| The NHS 15:37 - May 19 with 3313 views | hype313 |
We can't afford it in it's current guise, Why doesn't someone just come out and say it? It would add huge gravitas to their credibility if so.
It's been a hot potato for years now, all we seem to do is kick the can down the road. It's all about trying to not raise taxes or doing so by stealth, why not just say, you want a health service, well taxes are going up.
I along with majority of people I know wouldn't have any issue whatsoever. |  |
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| The NHS on 15:39 - May 19 with 2172 views | chicoazul |
We can afford it. |  |
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| The NHS on 15:39 - May 19 with 2176 views | itfcjoe |
There should just be a cross party consensus of something like what LDs proposd of a 1% rise in income tax to go to NHS.
It shouldn't be a vote gainer or a vote loser, it should just be how it is whoever is elected |  |
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| The NHS on 15:42 - May 19 with 2142 views | GlasgowBlue |
Political suicide. It's been built up to religious like proportions.
People say spend another £x million on it but it's the whole system that needs changed.
And when somebody says that immediately people think you are running down the wonderful people who work in the service. They are amazing people who deserve to work in a 21st Century health service. Not something from 1947.
And again, talk about other countries health care and they throw the USA at you. The US system is appalling. No one is suggesting we copy there system anymore than any other country has copied our system.
The Dutch have got health care spot on. |  |
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| The NHS on 15:43 - May 19 with 2136 views | itfcjoe |
| The NHS on 15:42 - May 19 by GlasgowBlue |
Political suicide. It's been built up to religious like proportions.
People say spend another £x million on it but it's the whole system that needs changed.
And when somebody says that immediately people think you are running down the wonderful people who work in the service. They are amazing people who deserve to work in a 21st Century health service. Not something from 1947.
And again, talk about other countries health care and they throw the USA at you. The US system is appalling. No one is suggesting we copy there system anymore than any other country has copied our system.
The Dutch have got health care spot on. |
How does Dutch system work? | |
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| The NHS on 15:43 - May 19 with 2115 views | GlasgowBlue |
| The NHS on 15:39 - May 19 by itfcjoe |
There should just be a cross party consensus of something like what LDs proposd of a 1% rise in income tax to go to NHS.
It shouldn't be a vote gainer or a vote loser, it should just be how it is whoever is elected |
Politics should be taken out of it completely. We should have a national debate with the health care systems that are discussed in a grown up manner with no bias from either side.
Chucking money at it isn't the answer. | |
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| The NHS on 15:43 - May 19 with 2131 views | chicoazul |
| The NHS on 15:39 - May 19 by itfcjoe |
There should just be a cross party consensus of something like what LDs proposd of a 1% rise in income tax to go to NHS.
It shouldn't be a vote gainer or a vote loser, it should just be how it is whoever is elected |
People always want consensus for stuff they believe in."Its just common sense" and other such platitudes.
We can easily afford the NHS and social care. We can easily afford Trident. We can easily afford pensions, education, the Army. But we may not be able to afford all of it. | |
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| The NHS on 15:43 - May 19 with 2125 views | MJallday |
The NHS is a wonderful institution founded on its caring people - being f***d over by its lack of funding , overly complex management and to some extent, being held to ransom by pharmasutical companies
as i have said on many occasions, having worked in consultancy for the NHS - i personally believe there are 2 ways to save the NHS
1) privatization - which would ultimately make service better but cost people more - or
2) keeping it nationalised - but a massive increase (perhaps trebbling) of its allocated resource, alongside a complete change of the way in which it is structured and managed. (without the second bit, the resource adding would get swallowed)
one thing is certain and that is your original premise - it is unsustainable in its current guise. the influx of people, alongside the disemination of front line resources has destroyed it |  |
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| The NHS on 15:45 - May 19 with 2103 views | chicoazul |
| The NHS on 15:43 - May 19 by GlasgowBlue |
Politics should be taken out of it completely. We should have a national debate with the health care systems that are discussed in a grown up manner with no bias from either side.
Chucking money at it isn't the answer. |
Chucking money at it is the only answer if, as you say, it would be political suicide to change it. | |
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| The NHS on 15:48 - May 19 with 2080 views | MJallday |
| The NHS on 15:43 - May 19 by GlasgowBlue |
Politics should be taken out of it completely. We should have a national debate with the health care systems that are discussed in a grown up manner with no bias from either side.
Chucking money at it isn't the answer. |
correct - the problem is it would get swallowed up.
poor management strategy - no procurement controls, no willingness to change, too many "blue sky thinkers" and not enough "do-ers"
wait until IR35 kicks in for public sector - that will really shake it up. | |
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| The NHS on 15:49 - May 19 with 2055 views | GlasgowBlue |
| The NHS on 15:45 - May 19 by chicoazul |
Chucking money at it is the only answer if, as you say, it would be political suicide to change it. |
It like putting one sticking plaster over the top of another sticking plaster over the top of another sticking plaster when somebody is bleeding to death.
If politicians from all sides were honest enough to say "let's have a national debate" we could make some progress. And who knows. An NHS with treble the funding could be the answer. But let's have the debate without people being branded as heretics. | |
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| The NHS on 15:51 - May 19 with 2052 views | BergholtBru |
| The NHS on 15:43 - May 19 by chicoazul |
People always want consensus for stuff they believe in."Its just common sense" and other such platitudes.
We can easily afford the NHS and social care. We can easily afford Trident. We can easily afford pensions, education, the Army. But we may not be able to afford all of it. |
"Guns or butter"!! |  |
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| The NHS on 15:55 - May 19 with 2026 views | Darth_Koont |
Because the real political battle is about money in our pockets and which party is the strongest, most stable and most fiscally responsible.
Basically politicians have realized that "what's in it for me" and only bringing in society as a source of fear is a hugely powerful message that trumps (pun intended) almost any others. And we have a press that doesn't censure them for that approach but actively cheerleads from the sides.
Frankly, we've got ourselves into a bit of a f@cking mess. |  |
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| The NHS on 16:07 - May 19 with 1968 views | hype313 |
| The NHS on 15:39 - May 19 by itfcjoe |
There should just be a cross party consensus of something like what LDs proposd of a 1% rise in income tax to go to NHS.
It shouldn't be a vote gainer or a vote loser, it should just be how it is whoever is elected |
Agreed, it should be taken out of the political game, every govt should adhere to a percentage, not too dissimilar to the NATO budget. | |
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| The NHS on 16:10 - May 19 with 1950 views | GeoffSentence |
You might have missed it, but the Liberal Democrats have said exactly that. |  |
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| The NHS on 16:16 - May 19 with 1932 views | BOjK |
| The NHS on 15:42 - May 19 by GlasgowBlue |
Political suicide. It's been built up to religious like proportions.
People say spend another £x million on it but it's the whole system that needs changed.
And when somebody says that immediately people think you are running down the wonderful people who work in the service. They are amazing people who deserve to work in a 21st Century health service. Not something from 1947.
And again, talk about other countries health care and they throw the USA at you. The US system is appalling. No one is suggesting we copy there system anymore than any other country has copied our system.
The Dutch have got health care spot on. |
Successive governments have changed the whole system on a repeated basis. The tories introduced an internal market and brought in some private provision, Labour reformed that, then the Tories introduced CCGs.
The idea that governments don't change the operating structure in the NHS is one of the biggest myths around it.
Anyway, it is clear to me that the cause of the current NHS crisis is clearly a major capacity problem, directly flowing from a lack of cash. Combine that with the appalling level of social care in this country and problems are apparent throughout the system.
Edit: And plenty of people predicted all the current problems. They looked at the post-2010 funding plans, the lack of integration with social care, the costs and the lack of direction in Lansley's plans and predicted the current mess. It is part of the genius of the current government that the fall-off in performance since 2010 is laughably being written off as being the cause of an unmanageable system, rather than the direct result of terrible governmental direction and financial squeezes. [Post edited 19 May 2017 16:19]
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| The NHS on 16:28 - May 19 with 1892 views | MJallday |
| The NHS on 16:16 - May 19 by BOjK |
Successive governments have changed the whole system on a repeated basis. The tories introduced an internal market and brought in some private provision, Labour reformed that, then the Tories introduced CCGs.
The idea that governments don't change the operating structure in the NHS is one of the biggest myths around it.
Anyway, it is clear to me that the cause of the current NHS crisis is clearly a major capacity problem, directly flowing from a lack of cash. Combine that with the appalling level of social care in this country and problems are apparent throughout the system.
Edit: And plenty of people predicted all the current problems. They looked at the post-2010 funding plans, the lack of integration with social care, the costs and the lack of direction in Lansley's plans and predicted the current mess. It is part of the genius of the current government that the fall-off in performance since 2010 is laughably being written off as being the cause of an unmanageable system, rather than the direct result of terrible governmental direction and financial squeezes. [Post edited 19 May 2017 16:19]
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this is the case - the population of the uk
in 2000 it was 58.89 m
in 2010 it was 62.77m
in 2016 it was 65.11m
so thats 8 million more people (roughly 12%) in 16 years.
so lets say (and its a loose figure) that theres been a 10% increase in the amount of patients visiting hospitals assuming that the sickness rates are the same.
further assuming that to be the case - do you think the NHS has had a 10% increase in its capacity since 1990? have 10% more hospitals been built? have 10% more nurses/doctors been employed?
no?
there is your answer. | |
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| The NHS on 16:31 - May 19 with 1883 views | Darth_Koont |
| The NHS on 16:28 - May 19 by MJallday |
this is the case - the population of the uk
in 2000 it was 58.89 m
in 2010 it was 62.77m
in 2016 it was 65.11m
so thats 8 million more people (roughly 12%) in 16 years.
so lets say (and its a loose figure) that theres been a 10% increase in the amount of patients visiting hospitals assuming that the sickness rates are the same.
further assuming that to be the case - do you think the NHS has had a 10% increase in its capacity since 1990? have 10% more hospitals been built? have 10% more nurses/doctors been employed?
no?
there is your answer. |
Good points.
And just to add that the population is getting older over that time and the availability of treatments has gone up (some of them very expensive too). All of which stretches budgets and capacity even further. | |
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| The NHS on 16:40 - May 19 with 1855 views | footers |
This is going off on a tangent a bit- and would definitely require multiple ten-pagers to discuss properly- but I've always felt we need to change our attitude towards death in the West. What with the last few months of life being the most expensive in terms of healthcare, different thinking about assisted dying could save the NHS quite a bit. Not a patch on the overall spending, of course, but seems unfair, cruel and costly to keep people alive against their wishes. |  |
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| The NHS on 16:57 - May 19 with 1821 views | jaykay |
| The NHS on 15:43 - May 19 by MJallday |
The NHS is a wonderful institution founded on its caring people - being f***d over by its lack of funding , overly complex management and to some extent, being held to ransom by pharmasutical companies
as i have said on many occasions, having worked in consultancy for the NHS - i personally believe there are 2 ways to save the NHS
1) privatization - which would ultimately make service better but cost people more - or
2) keeping it nationalised - but a massive increase (perhaps trebbling) of its allocated resource, alongside a complete change of the way in which it is structured and managed. (without the second bit, the resource adding would get swallowed)
one thing is certain and that is your original premise - it is unsustainable in its current guise. the influx of people, alongside the disemination of front line resources has destroyed it |
well if the railways are anything are to by cant see privatization being the answer.
profit should never be made from the n.h.s. |  |
| forensic experts say footers and spruces fingerprints were not found at the scene after the weekends rows |
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| The NHS on 16:59 - May 19 with 1813 views | meekreech |
| The NHS on 16:31 - May 19 by Darth_Koont |
Good points.
And just to add that the population is getting older over that time and the availability of treatments has gone up (some of them very expensive too). All of which stretches budgets and capacity even further. |
The money poured into the system , which has increased substantially , has not always been used in the most efficient or worthwhile way . Instead of paying for more levels of management , usually not qualified to decide or understand medical problems , the money should be used to increase medical staff .
Another part of the problem is the lack of serious negotiation in pricing of medicines , drugs and equipment . When drug companies are allowed to increase prices without notification or negotiation the business should be moved , even if to foreign generic products .
As things stand the answer , in my book , is to take the whole service back to when it was supervised by medical people not career managers ! |  |
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| The NHS on 17:01 - May 19 with 1805 views | hampstead_blue |
I play cricket with the lead special adviser for Jeremy Hunt.
The short answer is that the public and NHS wouldn't have the stomach for the changes required to make the NHS as good as it could be.
It could be so much better but, the staff would kick-off in such a way that it would be impossible to make the right changes.
If the lefties in the NHS were to step aside and accept change, within a few years it would be epic. |  |
| Assumption is to make an ass out of you and me.
Those who assume they know you, when they don't are just guessing.
Those who assume and insist they know are daft and in denial.
Those who assume, insist, and deny the truth are plain stupid.
Those who assume, insist, deny the truth and tell YOU they know you (when they don't) have an IQ in the range of 35-49.
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| The NHS on 17:04 - May 19 with 1784 views | Clapham_Junction |
| The NHS on 16:59 - May 19 by meekreech |
The money poured into the system , which has increased substantially , has not always been used in the most efficient or worthwhile way . Instead of paying for more levels of management , usually not qualified to decide or understand medical problems , the money should be used to increase medical staff .
Another part of the problem is the lack of serious negotiation in pricing of medicines , drugs and equipment . When drug companies are allowed to increase prices without notification or negotiation the business should be moved , even if to foreign generic products .
As things stand the answer , in my book , is to take the whole service back to when it was supervised by medical people not career managers ! |
Not to mention the money being sucked out by PFI deals. My local hospital cost £1.1bn to build but the repayments are over £7bn!!
If we increased spending to the equivalent of Germany (about 2% more of GDP), stopped the outsourcing and tried to find a way to end the PFI deals, then I think the NHS would be in a much better place. |  | | |
| The NHS on 17:08 - May 19 with 1769 views | Darth_Koont |
| The NHS on 17:01 - May 19 by hampstead_blue |
I play cricket with the lead special adviser for Jeremy Hunt.
The short answer is that the public and NHS wouldn't have the stomach for the changes required to make the NHS as good as it could be.
It could be so much better but, the staff would kick-off in such a way that it would be impossible to make the right changes.
If the lefties in the NHS were to step aside and accept change, within a few years it would be epic. |
My sister is pretty high up in her field within the NHS. She certainly isn't a leftie but she says the government doesn't know its @rse from its elbow when it comes to the NHS and that successive governments have done more harm than good over her 25 years within it. For staff and patients.
I wouldn't trust anyone Jeremy Hunt trusts. | |
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| The NHS on 17:10 - May 19 with 1761 views | ThePitBoss |
| The NHS on 17:01 - May 19 by hampstead_blue |
I play cricket with the lead special adviser for Jeremy Hunt.
The short answer is that the public and NHS wouldn't have the stomach for the changes required to make the NHS as good as it could be.
It could be so much better but, the staff would kick-off in such a way that it would be impossible to make the right changes.
If the lefties in the NHS were to step aside and accept change, within a few years it would be epic. |
But JEREMY RHYMING SLANG etc. etc. etc. etc. |  | | |
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