| At last, some movement on 08:01 - Jun 10 with 2013 views | bluelagos |
Think this is going to blow up big time unless the govt gets on top of it. The impact of the lockdown is way more than finanical - the social costs are massive and educational outcomes for those from poorer backgrounds will suffer more than their wealthier counterparts.
So all back to school then? Except that even though children may be far less likely to die from the disease, they are probably very likely spreaders (we know they are for flu) of the virus.
Which means we are a bit stuffed - unless we can fundamentally change how schools operate for the foreseeable future. Say all classes are split morning/afternoon with half the classes. But this creates childcare issues. Maybe alternative days - same problems for parents.
Huge investment in mobile classrooms and bringing in retired teachers / using LSAs - bit like what they did in the NHS (Expanding capacity and staffing) ?
Or they go for testing (like with the footballers) of pupils and then carry on as normal?
No easy answers here but there has to be some solution found or the educational and social damage will be significant. Kids all losing a years education would be manageable - if that were equally spread. It isn't - it's the poorest kids missing out significantly more.
The dithering / non action / lack of decisions is becoming a common theme with the govt it seems. Other countries have found solutions - yet we seem to be nowhere nearer than 10 weeks ago to finding the answers and getting on with it.
Sometimes doing nothing is worse than picking an imperfect way forward and getting on with it. |  |
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| At last, some movement on 08:15 - Jun 10 with 1972 views | giant_stow |
| At last, some movement on 08:01 - Jun 10 by bluelagos |
Think this is going to blow up big time unless the govt gets on top of it. The impact of the lockdown is way more than finanical - the social costs are massive and educational outcomes for those from poorer backgrounds will suffer more than their wealthier counterparts.
So all back to school then? Except that even though children may be far less likely to die from the disease, they are probably very likely spreaders (we know they are for flu) of the virus.
Which means we are a bit stuffed - unless we can fundamentally change how schools operate for the foreseeable future. Say all classes are split morning/afternoon with half the classes. But this creates childcare issues. Maybe alternative days - same problems for parents.
Huge investment in mobile classrooms and bringing in retired teachers / using LSAs - bit like what they did in the NHS (Expanding capacity and staffing) ?
Or they go for testing (like with the footballers) of pupils and then carry on as normal?
No easy answers here but there has to be some solution found or the educational and social damage will be significant. Kids all losing a years education would be manageable - if that were equally spread. It isn't - it's the poorest kids missing out significantly more.
The dithering / non action / lack of decisions is becoming a common theme with the govt it seems. Other countries have found solutions - yet we seem to be nowhere nearer than 10 weeks ago to finding the answers and getting on with it.
Sometimes doing nothing is worse than picking an imperfect way forward and getting on with it. |
Good post.
There's seems to have been a can't do attitude and an acceptance of an impossible situation. Govt must chuck everything at this and bludy quickly - a september return for all kids is the bare minimum. |  |
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| At last, some movement on 08:33 - Jun 10 with 1940 views | bluelagos |
| At last, some movement on 08:15 - Jun 10 by giant_stow |
Good post.
There's seems to have been a can't do attitude and an acceptance of an impossible situation. Govt must chuck everything at this and bludy quickly - a september return for all kids is the bare minimum. |
Cheers.
Did a PGCE and spent 2 years in class - so know a little - and am in contact with many exPGCErs still teaching -few in junior management roles - who are struggling to make sense of it all atm. Sure some of the teachers on here will correct me where am wrong - or add their own thoughts.
Tbh I've always thought worrying about getting kids into class for 4 weeks in June/July was a bit of waste of effort educationally. 2 weeks to settle them down and last 2 weeks the kids are focused on holidays. Not saying it's wrong - but I'd prioritise a Sept start if it were me.
Worth noting how few of those entitled to go in have been going in (In some places is around 1 in 6 I think) I recognise there is huge resistance from parents to sending their kids in. This is a symptom of the govt messaging - people are scared their kids will bring home the virus.
September is what really matters as if this drags on it will start to have significantly more damage, so there is time to get it right.
I'd definitely look to get all Year 6s in asap to help prepare them for the transition to secondary school - split them over 2 or 3 classrooms if necessary.
I'd also be looking to bring in as many ex/retired teachers / LSAs as possible, and the sooner the better. Outdoor space can be used for classrooms as can portcabins and unused village halls etc. Local solutions will be there - at a cost - to effectively double the floor space and give the kids teaching time as per normal. Even if it works out kids get 2/3 of a teaching day - that would be so much better than what is happening now. | |
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| At last, some movement on 08:46 - Jun 10 with 1917 views | sparks |
| At last, some movement on 08:33 - Jun 10 by bluelagos |
Cheers.
Did a PGCE and spent 2 years in class - so know a little - and am in contact with many exPGCErs still teaching -few in junior management roles - who are struggling to make sense of it all atm. Sure some of the teachers on here will correct me where am wrong - or add their own thoughts.
Tbh I've always thought worrying about getting kids into class for 4 weeks in June/July was a bit of waste of effort educationally. 2 weeks to settle them down and last 2 weeks the kids are focused on holidays. Not saying it's wrong - but I'd prioritise a Sept start if it were me.
Worth noting how few of those entitled to go in have been going in (In some places is around 1 in 6 I think) I recognise there is huge resistance from parents to sending their kids in. This is a symptom of the govt messaging - people are scared their kids will bring home the virus.
September is what really matters as if this drags on it will start to have significantly more damage, so there is time to get it right.
I'd definitely look to get all Year 6s in asap to help prepare them for the transition to secondary school - split them over 2 or 3 classrooms if necessary.
I'd also be looking to bring in as many ex/retired teachers / LSAs as possible, and the sooner the better. Outdoor space can be used for classrooms as can portcabins and unused village halls etc. Local solutions will be there - at a cost - to effectively double the floor space and give the kids teaching time as per normal. Even if it works out kids get 2/3 of a teaching day - that would be so much better than what is happening now. |
I am no expert, but am thoroughly unconvinced that 3 months, in a school career spanning over ten years is going to make a significant difference for most- especially the younger ones.
Many countries with better systems than ours dont even start school until 7.
That said- clarity and a clear and reasonable plan is required. The approach so far is typical of the way the public sector deals with things- hand down an edict from on high having ignored all comment from those at the coalface, and assume that through hard work and ingenuity, the decent people at that coal face will make it work. Then fail to reward them for it. |  |
| The presence of those seeking the truth is infinitely to be preferred to the presence of those who think they've found it.
(Sir Terry Pratchett) | | Poll: | Is Fred drunk this morning? |
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| At last, some movement on 08:54 - Jun 10 with 1884 views | bluelagos |
| At last, some movement on 08:46 - Jun 10 by sparks |
I am no expert, but am thoroughly unconvinced that 3 months, in a school career spanning over ten years is going to make a significant difference for most- especially the younger ones.
Many countries with better systems than ours dont even start school until 7.
That said- clarity and a clear and reasonable plan is required. The approach so far is typical of the way the public sector deals with things- hand down an edict from on high having ignored all comment from those at the coalface, and assume that through hard work and ingenuity, the decent people at that coal face will make it work. Then fail to reward them for it. |
I sort of agree - 3 months without learning - isn't the end of the world. But one issue is that it is 3 months without learning for some, whilst others have had support / teaching / tuition etc. The gap between disadvantaged and advantaged will be bigger than before.
Your last paragraph is spot on. I'd maybe emphasise those handing down the edicts / making policy - are ultimately politicians. How we get to a position where our Education Minister has never worked in education is baffling to me. | |
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| At last, some movement on 08:57 - Jun 10 with 1875 views | giant_stow |
| At last, some movement on 08:46 - Jun 10 by sparks |
I am no expert, but am thoroughly unconvinced that 3 months, in a school career spanning over ten years is going to make a significant difference for most- especially the younger ones.
Many countries with better systems than ours dont even start school until 7.
That said- clarity and a clear and reasonable plan is required. The approach so far is typical of the way the public sector deals with things- hand down an edict from on high having ignored all comment from those at the coalface, and assume that through hard work and ingenuity, the decent people at that coal face will make it work. Then fail to reward them for it. |
Agreed on how schools have been left hanging.
Not so much on your first para though, although I'm not an expert either - I'm hearing stories of kids withdrawing into themselves, losing confidence and forgetitng the socialisation skills already learnt. Maybe some kids will be able to catch up academically, but maybe not the less able ones?
Besides that, apart from the long term impacts, there's short term suffering and bordom to think about. I've heard of kids who have gone back being completely overjoyed to return for instance. [Post edited 10 Jun 2020 8:58]
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| At last, some movement on 09:08 - Jun 10 with 1840 views | Pinewoodblue |
| At last, some movement on 08:54 - Jun 10 by bluelagos |
I sort of agree - 3 months without learning - isn't the end of the world. But one issue is that it is 3 months without learning for some, whilst others have had support / teaching / tuition etc. The gap between disadvantaged and advantaged will be bigger than before.
Your last paragraph is spot on. I'd maybe emphasise those handing down the edicts / making policy - are ultimately politicians. How we get to a position where our Education Minister has never worked in education is baffling to me. |
Think it depends on the age of the child in as much as some three month periods are far more important than others.
In the long term there is a need to tackle inequality wherever it is found, although I wouldn’t know where to start. |  |
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| At last, some movement on 09:09 - Jun 10 with 1839 views | bluelagos |
| At last, some movement on 08:57 - Jun 10 by giant_stow |
Agreed on how schools have been left hanging.
Not so much on your first para though, although I'm not an expert either - I'm hearing stories of kids withdrawing into themselves, losing confidence and forgetitng the socialisation skills already learnt. Maybe some kids will be able to catch up academically, but maybe not the less able ones?
Besides that, apart from the long term impacts, there's short term suffering and bordom to think about. I've heard of kids who have gone back being completely overjoyed to return for instance. [Post edited 10 Jun 2020 8:58]
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Hey, keep on saying it - we are social animals - and the costs of lockdown are huge on many people.
Last night on Newsnight they talked about education but also increased calls to childline (up a 1/3) so we know child abuse has gone up. Same with domestic abuse.
Sooner we can get out the better (In terms of social impacts). Frustrates me that so many frame the lockdown debate as economic v deaths. Social impact is huge imho. [Post edited 10 Jun 2020 9:10]
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| At last, some movement on 09:12 - Jun 10 with 1822 views | giant_stow |
| At last, some movement on 09:09 - Jun 10 by bluelagos |
Hey, keep on saying it - we are social animals - and the costs of lockdown are huge on many people.
Last night on Newsnight they talked about education but also increased calls to childline (up a 1/3) so we know child abuse has gone up. Same with domestic abuse.
Sooner we can get out the better (In terms of social impacts). Frustrates me that so many frame the lockdown debate as economic v deaths. Social impact is huge imho. [Post edited 10 Jun 2020 9:10]
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Bang on - huge social impact for everyone, probably most acutely felt by the young and the old - those inbetween may sometimes forget that. | |
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| At last, some movement on 09:14 - Jun 10 with 1815 views | bluelagos |
| At last, some movement on 09:08 - Jun 10 by Pinewoodblue |
Think it depends on the age of the child in as much as some three month periods are far more important than others.
In the long term there is a need to tackle inequality wherever it is found, although I wouldn’t know where to start. |
I'd ban private schools tomorrow - that would be a start :-)
(Debate for another time though) | |
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| At last, some movement on 09:19 - Jun 10 with 1802 views | Pinewoodblue |
| At last, some movement on 09:14 - Jun 10 by bluelagos |
I'd ban private schools tomorrow - that would be a start :-)
(Debate for another time though) |
Yes the priority is doing something about improving the lot for the less privileged. In an ideal world there would be no need for a private education system. | |
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| At last, some movement on 09:41 - Jun 10 with 1761 views | Marshalls_Mullet |
| At last, some movement on 08:33 - Jun 10 by bluelagos |
Cheers.
Did a PGCE and spent 2 years in class - so know a little - and am in contact with many exPGCErs still teaching -few in junior management roles - who are struggling to make sense of it all atm. Sure some of the teachers on here will correct me where am wrong - or add their own thoughts.
Tbh I've always thought worrying about getting kids into class for 4 weeks in June/July was a bit of waste of effort educationally. 2 weeks to settle them down and last 2 weeks the kids are focused on holidays. Not saying it's wrong - but I'd prioritise a Sept start if it were me.
Worth noting how few of those entitled to go in have been going in (In some places is around 1 in 6 I think) I recognise there is huge resistance from parents to sending their kids in. This is a symptom of the govt messaging - people are scared their kids will bring home the virus.
September is what really matters as if this drags on it will start to have significantly more damage, so there is time to get it right.
I'd definitely look to get all Year 6s in asap to help prepare them for the transition to secondary school - split them over 2 or 3 classrooms if necessary.
I'd also be looking to bring in as many ex/retired teachers / LSAs as possible, and the sooner the better. Outdoor space can be used for classrooms as can portcabins and unused village halls etc. Local solutions will be there - at a cost - to effectively double the floor space and give the kids teaching time as per normal. Even if it works out kids get 2/3 of a teaching day - that would be so much better than what is happening now. |
At our kids primary school, it is effectively a school purely for children of key workers at the moment. Which is fair enough.
There wasn't much reluctance from parents to send their kids back, but there hasn't been any capacity for kids of non key workers. This includes the years that were encouraged to go back. |  |
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| At last, some movement on 09:43 - Jun 10 with 1755 views | Marshalls_Mullet |
| At last, some movement on 08:46 - Jun 10 by sparks |
I am no expert, but am thoroughly unconvinced that 3 months, in a school career spanning over ten years is going to make a significant difference for most- especially the younger ones.
Many countries with better systems than ours dont even start school until 7.
That said- clarity and a clear and reasonable plan is required. The approach so far is typical of the way the public sector deals with things- hand down an edict from on high having ignored all comment from those at the coalface, and assume that through hard work and ingenuity, the decent people at that coal face will make it work. Then fail to reward them for it. |
My lad is 6 and I would agree that the educational impact isn't huge. But I do think in general the long break isn't a good thing socially or behaviourally for these kids.
My lad is doing ok, but is missing the interaction with his mates. | |
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| At last, some movement on 09:49 - Jun 10 with 1741 views | bluelagos |
| At last, some movement on 09:41 - Jun 10 by Marshalls_Mullet |
At our kids primary school, it is effectively a school purely for children of key workers at the moment. Which is fair enough.
There wasn't much reluctance from parents to send their kids back, but there hasn't been any capacity for kids of non key workers. This includes the years that were encouraged to go back. |
Schools in London (where I know staff) have had only 1 in 6 of the children of key workers and vulnerable children in attendance.
Think that parental reluctance to send them in is dropping though as people get less anxious / more used to the virus - and of course the rates of virus are much lower too.
Not spoken to the guys since last Monday when they were taking in reception/ Yr 1s and Yr 6s so no idea how successful that has been.
In the North West there are higher infection rates and some councils are now allowing schools to open (beyond key worker / vulnerable kids).
Really patchy situation from what I can tell - don't pretend to have any more than anecdotal evidence. | |
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| At last, some movement on 09:53 - Jun 10 with 1730 views | Marshalls_Mullet |
| At last, some movement on 09:49 - Jun 10 by bluelagos |
Schools in London (where I know staff) have had only 1 in 6 of the children of key workers and vulnerable children in attendance.
Think that parental reluctance to send them in is dropping though as people get less anxious / more used to the virus - and of course the rates of virus are much lower too.
Not spoken to the guys since last Monday when they were taking in reception/ Yr 1s and Yr 6s so no idea how successful that has been.
In the North West there are higher infection rates and some councils are now allowing schools to open (beyond key worker / vulnerable kids).
Really patchy situation from what I can tell - don't pretend to have any more than anecdotal evidence. |
Yes, my kids are in a village school, so that probably comes with different concerns than an urban London school. | |
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| At last, some movement on 10:09 - Jun 10 with 1690 views | soupytwist |
Well the MP for Ipswich was on the BBC news this morning basically saying that it would all have worked if the teachers had shown more of a 'can do' attitude.
As a school governor and the husband of someone in a senior management role at a secondary school I would happily give him a slap.
Victoria Derbyshire challenged most of his unfounded comments though.
There are ways that capacity could be increased safely but the way the government has gone about things has not made it possible to investigate or take advantage of those possibilities. |  | | |
| At last, some movement on 10:19 - Jun 10 with 1667 views | sparks |
| At last, some movement on 10:09 - Jun 10 by soupytwist |
Well the MP for Ipswich was on the BBC news this morning basically saying that it would all have worked if the teachers had shown more of a 'can do' attitude.
As a school governor and the husband of someone in a senior management role at a secondary school I would happily give him a slap.
Victoria Derbyshire challenged most of his unfounded comments though.
There are ways that capacity could be increased safely but the way the government has gone about things has not made it possible to investigate or take advantage of those possibilities. |
I think it rather depends on the school. Many seem to be providing good support, zoom lessons, direct teaching. Others send out a worksheet twice a week and do little else. The latter is largely my experience.
But it is typical of out of touch MPs to criticise those at the coal face who are generally doing good deal to make things work as best they can. | |
| The presence of those seeking the truth is infinitely to be preferred to the presence of those who think they've found it.
(Sir Terry Pratchett) | | Poll: | Is Fred drunk this morning? |
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| At last, some movement on 10:21 - Jun 10 with 1664 views | StokieBlue |
| At last, some movement on 08:46 - Jun 10 by sparks |
I am no expert, but am thoroughly unconvinced that 3 months, in a school career spanning over ten years is going to make a significant difference for most- especially the younger ones.
Many countries with better systems than ours dont even start school until 7.
That said- clarity and a clear and reasonable plan is required. The approach so far is typical of the way the public sector deals with things- hand down an edict from on high having ignored all comment from those at the coalface, and assume that through hard work and ingenuity, the decent people at that coal face will make it work. Then fail to reward them for it. |
I think in the general case you are correct, I also hope that many parents have taken it upon themselves to ensure that their children have continued learning.
There is a special case for the current Year 5 with regards to the 11+ tests this coming September - it's possibly some might be affected from missing school the previous months but I think most kids doing that will have continued learning anyway so perhaps it's not an issue.
SB |  |
| Avatar - IC410 - Tadpoles Nebula |
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| At last, some movement on 10:36 - Jun 10 with 1632 views | soupytwist |
| At last, some movement on 10:21 - Jun 10 by StokieBlue |
I think in the general case you are correct, I also hope that many parents have taken it upon themselves to ensure that their children have continued learning.
There is a special case for the current Year 5 with regards to the 11+ tests this coming September - it's possibly some might be affected from missing school the previous months but I think most kids doing that will have continued learning anyway so perhaps it's not an issue.
SB |
Those areas that still have the 11+ are a special case. You're right, a lot of the Y5s who will take the test will still be learning because a lot of them come from better off families with appropriate resources. Those from less well off backgrounds who would stand a chance of being successful could well be suffering in that regard. So the situation of the grammar schools being stuffed with pupils whose parents could afford to get them the right tuition to pass will be reinforced. | | | |
| At last, some movement on 10:40 - Jun 10 with 1614 views | soupytwist |
| At last, some movement on 10:19 - Jun 10 by sparks |
I think it rather depends on the school. Many seem to be providing good support, zoom lessons, direct teaching. Others send out a worksheet twice a week and do little else. The latter is largely my experience.
But it is typical of out of touch MPs to criticise those at the coal face who are generally doing good deal to make things work as best they can. |
Provision is variable, as is the ability of pupils to access it fully. That's a legitimate concern. Of course, the government promised laptops to those who needed them. They haven't materialised.
The MP in question wasn't addressing that aspect to any great extent. He stayed more on the topic of how more children could actually go back to school if only the teaching fraternity was more concerned with making it happen, while maintaining the appropriate social distancing etc. of course. | | | |
| At last, some movement on 11:13 - Jun 10 with 1583 views | Harry_Palmer |
| At last, some movement on 08:01 - Jun 10 by bluelagos |
Think this is going to blow up big time unless the govt gets on top of it. The impact of the lockdown is way more than finanical - the social costs are massive and educational outcomes for those from poorer backgrounds will suffer more than their wealthier counterparts.
So all back to school then? Except that even though children may be far less likely to die from the disease, they are probably very likely spreaders (we know they are for flu) of the virus.
Which means we are a bit stuffed - unless we can fundamentally change how schools operate for the foreseeable future. Say all classes are split morning/afternoon with half the classes. But this creates childcare issues. Maybe alternative days - same problems for parents.
Huge investment in mobile classrooms and bringing in retired teachers / using LSAs - bit like what they did in the NHS (Expanding capacity and staffing) ?
Or they go for testing (like with the footballers) of pupils and then carry on as normal?
No easy answers here but there has to be some solution found or the educational and social damage will be significant. Kids all losing a years education would be manageable - if that were equally spread. It isn't - it's the poorest kids missing out significantly more.
The dithering / non action / lack of decisions is becoming a common theme with the govt it seems. Other countries have found solutions - yet we seem to be nowhere nearer than 10 weeks ago to finding the answers and getting on with it.
Sometimes doing nothing is worse than picking an imperfect way forward and getting on with it. |
There is a very easy solution. Stop all the bs and fear around children spreading the virus, stop trying to implement draconian and inhumane systems in schools, social bubbles etc. and get the children back to School, all of them.
A child is more likely to be struck by lightning than die from CV19 and there is no solid scientific evidence at all that children are asymptomatic spreaders of the virus, not that I have seen anyway. If anybody has any i'd love to see it. |  | | |
| At last, some movement on 11:40 - Jun 10 with 1557 views | giant_stow |
| At last, some movement on 11:13 - Jun 10 by Harry_Palmer |
There is a very easy solution. Stop all the bs and fear around children spreading the virus, stop trying to implement draconian and inhumane systems in schools, social bubbles etc. and get the children back to School, all of them.
A child is more likely to be struck by lightning than die from CV19 and there is no solid scientific evidence at all that children are asymptomatic spreaders of the virus, not that I have seen anyway. If anybody has any i'd love to see it. |
I've got some sympathy with what you say. We can't carry on like this - that's for sure.
There's a strange apapathy about this issue which I don't understand. | |
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| At last, some movement on 11:48 - Jun 10 with 1542 views | Harry_Palmer |
| At last, some movement on 11:40 - Jun 10 by giant_stow |
I've got some sympathy with what you say. We can't carry on like this - that's for sure.
There's a strange apapathy about this issue which I don't understand. |
And a huge hypocrisy from the authorities. Remember that they are only to willing to hand out fines for term time holidays because of the supposed detrimental effect on the child's education when they miss a week or two. Now some children stand to miss several months and yet apparently its not too much of a problem. | | | |
| At last, some movement on 11:57 - Jun 10 with 1526 views | giant_stow |
| At last, some movement on 11:48 - Jun 10 by Harry_Palmer |
And a huge hypocrisy from the authorities. Remember that they are only to willing to hand out fines for term time holidays because of the supposed detrimental effect on the child's education when they miss a week or two. Now some children stand to miss several months and yet apparently its not too much of a problem. |
yes. | |
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