| Interesting proposals for the shipping industry 11:07 - Nov 11 with 1572 views | StokieBlue |
So changing the entire merchant fleet is going to take decades and there doesn't seem to be an agreed way to make a more environmentally container vessel at the moment.
The last round of regulations were enacted to cut air pollution but rather than reduce the emissions devices were fitted to send the emissions into the sea rather than the air:
https://www.independent.co.uk/environment/shipping-pollution-sea-open-loop-scrub
Given that and the fact that it's unrealistic to change the entire fleet in any reasonable time these proposals seem rather good:
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-50348321
Basically it's a call for a 20% reduction in the speed of shipping.
"The report found that cutting ship speed by 20% would cut sulphur and nitrogen oxides by around 24%. There are also significant reductions in black carbon, which are tiny black particles contained in the smoke from ship exhausts."
"This speed limit would cut underwater noise by 66% and reduce the chances of whale collisions by 78%."
"What gives campaigners hope is that shipping has already tried out the concept of going slow - back in 2008, during the global financial crisis, cargo ships slowed down to cut costs. With average speeds dropping by 12% this helped cut daily fuel consumption by 27%, which equated to a significant drop in emissions."
Given the ease at which this could be implemented and the fact that waiting 20% longer to ship slow goods isn't really a huge deal it's an interesting proposal.
Would be interested to see what mariners think - perhaps Newcy will be around later.
SB
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| Avatar - IC410 - Tadpoles Nebula |
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| Interesting proposals for the shipping industry on 12:06 - Nov 11 with 1523 views | Darth_Koont |
Yes, it's a good and realistic step. I take the point of the Maersk guy who have no doubt invested in different fuels, better engines, engine management and emission control systems as well as fuel-efficient hull design and propulsion to already get down to international maritime's agreed levels while also maintaining the speed.
But there's no other way of lifting the whole industry to these levels given the huge investment needed per ship and the margins getting tighter.
The costs of longer transit and some environmental impact of say increased warehousing space may be passed down the chain to distributors, retailers and eventually the consumer. But all in all it's worth it - and is a good lesson that for many industries and markets it will be about making sacrifices and changes to how we work and live rather than assuming technology alone can solve this. In the first instance, it has to also be about consuming less and scaling back on what is otherwise technically possible in an economy or market free from environmental concerns.
There is a human cost though. Bad news for Newcy and others at sea as it likely means more days and weeks at sea. |  |
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| Interesting proposals for the shipping industry on 12:12 - Nov 11 with 1509 views | StokieBlue |
| Interesting proposals for the shipping industry on 12:06 - Nov 11 by Darth_Koont |
Yes, it's a good and realistic step. I take the point of the Maersk guy who have no doubt invested in different fuels, better engines, engine management and emission control systems as well as fuel-efficient hull design and propulsion to already get down to international maritime's agreed levels while also maintaining the speed.
But there's no other way of lifting the whole industry to these levels given the huge investment needed per ship and the margins getting tighter.
The costs of longer transit and some environmental impact of say increased warehousing space may be passed down the chain to distributors, retailers and eventually the consumer. But all in all it's worth it - and is a good lesson that for many industries and markets it will be about making sacrifices and changes to how we work and live rather than assuming technology alone can solve this. In the first instance, it has to also be about consuming less and scaling back on what is otherwise technically possible in an economy or market free from environmental concerns.
There is a human cost though. Bad news for Newcy and others at sea as it likely means more days and weeks at sea. |
Perhaps companies like Maersk could go faster as long as their emissions remained in line with the benchmark for everyone at 20% slower speeds?
That way they can get business that others can't if people want quicker transport times and are rewarded for their investment. It could also incentivise others to invest and make the required changes.
I don't know if that's realistic - just throwing it out there.
SB | |
| Avatar - IC410 - Tadpoles Nebula |
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| Interesting proposals for the shipping industry on 12:26 - Nov 11 with 1487 views | Darth_Koont |
| Interesting proposals for the shipping industry on 12:12 - Nov 11 by StokieBlue |
Perhaps companies like Maersk could go faster as long as their emissions remained in line with the benchmark for everyone at 20% slower speeds?
That way they can get business that others can't if people want quicker transport times and are rewarded for their investment. It could also incentivise others to invest and make the required changes.
I don't know if that's realistic - just throwing it out there.
SB |
I'm guessing there will be special dispensations available as in theory some of the latest ships could have a fuel and emissions sweet spot that's over the speed limit.
But that would likely be a small percentage.
You're right that it could mean a competitive edge that drives investment to get "greener". But there is the possibility that this will mean vessel owners are now less likely to convert to cleaner fuels, emissions control systems etc. because a) they'll hit the new level and b) investment becomes even tougher if the slower speeds affect margins. So that might take some political involvement and even use of taxpayer money to help resolve. | |
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| Interesting proposals for the shipping industry on 12:51 - Nov 11 with 1442 views | NewcyBlue |
In the Gulf of Aden, and the High Risk Area, speeds are increased due to the threat of piracy.
Also, some of the ocean currents can run at a fair rate too. I do plan our voyages using the currents as best as possible.
We have clean burn engines that produce a fair bit of soot, and to do soot blowing we have to go at speed.
We also have steam and power turbines, which are operated when we are running at speed as well. With these on we can stop all auxiliary generators, thus reducing our overall fuel consumption. Some of our boats also have shaft generators, which are like a dynamo for a bicycle light.
We are having open loop scrubbers fitted next month. I’m not overly impressed by that.
More time at sea would be welcomed. I prefer it to being in port. |  |
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| Interesting proposals for the shipping industry on 18:56 - Nov 11 with 1330 views | Mullet |
| Interesting proposals for the shipping industry on 12:51 - Nov 11 by NewcyBlue |
In the Gulf of Aden, and the High Risk Area, speeds are increased due to the threat of piracy.
Also, some of the ocean currents can run at a fair rate too. I do plan our voyages using the currents as best as possible.
We have clean burn engines that produce a fair bit of soot, and to do soot blowing we have to go at speed.
We also have steam and power turbines, which are operated when we are running at speed as well. With these on we can stop all auxiliary generators, thus reducing our overall fuel consumption. Some of our boats also have shaft generators, which are like a dynamo for a bicycle light.
We are having open loop scrubbers fitted next month. I’m not overly impressed by that.
More time at sea would be welcomed. I prefer it to being in port. |
Do you prefer your scrubbers to have tighter loops? |  |
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| Interesting proposals for the shipping industry on 19:30 - Nov 11 with 1303 views | Swansea_Blue |
| Interesting proposals for the shipping industry on 18:56 - Nov 11 by Mullet |
Do you prefer your scrubbers to have tighter loops? |
Presumably depends on how big the shaft generator is  |  |
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| Interesting proposals for the shipping industry on 19:32 - Nov 11 with 1297 views | Mullet |
| Interesting proposals for the shipping industry on 19:30 - Nov 11 by Swansea_Blue |
Presumably depends on how big the shaft generator is |
Anchor. | |
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| (No subject) (n/t) on 19:42 - Nov 11 with 1289 views | azuremerlangus |
| Interesting proposals for the shipping industry on 12:51 - Nov 11 by NewcyBlue |
In the Gulf of Aden, and the High Risk Area, speeds are increased due to the threat of piracy.
Also, some of the ocean currents can run at a fair rate too. I do plan our voyages using the currents as best as possible.
We have clean burn engines that produce a fair bit of soot, and to do soot blowing we have to go at speed.
We also have steam and power turbines, which are operated when we are running at speed as well. With these on we can stop all auxiliary generators, thus reducing our overall fuel consumption. Some of our boats also have shaft generators, which are like a dynamo for a bicycle light.
We are having open loop scrubbers fitted next month. I’m not overly impressed by that.
More time at sea would be welcomed. I prefer it to being in port. |
Open-loop scrubbers were ditched some years ago on our 2-stroke engines due to the oil carryover not meeting MARPOL regs. It was a problem we couldn’t resolve so we ended up going over to 4-stroke engines instead. [Post edited 11 Nov 2019 19:46]
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| Interesting proposals for the shipping industry on 19:44 - Nov 11 with 1283 views | jeera |
| Interesting proposals for the shipping industry on 18:56 - Nov 11 by Mullet |
Do you prefer your scrubbers to have tighter loops? |
Well, who doesn't. |  |
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| Interesting proposals for the shipping industry on 19:56 - Nov 11 with 1262 views | BloomBlue |
Surely converting them all to sails only would be the best option ? |  | | |
| Interesting proposals for the shipping industry on 20:10 - Nov 11 with 1242 views | Darth_Koont |
| Interesting proposals for the shipping industry on 19:56 - Nov 11 by BloomBlue |
Surely converting them all to sails only would be the best option ? |
Have you seen the size of a container vessel? And even if that was technically possible we'd need to build triple the amount of ships to cope with the slower speeds and wind/tide issues that would mean journeys took months instead of weeks.
Not saying we shouldn't produce/consume less anyway but we'd not even scratch the surface of CO2 and emissions by going after the maritime industry too harshly. And arguably just hamper ourselves in the efforts we can make around the world. | |
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| (No subject) (n/t) on 20:18 - Nov 11 with 1227 views | NewcyBlue |
| (No subject) (n/t) on 19:42 - Nov 11 by azuremerlangus |
Open-loop scrubbers were ditched some years ago on our 2-stroke engines due to the oil carryover not meeting MARPOL regs. It was a problem we couldn’t resolve so we ended up going over to 4-stroke engines instead. [Post edited 11 Nov 2019 19:46]
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I don’t know too much about the scrubbers we are having fitted. I imagine there will be a course in the shipyard. Or a PowerPoint presentation lasting a couple of hours.
Apparently we’ve gone for a hybrid system that can be converted to closed loop later on. Although I would guess that all open loop systems can, so it’s probably “corporate responsibility” bollox.
Are you on board or at home at the moment?
We have just left Singapore heading for Hong Kong. | |
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| Interesting proposals for the shipping industry on 20:22 - Nov 11 with 1220 views | Ryorry |
| Interesting proposals for the shipping industry on 20:10 - Nov 11 by Darth_Koont |
Have you seen the size of a container vessel? And even if that was technically possible we'd need to build triple the amount of ships to cope with the slower speeds and wind/tide issues that would mean journeys took months instead of weeks.
Not saying we shouldn't produce/consume less anyway but we'd not even scratch the surface of CO2 and emissions by going after the maritime industry too harshly. And arguably just hamper ourselves in the efforts we can make around the world. |
Plenty of new sail technology ready and waiting - had a link to another article on this a few weeks back but can't find it at mo, will try later. Meanwhile -
https://www.lowtechmagazine.com/2007/09/sailing-ship-re.html |  |
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| Interesting proposals for the shipping industry on 09:55 - Nov 12 with 1078 views | Darth_Koont |
But like saying we'll all start driving solar-powered cars or at least putting solar panels on our cars because the technology is ready and waiting. But it's not practical or economical. Maybe one day but like Newcy says the clear "win" at the moment is switching to LNG on new builds and retrofits. | |
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| Interesting proposals for the shipping industry on 12:56 - Nov 12 with 1037 views | ElephantintheRoom |
Surely there is little interest in the shipping industry to become tree huggers? If the poles melt and there is more water we will need more ships? |  |
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