| Anybody Explain SNP 15:03 - Nov 9 with 4857 views | ClareBlue |
Just been listening to Nicola and am a bit lost..
As far as I can understand if you vote SNP they will try to prevent the UK leaving a political and trading union that has no geographical connection, no common language or culture and of which most member states have been at war with each other for the last two hundred years and of which the majority of the voting population voted to leave in a recent election.
When this is achieved they will try and withdraw Scotland from a political and trading union that has a common language, land borders and equality of representation and ensured propsperity and peace for two hundred years and which the majority of the voting population voted to stay in recently.
And then she started going on about Scotland being denied the democratic right of its people not to have a second referundum..
I am completely unable to reconcile anything that she was saying...
Is it because I am not Scottish? |  | | |  |
| Anybody Explain SNP on 15:23 - Nov 9 with 3759 views | factual_blue |
The longest period of peace in Europe has been since the EU and its predecessors have been in existence. The second longest was during the existence of the Concert of Europe in the 19th century.
In other words, co-operation works. |  |
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| Anybody Explain SNP on 15:33 - Nov 9 with 3722 views | cbower |
Don't think the majority of Scots voted to leave the EU (that's if I read you right. Yes, the majority of the UK did, but the SNP argument is exactly that. The Scots didn't! |  |
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| Anybody Explain SNP on 15:33 - Nov 9 with 3707 views | Nthsuffolkblue |
"of which most member states have been at war with each other for the last two hundred years and of which the majority of the voting population voted to leave in a recent election"
Little wonder you cannot understand the SNP!
1 Please name me 2 EU member states that have been at war with each other for the past 200 years, let alone most of them.
2 When was there an election of the majority of the EU voting population?
3 What do you think the country of Scotland will gain by the UK leaving the EU?
4 What do you think the country of Scotland will lose by the UK leaving the EU?
Your answers to 1 and 2 should show you the falsehood of your premise. Your answers to 3 and 4 should explain why the SNP are anti-Brexit. Perhaps you should also consider why a significant proportion of other UK MPs are against Brexit too. |  |
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| Anybody Explain SNP on 15:44 - Nov 9 with 3692 views | jeera |
| Anybody Explain SNP on 15:23 - Nov 9 by factual_blue |
The longest period of peace in Europe has been since the EU and its predecessors have been in existence. The second longest was during the existence of the Concert of Europe in the 19th century.
In other words, co-operation works. |
Was Geldof involved in that one? |  |
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| Anybody Explain SNP on 15:44 - Nov 9 with 3691 views | tractordownsouth |
I understand the SNP argument about wanting to remain in the EU due to the economic risk of leaving, but it doesn't really square with their belief in believing the UK..
I understand it a bit more now as it would likely allow them to retain their place in the EU, but it still isn't the most consistent approach. |  |
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| Anybody Explain SNP on 15:51 - Nov 9 with 3663 views | Swansea_Blue |
I think it' because you don't understnd the difference between the relationship of Scotland to the UK and the relationship of the UK with the EU. And you're also not aware that the Scotts overwhelmingly voted to stay in the EU. Being Scottish would help with both, so it could be that yeah. |  |
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| Anybody Explain SNP on 16:55 - Nov 9 with 3589 views | J2BLUE |
Your mistake is thinking that it's about the EU and not just an incredibly convenient way to push for independence. No doubt they would genuinely try and join the EU as an independent nation but it's mainly about independence. |  |
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| Anybody Explain SNP on 17:00 - Nov 9 with 3567 views | Herbivore |
It's not hard to understand. The SNP believe what is best for Scotland is for Scotland to be an independent nation within the EU. Being part of a UK outside the EU is the worst possible scenario for them and is a significant material change in what was promised to Scotland when they had their previous independence referendum. |  |
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| Anybody Explain SNP on 17:13 - Nov 9 with 3516 views | Churchman |
| Anybody Explain SNP on 15:23 - Nov 9 by factual_blue |
The longest period of peace in Europe has been since the EU and its predecessors have been in existence. The second longest was during the existence of the Concert of Europe in the 19th century.
In other words, co-operation works. |
Peace in Europe has been guaranteed by NATO, not the EU. Without NATO, Europe would today be within the USSRs sphere of influence, in my view. The EEC was created in 1957, 12 years after the end of WW2. Given the UK didn’t join the EEC for a further 15 years along with other countries, I think the impact of the EU on peace in Europe is a little overstated. |  | | |
| Anybody Explain SNP on 17:20 - Nov 9 with 3482 views | ClareBlue |
| Anybody Explain SNP on 16:55 - Nov 9 by J2BLUE |
Your mistake is thinking that it's about the EU and not just an incredibly convenient way to push for independence. No doubt they would genuinely try and join the EU as an independent nation but it's mainly about independence. |
Thank you for all the informed and freindly responses. I have no premise on this and did not vote in any vote as I live in Ireland. I was genuinely trying to see where she is coming from:
1. I appologies for inaccurate language in that of course I do not think any country has been at war for 200 hundred years - on and off between different countries, would have been a better use of language - I did find it strange that this had to be made a point as I would have thought it is fairly obvious what I meant. Ditto about the vote - of course I was talking about the UK voting population and I think that is how it reads, but no problem standing corrected.
My understanding it was a UK vote and Scotland are part of the UK and that was what gave them a mandate to vote at all, so why the emphasis on Scotland voting to remain? Can you pick and choose?
I know the factual history between England and Scotland but is this any worse than between other neighbouring European countries like Germany and Poland or Spain and France or even France and England, yet Scotland wants to leave a Union but another union, the EU, is seen as a stabling influence for the other countries.
Yes, I understand taking an opportunity to further your agenda when other events cause uncertainty. Historically this has been a successful strategy over the years and Nicola seems to be making no bones of this is an opportunity to push for what she believes in. What ever you think of the agenda at least she is straight up about it.
So if she gets her way then UK stay in EU and Scotland leave the UK. Does that mean that Scotland are not then in EU? Do then apply to get in and does what is left of UK, that Nicola kept in the EU have a veto? What happens then?
I think I'll stick to the Football and a nice glass of wine.
Any idea on how to get to Lincoln from Manchester airport? | | | |
| Anybody Explain SNP on 17:30 - Nov 9 with 3459 views | NotMarcusEvans |
The SNP are even fielding a candidate in Norwich apparently. |  | | |
| Anybody Explain SNP on 17:38 - Nov 9 with 3435 views | cbower |
| Anybody Explain SNP on 17:13 - Nov 9 by Churchman |
Peace in Europe has been guaranteed by NATO, not the EU. Without NATO, Europe would today be within the USSRs sphere of influence, in my view. The EEC was created in 1957, 12 years after the end of WW2. Given the UK didn’t join the EEC for a further 15 years along with other countries, I think the impact of the EU on peace in Europe is a little overstated. |
Quite surprised you didn't call it The Common Market to be honest. | |
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| Anybody Explain SNP on 17:46 - Nov 9 with 3415 views | Churchman |
| Anybody Explain SNP on 17:38 - Nov 9 by cbower |
Quite surprised you didn't call it The Common Market to be honest. |
I used the term Wiki used for 1957. I’m not sure when the name changes took place tbh. | | | |
| Anybody Explain SNP on 17:53 - Nov 9 with 3394 views | cbower |
| Anybody Explain SNP on 17:46 - Nov 9 by Churchman |
I used the term Wiki used for 1957. I’m not sure when the name changes took place tbh. |
Most of the rest of Europe, France and Germany in particular, recognised that, as per the Treaty of Rome (which referenced "ever closer political union") it was never just about economics. The fact that we called it the Common Market and / or the EEC simply showed that Edward Heath deceived the British public in the early 70s and brushed the political dimension of membership to one side. Like all Tory Prime Ministers, not to be trusted..........ever. | |
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| Anybody Explain SNP on 17:59 - Nov 9 with 3373 views | Darth_Koont |
| Anybody Explain SNP on 17:00 - Nov 9 by Herbivore |
It's not hard to understand. The SNP believe what is best for Scotland is for Scotland to be an independent nation within the EU. Being part of a UK outside the EU is the worst possible scenario for them and is a significant material change in what was promised to Scotland when they had their previous independence referendum. |
Exactly.
Added to which, the last few years of Brexit should be showing how awful successive governments have been at doing the best for the country as opposed to the best for their party. Wanting independence from Westminster incompetence and more of a focus on what's important for a 21st Century country shouldn't really be such a radical view anymore, should it? |  |
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| Anybody Explain SNP on 18:17 - Nov 9 with 3332 views | Churchman |
| Anybody Explain SNP on 17:53 - Nov 9 by cbower |
Most of the rest of Europe, France and Germany in particular, recognised that, as per the Treaty of Rome (which referenced "ever closer political union") it was never just about economics. The fact that we called it the Common Market and / or the EEC simply showed that Edward Heath deceived the British public in the early 70s and brushed the political dimension of membership to one side. Like all Tory Prime Ministers, not to be trusted..........ever. |
According to Wiki (I’m being very lazy here - Apols) ’The EU and European citizenship were established when the Maastricht Treaty came into force in 1993. The EU traces its origins to the European Coal and Steel Community (ECSC) and the European Economic Community (EEC), established, respectively, by the 1951 Treaty of Paris and 1957 Treaty of Rome’.
The support for the CM/EC/EEC/EU in both the main parties has ebbed an flowed over the years, both in party policy and internally, as far as I can see. Briefly looking at the wording, I agree the Treaty of R indicates intent for closer political union. Despite having a good knowledge of the present through work up to the end of March, I really need to understand the history better.
I think the shame of that dreadful man Heath lies in the terms of joining the EEC (correct name?😃) in 1973 which as far as I can see were not great financially, or for our existing trading partners and industries such as fishing. Maybe the roots of ‘Leave’ with some lie here? And that is a genuine question as for me Remain at the time of the vote was always the only option economically - and still is. [Post edited 9 Nov 2019 18:18]
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| Anybody Explain SNP on 18:41 - Nov 9 with 3291 views | cbower |
| Anybody Explain SNP on 18:17 - Nov 9 by Churchman |
According to Wiki (I’m being very lazy here - Apols) ’The EU and European citizenship were established when the Maastricht Treaty came into force in 1993. The EU traces its origins to the European Coal and Steel Community (ECSC) and the European Economic Community (EEC), established, respectively, by the 1951 Treaty of Paris and 1957 Treaty of Rome’.
The support for the CM/EC/EEC/EU in both the main parties has ebbed an flowed over the years, both in party policy and internally, as far as I can see. Briefly looking at the wording, I agree the Treaty of R indicates intent for closer political union. Despite having a good knowledge of the present through work up to the end of March, I really need to understand the history better.
I think the shame of that dreadful man Heath lies in the terms of joining the EEC (correct name?😃) in 1973 which as far as I can see were not great financially, or for our existing trading partners and industries such as fishing. Maybe the roots of ‘Leave’ with some lie here? And that is a genuine question as for me Remain at the time of the vote was always the only option economically - and still is. [Post edited 9 Nov 2019 18:18]
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Heath's deception is the root of the Tory dissent that split the party over Europe to the present day. Remain is the only sensible path in my opinion and to go back to your original post, of course NATO has been a factor in the lack of conflict in Western Europe since 1945, but you should never disregard the significance of the EU in binding Franco-German interests in particular so closely together that another conflict was never likely. | |
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| Anybody Explain SNP on 18:58 - Nov 9 with 3280 views | Churchman |
| Anybody Explain SNP on 18:41 - Nov 9 by cbower |
Heath's deception is the root of the Tory dissent that split the party over Europe to the present day. Remain is the only sensible path in my opinion and to go back to your original post, of course NATO has been a factor in the lack of conflict in Western Europe since 1945, but you should never disregard the significance of the EU in binding Franco-German interests in particular so closely together that another conflict was never likely. |
I don’t disregard it’s enormous significance, but my point re the crucial role of NATO is also valid in my view. Germany was divided and militarily supported by the US and to a lesser extent the UK for the whole of the Cold War and beyond. EU or no EU there was never any chance of another war between the major countries in Western Europe, not least because of the German constitution.
You could though legitimately argue that following the collapse of the USSR and withdrawal of US/UK forces the EUs importance in this respect is much greater now than it ever was? Just thoughts. | | | |
| Anybody Explain SNP on 19:05 - Nov 9 with 3268 views | cbower |
| Anybody Explain SNP on 18:58 - Nov 9 by Churchman |
I don’t disregard it’s enormous significance, but my point re the crucial role of NATO is also valid in my view. Germany was divided and militarily supported by the US and to a lesser extent the UK for the whole of the Cold War and beyond. EU or no EU there was never any chance of another war between the major countries in Western Europe, not least because of the German constitution.
You could though legitimately argue that following the collapse of the USSR and withdrawal of US/UK forces the EUs importance in this respect is much greater now than it ever was? Just thoughts. |
It is good to dicuss with someone who has rational thoughts isn't it! Rabid zealots, whatever their persuasion, is where it gets out of control. Note, I don"t think the SNP are rabid zealots. Were I a Scot, Nicola Sturgeon would get my vote. The Scots have been neglected by successive Westministercentric regimes and whilst certain areas have profited from North Sea oil, you can bet your boots the money men of London and major corporations have done the best out of it. | |
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| Anybody Explain SNP on 19:32 - Nov 9 with 3234 views | Churchman |
| Anybody Explain SNP on 19:05 - Nov 9 by cbower |
It is good to dicuss with someone who has rational thoughts isn't it! Rabid zealots, whatever their persuasion, is where it gets out of control. Note, I don"t think the SNP are rabid zealots. Were I a Scot, Nicola Sturgeon would get my vote. The Scots have been neglected by successive Westministercentric regimes and whilst certain areas have profited from North Sea oil, you can bet your boots the money men of London and major corporations have done the best out of it. |
Indeed it is and is much appreciated - and rational discussion/debate just encourages me to try to learn and understand better.
I would vote SNP too if I was Scottish. Their aims always appears to be to do the best for their people, not something I see in abundance with either of the major parties for the rest of the UK. Without going into detail (I can’t) the SNP do have their ...‘issues’, though. | | | |
| Anybody Explain SNP on 19:38 - Nov 9 with 3218 views | MJallday |
if only there was someone on this forum from scotland who could discuss politics....... |  |
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| Anybody Explain SNP on 19:41 - Nov 9 with 3211 views | ClareBlue |
| Anybody Explain SNP on 18:58 - Nov 9 by Churchman |
I don’t disregard it’s enormous significance, but my point re the crucial role of NATO is also valid in my view. Germany was divided and militarily supported by the US and to a lesser extent the UK for the whole of the Cold War and beyond. EU or no EU there was never any chance of another war between the major countries in Western Europe, not least because of the German constitution.
You could though legitimately argue that following the collapse of the USSR and withdrawal of US/UK forces the EUs importance in this respect is much greater now than it ever was? Just thoughts. |
Well I'm glad somebody brought Heath up and his toxic legacy.
This brings it all full circle as the SNP polled it best ever results in the election of 28th Feb 1974 (since bettered in 2015) and got 11 MPs and as a consequence Heath did not have a majority and was fortunately let go.
His slogan for the election acording to Wiki was "Who governs Britain?".
It all sounds so familiar,
Leeds won the league, we finished 4th, Norwich finished bottom and were relegated, Man U finished 2nd to bottom and we beat Southhampton 7-0 at PR. TWTD | | | |
| Anybody Explain SNP on 19:52 - Nov 9 with 3174 views | bazgammon |
the snp like plaid cymru are nothing but bigoted anti English parties. I wonder if the likes of that windbag Blackford would be so insistent on leaving the UK 'with a deal' as he has been so insistent in blocking the UK leaving the EU without a deal. An English independence Referendum is due. | |
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| Anybody Explain SNP on 20:08 - Nov 9 with 3151 views | BlueForYou |
If Scotland won a referendum vote to leave the UK, they would need the EU to finance them wouldnt they? Didnt we say at their last attempt they could not continue in the pound? Regarding the root of the Leave mission, I was too young to vote in the 70's but remember my thoughts of opposition to the EEC. We really should have had a Referendum after Maastricht, but John Major stubbornly refused. I think a lot of people carry a lot of anger about that. |  | | |
| Anybody Explain SNP on 20:15 - Nov 9 with 3115 views | jeera |
| Anybody Explain SNP on 20:08 - Nov 9 by BlueForYou |
If Scotland won a referendum vote to leave the UK, they would need the EU to finance them wouldnt they? Didnt we say at their last attempt they could not continue in the pound? Regarding the root of the Leave mission, I was too young to vote in the 70's but remember my thoughts of opposition to the EEC. We really should have had a Referendum after Maastricht, but John Major stubbornly refused. I think a lot of people carry a lot of anger about that. |
" I think a lot of people carry a lot of anger about that"
I think most people neither care nor even remember.
Be honest, most wouldn't even know what that is. | |
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