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Build more Grammar Schools 09:47 - Oct 20 with 6067 viewschicoazul

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-41664459

Pupils from grammars tore these regional & class barriers down to getting into Oxbridge 30 years ago. Consequently we saw a lot of people with different backgrounds in the civil service, politics, the media, medicine, education, all the key institutions of this country. Those same people have no chance now according to this survey.

In the spirit of reconciliation and happiness at the end of the Banter Era (RIP) and as a result of promotion I have cleared out my ignore list. Look forwards to reading your posts!
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Build more Grammar Schools on 10:11 - Oct 20 with 6038 viewsMarshalls_Mullet

I went to a grammar school that selected people aged 13 via an entrance test, for intake at 14 (i.e. start of GCSE year)

So the school was purely for 14-18 year olds. In my experience it worked very well, a real mix of demographics attended the school and benefited from it.

I also knew a lot of people who remained at the comprehensive schools, and benefited from going from being middle of the class, to suddenly being top of the class. This helped their education and provided good results.

Perfectly good system.

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Build more Grammar Schools on 10:54 - Oct 20 with 6014 viewsNo9

Something interesting I was made aware of this week-
Norfolk has one of the lowest education standards (measured) in the UK
Norfolk has the highest number of private schools in the UK
Noroflk now has the highest number of home teaching in the UK

Make of that what you will but consensus locally is that there is a serious dumbing down of pupils in the new schools
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Build more Grammar Schools on 11:27 - Oct 20 with 5980 viewssoupytwist

Build more Grammar Schools on 10:54 - Oct 20 by No9

Something interesting I was made aware of this week-
Norfolk has one of the lowest education standards (measured) in the UK
Norfolk has the highest number of private schools in the UK
Noroflk now has the highest number of home teaching in the UK

Make of that what you will but consensus locally is that there is a serious dumbing down of pupils in the new schools


According to this website - http://schoolswebdirectory.co.uk/ Norfolk does not have the highest number of independent schools in the UK. Nowhere near in fact.

I'd also be surprised if it has the highest number of children being home schooled.

What is a 'serious dumbing down of pupils'?
[Post edited 20 Oct 2017 15:26]
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Build more Grammar Schools on 11:38 - Oct 20 with 5976 viewsBOjK

Nonsense. We should abolish the existing grammar schools. Divisive, give overall worse outcomes, reduce social mobility and completely screw over late-bloomers.


More interestingly though (at least to me) I've long thought that this hides a bigger problem. Either grammar schools are better or they are worse. Either splitting the school cohorts at age 11 into two groups by academic ability increases social mobility and overall attainment or it doesn't. And it is easy to find out which it is.

And if grammar schools are better we should have them all across the country. And if they are worse they should be abolished. Either we are letting down 95% of the children in this country or we are letting down 5% and whichever it is we should fix it.

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Build more Grammar Schools on 11:58 - Oct 20 with 5952 viewsBorisOrTrevor

Build more Grammar Schools on 10:54 - Oct 20 by No9

Something interesting I was made aware of this week-
Norfolk has one of the lowest education standards (measured) in the UK
Norfolk has the highest number of private schools in the UK
Noroflk now has the highest number of home teaching in the UK

Make of that what you will but consensus locally is that there is a serious dumbing down of pupils in the new schools


Norfolk also has most number of people with 6 fingers.

BOT

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Build more Grammar Schools on 12:11 - Oct 20 with 5942 viewsMarshalls_Mullet

Build more Grammar Schools on 11:38 - Oct 20 by BOjK

Nonsense. We should abolish the existing grammar schools. Divisive, give overall worse outcomes, reduce social mobility and completely screw over late-bloomers.


More interestingly though (at least to me) I've long thought that this hides a bigger problem. Either grammar schools are better or they are worse. Either splitting the school cohorts at age 11 into two groups by academic ability increases social mobility and overall attainment or it doesn't. And it is easy to find out which it is.

And if grammar schools are better we should have them all across the country. And if they are worse they should be abolished. Either we are letting down 95% of the children in this country or we are letting down 5% and whichever it is we should fix it.


That wasnt my experience. Hey ho.

Poll: Would Lambert have acheived better results than Cook if given the same resources

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Build more Grammar Schools on 12:12 - Oct 20 with 5940 viewsNo9

Build more Grammar Schools on 11:58 - Oct 20 by BorisOrTrevor

Norfolk also has most number of people with 6 fingers.


Really, can you show me some because I have never met anyone from Norfolk with 6 fingers
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Build more Grammar Schools on 12:14 - Oct 20 with 5936 viewsNo9

Build more Grammar Schools on 11:38 - Oct 20 by BOjK

Nonsense. We should abolish the existing grammar schools. Divisive, give overall worse outcomes, reduce social mobility and completely screw over late-bloomers.


More interestingly though (at least to me) I've long thought that this hides a bigger problem. Either grammar schools are better or they are worse. Either splitting the school cohorts at age 11 into two groups by academic ability increases social mobility and overall attainment or it doesn't. And it is easy to find out which it is.

And if grammar schools are better we should have them all across the country. And if they are worse they should be abolished. Either we are letting down 95% of the children in this country or we are letting down 5% and whichever it is we should fix it.


Most of the kids I went to school with outperformed our counterparts in grammar schools when we all went out into the wider world
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Build more Grammar Schools on 12:24 - Oct 20 with 5924 viewschicoazul

Build more Grammar Schools on 11:38 - Oct 20 by BOjK

Nonsense. We should abolish the existing grammar schools. Divisive, give overall worse outcomes, reduce social mobility and completely screw over late-bloomers.


More interestingly though (at least to me) I've long thought that this hides a bigger problem. Either grammar schools are better or they are worse. Either splitting the school cohorts at age 11 into two groups by academic ability increases social mobility and overall attainment or it doesn't. And it is easy to find out which it is.

And if grammar schools are better we should have them all across the country. And if they are worse they should be abolished. Either we are letting down 95% of the children in this country or we are letting down 5% and whichever it is we should fix it.


I would prefer a two stream system based on ability rather than a two stream system based on wealth which is what we currently have.

EDIT: do you mind if I ask what sort of school you went to e.g. a grammar, a private, a comp? I know you are a clever successful man.
[Post edited 20 Oct 2017 12:26]

In the spirit of reconciliation and happiness at the end of the Banter Era (RIP) and as a result of promotion I have cleared out my ignore list. Look forwards to reading your posts!
Poll: With Evans taking 65% in Huddersfield, is the Banter Era over?

1
Build more Grammar Schools on 12:30 - Oct 20 with 5913 viewsmeekreech

Build more Grammar Schools on 11:38 - Oct 20 by BOjK

Nonsense. We should abolish the existing grammar schools. Divisive, give overall worse outcomes, reduce social mobility and completely screw over late-bloomers.


More interestingly though (at least to me) I've long thought that this hides a bigger problem. Either grammar schools are better or they are worse. Either splitting the school cohorts at age 11 into two groups by academic ability increases social mobility and overall attainment or it doesn't. And it is easy to find out which it is.

And if grammar schools are better we should have them all across the country. And if they are worse they should be abolished. Either we are letting down 95% of the children in this country or we are letting down 5% and whichever it is we should fix it.


Having been educated at a grammar school I can give a fairly clear opinion on the benefits of grammar school education. At the one that I attended the pupils covered the complete spectrum of backgrounds, some the sons of manual workers , some the sons of professional and privileged families. It made no difference to the treatment or opportunities they received and no barriers to their future prospects were in place . The majority of my contemporaries went on to successful careers in their chosen professions . Having seen the outcome of the comprehensive system of education it is apparent to me that standards are now so much lower as children now no longer receive a proper education with subjects being cut and reduced in range! I am able to show this in the knowledge that the subject matter is being eroded. My son was having trouble with a couple of his " A " levels. I asked if I could help but he felt I had not studied them and could not help . When I looked at the problems I was shocked to find that the subject matter was dealt with by my school in the first year of " O " levels in the third year !

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Build more Grammar Schools on 12:31 - Oct 20 with 5910 viewsGeoffSentence

Build more Grammar Schools on 11:38 - Oct 20 by BOjK

Nonsense. We should abolish the existing grammar schools. Divisive, give overall worse outcomes, reduce social mobility and completely screw over late-bloomers.


More interestingly though (at least to me) I've long thought that this hides a bigger problem. Either grammar schools are better or they are worse. Either splitting the school cohorts at age 11 into two groups by academic ability increases social mobility and overall attainment or it doesn't. And it is easy to find out which it is.

And if grammar schools are better we should have them all across the country. And if they are worse they should be abolished. Either we are letting down 95% of the children in this country or we are letting down 5% and whichever it is we should fix it.


Agreed. The top set of pupils in comprehensive schools, those who would have gone to grammars in a selective area, does just as well as their selective brethren.

As a grammar school boy myself I would like to add that separating children by academic ability also splits up friends.

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Build more Grammar Schools on 12:34 - Oct 20 with 5906 viewslowhouseblue

Build more Grammar Schools on 12:30 - Oct 20 by meekreech

Having been educated at a grammar school I can give a fairly clear opinion on the benefits of grammar school education. At the one that I attended the pupils covered the complete spectrum of backgrounds, some the sons of manual workers , some the sons of professional and privileged families. It made no difference to the treatment or opportunities they received and no barriers to their future prospects were in place . The majority of my contemporaries went on to successful careers in their chosen professions . Having seen the outcome of the comprehensive system of education it is apparent to me that standards are now so much lower as children now no longer receive a proper education with subjects being cut and reduced in range! I am able to show this in the knowledge that the subject matter is being eroded. My son was having trouble with a couple of his " A " levels. I asked if I could help but he felt I had not studied them and could not help . When I looked at the problems I was shocked to find that the subject matter was dealt with by my school in the first year of " O " levels in the third year !


all the data shows that grammar schools are hugely socially selective.

And so as the loose-bowelled pigeon of time swoops low over the unsuspecting tourist of destiny, and the flatulent skunk of fate wanders into the air-conditioning system of eternity, I notice it's the end of the show

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Build more Grammar Schools on 12:35 - Oct 20 with 5905 viewsSwansea_Blue

Build more Grammar Schools on 11:38 - Oct 20 by BOjK

Nonsense. We should abolish the existing grammar schools. Divisive, give overall worse outcomes, reduce social mobility and completely screw over late-bloomers.


More interestingly though (at least to me) I've long thought that this hides a bigger problem. Either grammar schools are better or they are worse. Either splitting the school cohorts at age 11 into two groups by academic ability increases social mobility and overall attainment or it doesn't. And it is easy to find out which it is.

And if grammar schools are better we should have them all across the country. And if they are worse they should be abolished. Either we are letting down 95% of the children in this country or we are letting down 5% and whichever it is we should fix it.


A quick Google sheets there's been work on this following the govt's proposals to increase number of grammar schools. - http://epi.org.uk/report/grammar-schools-social-mobility/

Their key findings include:
- "we find no overall attainment impact of grammar schools, either positive or negative."
- "We do not find a significant positive impact on social mobility"

No idea how valid their findings are though.

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Build more Grammar Schools on 12:41 - Oct 20 with 5896 viewschicoazul

Build more Grammar Schools on 12:31 - Oct 20 by GeoffSentence

Agreed. The top set of pupils in comprehensive schools, those who would have gone to grammars in a selective area, does just as well as their selective brethren.

As a grammar school boy myself I would like to add that separating children by academic ability also splits up friends.


I'm always very interested at the number of grammar school alumni who would do away with them.

In the spirit of reconciliation and happiness at the end of the Banter Era (RIP) and as a result of promotion I have cleared out my ignore list. Look forwards to reading your posts!
Poll: With Evans taking 65% in Huddersfield, is the Banter Era over?

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Build more Grammar Schools on 13:01 - Oct 20 with 5872 viewsBOjK

Build more Grammar Schools on 12:24 - Oct 20 by chicoazul

I would prefer a two stream system based on ability rather than a two stream system based on wealth which is what we currently have.

EDIT: do you mind if I ask what sort of school you went to e.g. a grammar, a private, a comp? I know you are a clever successful man.
[Post edited 20 Oct 2017 12:26]


I went to a comprehensive.

Blog: [Blog] Keep Calm and Carry on (Or Why the Club is Not in Crisis from Top to Bottom)

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Build more Grammar Schools on 13:08 - Oct 20 with 5866 viewsGeoffSentence

Build more Grammar Schools on 12:41 - Oct 20 by chicoazul

I'm always very interested at the number of grammar school alumni who would do away with them.


I am one who would.

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Build more Grammar Schools on 13:14 - Oct 20 with 5856 viewsMarshalls_Mullet

Build more Grammar Schools on 12:41 - Oct 20 by chicoazul

I'm always very interested at the number of grammar school alumni who would do away with them.


I wouldn't.

Poll: Would Lambert have acheived better results than Cook if given the same resources

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Build more Grammar Schools on 13:17 - Oct 20 with 5849 viewsSwansea_Blue

Build more Grammar Schools on 12:30 - Oct 20 by meekreech

Having been educated at a grammar school I can give a fairly clear opinion on the benefits of grammar school education. At the one that I attended the pupils covered the complete spectrum of backgrounds, some the sons of manual workers , some the sons of professional and privileged families. It made no difference to the treatment or opportunities they received and no barriers to their future prospects were in place . The majority of my contemporaries went on to successful careers in their chosen professions . Having seen the outcome of the comprehensive system of education it is apparent to me that standards are now so much lower as children now no longer receive a proper education with subjects being cut and reduced in range! I am able to show this in the knowledge that the subject matter is being eroded. My son was having trouble with a couple of his " A " levels. I asked if I could help but he felt I had not studied them and could not help . When I looked at the problems I was shocked to find that the subject matter was dealt with by my school in the first year of " O " levels in the third year !


I could say exactly the same based on my experience of going through the comprehensive system. Anecdotal accounts have limited value to the setting of policy though.

It doesn't sound like either system trumps the other when you look at the data.

I'm not especially fussed either way, but it seems unnecessarily complicated to have lots of different types of schools. Certainly seems a bit pointless having grammar and comps if there's no difference on attainment or social mobility.

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Build more Grammar Schools on 13:33 - Oct 20 with 5832 viewsMarshalls_Mullet

Build more Grammar Schools on 12:34 - Oct 20 by lowhouseblue

all the data shows that grammar schools are hugely socially selective.


Hmmm.

But its probably also the case the kids from more stable, wealthier back grounds will also have the benefit of having better genes, role models and environment to benefit from so will generally perform better in school.

I imagine the top performers / sets in most schools are from the more privileged back grounds. Any selection on the basis of ability is therefore likely to be socially selective.

Where i grew up (with a grammar school system), it was a very rural area, there wasnt a huge divide been the richest and poorest. There was relatively little poverty in the area, and relatively few super wealthy.

I guess in more urban areas, there probably is more of a social split, and the grammar schools are probably historically located in the nicer areas.

Poll: Would Lambert have acheived better results than Cook if given the same resources

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Build more Grammar Schools on 13:47 - Oct 20 with 5815 viewsMarshalls_Mullet

Build more Grammar Schools on 11:38 - Oct 20 by BOjK

Nonsense. We should abolish the existing grammar schools. Divisive, give overall worse outcomes, reduce social mobility and completely screw over late-bloomers.


More interestingly though (at least to me) I've long thought that this hides a bigger problem. Either grammar schools are better or they are worse. Either splitting the school cohorts at age 11 into two groups by academic ability increases social mobility and overall attainment or it doesn't. And it is easy to find out which it is.

And if grammar schools are better we should have them all across the country. And if they are worse they should be abolished. Either we are letting down 95% of the children in this country or we are letting down 5% and whichever it is we should fix it.


Thats the same old argument, but heres a proposition...

What if the new grammar schools were built in a poorer demographic area?

Whenever grammar schools are raised, people love to write them off as elitist. But if they were selecting from an area that had say 3 poor to average comps, maybe the grammar would give some of these poorer kids a chance of a better education and learning environment.

Most arguments against grammar schools are based on those that were established over 100 years ago.

Poll: Would Lambert have acheived better results than Cook if given the same resources

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Build more Grammar Schools on 14:02 - Oct 20 with 5799 viewsMarshalls_Mullet

Build more Grammar Schools on 11:58 - Oct 20 by BorisOrTrevor

Norfolk also has most number of people with 6 fingers.


Is that as a result of farming accidents?

Why have so many people lost two fingers?

Poll: Would Lambert have acheived better results than Cook if given the same resources

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Build more Grammar Schools on 15:26 - Oct 20 with 5757 viewssoupytwist

Build more Grammar Schools on 12:30 - Oct 20 by meekreech

Having been educated at a grammar school I can give a fairly clear opinion on the benefits of grammar school education. At the one that I attended the pupils covered the complete spectrum of backgrounds, some the sons of manual workers , some the sons of professional and privileged families. It made no difference to the treatment or opportunities they received and no barriers to their future prospects were in place . The majority of my contemporaries went on to successful careers in their chosen professions . Having seen the outcome of the comprehensive system of education it is apparent to me that standards are now so much lower as children now no longer receive a proper education with subjects being cut and reduced in range! I am able to show this in the knowledge that the subject matter is being eroded. My son was having trouble with a couple of his " A " levels. I asked if I could help but he felt I had not studied them and could not help . When I looked at the problems I was shocked to find that the subject matter was dealt with by my school in the first year of " O " levels in the third year !


When was that if you don't mind me asking? I too was educated at grammar school, the son of a low to medium ranking police officer and local authority clerical worker.

My daughter is now at a grammar school and while the pupils are treated the same irrespective of their background, I do not think that they come from as broad a selection of social backgrounds as when I was at a similar school.
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Build more Grammar Schools on 15:31 - Oct 20 with 5747 viewsblue_oyster

For the haters of TWTD, I completely agree. Grammar schools were a success story of the working class, before they were cynically destroyed by the Labour government.

Conventional wisdom is the enemy of thought.
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Build more Grammar Schools on 16:05 - Oct 20 with 5705 viewsFather_Jack

My grammar school experience was not an enjoyable one. Interestingly my old school keeps making the news - for the wrong reasons. Head suspended I see today.

https://www.theguardian.com/education/2017/oct/19/head-of-grammar-school-that-ex

Less is more.

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