| Vote Green folks* 15:58 - Dec 30 with 9679 views | Darth_Koont |
*Or SNP/Scottish Greens in Scotland.
Sure, vote Labour in 2024 if it’s about removing the Tories but don’t give these self-serving, no-principled empty suits the benefit of your support in polls or local elections until then. They’re not far off as bad a breed as the Tories.
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| Vote Green folks* on 16:06 - Dec 30 with 3759 views | J2BLUE |
I think you're right. Starmer is starting to look a bit of a wet blanket. |  |
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| Vote Green folks* on 16:19 - Dec 30 with 3714 views | Darth_Koont |
| Vote Green folks* on 16:06 - Dec 30 by J2BLUE |
I think you're right. Starmer is starting to look a bit of a wet blanket. |
A wet blanket would assume he had some substance. A ghostly shroud on British politics would be more appropriate. | |
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| Vote Green folks* on 16:38 - Dec 30 with 3661 views | C_HealyIsAPleasure |
Serious question - what do you think the outcome would be if the deal didn’t pass? No deal and a mess come Friday or something being thrashed out with the EU with either better terms or an extension to the current position? |  |
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| Vote Green folks* on 16:40 - Dec 30 with 3652 views | Darth_Koont |
| Vote Green folks* on 16:38 - Dec 30 by C_HealyIsAPleasure |
Serious question - what do you think the outcome would be if the deal didn’t pass? No deal and a mess come Friday or something being thrashed out with the EU with either better terms or an extension to the current position? |
Serious question: Do you seriously think the deal wouldn’t pass? | |
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| Vote Green folks* on 16:46 - Dec 30 with 3631 views | itfcjoe |
Labour are doing the right thing, and Starmer set his case out for it well in his speech. |  |
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| Vote Green folks* on 16:49 - Dec 30 with 3604 views | MonkeyAlan |
Boris is a good egg really. |  | | |
| Vote Green folks* on 16:57 - Dec 30 with 3576 views | Churchman |
I have a lot of time for Caroline Lucas, but I disagree with her on this. I believe the vote was about deal of some sort or no deal with all that meant. Labour MPs voting for it doesn’t for me mean that they are taking responsibility for it. Like it or loathe it this is the tories’ deal alone. |  | | |
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| Vote Green folks* on 17:05 - Dec 30 with 3540 views | Nthsuffolkblue |
Surely, with the Conservatives being elected on "Get Brexit done" at this stage, it was this deal or no deal?
What does Lucas think Johnson would have done if the deal had not been passed?
I guess Starmer is trying to appeal to those traditionally Labour supporters that voted Johnson into power due to the above mantra too.
Isn't this simply cheap political points scoring from Lucas? |  |
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| Vote Green folks* on 17:11 - Dec 30 with 3521 views | Clapham_Junction |
| Vote Green folks* on 17:05 - Dec 30 by Nthsuffolkblue |
Surely, with the Conservatives being elected on "Get Brexit done" at this stage, it was this deal or no deal?
What does Lucas think Johnson would have done if the deal had not been passed?
I guess Starmer is trying to appeal to those traditionally Labour supporters that voted Johnson into power due to the above mantra too.
Isn't this simply cheap political points scoring from Lucas? |
It wouldn't have resulted in no deal - as Clive Lewis said in his speech, this is a false claim used to coerce MPs into voting for it.
From the link I posted above:
'It has been suggested that a failure to vote in favour of the Brexit deal is a vote for ‘no deal’. Such a suggestion is, from a legal and constitutional perspective, entirely wrong. Similarly, a vote in favour of the bill is not a vote in favour of the deal. It is simply a vote to give the executive the powers set out in the bill.'
Very disappointed to see my local MP has claimed to have voted for it to prevent no deal. |  | | |
| Vote Green folks* on 17:12 - Dec 30 with 3507 views | Nthsuffolkblue |
| Vote Green folks* on 17:11 - Dec 30 by Clapham_Junction |
It wouldn't have resulted in no deal - as Clive Lewis said in his speech, this is a false claim used to coerce MPs into voting for it.
From the link I posted above:
'It has been suggested that a failure to vote in favour of the Brexit deal is a vote for ‘no deal’. Such a suggestion is, from a legal and constitutional perspective, entirely wrong. Similarly, a vote in favour of the bill is not a vote in favour of the deal. It is simply a vote to give the executive the powers set out in the bill.'
Very disappointed to see my local MP has claimed to have voted for it to prevent no deal. |
What do you think Johnson would have done? | |
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| Vote Green folks* on 17:15 - Dec 30 with 3498 views | Funge |
A sizeable portion of the 'Red Wall' were convinced that Getting Brexit Done was reason enough to vote Tory at the last election.
Bearing in mind that Labour need to win the likes of Bolsover and Blyth Valley back at the next election to have any chance of getting rid of the Tories, backing the deal seems a fairly obvious move for Starmer to take.
Regardless of your oft-repeated dislike of this latest incarnation of Labour, suggesting that they are 'Not far off as bad a breed as the Tories' is palpable b0llocks. [Post edited 30 Dec 2020 17:16]
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| Vote Green folks* on 17:23 - Dec 30 with 3466 views | tractordownsouth |
Hilarious that the people who have spent the last year absolving Corbyn of any blame for the 2019 election defeat and saying it was all because we weren't pro-Brexit enough are now the same ones refusing to back the deal.
Put it this way. Labour MPs today were choosing between voting to watch 1 hour of Mrs Brown's Boys or voting against and being forced to watch 2 hours instead. Voting against the 1 hour might give you the moral high ground but the end result is actually worse, so instead it's better to take the 1 hour, acknowledge it's bad but not half as bad as it could have been. |  |
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| Vote Green folks* on 17:25 - Dec 30 with 3457 views | tractordownsouth |
| Vote Green folks* on 16:46 - Dec 30 by itfcjoe |
Labour are doing the right thing, and Starmer set his case out for it well in his speech. |
The people attacking him for voting for the deal are the same ones who attacked him for voting against the last deal. Almost as if it's not actually anything to do with Brexit... | |
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| Vote Green folks* on 17:26 - Dec 30 with 3449 views | tractordownsouth |
| Vote Green folks* on 17:05 - Dec 30 by Nthsuffolkblue |
Surely, with the Conservatives being elected on "Get Brexit done" at this stage, it was this deal or no deal?
What does Lucas think Johnson would have done if the deal had not been passed?
I guess Starmer is trying to appeal to those traditionally Labour supporters that voted Johnson into power due to the above mantra too.
Isn't this simply cheap political points scoring from Lucas? |
They're essentially voting against the deal, while hoping that everyone else votes for it. Madness. | |
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| Vote Green folks* on 17:36 - Dec 30 with 3418 views | SuperKieranMcKenna |
| Vote Green folks* on 17:23 - Dec 30 by tractordownsouth |
Hilarious that the people who have spent the last year absolving Corbyn of any blame for the 2019 election defeat and saying it was all because we weren't pro-Brexit enough are now the same ones refusing to back the deal.
Put it this way. Labour MPs today were choosing between voting to watch 1 hour of Mrs Brown's Boys or voting against and being forced to watch 2 hours instead. Voting against the 1 hour might give you the moral high ground but the end result is actually worse, so instead it's better to take the 1 hour, acknowledge it's bad but not half as bad as it could have been. |
Spot on.
"It wasn't Corbyn it was Brexit"
"must vote against Brexit deal" (This will almost definitely be interpreted as 'obstructing the will of the people')'.
Go figure. |  | | |
| Vote Green folks* on 18:13 - Dec 30 with 3302 views | LankHenners |
| Vote Green folks* on 17:26 - Dec 30 by tractordownsouth |
They're essentially voting against the deal, while hoping that everyone else votes for it. Madness. |
It's not really though is it? If the argument is that the Tory majority is too big for the vote to go any other way than the way they want to, then you're left with voting with your principles. To that end, it's not unreasonable if people are irked by one of the main public backers of the frankly insane (regardless of which way you voted) People's Vote now deciding that voting for the deal is good and implying anyone not doing so is in favour of no deal.
You can understand why Starmer would vote that way now but equally you should be able to understand why people might be rolling their eyes and wondering why he didn't come to the conclusion that the vote was done and dusted a while ago and would've avoided contributing to the mess that Labour found themselves in over the whole thing. |  |
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| Vote Green folks* on 18:18 - Dec 30 with 3282 views | Herbivore |
It's pretty laughable when you hear Brexiteers calling the EU undemocratic when you then look at what a shambles our system is. |  |
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| Vote Green folks* on 18:20 - Dec 30 with 3272 views | 26_Paz |
Right thing to do to take a stance, unlike his predecessor.
This is a Conservative deal that the Conservatives will own going into the next election, for better or worse.
The Tories backed the Iraq war but it was Labour’s decision and Labour owned it. That’s one of the main reason they were kicked out in 2010. Similar concept. |  |
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| Vote Green folks* on 18:46 - Dec 30 with 3211 views | MattinLondon |
| Vote Green folks* on 16:49 - Dec 30 by MonkeyAlan |
Boris is a good egg really. |
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| Vote Green folks* on 18:51 - Dec 30 with 3198 views | tractordownsouth |
| Vote Green folks* on 18:13 - Dec 30 by LankHenners |
It's not really though is it? If the argument is that the Tory majority is too big for the vote to go any other way than the way they want to, then you're left with voting with your principles. To that end, it's not unreasonable if people are irked by one of the main public backers of the frankly insane (regardless of which way you voted) People's Vote now deciding that voting for the deal is good and implying anyone not doing so is in favour of no deal.
You can understand why Starmer would vote that way now but equally you should be able to understand why people might be rolling their eyes and wondering why he didn't come to the conclusion that the vote was done and dusted a while ago and would've avoided contributing to the mess that Labour found themselves in over the whole thing. |
Agree with the second paragraph. I hold my hands up that I was wrong about a PV - Labour should've backed May's deal | |
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| Vote Green folks* on 18:52 - Dec 30 with 3195 views | tractordownsouth |
| Vote Green folks* on 18:20 - Dec 30 by 26_Paz |
Right thing to do to take a stance, unlike his predecessor.
This is a Conservative deal that the Conservatives will own going into the next election, for better or worse.
The Tories backed the Iraq war but it was Labour’s decision and Labour owned it. That’s one of the main reason they were kicked out in 2010. Similar concept. |
Bloody hell, I'm agreeing with you. Maybe I'm wrong! | |
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| Vote Green folks* on 19:08 - Dec 30 with 3171 views | Darth_Koont |
| Vote Green folks* on 16:46 - Dec 30 by itfcjoe |
Labour are doing the right thing, and Starmer set his case out for it well in his speech. |
You don’t have to vote for a deal that doesn’t reflect the referendum.
Be honest. | |
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| Vote Green folks* on 19:10 - Dec 30 with 3162 views | Darth_Koont |
| Vote Green folks* on 17:23 - Dec 30 by tractordownsouth |
Hilarious that the people who have spent the last year absolving Corbyn of any blame for the 2019 election defeat and saying it was all because we weren't pro-Brexit enough are now the same ones refusing to back the deal.
Put it this way. Labour MPs today were choosing between voting to watch 1 hour of Mrs Brown's Boys or voting against and being forced to watch 2 hours instead. Voting against the 1 hour might give you the moral high ground but the end result is actually worse, so instead it's better to take the 1 hour, acknowledge it's bad but not half as bad as it could have been. |
Oh dear. | |
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| Vote Green folks* on 19:14 - Dec 30 with 3154 views | Darth_Koont |
| Vote Green folks* on 17:15 - Dec 30 by Funge |
A sizeable portion of the 'Red Wall' were convinced that Getting Brexit Done was reason enough to vote Tory at the last election.
Bearing in mind that Labour need to win the likes of Bolsover and Blyth Valley back at the next election to have any chance of getting rid of the Tories, backing the deal seems a fairly obvious move for Starmer to take.
Regardless of your oft-repeated dislike of this latest incarnation of Labour, suggesting that they are 'Not far off as bad a breed as the Tories' is palpable b0llocks. [Post edited 30 Dec 2020 17:16]
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As ever, we’ll have to agree to disagree.
I don’t think politics is about this triangulating self-serving b@ll@cks. | |
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