| I know this has been done to death 20:51 - Dec 10 with 10458 views | Coastalblue |
But can anybody give good reasons why we're still leaving the EU?* It's so depressing and probably worse than I actually imagined it was going to end up now all the chickens are beginning to come home to roost.
The easy answer is thick little Englanders, and that's probably true in some places but I can't believe that's true of all of those wanting to leave. There must be some people with intelligence who believe in this? If so, can you give me reasons why you think it's for the best? (still)
I struggle to see a single positive to come out of it, let alone enough to make it all worthwhile, what am I missing.
I'm hoping to avoid the name calling etc that normally comes with the subject matter, and that I guess might put off anybody who thinks there are reasons from answering but a reasoned response from a Brexit believer would be gratefully appreciated.
*Aside from the fact I realise we've burnt our bridges now probably. |  |
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| I know this has been done to death on 21:12 - Dec 10 with 3035 views | thegloryyears |
a quick copy and paste.
One, the EU is a fundamentally protectionist trading bloc
Two, the EU seriously misallocates resources
Three, the EU is a political project that is fundamentally anti-democratic,
Four, is the ‘purposive’ nature of EU law
Five, is the folly of introducing the euro
Six, is the demographic ageing of the EU’s population,
Seven, the EU has inadvertently encouraged regional separatist movements to develop in a number of member states
Eight, is increasing Euroscepticism in the EU
Nine, the EU has been blamed for the tension between Russia and the Ukraine
Finally, there is massive corruption in the EU,
+ we get our fish back. |  | | |
| I know this has been done to death on 21:12 - Dec 10 with 3029 views | ArnoldMoorhen |
The silence will be deafening.
Apart from one or two who are offended at your suggestion that people who voted for Brexit are stupid. Maybe one or two will accuse you of accusing them of being racists, and be affronted by that. And possibly you will be ordered to get behind your country.
Like you I'd like to hear some more answers.
Brexiteers, please be aware that your answers suggesting that:
you don't like unelected people telling you what to do have been undermined by Dominic Cummings running the Government for 12 months
your hints about the EU being corrupt and a waste of money are rather undermined by this Government's procurement policy during Covid
and the suggestion that you believe in English Parliamentary Democracy has been shaat upon from a great height by the illegal prorogation of Parliament and the refusal of this Government to allow Parliamentary Committees to carry out the scrutinising functions properly, eg by blocking reports being published.
So, please do tell us what we have to look forward to... | | | |
| I know this has been done to death on 21:13 - Dec 10 with 3016 views | tractordownsouth |
All its' ever been is an ideological wet dream for the ERG who still think they're in a private school debating society and are completely insulated from the consequences themselves. This tweet from Guido Fawkes 'reporter' Tom Harwood sums it up. Their idea of benefits include:
- Reducing our data protection rights
- Removing the Working Time Directive, meaning that we may now be forced to work over 48 hours a week even if we wish not to
- Unilaterally removing tariffs and exposing our domestic producers to foreign competition, without guranteeing access to foreign markets. This is great for businesses like Wetherspoons that only import and will give us cheaper prices for some products, but for exporting businesses it'll be a disaster. This is something that even pro-no deal economists like Patrick Minford have admitted will wipe out the British manufacturing and agriculture base.
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| I know this has been done to death on 21:13 - Dec 10 with 3021 views | Steve_M |
Ultimately it’s because the Tory party has become a death cult, fetishing the ideal of sovereignty over everything else.
There were ways to leave to the EU which might have been painful but would have worked; they would have taken too long and involved accepting the need for compromise. Instead two Prime Ministers have muddled through not daring to upset the loons of the ERG. |  |
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| I know this has been done to death on 21:25 - Dec 10 with 2974 views | Trequartista |
Because what was once a trading block became a political vehicle and the majority do not want to belong to a United States of Europe with unelected politicans.
However there is no doubt it will be so financially devastating to leave, especially without a deal, as we have become so deeply entrenched in the thing and therefore on balance i voted to remain and would do again. But i understand why people who are not far-right fanatics voted to leave. |  |
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| I know this has been done to death on 21:30 - Dec 10 with 2951 views | BlueBadger |
| I know this has been done to death on 21:12 - Dec 10 by thegloryyears |
a quick copy and paste.
One, the EU is a fundamentally protectionist trading bloc
Two, the EU seriously misallocates resources
Three, the EU is a political project that is fundamentally anti-democratic,
Four, is the ‘purposive’ nature of EU law
Five, is the folly of introducing the euro
Six, is the demographic ageing of the EU’s population,
Seven, the EU has inadvertently encouraged regional separatist movements to develop in a number of member states
Eight, is increasing Euroscepticism in the EU
Nine, the EU has been blamed for the tension between Russia and the Ukraine
Finally, there is massive corruption in the EU,
+ we get our fish back. |
1 - The entire point of a trading bloc is better trade between members. The Commonwealth is one. As is the USA and various other blocs around the world. We'll be on the receiving end of a lot more protectionism now. With none of the advantages.
2 - as opposed to the British government spunking cash on HS2, Trident, etc, etc
3 - as opposed to the current incarnation of the Conservative party which wants to reduce accountability by reeling in the power of the courts, defund the BBC and was essentially run by an unelected policy wonk for the last year
4 - All laws have a 'purpose'.
5 - we don't have the Euro and at no point has it been government policy over the past 20 or so years.
6 - so, just like the UK then?
7 - Technically correct, given that the Scottish independence movement is gaining traction in the wake of the Brexit vote. Presumably because Scots don't want stupid, racist, small-minded people in Westminster telling them what to do. [Post edited 10 Dec 2020 21:35]
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| I know this has been done to death on 21:30 - Dec 10 with 2948 views | TractorWood |
As a few have said. It started as a trading bloc but morphed into this bureaucratic behemoth.
My view is that despite its obvious downsides it overall benefitted us through the free exchange of labour, tariff free goods and environmental standards. Successive governments ignored the awful state of our coasts and waterways.
As for positives I don't think there are many. Even if there were, the Tories would screw it up anyway. [Post edited 10 Dec 2020 21:31]
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| I know this has been done to death on 21:33 - Dec 10 with 2933 views | BlueBadger |
| I know this has been done to death on 21:25 - Dec 10 by Trequartista |
Because what was once a trading block became a political vehicle and the majority do not want to belong to a United States of Europe with unelected politicans.
However there is no doubt it will be so financially devastating to leave, especially without a deal, as we have become so deeply entrenched in the thing and therefore on balance i voted to remain and would do again. But i understand why people who are not far-right fanatics voted to leave. |
Where are the unlected MP's in the European parliament? | |
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| I know this has been done to death on 21:39 - Dec 10 with 2905 views | tractordownsouth |
| I know this has been done to death on 21:33 - Dec 10 by BlueBadger |
Where are the unlected MP's in the European parliament? |
The UKIP ones didn't even turn up half the time. And the Labour Brexiters are now unelected bureaucrats in the House of Lords. | |
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| I know this has been done to death on 21:42 - Dec 10 with 2890 views | m14_blue |
| I know this has been done to death on 21:12 - Dec 10 by thegloryyears |
a quick copy and paste.
One, the EU is a fundamentally protectionist trading bloc
Two, the EU seriously misallocates resources
Three, the EU is a political project that is fundamentally anti-democratic,
Four, is the ‘purposive’ nature of EU law
Five, is the folly of introducing the euro
Six, is the demographic ageing of the EU’s population,
Seven, the EU has inadvertently encouraged regional separatist movements to develop in a number of member states
Eight, is increasing Euroscepticism in the EU
Nine, the EU has been blamed for the tension between Russia and the Ukraine
Finally, there is massive corruption in the EU,
+ we get our fish back. |
There literally isn’t a single positive to come out of Brexit is there?
No one even pretends there is any more, just a load of mud slinging and anti EU rhetoric, no pretence that anyone’s lives will actually be improved by this insanity.
No mention of all the extra money we’ll have? The £350m extra for the NHS every week? What happened to the sunlit uplands?
History will not look kindly on our generations. | | | |
| I know this has been done to death on 21:46 - Dec 10 with 2874 views | tractordownsouth |
| I know this has been done to death on 21:42 - Dec 10 by m14_blue |
There literally isn’t a single positive to come out of Brexit is there?
No one even pretends there is any more, just a load of mud slinging and anti EU rhetoric, no pretence that anyone’s lives will actually be improved by this insanity.
No mention of all the extra money we’ll have? The £350m extra for the NHS every week? What happened to the sunlit uplands?
History will not look kindly on our generations. |
Of the £9bn net contribution, £7.5bn of that will go on extra customs forms, regardless of whether or not we get a deal.
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/hmrc-brexit-transition-business-p | |
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| I know this has been done to death on 21:46 - Dec 10 with 2878 views | Trequartista |
| I know this has been done to death on 21:33 - Dec 10 by BlueBadger |
Where are the unlected MP's in the European parliament? |
I think the MEPs are elected but they vote on legislation drawn up by an unelected body, so maybe unelected commissioners is more accurate than unelected politicians. | |
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| I know this has been done to death on 21:47 - Dec 10 with 2869 views | clive_baker |
Sovrun innit |  |
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| I know this has been done to death on 21:51 - Dec 10 with 2850 views | BlueBadger |
| I know this has been done to death on 21:46 - Dec 10 by Trequartista |
I think the MEPs are elected but they vote on legislation drawn up by an unelected body, so maybe unelected commissioners is more accurate than unelected politicians. |
So, a bit like how government works now in this country. A government proposes a policy, civil servants(unelected) draw up the bones of it, then parliament votes on it.
In any case, your elected representative still has the final say. So, if your elected representative is say, not turning up or voting in favour of bullsh1t legislation, then you should vote them out so they can't pass more of it. | |
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| I know this has been done to death on 21:56 - Dec 10 with 2847 views | Clapham_Junction |
| I know this has been done to death on 21:46 - Dec 10 by Trequartista |
I think the MEPs are elected but they vote on legislation drawn up by an unelected body, so maybe unelected commissioners is more accurate than unelected politicians. |
Commissioners are appointed by elected governments, and then voted on by the EU parliament.
The EU is no more undemocratic than our own government (and arguably less so given that it is elected using PR). Incredibly frustrating that this nonsense persists more than four years on.
If someone claims it will get us out of the ECHR I may say something very rude. |  | | |
| I know this has been done to death on 22:00 - Dec 10 with 2833 views | Trequartista |
| I know this has been done to death on 21:51 - Dec 10 by BlueBadger |
So, a bit like how government works now in this country. A government proposes a policy, civil servants(unelected) draw up the bones of it, then parliament votes on it.
In any case, your elected representative still has the final say. So, if your elected representative is say, not turning up or voting in favour of bullsh1t legislation, then you should vote them out so they can't pass more of it. |
"A government proposes a policy". One is elected (on their manifesto of policies), one isn't. I don't see that as the same. | |
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| I know this has been done to death on 22:01 - Dec 10 with 2826 views | Trequartista |
| I know this has been done to death on 21:56 - Dec 10 by Clapham_Junction |
Commissioners are appointed by elected governments, and then voted on by the EU parliament.
The EU is no more undemocratic than our own government (and arguably less so given that it is elected using PR). Incredibly frustrating that this nonsense persists more than four years on.
If someone claims it will get us out of the ECHR I may say something very rude. |
'Appointed' being the key word. | |
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| I know this has been done to death on 22:05 - Dec 10 with 2807 views | Clapham_Junction |
| I know this has been done to death on 22:01 - Dec 10 by Trequartista |
'Appointed' being the key word. |
Ministers are appointed (they do not have to be elected MPs). This is basic stuff about how politics works. | | | |
| I know this has been done to death on 22:08 - Dec 10 with 2798 views | BlueBadger |
| I know this has been done to death on 22:00 - Dec 10 by Trequartista |
"A government proposes a policy". One is elected (on their manifesto of policies), one isn't. I don't see that as the same. |
You elect your MEP, like your MP, on the basis of their policies. If enough MEPs agree with these polices, they'll find their way through, one way or another.
Like how it works here. [Post edited 10 Dec 2020 22:16]
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| I know this has been done to death on 22:11 - Dec 10 with 2771 views | Herbivore |
| I know this has been done to death on 21:12 - Dec 10 by thegloryyears |
a quick copy and paste.
One, the EU is a fundamentally protectionist trading bloc
Two, the EU seriously misallocates resources
Three, the EU is a political project that is fundamentally anti-democratic,
Four, is the ‘purposive’ nature of EU law
Five, is the folly of introducing the euro
Six, is the demographic ageing of the EU’s population,
Seven, the EU has inadvertently encouraged regional separatist movements to develop in a number of member states
Eight, is increasing Euroscepticism in the EU
Nine, the EU has been blamed for the tension between Russia and the Ukraine
Finally, there is massive corruption in the EU,
+ we get our fish back. |
Most of that is either untrue, equally applies to the UK, or acted in our benefit whilst we were members. None of these things you've listed are tangible benefits attached to leaving. |  |
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| I know this has been done to death on 22:12 - Dec 10 with 2771 views | J2BLUE |
It was a collective tantrum lashing out at the wrong target. By the time many of us realised that and wanted to change our minds it was too late. The loudest voices drowned out all the counter arguments and all the polls showing a majority were now actually against it.
It was like having a drunk one night stand and then being forced to marry the woman. Once we sobered up there was no chance to correct the mistake.
There should have been a confirmation vote. This is the deal, do you still want it? With that said, ultimate responsibility lies with those of us who voted for it and we must accept that. |  |
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| I know this has been done to death on 22:19 - Dec 10 with 2754 views | Coastalblue |
| I know this has been done to death on 22:12 - Dec 10 by J2BLUE |
It was a collective tantrum lashing out at the wrong target. By the time many of us realised that and wanted to change our minds it was too late. The loudest voices drowned out all the counter arguments and all the polls showing a majority were now actually against it.
It was like having a drunk one night stand and then being forced to marry the woman. Once we sobered up there was no chance to correct the mistake.
There should have been a confirmation vote. This is the deal, do you still want it? With that said, ultimate responsibility lies with those of us who voted for it and we must accept that. |
That's a brave answer and I respect you for it. | |
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| I know this has been done to death on 22:19 - Dec 10 with 2750 views | Herbivore |
| I know this has been done to death on 22:01 - Dec 10 by Trequartista |
'Appointed' being the key word. |
The Tories have two unelected ministers in their cabinet currently. They were appointed by Boris Johnson. The whole undemocratic argument against the EU really doesn't stack up. It's no less democratic than most national governments, including our own. We have an entire unelected second chamber with more members than the Commons, ffs. | |
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| I know this has been done to death on 22:20 - Dec 10 with 2742 views | Trequartista |
| I know this has been done to death on 22:05 - Dec 10 by Clapham_Junction |
Ministers are appointed (they do not have to be elected MPs). This is basic stuff about how politics works. |
Oh come on now the vast majority of ministers are elected MPs, and even if they aren't they are still applying a policy manifesto that was voted on by the electorate.
You can make the argument that even though law-makers are appointed and not elected, it is more democratic for other reasons and that's fine, but that bottom line is not how leave voters would see it. | |
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