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Something really needs to be done about this but what? 10:37 - Jun 19 with 10025 viewsStokieBlue

The fake news is winning and it’s going to become a serious problem over the next decade if nothing is done:

https://www.theguardian.com/society/2019/jun/19/survey-shows-crisis-of-confidenc

“A global survey of attitudes towards science has revealed the scale of the crisis of confidence in vaccines in Europe, showing that only 59% of people in western Europe and 50% in the east think vaccines are safe, compared with 79% worldwide.”

79% is bad enough but only 59% in Europe (less in Eastern Europe) is truly shocking. Conversely 95% of people in South Asia think vaccines are safe and effective.

It’s also interesting to see the difference between places where diseases run rife and cause misery and the rich Western nations which have benefitted from the longer term effects of vacinations and no longer see the impact of these diseases.

Out of sight, out of mind:

“In developing countries, where deadly diseases like diphtheria, measles or whooping cough are more common, I’ve seen mothers queue for hours to make sure their child is vaccinated,” said Seth Berkley, the chief executive of Gavi, the Vaccine Alliance. “It is in wealthier countries, where we no longer see the terrible impact these preventable diseases can have, that people are more reticent. This reticence is a luxury we can ill afford.”

He’s hit the nail on the head there.

SB

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Something really needs to be done about this but what? on 10:48 - Jun 19 with 2813 viewsSteve_M

It needs education and, in particular, the teaching of critical thinking and the ability to evaluate sources properly. It won't be a rapid process but I'm not sure there's any other solution.
[Post edited 19 Jun 2019 11:13]

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Something really needs to be done about this but what? on 10:58 - Jun 19 with 2791 viewsStokieBlue

Something really needs to be done about this but what? on 10:48 - Jun 19 by Steve_M

It needs education and, in particular, the teaching of critical thinking and the ability to evaluate sources properly. It won't be a rapid process but I'm not sure there's any other solution.
[Post edited 19 Jun 2019 11:13]


Agree entirely on the teaching of critical thinking, I've mentioned it a few times but there doesn't seem to be much traction for it.

It's going to be essential going forward.

SB

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Something really needs to be done about this but what? on 11:00 - Jun 19 with 2789 viewsGavTWTD

I'm concerned that deepfake videos are going to make it harder to work out what is real and what is fake.

https://www.vice.com/en_uk/article/ywyxex/deepfake-of-mark-zuckerberg-facebook-f

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Something really needs to be done about this but what? on 11:02 - Jun 19 with 2773 viewsSWGF

Something really needs to be done about this but what? on 10:48 - Jun 19 by Steve_M

It needs education and, in particular, the teaching of critical thinking and the ability to evaluate sources properly. It won't be a rapid process but I'm not sure there's any other solution.
[Post edited 19 Jun 2019 11:13]


The sheer number of people who simply share or retweet something without checking its veracity is scary & saddening at the same time. And, once they've seen/believed it, the damage is done and can very seldom be reversed by facts/evidence to the contrary.

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Something really needs to be done about this but what? on 11:03 - Jun 19 with 2766 viewsBlueBadger

Something really needs to be done about this but what? on 10:58 - Jun 19 by StokieBlue

Agree entirely on the teaching of critical thinking, I've mentioned it a few times but there doesn't seem to be much traction for it.

It's going to be essential going forward.

SB


Particularly amongst prominent thinkers at government level. Gove, for example, wanted 'patriotic history' taught rather than actual skills which benefit historians(and many, many other professionals) such as source evaluation and significance of evidence.

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Something really needs to be done about this but what? on 11:04 - Jun 19 with 2763 viewsStokieBlue

Something really needs to be done about this but what? on 11:00 - Jun 19 by GavTWTD

I'm concerned that deepfake videos are going to make it harder to work out what is real and what is fake.

https://www.vice.com/en_uk/article/ywyxex/deepfake-of-mark-zuckerberg-facebook-f


This was essentially the basis of an argument on here the other day. Some people said there was basically no evidence they would accept because everything could be faked (it was on a different subject).

I guess the only way to really know is if you watch the video, to then go and examine the base source material yourself (ie. the published study the video is based on). Realistically though the vast majority of people aren't going to do that so it's a massive problem.

SB

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Something really needs to be done about this but what? on 11:09 - Jun 19 with 2748 viewsglasso

The flip side of the same coin is that people have lost faith in the press so much that they instantly disbelieve anything they read there and seek other sources for their information. That in itself is not necessarily a bad thing, but it just causes people to seek out things that reinforce their own opinion rather than reading things that give a different point of view.

If you're one of the people who says 'I don't believe anything I read in The Sun', you're just as bad as someone who says 'I believe everything I read in the Sun.'

Critical thinking is key, but most of the people who seem to think they do that seem to end up just disbelieving the official line on everything, which isn't critical thinking at all.

I know people who seem to think every single terrorist attack is a false flag operation. If you question them on it, their reasoning is that there have been proven false flags in the past. That's like saying every tackle on the football field is a foul because there was a foul in the last game.

People take an opinion (i.e. 'the press lies') and then apply it to absolutely everything.
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Something really needs to be done about this but what? on 11:11 - Jun 19 with 2732 viewsBlueBadger

Something really needs to be done about this but what? on 11:09 - Jun 19 by glasso

The flip side of the same coin is that people have lost faith in the press so much that they instantly disbelieve anything they read there and seek other sources for their information. That in itself is not necessarily a bad thing, but it just causes people to seek out things that reinforce their own opinion rather than reading things that give a different point of view.

If you're one of the people who says 'I don't believe anything I read in The Sun', you're just as bad as someone who says 'I believe everything I read in the Sun.'

Critical thinking is key, but most of the people who seem to think they do that seem to end up just disbelieving the official line on everything, which isn't critical thinking at all.

I know people who seem to think every single terrorist attack is a false flag operation. If you question them on it, their reasoning is that there have been proven false flags in the past. That's like saying every tackle on the football field is a foul because there was a foul in the last game.

People take an opinion (i.e. 'the press lies') and then apply it to absolutely everything.


As Steve mentioned below, it's all about be able to evaluate the reliability of your source. In your example, the Sun is a definitel example of an unreliable source of cedible, unbiased information.

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Something really needs to be done about this but what? on 11:13 - Jun 19 with 2724 viewslowhouseblue

Something really needs to be done about this but what? on 10:48 - Jun 19 by Steve_M

It needs education and, in particular, the teaching of critical thinking and the ability to evaluate sources properly. It won't be a rapid process but I'm not sure there's any other solution.
[Post edited 19 Jun 2019 11:13]


we also need a kite mark system for quality journalism and websites. people need help in assessing sources. like hygiene scores on restaurant doors.

And so as the loose-bowelled pigeon of time swoops low over the unsuspecting tourist of destiny, and the flatulent skunk of fate wanders into the air-conditioning system of eternity, I notice it's the end of the show

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Something really needs to be done about this but what? on 11:14 - Jun 19 with 2725 viewsStokieBlue

Something really needs to be done about this but what? on 11:09 - Jun 19 by glasso

The flip side of the same coin is that people have lost faith in the press so much that they instantly disbelieve anything they read there and seek other sources for their information. That in itself is not necessarily a bad thing, but it just causes people to seek out things that reinforce their own opinion rather than reading things that give a different point of view.

If you're one of the people who says 'I don't believe anything I read in The Sun', you're just as bad as someone who says 'I believe everything I read in the Sun.'

Critical thinking is key, but most of the people who seem to think they do that seem to end up just disbelieving the official line on everything, which isn't critical thinking at all.

I know people who seem to think every single terrorist attack is a false flag operation. If you question them on it, their reasoning is that there have been proven false flags in the past. That's like saying every tackle on the football field is a foul because there was a foul in the last game.

People take an opinion (i.e. 'the press lies') and then apply it to absolutely everything.


You've obviously not been here long - there are a group on here who think everything is a false flag as well based on exactly the reasoning you provided.

Flawed thinking but any attempt to show that is met with more iterations of the same flawed nonsense.

SB

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Something really needs to be done about this but what? on 11:17 - Jun 19 with 2706 viewsglasso

Something really needs to be done about this but what? on 11:11 - Jun 19 by BlueBadger

As Steve mentioned below, it's all about be able to evaluate the reliability of your source. In your example, the Sun is a definitel example of an unreliable source of cedible, unbiased information.


That's exactly my point. The Sun has form for printing stuff that isn't true - that's correct.

It also has lots and lots and lots of form for printing stuff that is true. If you really think as you flick through that paper and there's more untrue stuff in it than true, then you're crazy.

You should absolutely treat that newspaper with more scepticism than another, more reputable paper, but if you write off something printed in it with no more reason than 'it's in The Sun', then you're doing EXACTLY the same thing as someone who instantly believes it's true because it's in The Sun. That's not critical thinking at all.

If you read something in The Sun, treat it with scepticism because it's in The Sun and go away and do some more reading around the subject and decide that you don't believe it, then you're better than 99% of people out there and probably won't ever fall for fake news.
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Something really needs to be done about this but what? on 11:18 - Jun 19 with 2701 viewsStokieBlue

Something really needs to be done about this but what? on 11:13 - Jun 19 by lowhouseblue

we also need a kite mark system for quality journalism and websites. people need help in assessing sources. like hygiene scores on restaurant doors.


This is a nice idea but it would run the risk of people just saying the scorers are in league with the governments. It's certainly worth a try though.

This is attributed to Mark Twain (although it's unproven):

"Its easier to fool people than to convince them they have been fooled"

It's certainly true today.

SB

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Something really needs to be done about this but what? on 11:19 - Jun 19 with 2698 viewsBloomBlue

It's because too many people believe everything on the internet is real.

Find a link to something and people automatically assume it's real.

You see it on this site, somebody will state something and others will counter argue unless you can send a link to a website it's not fact.

We educate kids with the internet and people now take it as the sole source of it being real, 'it's in wikipedia so it has to be correct'.

That's why people find it so much easier to con people using the internet.
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Something really needs to be done about this but what? on 11:20 - Jun 19 with 2675 viewsgiant_stow

Something really needs to be done about this but what? on 11:13 - Jun 19 by lowhouseblue

we also need a kite mark system for quality journalism and websites. people need help in assessing sources. like hygiene scores on restaurant doors.


Someone's already set that up and Initially labelled the daily mail as unsafe - happened a few months back, can't remember who. Think the Mail kicked off and got the label changed in the end.

Edit: Here we go: https://www.theguardian.com/media/2019/jan/23/dont-trust-daily-mail-website-micr

Newsguard.
[Post edited 19 Jun 2019 11:22]

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Something really needs to be done about this but what? on 11:21 - Jun 19 with 2671 viewsCoachRob

Something really needs to be done about this but what? on 10:48 - Jun 19 by Steve_M

It needs education and, in particular, the teaching of critical thinking and the ability to evaluate sources properly. It won't be a rapid process but I'm not sure there's any other solution.
[Post edited 19 Jun 2019 11:13]


Andrew Wakefield was a medical doctor and his discredited research was published in The Lancet. The temptation is shut down any research outside of the accepted paradigm but this is fundamentally to misinterpret what science is and how it evolves. (Kuhn)

I remember reading a opinion piece from a researcher regarding negative citations so when you disagree with the work in essence you down vote it. The problem is the tyranny of the majority, groupthink, leading to a dominant paradigm disregarding an important shift in thinking.

I agree with Stokie and Steve M there is a problem but with so many papers being released how do you police this?
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Something really needs to be done about this but what? on 11:21 - Jun 19 with 2667 viewsjeera

Something really needs to be done about this but what? on 11:19 - Jun 19 by BloomBlue

It's because too many people believe everything on the internet is real.

Find a link to something and people automatically assume it's real.

You see it on this site, somebody will state something and others will counter argue unless you can send a link to a website it's not fact.

We educate kids with the internet and people now take it as the sole source of it being real, 'it's in wikipedia so it has to be correct'.

That's why people find it so much easier to con people using the internet.


It's not the case that posters won't believe something unless it's linked 'to a website'.

People want to see evidence, and so will sometimes expect claims to be backed up with proper evidence.

It's not complicated.

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Something really needs to be done about this but what? on 11:22 - Jun 19 with 2661 viewsBlueBadger

Something really needs to be done about this but what? on 11:19 - Jun 19 by BloomBlue

It's because too many people believe everything on the internet is real.

Find a link to something and people automatically assume it's real.

You see it on this site, somebody will state something and others will counter argue unless you can send a link to a website it's not fact.

We educate kids with the internet and people now take it as the sole source of it being real, 'it's in wikipedia so it has to be correct'.

That's why people find it so much easier to con people using the internet.


...which is how we ended up with Trump and Brexit.

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Something really needs to be done about this but what? on 11:23 - Jun 19 with 2650 viewsBlueBadger

Something really needs to be done about this but what? on 11:21 - Jun 19 by CoachRob

Andrew Wakefield was a medical doctor and his discredited research was published in The Lancet. The temptation is shut down any research outside of the accepted paradigm but this is fundamentally to misinterpret what science is and how it evolves. (Kuhn)

I remember reading a opinion piece from a researcher regarding negative citations so when you disagree with the work in essence you down vote it. The problem is the tyranny of the majority, groupthink, leading to a dominant paradigm disregarding an important shift in thinking.

I agree with Stokie and Steve M there is a problem but with so many papers being released how do you police this?


Peer review and Cohrane meta-analysis.
You question hypothesis, methodology and findings and attempt to repeat results.
You look at the body of evidence as a whole.

The scientific community isn't, by and large, the problem here. The problem is a media largely staffed by humanities graduates who lack sufficient understanding of how to interpret and evaluate results and a public who are rely on these outlets as primary sources of information.
[Post edited 19 Jun 2019 11:25]

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Something really needs to be done about this but what? on 11:25 - Jun 19 with 2634 viewslowhouseblue

Something really needs to be done about this but what? on 11:19 - Jun 19 by BloomBlue

It's because too many people believe everything on the internet is real.

Find a link to something and people automatically assume it's real.

You see it on this site, somebody will state something and others will counter argue unless you can send a link to a website it's not fact.

We educate kids with the internet and people now take it as the sole source of it being real, 'it's in wikipedia so it has to be correct'.

That's why people find it so much easier to con people using the internet.


there is also an innate psychological desire to believe conspiracies. they are away of protecting your world view even when the evidence is against it, of explaining away uncomfortable stuff, there is membership of a group of true believers, and it gives the person status cos they know secret stuff. in the end lots of people just want to believe conspiracies.

and the false flag narrative is the most evil rhetorical device yet invented - it's just away to shamelessly ignore all evidence.

And so as the loose-bowelled pigeon of time swoops low over the unsuspecting tourist of destiny, and the flatulent skunk of fate wanders into the air-conditioning system of eternity, I notice it's the end of the show

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Something really needs to be done about this but what? on 11:27 - Jun 19 with 2621 viewsStokieBlue

Something really needs to be done about this but what? on 11:23 - Jun 19 by BlueBadger

Peer review and Cohrane meta-analysis.
You question hypothesis, methodology and findings and attempt to repeat results.
You look at the body of evidence as a whole.

The scientific community isn't, by and large, the problem here. The problem is a media largely staffed by humanities graduates who lack sufficient understanding of how to interpret and evaluate results and a public who are rely on these outlets as primary sources of information.
[Post edited 19 Jun 2019 11:25]


To expand on this there is an issue in that some people (one very vocal on here) totally distrust the peer review process and thus generally dismissed it as valid evidence of something being correct.

You are entirely right on the reporting - science reporting in general is absolutely shocking.

SB
[Post edited 19 Jun 2019 11:31]

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Something really needs to be done about this but what? on 11:35 - Jun 19 with 2569 viewsBlueBadger

If I might do a bit of self-promotion here, here's a bit of a thing I did for a Facething page what I run.

https://www.facebook.com/Fakehardmenfakequotes/photos/a.299614740918973/30610961

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Something really needs to be done about this but what? on 11:41 - Jun 19 with 2544 viewsSpruceMoose

Something really needs to be done about this but what? on 11:19 - Jun 19 by BloomBlue

It's because too many people believe everything on the internet is real.

Find a link to something and people automatically assume it's real.

You see it on this site, somebody will state something and others will counter argue unless you can send a link to a website it's not fact.

We educate kids with the internet and people now take it as the sole source of it being real, 'it's in wikipedia so it has to be correct'.

That's why people find it so much easier to con people using the internet.


Kids? This isn't about kids. Why is it mostly old people who spread and share stupid fake news on sites like Facebook? Most kids are far more internet savvy than your average 55 to 85 year old.

Bored of you blaming young people for the stuff old duffers have ruined all the time.

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Something really needs to be done about this but what? on 11:46 - Jun 19 with 2522 viewsBlueBadger

Something really needs to be done about this but what? on 11:21 - Jun 19 by CoachRob

Andrew Wakefield was a medical doctor and his discredited research was published in The Lancet. The temptation is shut down any research outside of the accepted paradigm but this is fundamentally to misinterpret what science is and how it evolves. (Kuhn)

I remember reading a opinion piece from a researcher regarding negative citations so when you disagree with the work in essence you down vote it. The problem is the tyranny of the majority, groupthink, leading to a dominant paradigm disregarding an important shift in thinking.

I agree with Stokie and Steve M there is a problem but with so many papers being released how do you police this?


The other thing that the anti-vaxx crowd often forget is that Wakefield wa sin the pay of a drug compnay seeking to boost their profits by discrediting a rival, superior, product.

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Something really needs to be done about this but what? on 11:53 - Jun 19 with 2506 viewsVillageGreen

Something really needs to be done about this but what? on 11:41 - Jun 19 by SpruceMoose

Kids? This isn't about kids. Why is it mostly old people who spread and share stupid fake news on sites like Facebook? Most kids are far more internet savvy than your average 55 to 85 year old.

Bored of you blaming young people for the stuff old duffers have ruined all the time.


Their fault for not appreciating what we worked our tails off to give them.
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Something really needs to be done about this but what? on 11:55 - Jun 19 with 2502 viewswkj

Something really needs to be done about this but what? on 11:53 - Jun 19 by VillageGreen

Their fault for not appreciating what we worked our tails off to give them.


Thanks Beard

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