| Were bomber command war criminals 21:29 - Jun 24 with 12499 views | gtsb |
BBC4 now. Time watch on WW2. Showed a programme from the 70's/early 80's where a panel, including Germans, were debating this. The German argument was that civilians were killed and one British pilot who took part in the raid said that the civilians of Dresden were the people making the armaments that were killing allied soldiers and civilians so the raids were legitimate. Another commentator has said that WW2 was total war so it was legitimate. I can understand the views of those who witnessed or took part in it though and can understand the fors and against. It's fascinating that the debate still rages on today. |  | | |  |
| Were bomber command war criminals on 22:10 - Jun 24 with 5457 views | MattinLondon |
Pardon my ignorance but at the time were the raids controversial? |  | | |
| Were bomber command war criminals on 22:22 - Jun 24 with 5450 views | factual_blue |
| Were bomber command war criminals on 22:10 - Jun 24 by MattinLondon |
Pardon my ignorance but at the time were the raids controversial? |
Censorship and propaganda meant most people were going to be unaware at the time of the impact of the raids on Dresden and Hamburg and many other German cities. In simple terms the intensity of the bombing caused the air itself to catch fire. The deaths must have been unimaginably horrible.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Firestorm#City_firestorms
A war crime? Well, only the defeated are ever guilty of those. |  |
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| Were bomber command war criminals on 23:50 - Jun 24 with 5348 views | WeWereZombies |
| Were bomber command war criminals on 22:10 - Jun 24 by MattinLondon |
Pardon my ignorance but at the time were the raids controversial? |
P.106 of 'Churchill's Ministry of Ungentlemanly Warfare', Giles Milton, John Murray (Publishers), 2017
...the Royal Air Force had undertaken its heaviest bombardment to date on Nazi Germany, dropping 'load after load of high explosives and incendiaries' on to the cities of Hamburg and Bremen. The raid had come at a high cost: eleven bombers had crashed or been shot down and no one could be certain if the bombs had hit their target. Clarke, like Gubbins', had long believed that bombing was a blunt-edged weapon, one that killed more civilians than soldiers.'
Colin Gubbins was the man most credited with the formation of the Special Operations Executive (forerunner of the SAS), there was a covert military argument against area bombing that Churchill had to evaluate against the claims of Arthur Harris to go ahead with it.
The Bishop of Chichester was the most outspoken critic of the tactic from a moral point of view at the time, and findings from the Mass Observation project also showed a surprising desire from the majority of Londoners not to put German civilians through what they had endured during the Blitz. |  |
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| Were bomber command war criminals on 23:57 - Jun 24 with 5338 views | jjblue84 |
I think it was Bomber Harris who said
If you bomb the German factories they will rebuild them in 6 weeks.
Bomb the people and they won’t be back for at least 16 years.
Always something to remember when Britain gets on its high horse about war crimes in the Middle East to get the gullible public to back another Western intervention... |  | | |
| Were bomber command war criminals on 07:32 - Jun 25 with 5184 views | HARRY10 |
| Were bomber command war criminals on 23:50 - Jun 24 by WeWereZombies |
P.106 of 'Churchill's Ministry of Ungentlemanly Warfare', Giles Milton, John Murray (Publishers), 2017
...the Royal Air Force had undertaken its heaviest bombardment to date on Nazi Germany, dropping 'load after load of high explosives and incendiaries' on to the cities of Hamburg and Bremen. The raid had come at a high cost: eleven bombers had crashed or been shot down and no one could be certain if the bombs had hit their target. Clarke, like Gubbins', had long believed that bombing was a blunt-edged weapon, one that killed more civilians than soldiers.'
Colin Gubbins was the man most credited with the formation of the Special Operations Executive (forerunner of the SAS), there was a covert military argument against area bombing that Churchill had to evaluate against the claims of Arthur Harris to go ahead with it.
The Bishop of Chichester was the most outspoken critic of the tactic from a moral point of view at the time, and findings from the Mass Observation project also showed a surprising desire from the majority of Londoners not to put German civilians through what they had endured during the Blitz. |
"Colin Gubbins was the man most credited with the formation of the Special Operations Executive (forerunner of the SAS)"
eh ?
SOE was up and running before Gubbins joined them
SOE were not the fore runners of the SAS, if only that he later were a military unit. SOE were not.
Neither did SOE attack military targets direct, and they had no connection. |  | | |
| Were bomber command war criminals on 08:27 - Jun 25 with 5152 views | unstableblue |
I think the majority of the RAFs bombing actions in WW2 were just war actions; and therefore ‘justified’ focussedon factories and supply lines.
Dresden was Bomber commands Hiroshima in some respects - it killed an estimated 135,000 mainly civilians (25,000 is often now quoted as the minimum), as opposed to 125,000 in Japan. But of course the after effects of a nuclear attack are long lasting. However did cause a fire storm eight miles square. But the shame of Dresden is that was intended to break the German people, like the Japanese, and was not a military tactic:
“Dresden was a beautiful Baroque city known as the Florence of the north. It had no war industry and little military value. Its population of 630,000 had been doubled by German refugees, mainly peasants from Silesia fleeing the Red Army.”
Why I think it was truly questionable is that Hitler was a psychopath, his doodlebugs perhaps justified an all out civilian attack on Germany civilians, but were limited with 6,000 deaths, but Hitler didn’t care about his civilians or troops, he was mad, and unlike Japan the war was all but over with Berlin being closed in upon.
Whether it was justifiable is open for debate, but will always be controversial.
Of course our RAF service men’s efforts during WW2 were heroic and amazing, and they knew little of the targets impact. But to be singing songs about WW2 and RAF bombers 70+ years later is just frickin sad. And this little Englander mentality... some misty eyed crap over Empire when we should be positioning ourselves as the worlds creative, design/build, progressive and liberal minded powerhouse is just so feckin worrying.
Brexit the green eyed monster offspring of this rear view mirror mentality. [Post edited 25 Jun 2018 10:43]
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| Were bomber command war criminals on 08:30 - Jun 25 with 5124 views | GlasgowBlue |
The bombing of Dresden was no more a war crime than the bombing of civilians in Coventry or London. We were at war using very blunt instruments.
Neither sides observed the niceties we do now in trying to minimise civilian casualties by firing precisio guided missiles from the comfort and safety of an office and a computer. [Post edited 25 Jun 2018 8:31]
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| Were bomber command war criminals on 08:33 - Jun 25 with 5114 views | WeWereZombies |
| Were bomber command war criminals on 07:32 - Jun 25 by HARRY10 |
"Colin Gubbins was the man most credited with the formation of the Special Operations Executive (forerunner of the SAS)"
eh ?
SOE was up and running before Gubbins joined them
SOE were not the fore runners of the SAS, if only that he later were a military unit. SOE were not.
Neither did SOE attack military targets direct, and they had no connection. |
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Colin_Gubbins
Try and have a read of 'Churchill's Ministry of Ungentlemanly Warfare', even if you disagree with every single word of it you should still enjoy a damn good set of tales of derring-do. Harry Ree is my new World War II hero. | |
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| Were bomber command war criminals on 09:00 - Jun 25 with 5070 views | WeWereZombies |
| Were bomber command war criminals on 08:30 - Jun 25 by GlasgowBlue |
The bombing of Dresden was no more a war crime than the bombing of civilians in Coventry or London. We were at war using very blunt instruments.
Neither sides observed the niceties we do now in trying to minimise civilian casualties by firing precisio guided missiles from the comfort and safety of an office and a computer. [Post edited 25 Jun 2018 8:31]
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But isn't the gist of this conversation a judgement of what is allowable under jus in bello? Reducing the matter to tit for tat demeans our War Cabinet. | |
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| Were bomber command war criminals on 09:02 - Jun 25 with 5062 views | GlasgowBlue |
| Were bomber command war criminals on 09:00 - Jun 25 by WeWereZombies |
But isn't the gist of this conversation a judgement of what is allowable under jus in bello? Reducing the matter to tit for tat demeans our War Cabinet. |
I dint think The German bombing of Coventry or London was a war crime. They were strategic targets.
The law states “People and property that do not contribute to the war effort should be protected against unnecessary destruction and hardship”. It can be argued the the people working in Dresden were contributing t the war effort as the majority were employed to do so. [Post edited 25 Jun 2018 9:08]
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| Were bomber command war criminals on 09:26 - Jun 25 with 5044 views | WeWereZombies |
| Were bomber command war criminals on 09:02 - Jun 25 by GlasgowBlue |
I dint think The German bombing of Coventry or London was a war crime. They were strategic targets.
The law states “People and property that do not contribute to the war effort should be protected against unnecessary destruction and hardship”. It can be argued the the people working in Dresden were contributing t the war effort as the majority were employed to do so. [Post edited 25 Jun 2018 9:08]
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Maybe you should be engaging with UnstableBlue on these points. There seems to be a difference in judgement on the civilian demographic in Dresden. | |
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| Were bomber command war criminals on 10:19 - Jun 25 with 5006 views | Guthrum |
| Were bomber command war criminals on 08:27 - Jun 25 by unstableblue |
I think the majority of the RAFs bombing actions in WW2 were just war actions; and therefore ‘justified’ focussedon factories and supply lines.
Dresden was Bomber commands Hiroshima in some respects - it killed an estimated 135,000 mainly civilians (25,000 is often now quoted as the minimum), as opposed to 125,000 in Japan. But of course the after effects of a nuclear attack are long lasting. However did cause a fire storm eight miles square. But the shame of Dresden is that was intended to break the German people, like the Japanese, and was not a military tactic:
“Dresden was a beautiful Baroque city known as the Florence of the north. It had no war industry and little military value. Its population of 630,000 had been doubled by German refugees, mainly peasants from Silesia fleeing the Red Army.”
Why I think it was truly questionable is that Hitler was a psychopath, his doodlebugs perhaps justified an all out civilian attack on Germany civilians, but were limited with 6,000 deaths, but Hitler didn’t care about his civilians or troops, he was mad, and unlike Japan the war was all but over with Berlin being closed in upon.
Whether it was justifiable is open for debate, but will always be controversial.
Of course our RAF service men’s efforts during WW2 were heroic and amazing, and they knew little of the targets impact. But to be singing songs about WW2 and RAF bombers 70+ years later is just frickin sad. And this little Englander mentality... some misty eyed crap over Empire when we should be positioning ourselves as the worlds creative, design/build, progressive and liberal minded powerhouse is just so feckin worrying.
Brexit the green eyed monster offspring of this rear view mirror mentality. [Post edited 25 Jun 2018 10:43]
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Dresden was also a major strategic transport hub at the junction between the northern and southern sections of the German Eastern Front, a regional administrative capital, industrial centre and defended city which held out until the very end of the war.
All bombing raids on cities (by both sides) were intended to break the spirit of the civilian population and inhibit their ability to support the war effort through industrial work. Coventry had a major concentration of motor factories, Hamburg a large port and so on.
Also, figures such as that for civilian deaths caused by the Dresden raid are highly questionable, being based largely on German propaganda of the time. Modern assessments give numbers closer to 20,000. |  |
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| Were bomber command war criminals on 10:25 - Jun 25 with 5001 views | WeWereZombies |
| Were bomber command war criminals on 10:19 - Jun 25 by Guthrum |
Dresden was also a major strategic transport hub at the junction between the northern and southern sections of the German Eastern Front, a regional administrative capital, industrial centre and defended city which held out until the very end of the war.
All bombing raids on cities (by both sides) were intended to break the spirit of the civilian population and inhibit their ability to support the war effort through industrial work. Coventry had a major concentration of motor factories, Hamburg a large port and so on.
Also, figures such as that for civilian deaths caused by the Dresden raid are highly questionable, being based largely on German propaganda of the time. Modern assessments give numbers closer to 20,000. |
But 20,000 is hardly insignificant, would you accept an argument that warring nations could have done, and in the present conflicts should do, more to assign an area of battle to vicinities with minimal civilian presence? Admittedly this would engage UN forces in near impossible tasks of eradication of human shields and other tactical deviousness. | |
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| Were bomber command war criminals on 10:28 - Jun 25 with 4996 views | unstableblue |
| Were bomber command war criminals on 09:26 - Jun 25 by WeWereZombies |
Maybe you should be engaging with UnstableBlue on these points. There seems to be a difference in judgement on the civilian demographic in Dresden. |
Bit simplistic to compare Coventry to Dresden.
Whilst Coventry broke the 'rules of war' by targeting civilian areas, the vast majority of that raids was factory based bombing. With 70+ factories hit. But 2,300 homes destroyed and 568 people killed is not the scale of Dresden. Dresden estimates range from 25,000 to 305,000 to 600,000 dead.
It was also the bombing method employed: "dropping large amounts of high-explosive to blow off the roofs to expose the timbers within buildings, followed by incendiary devices (fire-sticks) to ignite them and then more high-explosives to hamper the efforts of the fire services. This eventually created a self-sustaining firestorm with temperatures peaking at over 1,500 °C. After the area caught fire, the air above the bombed area became extremely hot and rose rapidly. Cold air then rushed in at ground level from the outside and people were sucked into the fire."
I believe Dresden could be seen as strategic target mainly because of the rail lines. But not sure the volume and approach to bombing was in anyway justified.
Of course the main point is this - Hitler and Nazi Germany was an evil aggressor. And deploying tactics as inhumane - if not worse - than the Nazis is often quoted as the main concern about Dresden, and diminished the 'good war' (if there can ever be such a thing) of the Allied victory in Europe, much as the US's efforts in the Pacific were tarnished by the use of the A-Bomb.
All very complex. But past history; Germany is a very different place and a very different people and admirable ethos. Whilst as a nation we should be proud of our military past, and our pluckiness and drive in that era is what defines us as a people, dwelling on the WW2 victory, vocalising it at football matches and in pubs it just poor..... and again detracts on the need for us to have a new vision to be successful in a crazily fast changing world. [Post edited 25 Jun 2018 10:42]
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| Were bomber command war criminals on 10:34 - Jun 25 with 4974 views | Guthrum |
Depends what you mean by a "war crime".
The Hague Convention of 1899 specifically prohibited the dropping of projectiles and explosives from baloons and other aerial vehicles. Altho the UK never ratified that provision, it did do so for a similar, but provisionally time-limited, element of the 1907 Convention. However, by 1939 there was a vast mass of precedent whereby many nations had ignored those provisions (especially during the First World War).
The Conventions also prohibited attacking undefended civilian locations. However, most cities in 1939-45 were not, with heavy concentrations of anti-aircraft artillery, plus fighter 'planes based nearby.
What the Hague Conventions did not address (because it was not obvious as an issue at the time) was the status of factories far behind the lines producing munitions and other military supplies, or those working in those places. Do they count as part of the overall war effort (and thus become legitimate targets), or ought they to be protected as technically non-combatants? | |
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| Were bomber command war criminals on 10:40 - Jun 25 with 4968 views | WeWereZombies |
| Were bomber command war criminals on 10:28 - Jun 25 by unstableblue |
Bit simplistic to compare Coventry to Dresden.
Whilst Coventry broke the 'rules of war' by targeting civilian areas, the vast majority of that raids was factory based bombing. With 70+ factories hit. But 2,300 homes destroyed and 568 people killed is not the scale of Dresden. Dresden estimates range from 25,000 to 305,000 to 600,000 dead.
It was also the bombing method employed: "dropping large amounts of high-explosive to blow off the roofs to expose the timbers within buildings, followed by incendiary devices (fire-sticks) to ignite them and then more high-explosives to hamper the efforts of the fire services. This eventually created a self-sustaining firestorm with temperatures peaking at over 1,500 °C. After the area caught fire, the air above the bombed area became extremely hot and rose rapidly. Cold air then rushed in at ground level from the outside and people were sucked into the fire."
I believe Dresden could be seen as strategic target mainly because of the rail lines. But not sure the volume and approach to bombing was in anyway justified.
Of course the main point is this - Hitler and Nazi Germany was an evil aggressor. And deploying tactics as inhumane - if not worse - than the Nazis is often quoted as the main concern about Dresden, and diminished the 'good war' (if there can ever be such a thing) of the Allied victory in Europe, much as the US's efforts in the Pacific were tarnished by the use of the A-Bomb.
All very complex. But past history; Germany is a very different place and a very different people and admirable ethos. Whilst as a nation we should be proud of our military past, and our pluckiness and drive in that era is what defines us as a people, dwelling on the WW2 victory, vocalising it at football matches and in pubs it just poor..... and again detracts on the need for us to have a new vision to be successful in a crazily fast changing world. [Post edited 25 Jun 2018 10:42]
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A couple of points:
The Luftwaffe were using incendiary devices right from the start of the Blitz, the RAF were to a great extent copying the execution and intent.
It is difficult to know the extent to which the Luftwaffe intended to target civilians during the first raid on Coventry because the beam deflector project was up and running but far from perfectly (later it would confuse the Luftwaffe to the extent that they bombed Dublin by mistake).
Also, by way of balance, being part of a bomber crew was no bed of roses:
The Death of the Ball Turret Gunner by Randall Jarrell
From my mother’s sleep I fell into the State,
And I hunched in its belly till my wet fur froze.
Six miles from earth, loosed from its dream of life,
I woke to black flak and the nightmare fighters.
When I died they washed me out of the turret with a hose.
[Post edited 25 Jun 2018 10:57]
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| Were bomber command war criminals on 10:44 - Jun 25 with 4967 views | Guthrum |
| Were bomber command war criminals on 10:25 - Jun 25 by WeWereZombies |
But 20,000 is hardly insignificant, would you accept an argument that warring nations could have done, and in the present conflicts should do, more to assign an area of battle to vicinities with minimal civilian presence? Admittedly this would engage UN forces in near impossible tasks of eradication of human shields and other tactical deviousness. |
I've just posted a longer answer to the OP, in which I raise the question as to what extent those working in war industries, thus directly supporting and supplying the military effort, can be separated from those actually fighting on the front lines.
Is it even possible to geographically limit the zones of conflict in modern warfare?
This is an issue which only really comes to the fore in extended, widespread conflicts where entire nations are geared to the war effort. It has never been adequately addressed in any kind of international forum. Both technology and the scale of warfare have moved on a long way since 1899 and 1907. | |
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| Were bomber command war criminals on 10:58 - Jun 25 with 4946 views | Guthrum |
| Were bomber command war criminals on 10:28 - Jun 25 by unstableblue |
Bit simplistic to compare Coventry to Dresden.
Whilst Coventry broke the 'rules of war' by targeting civilian areas, the vast majority of that raids was factory based bombing. With 70+ factories hit. But 2,300 homes destroyed and 568 people killed is not the scale of Dresden. Dresden estimates range from 25,000 to 305,000 to 600,000 dead.
It was also the bombing method employed: "dropping large amounts of high-explosive to blow off the roofs to expose the timbers within buildings, followed by incendiary devices (fire-sticks) to ignite them and then more high-explosives to hamper the efforts of the fire services. This eventually created a self-sustaining firestorm with temperatures peaking at over 1,500 °C. After the area caught fire, the air above the bombed area became extremely hot and rose rapidly. Cold air then rushed in at ground level from the outside and people were sucked into the fire."
I believe Dresden could be seen as strategic target mainly because of the rail lines. But not sure the volume and approach to bombing was in anyway justified.
Of course the main point is this - Hitler and Nazi Germany was an evil aggressor. And deploying tactics as inhumane - if not worse - than the Nazis is often quoted as the main concern about Dresden, and diminished the 'good war' (if there can ever be such a thing) of the Allied victory in Europe, much as the US's efforts in the Pacific were tarnished by the use of the A-Bomb.
All very complex. But past history; Germany is a very different place and a very different people and admirable ethos. Whilst as a nation we should be proud of our military past, and our pluckiness and drive in that era is what defines us as a people, dwelling on the WW2 victory, vocalising it at football matches and in pubs it just poor..... and again detracts on the need for us to have a new vision to be successful in a crazily fast changing world. [Post edited 25 Jun 2018 10:42]
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I don't think scale can really be used as an argument in moral debates about the ethics of bombing.
The Germans would certainly have wanted to inflict the same destruction on British cities as the RAF later did on their own, if they posessed the technology and equipment to do so in 1940. Nor should that be a reason for the British to limit the scale of air raids later on. After all, the whole aim of war is to inflict maximum loss on the enemy while minimising one's own casualties.
Both Germany and Japan were working on nuclear weapons before and during the War. I have no doubt whatsoever they would have used them if developed in time.
The real problem is that war itself is an insane thing. A brutal, existential struggle upon which it is virtually impossible to impose rules. They will always be bent or broken by whichever side thinks they can snatch an advantage or avoid defeat.
Which is why the primary charge on the sheet at Nuremburg was that of starting the war. | |
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| Were bomber command war criminals on 11:04 - Jun 25 with 4934 views | WeWereZombies |
| Were bomber command war criminals on 10:44 - Jun 25 by Guthrum |
I've just posted a longer answer to the OP, in which I raise the question as to what extent those working in war industries, thus directly supporting and supplying the military effort, can be separated from those actually fighting on the front lines.
Is it even possible to geographically limit the zones of conflict in modern warfare?
This is an issue which only really comes to the fore in extended, widespread conflicts where entire nations are geared to the war effort. It has never been adequately addressed in any kind of international forum. Both technology and the scale of warfare have moved on a long way since 1899 and 1907. |
Well, exactly. In furtherance, do we as the electorate have a duty to examine the intent of political candidates and reject those who are likely to fall below honourable conduct in decisions regarding combat? To put it crudely, if we elect warmongers why should we be surprised at being regarded as de facto combatants? [Post edited 25 Jun 2018 11:09]
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| Were bomber command war criminals on 11:18 - Jun 25 with 4918 views | Guthrum |
| Were bomber command war criminals on 11:04 - Jun 25 by WeWereZombies |
Well, exactly. In furtherance, do we as the electorate have a duty to examine the intent of political candidates and reject those who are likely to fall below honourable conduct in decisions regarding combat? To put it crudely, if we elect warmongers why should we be surprised at being regarded as de facto combatants? [Post edited 25 Jun 2018 11:09]
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Indeed, altho it can sometimes be difficult to tell who is liable to get the country involved in a war and who isn't. After all, conflict can be entered into with the best of intentions, but still turn out very badly. | |
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| Were bomber command war criminals on 11:24 - Jun 25 with 4912 views | HennikerBlu |
| Were bomber command war criminals on 23:50 - Jun 24 by WeWereZombies |
P.106 of 'Churchill's Ministry of Ungentlemanly Warfare', Giles Milton, John Murray (Publishers), 2017
...the Royal Air Force had undertaken its heaviest bombardment to date on Nazi Germany, dropping 'load after load of high explosives and incendiaries' on to the cities of Hamburg and Bremen. The raid had come at a high cost: eleven bombers had crashed or been shot down and no one could be certain if the bombs had hit their target. Clarke, like Gubbins', had long believed that bombing was a blunt-edged weapon, one that killed more civilians than soldiers.'
Colin Gubbins was the man most credited with the formation of the Special Operations Executive (forerunner of the SAS), there was a covert military argument against area bombing that Churchill had to evaluate against the claims of Arthur Harris to go ahead with it.
The Bishop of Chichester was the most outspoken critic of the tactic from a moral point of view at the time, and findings from the Mass Observation project also showed a surprising desire from the majority of Londoners not to put German civilians through what they had endured during the Blitz. |
Just a small point the SOE was not the forerunner of the SAS, the SOE has a closer relationship to SIS and MI6.
The SAS nearly always operated in uniform, SOE operated more as a subversive, clandestine and some consider terrorist type organisation. The SAS was formed by David Stirling. | | | |
| Were bomber command war criminals on 11:25 - Jun 25 with 4914 views | Guthrum |
| Were bomber command war criminals on 11:06 - Jun 25 by unstableblue |
Completely agree my point about incendiary devices was misleading - as it was not standard practice; but it was what these devices were being dropped on. Which was primarily the centre of the city (populous area) versus periphery industrial.
I think the RAF targeted a complete destruction of the city.... which you could maybe justify as the rail lines ran through it. But the volume of bombing was intense.
I believe that the majority of the cities air defences had also been moved to the Eastern front.
Worth a view of some photos:
War is sh!t, and perhaps Dresden is justifiable. But my main point is the way many English cling onto elements of it in such detail - rather than just as a glorious HISTORICAL endeavour - is sad. |
Yes, should have added I completely agree about the stupidity of singing inflammatory songs against the Germans now. Especially for Town fans given our links with Fortuna (both places having suffered bombing raids during the War). | |
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| Were bomber command war criminals on 11:39 - Jun 25 with 4895 views | WeWereZombies |
| Were bomber command war criminals on 11:24 - Jun 25 by HennikerBlu |
Just a small point the SOE was not the forerunner of the SAS, the SOE has a closer relationship to SIS and MI6.
The SAS nearly always operated in uniform, SOE operated more as a subversive, clandestine and some consider terrorist type organisation. The SAS was formed by David Stirling. |
Well at least you are not denying Gubbins his crucial rôle (alongside Millis Jefferis and Stuart MacRae), before SOE there was MI(R)c, Section D and MDI with Cecil Clarke beavering away in his shed in Bedford at a variety of bombs, mines and fuses rather than caravans.
This milieu also recruited Eric Sykes and William Fairburn as instructors at Arisaig House, the beginning of commando training during World War II, so there is a decent grounding for Britain's elite forces there. | |
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