| The Wing Problem 12:03 - Dec 1 with 1260 views | EddyJ |
IMO our main problem at the moment is our wingers.
There is a lot of criticism of Hirst, which I think is unfair. We sacrifice Hirst by running him into the ground and expecting him to occupy several defenders. We do this to free up our "star" wingers. We have spent the best part of £80m on Philogene, Clarke, Walle-Egeli and McAteer and they are not delivering.
Philogene is a moments player. He has an incredible shot and is capable of scoring goals from nothing. Other than that, he offers very little to the team. And we haven't seen enough moments to justify carrying him.
Clarke slows the game to a walking pace and then weakly runs into the first defender. We need to be moving the ball quickly and he is a net negative to everything we should be doing. One long shot aside, his goals have been tap ins and penalties. His goals tally massively flatters his meagre contribution to the team.
Walle-Egeli has shown flashes of potential - a few nice cross-field balls or crosses. But we need more. I am somewhat forgiving towards him due to his age and settling into a new country.
McAteer looks like the kind of £500k punt we used to take in a bygone age. I don't see anything from him that we wouldn't have got from Harness, Tabb, Hunt, Ward, Anderson etc... We have massively overpaid for a lower championship effort player.
Furlong offers nothing in attack and is detrimental to his winger by always passing behind him.
Davis has been quiet this season because Clarke and Philogene keep getting in his way or fail to pass to him when he overlaps. He was effective with Broadhead, who used to drift infield and leave him space. Walle-Egeli is our most Broadhead-like player, but he plays on the other wing.
We need to stop expecting our "star" wingers to score individual goals and coach them to move the ball faster and pass more. |  | | |  |
| The Wing Problem on 12:09 - Dec 1 with 1218 views | homer_123 |
Whilst you maybe right, I would suggest that actually the bigger issue is the CAM role. We have not found a Chappers replacement.
And for me, this plays a significant part of why the wingers are not being quite as effective as we have seen historically, and also why Hirst is being given a lot of stick as well.
That is the critical position that binds the width and forward play - without it we are, as you say, relying on individual play or play from one side or the other as opposed to a more collective forward play we have seen in the past under KM.
I'm not saying bringing Chappers back is the answer but I think if we can fix that CAM role - the width and lone striker issues are negated. |  |
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| The Wing Problem on 12:24 - Dec 1 with 1161 views | BseaBlue |
| The Wing Problem on 12:09 - Dec 1 by homer_123 |
Whilst you maybe right, I would suggest that actually the bigger issue is the CAM role. We have not found a Chappers replacement.
And for me, this plays a significant part of why the wingers are not being quite as effective as we have seen historically, and also why Hirst is being given a lot of stick as well.
That is the critical position that binds the width and forward play - without it we are, as you say, relying on individual play or play from one side or the other as opposed to a more collective forward play we have seen in the past under KM.
I'm not saying bringing Chappers back is the answer but I think if we can fix that CAM role - the width and lone striker issues are negated. |
I think you are both right. We haven't found anybody else than can contribute in the 10 to allow us to switch it quick enough but at the same time, we worked the ball into really good wide areas on Friday with a real lack of quality when it came to getting the ball in the box/taking our chances.
It seems to be at the moment that our wingers are in competition with each other to get their place back on the bench every time they are given a start! Someone needs to step up and hit the ground running. Maybe some of that is that we are constantly changing the side but can see why we are opting for rotation. |  | | |
| The Wing Problem on 12:36 - Dec 1 with 1115 views | LeoMuff |
I don’t think we can criticise Philogene and Clarke much with 6 goals each and an assist, for left wingers who don’t always start that decent. Egeli is hasn’t even played the equivalent of 8 90 min games in his first season in England at 19 so is exempt really. Macateer is a mystery as why we spent that much when we had Ogbene.
Cajuste was brought in to create in midfield he has 2 assists, Taylor 1. While Akpom has 1 goal and 1 assist and Szmodics 0 of anything. This is the areas for me why we don’t create enough clear chances despite tons of possession and why Hirst looks so ineffective as the service is negligible. |  |
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| The Wing Problem on 13:00 - Dec 1 with 1049 views | MrPotatoHead |
I can't agree on Philogene and Clarke, they've shared that position and have 12 goals and 2 assists between them already, I'm not sure we could've asked for much more.
The problem is the right side hasn't performed. Agree on McAteer, he's a willing worker and runs a lot, but £12m of quality he isn't. Egeli is young, very young. He may well come good and of course we all hope he does, but its a tough role to drop a kid into. He's shown moments, but on the whole the output isn't where it needs to be if we're to be a top 2 side. |  | | |
| The Wing Problem on 13:24 - Dec 1 with 979 views | tractorboy1978 |
| The Wing Problem on 12:36 - Dec 1 by LeoMuff |
I don’t think we can criticise Philogene and Clarke much with 6 goals each and an assist, for left wingers who don’t always start that decent. Egeli is hasn’t even played the equivalent of 8 90 min games in his first season in England at 19 so is exempt really. Macateer is a mystery as why we spent that much when we had Ogbene.
Cajuste was brought in to create in midfield he has 2 assists, Taylor 1. While Akpom has 1 goal and 1 assist and Szmodics 0 of anything. This is the areas for me why we don’t create enough clear chances despite tons of possession and why Hirst looks so ineffective as the service is negligible. |
I'm not sure you can really exempt Egeli. When you sign a player for a Championship record breaking fee of £17.5m there is surely an expectation that they deliver very quickly? He's only 19 and I think he is going to be a quality player but we need to start turning the promise into regular effectiveness (much like we saw with Omari in 23/24) very soon. Posted in another thread above I am not really sure about him wide right. I'd be getting him in the 10 this month and seeing what he can do. We haven't really found another option that works in that position yet.
I've also been banging the drum for Clarke and Philogene to be on the pitch at the same time too. Especially at home. We need them both flowing and confident. Not sure being in and out of the starting 11 helps them personally. There seems a fixation on winning games from the bench when we would be better winning games from the start and then making changes. [Post edited 1 Dec 13:25]
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| The Wing Problem on 13:32 - Dec 1 with 930 views | BseaBlue |
| The Wing Problem on 13:24 - Dec 1 by tractorboy1978 |
I'm not sure you can really exempt Egeli. When you sign a player for a Championship record breaking fee of £17.5m there is surely an expectation that they deliver very quickly? He's only 19 and I think he is going to be a quality player but we need to start turning the promise into regular effectiveness (much like we saw with Omari in 23/24) very soon. Posted in another thread above I am not really sure about him wide right. I'd be getting him in the 10 this month and seeing what he can do. We haven't really found another option that works in that position yet.
I've also been banging the drum for Clarke and Philogene to be on the pitch at the same time too. Especially at home. We need them both flowing and confident. Not sure being in and out of the starting 11 helps them personally. There seems a fixation on winning games from the bench when we would be better winning games from the start and then making changes. [Post edited 1 Dec 13:25]
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It has suprised me that we haven't seen him in the 10 yet considering how ineffective we have been there.
There was one game where Clarke came on with Philogene on the pitch and played on the right and I thought he looked dangerous but then I think he could also do a job in the 10. | | | |
| The Wing Problem on 13:50 - Dec 1 with 866 views | GavTWTD |
Am I right in thinking that Davis no longer comes inside the last few games and sticks to the wing? Not sure I can remember that too many times whereas at the start of the season he was doing it all the time to confuse the opposition and give Philogene more space. |  |
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| The Wing Problem on 13:57 - Dec 1 with 831 views | LeoMuff |
| The Wing Problem on 13:24 - Dec 1 by tractorboy1978 |
I'm not sure you can really exempt Egeli. When you sign a player for a Championship record breaking fee of £17.5m there is surely an expectation that they deliver very quickly? He's only 19 and I think he is going to be a quality player but we need to start turning the promise into regular effectiveness (much like we saw with Omari in 23/24) very soon. Posted in another thread above I am not really sure about him wide right. I'd be getting him in the 10 this month and seeing what he can do. We haven't really found another option that works in that position yet.
I've also been banging the drum for Clarke and Philogene to be on the pitch at the same time too. Especially at home. We need them both flowing and confident. Not sure being in and out of the starting 11 helps them personally. There seems a fixation on winning games from the bench when we would be better winning games from the start and then making changes. [Post edited 1 Dec 13:25]
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We chose to spend that cash on a 19yo with 30 professional games to his name. I think the fact he is now a regular is progression enough, if you think how Omari was at the start of 23/24 | |
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| The Wing Problem on 14:09 - Dec 1 with 793 views | Bluemike31 |
The more I watch of us and Jack Clarke it has me thinking, why in the hell do we not try this guy in the Number ten role, for me the way he is playing it would be perfect for him, look back at any game you care to mention and he pretty much ALWAYS cuts in so he is central in and around the box, often laying off passes or sending it to the wide player, whoever that may be !!! I personally think it would work and work well, let's face it we've tried various options there so far with little or no success, Szmodics, Nunez, Akpom etc, Egeli had a small cameo there and looked decent but KM thinks otherwise.
Trying Clarke in that role would give us various line up options and allow for Philogene & Clarke, (both very expensive signings), to actually both start in the same team !!!
Walton
Furlong O'Shea Kipre Davis
Matusiwa Taylor
Egeli Clarke Philogene
Akpom
You have the options of Nunez dropping into the Taylor role, McAteer starting for Egeli, Hirst/Azon replacing Akpom etc etc etc.
Never gonna happen but food for thought. | | | |
| The Wing Problem on 14:46 - Dec 1 with 741 views | EddyJ |
A few responses saying 12 goals is a good return for Philogene and Clarke. I don't disagree.
But the way we are exclusively playing through them and expecting them to do individual magic means 12 goals is not enough. Playing more as a team, we could have scored far more than 12, even if those two might individually have scored fewer.
Clearly others do need to step up. There is no denying that Azon, Akpon and Szmodics have not been good enough and 2 goals between the three of them is poor. The latter two have shown they are capable of scoring in the Championship. How much of this is them vs. how they are being played? In Smodicz's case, there is a fitness issue too. | | | |
| The Wing Problem on 17:00 - Dec 1 with 606 views | MrPotatoHead |
| The Wing Problem on 14:46 - Dec 1 by EddyJ |
A few responses saying 12 goals is a good return for Philogene and Clarke. I don't disagree.
But the way we are exclusively playing through them and expecting them to do individual magic means 12 goals is not enough. Playing more as a team, we could have scored far more than 12, even if those two might individually have scored fewer.
Clearly others do need to step up. There is no denying that Azon, Akpon and Szmodics have not been good enough and 2 goals between the three of them is poor. The latter two have shown they are capable of scoring in the Championship. How much of this is them vs. how they are being played? In Smodicz's case, there is a fitness issue too. |
Its a bit chicken and egg. Are we playing through them more because Davis & Philogene is just a much stronger proposition than our right hand side and therefore they're getting more of the ball? Or maybe it just feels like they're getting more of the ball because they're looking after it and doing something with it.
We didn't feel as lopsided when Omari was here on the right, I just don't think we're threatening to create a lot on the right. Egeli has shown some nice glimpses but his delivery has at times been poor, and I've lost count of the number of times he cuts inside and tw@ts it at the defenders shins from 6 inches away. He looks like a number 9 or 10 being show horned into a right sided role to me. | | | |
| The Wing Problem on 17:14 - Dec 1 with 575 views | mellowblue |
I did not see the need for left wingers, let alone 2 super expensive ones. Leif had that area covered and it leaves us short in the middle. McK has gone from an unusual system to a bog-standard one. Just think we are over-stating the value of out and out wingers in todays game. | | | |
| The Wing Problem on 17:22 - Dec 1 with 556 views | SuffolkPunchFC |
My eyes - and the stats bear this out - suggest most of our attacking threat comes from the wingers. IMO you're misdirecting you criticism here. | | | |
| The Wing Problem on 08:41 - Dec 2 with 362 views | EddyJ |
| The Wing Problem on 17:22 - Dec 1 by SuffolkPunchFC |
My eyes - and the stats bear this out - suggest most of our attacking threat comes from the wingers. IMO you're misdirecting you criticism here. |
Not sure stats are particularly interesting or relevant here.
Its like Westlake talking about Matusiwa in every commentary "he has the most tackles in the team." Well you'd kind of expect that from our almost ever-present defensive midfielder, wouldn't you?
Likewise, if we direct all our play through left wing, you'd expect them to be our biggest attacking threat.
The question is: would we have a bigger net attacking threat if we didn't funnel all our play through left wing. Would our team be more effective if Philogene and Clarke passed more, moved the ball faster, and left space for Davis to do his thing? Would we look better if we were playing Broadhead at left wing, even if he is a worse player than Philogene and Clarke on paper? | | | |
| The Wing Problem on 09:30 - Dec 2 with 285 views | Bluemike31 |
| The Wing Problem on 08:41 - Dec 2 by EddyJ |
Not sure stats are particularly interesting or relevant here.
Its like Westlake talking about Matusiwa in every commentary "he has the most tackles in the team." Well you'd kind of expect that from our almost ever-present defensive midfielder, wouldn't you?
Likewise, if we direct all our play through left wing, you'd expect them to be our biggest attacking threat.
The question is: would we have a bigger net attacking threat if we didn't funnel all our play through left wing. Would our team be more effective if Philogene and Clarke passed more, moved the ball faster, and left space for Davis to do his thing? Would we look better if we were playing Broadhead at left wing, even if he is a worse player than Philogene and Clarke on paper? |
Everyone needs to move faster, we are so slow and ponderous compared with how we used to attack. | | | |
| The Wing Problem on 11:27 - Dec 2 with 192 views | HighgateBlue |
Goals win games. Especially when it comes to attacking players.
Clarke and Philogene are our top scorers, and have scored 41% of our goals between them. Despite starting only 7 and 12 games respectively.
Philogene gets his shots on target 44% of the time. That is seriously impressive, and way ahead of any of our other attackers or midfielders. He's scored in 4 games. We won 3 of them and drew one. If the other attackers had 'moments' like that, we'd be in the top two. The problem is that the others don't, not that he /does/.
Clarke (18.3 yards) shoots from further out than Akpom, SS, McAteer, Cajuste even, and his shots are on target 29% of the time, which is better than the majority of our striker. He has also scored 4 goals from his 5 non-penalty shots on target. He's clinical, and he shoots from further out than most. When you're looking at his pile of goals and criticising them for being of a particular character (tap ins), I think there's a "wood for the trees" moment. How many have Egeli, McAteer, SS, Akpom scored between them? One. And that was when Akpom was playing number 9. And as for penalties, he scores them. That's a good thing. Hirst's record in that regard this season is considerably worse.
If the problem is our wingers, it's on the other side of the park. Zero goals. Shots which hit the target once in a blue moon. Furlong (2) has more assists than all of our right wingers plus Akpom plus SS put together (1). McAteer in particular has some impressively poor stats across the board. An awful lot of 0.00 going on. I saw a "2" and was interested in what it was. Yellow cards.
And let's not even get started on the "10". |  | | |
| The Wing Problem on 12:09 - Dec 2 with 156 views | Smoresy |
| The Wing Problem on 11:27 - Dec 2 by HighgateBlue |
Goals win games. Especially when it comes to attacking players.
Clarke and Philogene are our top scorers, and have scored 41% of our goals between them. Despite starting only 7 and 12 games respectively.
Philogene gets his shots on target 44% of the time. That is seriously impressive, and way ahead of any of our other attackers or midfielders. He's scored in 4 games. We won 3 of them and drew one. If the other attackers had 'moments' like that, we'd be in the top two. The problem is that the others don't, not that he /does/.
Clarke (18.3 yards) shoots from further out than Akpom, SS, McAteer, Cajuste even, and his shots are on target 29% of the time, which is better than the majority of our striker. He has also scored 4 goals from his 5 non-penalty shots on target. He's clinical, and he shoots from further out than most. When you're looking at his pile of goals and criticising them for being of a particular character (tap ins), I think there's a "wood for the trees" moment. How many have Egeli, McAteer, SS, Akpom scored between them? One. And that was when Akpom was playing number 9. And as for penalties, he scores them. That's a good thing. Hirst's record in that regard this season is considerably worse.
If the problem is our wingers, it's on the other side of the park. Zero goals. Shots which hit the target once in a blue moon. Furlong (2) has more assists than all of our right wingers plus Akpom plus SS put together (1). McAteer in particular has some impressively poor stats across the board. An awful lot of 0.00 going on. I saw a "2" and was interested in what it was. Yellow cards.
And let's not even get started on the "10". |
Philogene is certainly the best striker of a ball at the club. His energies are largely directed towards manufacturing a shooting opportunity for himself; of our wingers he's probably created the least for others. I make you right in that a winger who scores in a third of games, creates a modest amount otherwise, is an asset more than a hindrance.
Btw in normal time* Akpom has scored 18 penalties, missed 8, according to a well-used resource. Hirst has scored 13, missed 4. Clarke is 7 from 7.
*Penalty shootout stats are hard to find or not recorded. | | | |
| The Wing Problem on 12:17 - Dec 2 with 132 views | vilanovablue |
The big issue for me is that both Philogene and Clarke both want to cut in which then causes congestion especially against a low block. I don't have an answer it's just an observation. |  | | |
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