew up in and that's why I think it's ballocks when people put the lazy argument that it's human nature to pile up wealth to protect your family - it's not, it's a learned habit which is now killing us, and a habit we need to kick.
Also hunter-gatherers always look so much happier to me, for some reason. | |
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| Hooray for capitalism! on 11:41 - Feb 26 with 746 views | lowhouseblue |
| Hooray for capitalism! on 11:37 - Feb 26 by NthQldITFC |
Yes, farming and staying in one place enabled the practice of stockpiling and the suspicion that your neighbour was pinching your crops.
When we moved about a bit, all you owned was all you could carry and there was plenty to go around.
This is the modus operandi that the human race grew up in and that's why I think it's ballocks when people put the lazy argument that it's human nature to pile up wealth to protect your family - it's not, it's a learned habit which is now killing us, and a habit we need to kick.
Also hunter-gatherers always look so much happier to me, for some reason. |
"Also hunter-gatherers always look so much happier to me, for some reason."
it's because, in order to agree to be filmed, the anthropologists bribed them with mars bars. | |
| And so as the loose-bowelled pigeon of time swoops low over the unsuspecting tourist of destiny, and the flatulent skunk of fate wanders into the air-conditioning system of eternity, I notice it's the end of the show |
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| Hooray for capitalism! on 11:46 - Feb 26 with 701 views | J2BLUE |
'The energy giant revealed the shift in strategy on Wednesday following pressure from some investors unhappy its profits and share price have been much lower than its rivals.'
Profit over all else is nothing new but it's still incredible to see it announced so brazenly. Probably emboldened knowing no governments will want to upset the nutter in the white house by criticising this even though they aren't an American company. It would still be against Trump's drill, drill, drill mentality. |  |
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