| How will this work? on 10:25 - Mar 12 with 3048 views | BrixtonBlue |
Or it's just a meeting to address some issues. |  |
|  |
| How will this work? on 10:28 - Mar 12 with 3041 views | StokieBlue |
| How will this work? on 10:25 - Mar 12 by BrixtonBlue |
Or it's just a meeting to address some issues. |
It's not just a meeting, it's a new group within Labour run by Watson called "Future Britain".
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/mar/08/tom-watson-sets-up-centre-left-
I just wanted to know how it would work and play out internally. Is it like the ERG within the Tories? I don't know the internal politics of Labour hence was asking - it seemed like he was trying to setup a section of the party against JC (as the Guardian article alludes to with a second power base).
SB |  |
| Avatar - IC410 - Tadpoles Nebula |
| |
| How will this work? on 10:32 - Mar 12 with 3033 views | BrixtonBlue |
| How will this work? on 10:28 - Mar 12 by StokieBlue |
It's not just a meeting, it's a new group within Labour run by Watson called "Future Britain".
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/mar/08/tom-watson-sets-up-centre-left-
I just wanted to know how it would work and play out internally. Is it like the ERG within the Tories? I don't know the internal politics of Labour hence was asking - it seemed like he was trying to setup a section of the party against JC (as the Guardian article alludes to with a second power base).
SB |
"Is it like the ERG within the Tories?"
No. As it says in the article YOU linked.
Did you even read your own link or were you too desperate to get in your daily swipe at Corbyn? | |
| |
| How will this work? on 10:33 - Mar 12 with 3022 views | StokieBlue |
| How will this work? on 10:32 - Mar 12 by BrixtonBlue |
"Is it like the ERG within the Tories?"
No. As it says in the article YOU linked.
Did you even read your own link or were you too desperate to get in your daily swipe at Corbyn? |
You really are tedious sometimes.
Someone asks a genuine question and you go off on one. I'll wait for someone to reply sensibly since you've gone defensive for no reason at all. My post didn't mention JC at all and I've not posted anything political for ages so give it a rest. You're so quick to pick a fight you've made yourself look silly.
The articles are contradictory hence I asked. Independent says one thing, Guardian says another.
SB [Post edited 12 Mar 2019 10:35]
| |
| Avatar - IC410 - Tadpoles Nebula |
| |
| How will this work? on 10:35 - Mar 12 with 3010 views | hampstead_blue |
That is a lot of support for a return to a more centrist party.
It is interesting how the MP's view the policy of 1 member 1 vote for the leader.
Maybe they don't give that any credibility or feel that it has been skewed by Corbyn's team and Momentum. Is it £3 to join so you can vote?
It will be a good thing as it will hopefully bring both parties back to the centre ground. |  |
| Assumption is to make an ass out of you and me.
Those who assume they know you, when they don't are just guessing.
Those who assume and insist they know are daft and in denial.
Those who assume, insist, and deny the truth are plain stupid.
Those who assume, insist, deny the truth and tell YOU they know you (when they don't) have an IQ in the range of 35-49.
| | Poll: | Best Blackpool goal |
| |
| How will this work? on 10:43 - Mar 12 with 2970 views | BrixtonBlue |
| How will this work? on 10:33 - Mar 12 by StokieBlue |
You really are tedious sometimes.
Someone asks a genuine question and you go off on one. I'll wait for someone to reply sensibly since you've gone defensive for no reason at all. My post didn't mention JC at all and I've not posted anything political for ages so give it a rest. You're so quick to pick a fight you've made yourself look silly.
The articles are contradictory hence I asked. Independent says one thing, Guardian says another.
SB [Post edited 12 Mar 2019 10:35]
|
I was going on the quote from the actual MP rather than the journalists writing the articles. Seems pretty clear to me.
"Darren Jones MP insisted the group was not a faction or a Labour equivalent of the Tory European Research Group (ERG).
Mr Jones told reporters: “Some have said that this is a new faction it is in fact the complete opposite.
“As Neil Kinnock, our former leader was saying this evening, and Peter Mandelson, this is a coming together of previous factions into the mainstream Labour Party.
“We are not the ERG. We are not a party within a party.”"
You are on here constantly knocking JC - "My post didn't mention JC at all"?!? Come off it, we're not stupid. Suggesting a coup is another dig at Corbyn's leadership.
It might be tedious for you to be pulled up on what you're clearly doing but I'm only providing balance and certainly not looking to pick a fight. You linked to an article where an MP is clearly saying it's not like the ERG and then asked if it's like the ERG. Sorry, but I couldn't just let that go unchallenged! | |
| |
| How will this work? on 10:46 - Mar 12 with 2962 views | No9 |
Didn't the coup start 2 -3 weeks ago when Tom Watson was on TV? |  | | |
| How will this work? on 10:51 - Mar 12 with 2955 views | StokieBlue |
| How will this work? on 10:43 - Mar 12 by BrixtonBlue |
I was going on the quote from the actual MP rather than the journalists writing the articles. Seems pretty clear to me.
"Darren Jones MP insisted the group was not a faction or a Labour equivalent of the Tory European Research Group (ERG).
Mr Jones told reporters: “Some have said that this is a new faction it is in fact the complete opposite.
“As Neil Kinnock, our former leader was saying this evening, and Peter Mandelson, this is a coming together of previous factions into the mainstream Labour Party.
“We are not the ERG. We are not a party within a party.”"
You are on here constantly knocking JC - "My post didn't mention JC at all"?!? Come off it, we're not stupid. Suggesting a coup is another dig at Corbyn's leadership.
It might be tedious for you to be pulled up on what you're clearly doing but I'm only providing balance and certainly not looking to pick a fight. You linked to an article where an MP is clearly saying it's not like the ERG and then asked if it's like the ERG. Sorry, but I couldn't just let that go unchallenged! |
I’m sorry but that’s nonsense. I've not posted anything about JC or Labour for weeks because it's pointless. Anything at all is considered an attack.
There are contradictory articles on the subject everywhere so I wanted to know the insiders view. MPs say all kinds of stuff - they are hardly going to say they are building another power base are they. Why are you upset about someone wanting to get the opinion of people with more information?
It’s responses like yours that have made this board much less enjoyable than it used to be. Even the slightest political inquiry is immediately attacked as agenda driven or bashing.
You've just confirmed what many people feel about the board now. To say you provide balance is certainly something that you could add to your stand-up routine.
SB [Post edited 12 Mar 2019 10:52]
| |
| Avatar - IC410 - Tadpoles Nebula |
| |
Login to get fewer ads
| How will this work? on 10:52 - Mar 12 with 2945 views | chicoazul |
I dont know why these guys dont just knuckle up and join the Independent Group. |  |
| |
| How will this work? on 10:54 - Mar 12 with 2936 views | No9 |
| How will this work? on 10:52 - Mar 12 by chicoazul |
I dont know why these guys dont just knuckle up and join the Independent Group. |
Probably the same reason as the EG who have their own party within a party, elected leader & whips, don't break away? | | | |
| How will this work? on 10:55 - Mar 12 with 2936 views | chicoazul |
| How will this work? on 10:35 - Mar 12 by hampstead_blue |
That is a lot of support for a return to a more centrist party.
It is interesting how the MP's view the policy of 1 member 1 vote for the leader.
Maybe they don't give that any credibility or feel that it has been skewed by Corbyn's team and Momentum. Is it £3 to join so you can vote?
It will be a good thing as it will hopefully bring both parties back to the centre ground. |
Labour got their biggest share of the vote in ages at the last election, Corbyn is wildly popular. Blairism is dead in the Labour Party and it aint coming back as long as Comrades Milne Lansmann and McDonnell hold the reigns of power.
I predict the TIG guys will get wiped out by Labour at the next gen elec. | |
| |
| How will this work? on 10:55 - Mar 12 with 2933 views | chicoazul |
| How will this work? on 10:54 - Mar 12 by No9 |
Probably the same reason as the EG who have their own party within a party, elected leader & whips, don't break away? |
Yes probably. | |
| |
| How will this work? on 11:11 - Mar 12 with 2901 views | ZedRodgers |
I think something like this was inevitable given the fractious tone at the moment but people could be forgiven for assuming it's going to be more structured re-run of the last coup.
I'm not at all surprised by the numbers. Independent are reporting "more than 150 MPs and Lords", with The Times suggesting "about 80 MPs". I think I would have expected more than 80 MPs to attend.
In my opinion, championing the likes of Mandelson and Blunkett as figureheads of 'where we should be' represents the party moving backwards, not forwards. Whilst I would hope Watson's reasoning is solely to prevent further splits, I think cynics are always going to question the timing and motivation behind this. I've already seen various things along the lines of the website for this group being registered on the same day as the TIG's website. It's things like which will feed scepticism.
If it's really about shaping policy and direction as Watson has said, the group needs to be very transparent about what it is exactly that they disagree with or want to see more of. If that transpires, I would be happy to take this at face value. |  |
| |
| How will this work? on 11:15 - Mar 12 with 2884 views | Herbivore |
| How will this work? on 10:35 - Mar 12 by hampstead_blue |
That is a lot of support for a return to a more centrist party.
It is interesting how the MP's view the policy of 1 member 1 vote for the leader.
Maybe they don't give that any credibility or feel that it has been skewed by Corbyn's team and Momentum. Is it £3 to join so you can vote?
It will be a good thing as it will hopefully bring both parties back to the centre ground. |
Yeah I hate having actual choice at the ballot box. |  |
| |
| How will this work? on 11:18 - Mar 12 with 2873 views | Steve_M |
| How will this work? on 10:55 - Mar 12 by chicoazul |
Labour got their biggest share of the vote in ages at the last election, Corbyn is wildly popular. Blairism is dead in the Labour Party and it aint coming back as long as Comrades Milne Lansmann and McDonnell hold the reigns of power.
I predict the TIG guys will get wiped out by Labour at the next gen elec. |
I'm not sure that Corbyn is wildly popular; the 2017 election was a Brexit election and studied ambiguity from Labour increased their vote share. Failing to provide an opposition to the worst Government in living memory shows that many people have seen through Corbyn now and don't like what they see. |  |
| |
| How will this work? on 11:28 - Mar 12 with 2836 views | StokieBlue |
| How will this work? on 11:11 - Mar 12 by ZedRodgers |
I think something like this was inevitable given the fractious tone at the moment but people could be forgiven for assuming it's going to be more structured re-run of the last coup.
I'm not at all surprised by the numbers. Independent are reporting "more than 150 MPs and Lords", with The Times suggesting "about 80 MPs". I think I would have expected more than 80 MPs to attend.
In my opinion, championing the likes of Mandelson and Blunkett as figureheads of 'where we should be' represents the party moving backwards, not forwards. Whilst I would hope Watson's reasoning is solely to prevent further splits, I think cynics are always going to question the timing and motivation behind this. I've already seen various things along the lines of the website for this group being registered on the same day as the TIG's website. It's things like which will feed scepticism.
If it's really about shaping policy and direction as Watson has said, the group needs to be very transparent about what it is exactly that they disagree with or want to see more of. If that transpires, I would be happy to take this at face value. |
Thanks Zed, contrary to the belief of some I was genuinely interested to hear from someone “inside”.
So as it stands you’re hopeful that it will be an internal group who would like to see some policies shifted more towards the centre and this will facilitate that discussion. I think if that’s the case then it would probably benefit Labour. I know they made huge gains at the last election but I think they will need some more centrist policies if they want to get the final 60+ seats they need. I imagine some of the cynics you mention would see this as the first stage of trying to loosen the grip of Momentum on policy direction?
SB | |
| Avatar - IC410 - Tadpoles Nebula |
| |
| How will this work? on 11:28 - Mar 12 with 2833 views | ZedRodgers |
| How will this work? on 11:18 - Mar 12 by Steve_M |
I'm not sure that Corbyn is wildly popular; the 2017 election was a Brexit election and studied ambiguity from Labour increased their vote share. Failing to provide an opposition to the worst Government in living memory shows that many people have seen through Corbyn now and don't like what they see. |
Quite presumptuous of you to say votes in 2017 was cast for Brexit reasons only.
I can understand that a lot of people are opposed to the programme Corbyn wanted to put in place - Why is it so difficult for some people to accept that millions of people were desperate for it and probably still feel the same way despite any contrived appraisals of the man's character since?
You're entitled to your opinion that "people have seen through Corbyn" if that's your own individual belief, but I'm not sure what you're basing your assessment of the electorate on in order to use "people" in plural context. Please advise. | |
| |
| How will this work? on 11:32 - Mar 12 with 2813 views | BrixtonBlue |
| How will this work? on 10:51 - Mar 12 by StokieBlue |
I’m sorry but that’s nonsense. I've not posted anything about JC or Labour for weeks because it's pointless. Anything at all is considered an attack.
There are contradictory articles on the subject everywhere so I wanted to know the insiders view. MPs say all kinds of stuff - they are hardly going to say they are building another power base are they. Why are you upset about someone wanting to get the opinion of people with more information?
It’s responses like yours that have made this board much less enjoyable than it used to be. Even the slightest political inquiry is immediately attacked as agenda driven or bashing.
You've just confirmed what many people feel about the board now. To say you provide balance is certainly something that you could add to your stand-up routine.
SB [Post edited 12 Mar 2019 10:52]
|
I was just offering my opinion. Sorry you didn't like it. No need to be rude though.
"I've not posted anything about JC or Labour for weeks because it's pointless."
You posted about JC/Labour in the "Oh Jeremy" thread 5 days ago. [Post edited 12 Mar 2019 11:38]
| |
| |
| How will this work? on 11:37 - Mar 12 with 2793 views | Pinewoodblue |
| How will this work? on 11:28 - Mar 12 by ZedRodgers |
Quite presumptuous of you to say votes in 2017 was cast for Brexit reasons only.
I can understand that a lot of people are opposed to the programme Corbyn wanted to put in place - Why is it so difficult for some people to accept that millions of people were desperate for it and probably still feel the same way despite any contrived appraisals of the man's character since?
You're entitled to your opinion that "people have seen through Corbyn" if that's your own individual belief, but I'm not sure what you're basing your assessment of the electorate on in order to use "people" in plural context. Please advise. |
Many Labour MPs find themselves at odds with the party membership, the latter having moved to the left . How many of this new grouping are likely to face deselection? |  |
| |
| How will this work? on 11:44 - Mar 12 with 2771 views | lowhouseblue |
once we get past the immediate brexit crisis then things will start to happen. it's mass exodus of mps v. watson coup v. mcdonnell coup. which will happen first - very exciting. |  |
| And so as the loose-bowelled pigeon of time swoops low over the unsuspecting tourist of destiny, and the flatulent skunk of fate wanders into the air-conditioning system of eternity, I notice it's the end of the show |
| |
| How will this work? on 11:46 - Mar 12 with 2756 views | hampstead_blue |
| How will this work? on 10:55 - Mar 12 by chicoazul |
Labour got their biggest share of the vote in ages at the last election, Corbyn is wildly popular. Blairism is dead in the Labour Party and it aint coming back as long as Comrades Milne Lansmann and McDonnell hold the reigns of power.
I predict the TIG guys will get wiped out by Labour at the next gen elec. |
I agree that Blairism is dead. Thank-god for that!
A hard left government though isn't really progressive. Does it not hark back to a political theory (socialism/marxism/communism) which has a rather poor track record.
Hard right is equally unappealing and divisive. | |
| Assumption is to make an ass out of you and me.
Those who assume they know you, when they don't are just guessing.
Those who assume and insist they know are daft and in denial.
Those who assume, insist, and deny the truth are plain stupid.
Those who assume, insist, deny the truth and tell YOU they know you (when they don't) have an IQ in the range of 35-49.
| | Poll: | Best Blackpool goal |
| |
| How will this work? on 11:49 - Mar 12 with 2726 views | BrixtonBlue |
| How will this work? on 11:44 - Mar 12 by lowhouseblue |
once we get past the immediate brexit crisis then things will start to happen. it's mass exodus of mps v. watson coup v. mcdonnell coup. which will happen first - very exciting. |
No surprise you're taking this view. This is what I thought Stokers was hinting at (apologies Stokers, I've got cynical in my old age). | |
| |
| How will this work? on 11:53 - Mar 12 with 2703 views | lowhouseblue |
| How will this work? on 11:49 - Mar 12 by BrixtonBlue |
No surprise you're taking this view. This is what I thought Stokers was hinting at (apologies Stokers, I've got cynical in my old age). |
and with patience we'll find out who's right. as I've said before, one way or another, corbyn won't see out 2020. the heady, clappy, chanty, glory days are gone and we have only the death throws of the regime to look forward to now. | |
| And so as the loose-bowelled pigeon of time swoops low over the unsuspecting tourist of destiny, and the flatulent skunk of fate wanders into the air-conditioning system of eternity, I notice it's the end of the show |
| |
| How will this work? on 12:00 - Mar 12 with 2682 views | StokieBlue |
| How will this work? on 11:49 - Mar 12 by BrixtonBlue |
No surprise you're taking this view. This is what I thought Stokers was hinting at (apologies Stokers, I've got cynical in my old age). |
I wasn't hinting at anything, I wanted to know if this was a likely outcome. I honestly wanted to know the thoughts of people within the party. No need to apologise, it's often hard to judge things with the written word as the only context.
SB | |
| Avatar - IC410 - Tadpoles Nebula |
| |
| How will this work? on 12:11 - Mar 12 with 2661 views | ZedRodgers |
| How will this work? on 11:28 - Mar 12 by StokieBlue |
Thanks Zed, contrary to the belief of some I was genuinely interested to hear from someone “inside”.
So as it stands you’re hopeful that it will be an internal group who would like to see some policies shifted more towards the centre and this will facilitate that discussion. I think if that’s the case then it would probably benefit Labour. I know they made huge gains at the last election but I think they will need some more centrist policies if they want to get the final 60+ seats they need. I imagine some of the cynics you mention would see this as the first stage of trying to loosen the grip of Momentum on policy direction?
SB |
I don't think I could admit to being "hopeful" when the group are championing the voices of Mandelson and Blunkett. That's just not where I want to be personally, but I can appreciate some people look at that era as some kind of benchmark for sensible politics. Things were certainly less polarised then.
I'm happy to acknowledge that if this formation prevents further fractures and curbs the divisive Corbynista vs Blairite thing then that can only be a good thing.
What I will struggle with is the notion that they attempting to loosen the grip of a left wing faction on policy direction. The way decisions on policy have been opened up to members should be embraced by everybody. Last week I returned the suggestions I was invited to submit on what should be included in the next manifesto. Members have been encouraged to meet with their CLPs to discuss their views and submit further ideas collectively to shape policy. It's hard for me to comprehend how this group are under the impression that the forum for presenting their opinion on things doesn't already exist. I can see how it must be difficult for members who don't share the views of the leadership to know where they stand but I can't agree with any suggestion that a Momentum-sponsored opening up of the party to it's members is in any way cordoning off policy direction for anybody.
Yes, there are people that are unwilling to listen to others that in many cases verge on being abusive, but this is evident in any area of politics. The political atmosphere on show in the internet sewer is very different to what I experience at the quite mild-mannered CLP meetings I attend. The range of opinions there always reflects the same broad disagreements as Watson/Corbyn would (or even Umunna/Skinner), but I don't think any of the 'centrists' I speak to there would say their voice is unheard or that they don't have the forum to put it across.
I know that a good percentage of the electorate are passionately opposed to Labour's post-2015 policies and that watering them down would likely be the best chance for those very same people to re-consider their dismissal of them. But the implication that 'taking back the reigns' of the most socially democratic transformation of a political party I've ever seen on the basis that the members views won't get them elected is something which will never sit well with me. | |
| |
| |
By continuing to use the site, you agree to our use of cookies and to abide by our Terms and Conditions.
