| Another one that got away - Will he actually make it into the 1st team. on 21:40 - Feb 19 with 3823 views | yorkshire |
Nothing we could have done - and nothing we can do in the future
Doesn't his brother? still play for us in the lower age groups |  | |  |
| Another one that got away - Will he actually make it into the 1st team. on 08:20 - Feb 20 with 3472 views | christiand |
I'm wondering if the worm is slowly turning? Yes, the trappings of the financial side and kudos must be tempting at such a young age and for their parents, but you have to question where's the progress of these youngsters into their respective clubs' first teams? Chelsea and Manchester City are the envy of most academies across the country, but their success rate is minimal especially with the amount of quality, young players they sign. Both clubs expect success immediately, so don't have the time to nurture the young talent therefore bring in the big names that are already experienced and ready to play at a high level, pushing the fledglings further down the pecking order.
I just wonder if more youngsters will turn down such offers, show a bit of patience better assess the bigger picture and the impact on their professional career and their personal ambition? Chelsea's Loftus-Cheek a case in point, has played a total of 58 professional games in a 5 year senior career at Chelsea and Crystal Palace. Surely, this is stifling his potential and development? [Post edited 20 Feb 2019 8:23]
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| Another one that got away - Will he actually make it into the 1st team. on 08:31 - Feb 20 with 3425 views | tcblue |
Regardless of chances of breaking through, we have to accept that there are other things - better infrastructure, I daresay better coaching - which, if we take our emotional bond with the club out of the equation, makes sense for a young players career. | | | |
| Another one that got away - Will he actually make it into the 1st team. on 08:32 - Feb 20 with 3415 views | sparks |
| Another one that got away - Will he actually make it into the 1st team. on 08:20 - Feb 20 by christiand |
I'm wondering if the worm is slowly turning? Yes, the trappings of the financial side and kudos must be tempting at such a young age and for their parents, but you have to question where's the progress of these youngsters into their respective clubs' first teams? Chelsea and Manchester City are the envy of most academies across the country, but their success rate is minimal especially with the amount of quality, young players they sign. Both clubs expect success immediately, so don't have the time to nurture the young talent therefore bring in the big names that are already experienced and ready to play at a high level, pushing the fledglings further down the pecking order.
I just wonder if more youngsters will turn down such offers, show a bit of patience better assess the bigger picture and the impact on their professional career and their personal ambition? Chelsea's Loftus-Cheek a case in point, has played a total of 58 professional games in a 5 year senior career at Chelsea and Crystal Palace. Surely, this is stifling his potential and development? [Post edited 20 Feb 2019 8:23]
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Why would they?
They can take a gamble on making it with a club like Town. Or they can take a gamble on making it massive, with a big academy and, in the process, earn enough money to set them for life if they fail... |  |
| The presence of those seeking the truth is infinitely to be preferred to the presence of those who think they've found it.
(Sir Terry Pratchett) | | Poll: | Is Fred drunk this morning? |
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| Another one that got away - Will he actually make it into the 1st team. on 08:40 - Feb 20 with 3392 views | tractorboy1978 |
| Another one that got away - Will he actually make it into the 1st team. on 08:20 - Feb 20 by christiand |
I'm wondering if the worm is slowly turning? Yes, the trappings of the financial side and kudos must be tempting at such a young age and for their parents, but you have to question where's the progress of these youngsters into their respective clubs' first teams? Chelsea and Manchester City are the envy of most academies across the country, but their success rate is minimal especially with the amount of quality, young players they sign. Both clubs expect success immediately, so don't have the time to nurture the young talent therefore bring in the big names that are already experienced and ready to play at a high level, pushing the fledglings further down the pecking order.
I just wonder if more youngsters will turn down such offers, show a bit of patience better assess the bigger picture and the impact on their professional career and their personal ambition? Chelsea's Loftus-Cheek a case in point, has played a total of 58 professional games in a 5 year senior career at Chelsea and Crystal Palace. Surely, this is stifling his potential and development? [Post edited 20 Feb 2019 8:23]
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He’s been playing at a far higher youth level at Chelsea than he would have here - against some of the best youngsters in Europe. He will be on more money than he would have been here and is likely earning more than Nydam (one of his peers here) for example. And look at Nydam’s progress this season - non existent. | | | |
| Another one that got away - Will he actually make it into the 1st team. on 08:42 - Feb 20 with 3381 views | christiand |
| Another one that got away - Will he actually make it into the 1st team. on 08:32 - Feb 20 by sparks |
Why would they?
They can take a gamble on making it with a club like Town. Or they can take a gamble on making it massive, with a big academy and, in the process, earn enough money to set them for life if they fail... |
You've got more of a chance making it into the first team here or dare I say Norwich than at City or Chelsea, although I do understand your point of view Sparks. I'm only speaking personally, I'd want to be playing regularly in a first team that's where you are going to learn your trade and build your reputation, not playing in the U23 side. The money will come, if you prove you're good enough. Just think they jump too quickly because of the '£ note' and then get lost amongst the masses within their academies and don't fulfil their early potential. | |
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| Another one that got away - Will he actually make it into the 1st team. on 08:43 - Feb 20 with 3375 views | sparks |
| Another one that got away - Will he actually make it into the 1st team. on 08:40 - Feb 20 by tractorboy1978 |
He’s been playing at a far higher youth level at Chelsea than he would have here - against some of the best youngsters in Europe. He will be on more money than he would have been here and is likely earning more than Nydam (one of his peers here) for example. And look at Nydam’s progress this season - non existent. |
Indeed. The closed shop of prem academies (and the frankly dishonest way in which they bar clubs like ours from access to that world) means that there is very little incentive to stick around.
Even if they fail at Chelsea, there is every chance they get transferred back down to a Champ club for millions. | |
| The presence of those seeking the truth is infinitely to be preferred to the presence of those who think they've found it.
(Sir Terry Pratchett) | | Poll: | Is Fred drunk this morning? |
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| Another one that got away - Will he actually make it into the 1st team. on 08:48 - Feb 20 with 3354 views | christiand |
| Another one that got away - Will he actually make it into the 1st team. on 08:43 - Feb 20 by sparks |
Indeed. The closed shop of prem academies (and the frankly dishonest way in which they bar clubs like ours from access to that world) means that there is very little incentive to stick around.
Even if they fail at Chelsea, there is every chance they get transferred back down to a Champ club for millions. |
That would be an interesting stat, how many academy players released by Chelsea or Manchester City over the last 5 seasons are still playing professionally? | |
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| Another one that got away - Will he actually make it into the 1st team. on 08:49 - Feb 20 with 3352 views | itfcjoe |
| Another one that got away - Will he actually make it into the 1st team. on 08:42 - Feb 20 by christiand |
You've got more of a chance making it into the first team here or dare I say Norwich than at City or Chelsea, although I do understand your point of view Sparks. I'm only speaking personally, I'd want to be playing regularly in a first team that's where you are going to learn your trade and build your reputation, not playing in the U23 side. The money will come, if you prove you're good enough. Just think they jump too quickly because of the '£ note' and then get lost amongst the masses within their academies and don't fulfil their early potential. |
You've got more chance of making it as first teamer in the professional game from a big club like Chelsea than you do here though - if he fails here where does he go? Normally to college in the states or the Ryman League. He'd be on a 1 year contract, whereas at Chelsea he is on a 4 year deal -
He will likely go out on loan next year, and Chelsea will force the loaning club into an agreement to play regular minutes. If they don't they will be penalised financially and he will be returned and sent elsewhere.
Yes he may earn more money there than here too, but realistically is giving himself a far better chance of making it as a footballer - by the time his contract is up he will have a very attractive CV, because the reality is he won't make it at Chelsea - because no one does. |  |
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| Another one that got away - Will he actually make it into the 1st team. on 08:49 - Feb 20 with 3348 views | sparks |
| Another one that got away - Will he actually make it into the 1st team. on 08:48 - Feb 20 by christiand |
That would be an interesting stat, how many academy players released by Chelsea or Manchester City over the last 5 seasons are still playing professionally? |
Depends on the level and age group I suspect, but Chelsea sell on an awful lot of youth players for good money. [Post edited 20 Feb 2019 8:49]
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| The presence of those seeking the truth is infinitely to be preferred to the presence of those who think they've found it.
(Sir Terry Pratchett) | | Poll: | Is Fred drunk this morning? |
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| Another one that got away - Will he actually make it into the 1st team. on 08:52 - Feb 20 with 3336 views | itfcjoe |
| Another one that got away - Will he actually make it into the 1st team. on 08:20 - Feb 20 by christiand |
I'm wondering if the worm is slowly turning? Yes, the trappings of the financial side and kudos must be tempting at such a young age and for their parents, but you have to question where's the progress of these youngsters into their respective clubs' first teams? Chelsea and Manchester City are the envy of most academies across the country, but their success rate is minimal especially with the amount of quality, young players they sign. Both clubs expect success immediately, so don't have the time to nurture the young talent therefore bring in the big names that are already experienced and ready to play at a high level, pushing the fledglings further down the pecking order.
I just wonder if more youngsters will turn down such offers, show a bit of patience better assess the bigger picture and the impact on their professional career and their personal ambition? Chelsea's Loftus-Cheek a case in point, has played a total of 58 professional games in a 5 year senior career at Chelsea and Crystal Palace. Surely, this is stifling his potential and development? [Post edited 20 Feb 2019 8:23]
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Also the worm has turned now - but not in the way you speak about.
Players want to go abroad now, they are refusing to sign contracts that take them past a year as a pro, and forcing clubs into letting them move abroad - following Jadon Sancho's lead. Callum Hudson-Odoi will leave for Bayern, and will cost north of £25m - but if he fulfils his potential that will be cheap.
Sancho was £7-8m to Dortmund - he is worth 10 times that already. Young England players know that going abroad will get them more exposure and first team football than staying here - so they are now using the top academies for the fantastic coaching and opportunities in youth football then moving. | |
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| Another one that got away - Will he actually make it into the 1st team. on 09:12 - Feb 20 with 3256 views | WD19 |
| Another one that got away - Will he actually make it into the 1st team. on 08:32 - Feb 20 by sparks |
Why would they?
They can take a gamble on making it with a club like Town. Or they can take a gamble on making it massive, with a big academy and, in the process, earn enough money to set them for life if they fail... |
Exactly this. The higher up the ladder you go, the more rungs to fall on to on the way down.
Chances are a 'failed' Arsenal academy graduate will wind up at a another professional club at a lower level on the way down in any case. |  | | |
| Another one that got away - Will he actually make it into the 1st team. on 09:19 - Feb 20 with 3237 views | Basuco |
| Another one that got away - Will he actually make it into the 1st team. on 08:49 - Feb 20 by sparks |
Depends on the level and age group I suspect, but Chelsea sell on an awful lot of youth players for good money. [Post edited 20 Feb 2019 8:49]
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Which is exactly what they always intended to do, Man City and Chelsea use their academy systems as a source of income, get youngsters in, coach them up, mark up the price and move them on. |  | | |
| Another one that got away - Will he actually make it into the 1st team. on 09:22 - Feb 20 with 3221 views | sparks |
| Another one that got away - Will he actually make it into the 1st team. on 09:19 - Feb 20 by Basuco |
Which is exactly what they always intended to do, Man City and Chelsea use their academy systems as a source of income, get youngsters in, coach them up, mark up the price and move them on. |
Indeed- and they hoover up as many as possible to as to avoid missing the good ones. And the FA has actively conspired with them in this via the whole EPPP stuff and academy system. | |
| The presence of those seeking the truth is infinitely to be preferred to the presence of those who think they've found it.
(Sir Terry Pratchett) | | Poll: | Is Fred drunk this morning? |
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| Another one that got away - Will he actually make it into the 1st team. on 10:13 - Feb 20 with 3110 views | christiand |
| Another one that got away - Will he actually make it into the 1st team. on 08:49 - Feb 20 by itfcjoe |
You've got more chance of making it as first teamer in the professional game from a big club like Chelsea than you do here though - if he fails here where does he go? Normally to college in the states or the Ryman League. He'd be on a 1 year contract, whereas at Chelsea he is on a 4 year deal -
He will likely go out on loan next year, and Chelsea will force the loaning club into an agreement to play regular minutes. If they don't they will be penalised financially and he will be returned and sent elsewhere.
Yes he may earn more money there than here too, but realistically is giving himself a far better chance of making it as a footballer - by the time his contract is up he will have a very attractive CV, because the reality is he won't make it at Chelsea - because no one does. |
Appreciate there is always exceptions to the rule. Watched Southend United at the weekend and they had a 19 year old Nathan Bishop in goal, it was his 11th senior appearance. Now, if he was at Chelsea he'd be nowhere near playing first team football. They'd be playing their copious amount of internationals ahead of him before he got a sniff of first team action. In the meantime, he's building his reputation in the first team and will earn the Shrimpers a lot of money potentially in the future.
I'm certainly not dismissing what you are saying Joe and do comprehend your angle and what others have said of a similar vain. I'm probably looking at it from my own point of view. I'd rather go to a club who have a reputation of genuinely progressing their youngsters through to the first team and giving them that opportunity than just allowing them to stagnate, while picking up their money sitting on the sidelines. [Post edited 20 Feb 2019 10:15]
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| Another one that got away - Will he actually make it into the 1st team. on 10:17 - Feb 20 with 3093 views | Kieran_Knows |
| Another one that got away - Will he actually make it into the 1st team. on 08:52 - Feb 20 by itfcjoe |
Also the worm has turned now - but not in the way you speak about.
Players want to go abroad now, they are refusing to sign contracts that take them past a year as a pro, and forcing clubs into letting them move abroad - following Jadon Sancho's lead. Callum Hudson-Odoi will leave for Bayern, and will cost north of £25m - but if he fulfils his potential that will be cheap.
Sancho was £7-8m to Dortmund - he is worth 10 times that already. Young England players know that going abroad will get them more exposure and first team football than staying here - so they are now using the top academies for the fantastic coaching and opportunities in youth football then moving. |
Rabbi Matondo going to Schalke from City in January for £11m too (albeit he's Welsh). |  |
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| Another one that got away - Will he actually make it into the 1st team. on 10:24 - Feb 20 with 3051 views | sparks |
| Another one that got away - Will he actually make it into the 1st team. on 10:13 - Feb 20 by christiand |
Appreciate there is always exceptions to the rule. Watched Southend United at the weekend and they had a 19 year old Nathan Bishop in goal, it was his 11th senior appearance. Now, if he was at Chelsea he'd be nowhere near playing first team football. They'd be playing their copious amount of internationals ahead of him before he got a sniff of first team action. In the meantime, he's building his reputation in the first team and will earn the Shrimpers a lot of money potentially in the future.
I'm certainly not dismissing what you are saying Joe and do comprehend your angle and what others have said of a similar vain. I'm probably looking at it from my own point of view. I'd rather go to a club who have a reputation of genuinely progressing their youngsters through to the first team and giving them that opportunity than just allowing them to stagnate, while picking up their money sitting on the sidelines. [Post edited 20 Feb 2019 10:15]
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He'll be earning hundreds a week whilst his contemporaries are earning thousands. If he ends up at that level, he will never earn massively more. If his contemporaries end up playing for Southend, they will ahve a couple of million in the bank first. | |
| The presence of those seeking the truth is infinitely to be preferred to the presence of those who think they've found it.
(Sir Terry Pratchett) | | Poll: | Is Fred drunk this morning? |
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| Another one that got away - Will he actually make it into the 1st team. on 10:25 - Feb 20 with 3044 views | itfcjoe |
| Another one that got away - Will he actually make it into the 1st team. on 10:13 - Feb 20 by christiand |
Appreciate there is always exceptions to the rule. Watched Southend United at the weekend and they had a 19 year old Nathan Bishop in goal, it was his 11th senior appearance. Now, if he was at Chelsea he'd be nowhere near playing first team football. They'd be playing their copious amount of internationals ahead of him before he got a sniff of first team action. In the meantime, he's building his reputation in the first team and will earn the Shrimpers a lot of money potentially in the future.
I'm certainly not dismissing what you are saying Joe and do comprehend your angle and what others have said of a similar vain. I'm probably looking at it from my own point of view. I'd rather go to a club who have a reputation of genuinely progressing their youngsters through to the first team and giving them that opportunity than just allowing them to stagnate, while picking up their money sitting on the sidelines. [Post edited 20 Feb 2019 10:15]
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The difficulty is the clubs with a reputation can be very different to when you are there at 15 compared to being 19 and ready to play. If Southend stumble across a winning formula and end up in the Championship the youngsters will soon drop down the pecking order.
When Charlie Brown was here, he is a year younger than Ben Morris who was in England squads and being pushed on and Ben Folami. Would he have even kicked on here - and how many opportunities have they had?
There are so many moving parts, and I think the only mistakes are when they go somewhere and don't play at all - playing in the UEFA Youth League, or winning FA Youth Cups is never going to be a bad thing | |
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| Another one that got away - Will he actually make it into the 1st team. on 10:29 - Feb 20 with 3022 views | chicoazul |
| Another one that got away - Will he actually make it into the 1st team. on 08:42 - Feb 20 by christiand |
You've got more of a chance making it into the first team here or dare I say Norwich than at City or Chelsea, although I do understand your point of view Sparks. I'm only speaking personally, I'd want to be playing regularly in a first team that's where you are going to learn your trade and build your reputation, not playing in the U23 side. The money will come, if you prove you're good enough. Just think they jump too quickly because of the '£ note' and then get lost amongst the masses within their academies and don't fulfil their early potential. |
Imagine it's your boy though. He's at Ipswich and doing well and Chelsea or Man City or Liverpool wave a 20k a week contract for 4 years under their nose. I almost certainly would tell my son to take it as he would be set for life with a little bit of guidance (which I would happily give him for 10%, natch) |  |
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| Another one that got away - Will he actually make it into the 1st team. on 11:23 - Feb 20 with 2934 views | LeagueOne |
| Another one that got away - Will he actually make it into the 1st team. on 08:20 - Feb 20 by christiand |
I'm wondering if the worm is slowly turning? Yes, the trappings of the financial side and kudos must be tempting at such a young age and for their parents, but you have to question where's the progress of these youngsters into their respective clubs' first teams? Chelsea and Manchester City are the envy of most academies across the country, but their success rate is minimal especially with the amount of quality, young players they sign. Both clubs expect success immediately, so don't have the time to nurture the young talent therefore bring in the big names that are already experienced and ready to play at a high level, pushing the fledglings further down the pecking order.
I just wonder if more youngsters will turn down such offers, show a bit of patience better assess the bigger picture and the impact on their professional career and their personal ambition? Chelsea's Loftus-Cheek a case in point, has played a total of 58 professional games in a 5 year senior career at Chelsea and Crystal Palace. Surely, this is stifling his potential and development? [Post edited 20 Feb 2019 8:23]
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I don't know how true this is, but I was told by a Chelsea supporter that some parents are paying for agents and trying to buy their kids into top academies with the kids themselves not always being as great football wise as you would expect.
The clubs and agents don't care as it's all just income and their view is the cream always rises to the top anyway, so if they can get money for nothing from desperate people they'll take it. Where that may have a knock-on effect for us, and certainly explains why some of the players coming out of these big clubs academies aren't that good, is these players often get signed elsewhere based on having been at one of the top clubs.
It makes a mockery of the whole system. |  |
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| Another one that got away - Will he actually make it into the 1st team. on 13:23 - Feb 20 with 2781 views | christiand |
| Another one that got away - Will he actually make it into the 1st team. on 10:25 - Feb 20 by itfcjoe |
The difficulty is the clubs with a reputation can be very different to when you are there at 15 compared to being 19 and ready to play. If Southend stumble across a winning formula and end up in the Championship the youngsters will soon drop down the pecking order.
When Charlie Brown was here, he is a year younger than Ben Morris who was in England squads and being pushed on and Ben Folami. Would he have even kicked on here - and how many opportunities have they had?
There are so many moving parts, and I think the only mistakes are when they go somewhere and don't play at all - playing in the UEFA Youth League, or winning FA Youth Cups is never going to be a bad thing |
Or they can get sold on for a tidy profit, it can work the other way too. Regarding Nathan Bishop he looks a decent keeper and could play higher IMO. For every Folami and Morris you could also put in a Downes - 42 appearances, Lancaster - 11 appearances, Dozzell - 20 appearances, Bishop- 66 appearances or Kenlock - 41 appearances. They are starting to play first team football more regularly. I doubt Charlie Brown is any closer to making the first team at Chelsea from when he first signed. | |
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| Another one that got away - Will he actually make it into the 1st team. on 07:48 - Feb 21 with 2527 views | tractorboy1978 |
| Another one that got away - Will he actually make it into the 1st team. on 13:23 - Feb 20 by christiand |
Or they can get sold on for a tidy profit, it can work the other way too. Regarding Nathan Bishop he looks a decent keeper and could play higher IMO. For every Folami and Morris you could also put in a Downes - 42 appearances, Lancaster - 11 appearances, Dozzell - 20 appearances, Bishop- 66 appearances or Kenlock - 41 appearances. They are starting to play first team football more regularly. I doubt Charlie Brown is any closer to making the first team at Chelsea from when he first signed. |
Did he ever think he would make the Chelsea first team though?
Football is cut throat and it doesn’t take much for kids once thought of as promising to drop off the radar. Look at Nydam. | | | |
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