Forum | Again, don't shoot the messenger. by noggin

Forum index | Previous Thread | Next thread

Again, don't shoot the messenger. 12:11 - Mar 18 with 3303 views

Norwegian researchers say that the AZ vaccine is responsible for blood clots and bleeding. Still very small numbers so will be interesting to see how the government deal with these findings.

https://www.vg.no/i/KyGv2G?utm_source=kopierlink&utm_content=deleknapp&u

Poll:

If KM goes now, will you applaud him when he returns with his new club?

Again, don't shoot the messenger. on 12:15 - Mar 18 with 2888 views

homer_123

My brother in law is going full on anti-vax at the moment!!

Question - even if it does have this side effect do the benefits outweigh the risk?

According to R4 this morning, the EU is sitting on 40m vaccines in storage that have not been administered (inc. the AZ vaccine). How many more deaths will there be because the vaccine isn't being rolled out?

That's not to say this should not be thoroughly investigated etc.

	Ade Akinbiyi couldn't hit a cows arse with a banjo...
Poll:	As things stand, how confident are you we will get promoted this season?

Again, don't shoot the messenger. on 12:17 - Mar 18 with 2865 views

Ewan_Oozami

So the question is, if those people who had the bad anti-immune reaction actually caught real Covid, would the same thing have happened?

	You are the obsolete SRN4 to my Fairey Rotodyne....
Poll:	What else could go on top of the cake apart from icing and a cherry?

Again, don't shoot the messenger. on 12:18 - Mar 18 with 2861 views

noggin

Again, don't shoot the messenger. on 12:15 - Mar 18 by homer_123

I agree and would happily take the AZ vaccine if I hadn't already had the Pfizer.

Poll:

If KM goes now, will you applaud him when he returns with his new club?

Again, don't shoot the messenger. on 12:18 - Mar 18 with 2859 views

Guthrum

Altho that still does not get down to the root of the issue - which element of the vaccine is causing that response in particular patients and why it is not spread evenly throughout the populations which have received the AZ one (e.g. there are proportionally extremely few instances in the UK - only two in total, I gather).

Is it something to do with the vaccine, the populations who have received it, or variations in the manufacturing processes (including the possibility of a "bad batch")?

All of that is still very much up in the air.

	Good Lord! Whatever is it?
Poll:	McCarthy: A More Nuanced Poll
Blog:	[Blog] For Those Panicking About the Lack of Transfer Activity

Again, don't shoot the messenger. on 12:21 - Mar 18 with 2828 views

noggin

Again, don't shoot the messenger. on 12:18 - Mar 18 by Guthrum

I'm no expert of course but I guess it's like any other immune response. Take allergic reactions for example. A wasp sting in a tiny number of people will cause an immune response that can be deadly if not treated immediately.

Poll:

If KM goes now, will you applaud him when he returns with his new club?

Again, don't shoot the messenger. on 12:23 - Mar 18 with 2811 views

BanksterDebtSlave

This is the point where the debate will move on to..."ok so the vaccine might kill you but...."
Some honesty is now needed about how we have not the foggiest about what any long term issues might be.
Was speaking to a nurse while having blood taken this morning who says that side effects seem to have been worse in those who have also had covid which I found surprising and got me wondering about what the cumulative result of annual vaccines might be.
Also speaking to someone in America with multiple ongoing side effects after the J&J one but the doctors aren't interested until at least a month after vaccine. As this includes a constant headache this doesn't sound great in light of some of the concerns about clotting!

	"They break our legs and tell us to be grateful when they offer us crutches."
Poll:	Do you wipe after having a piss?

Again, don't shoot the messenger. on 12:26 - Mar 18 with 2747 views

hype313

Again, don't shoot the messenger. on 12:23 - Mar 18 by BanksterDebtSlave

My brother in law is in Dubai and he contracted Covid in February, got it quite bad, had the vaccine last week and has been bed ridden since.

As you say, there does seem to be more of a reaction in people who have already had Covid, lots more studies need to be done though to get a real clear picture.

But the fact is, 17m people in the UK have had the AZ one and a handful of Clots have been found, likewise with Pfizer, so it might not be about the vaccinations per se, more to do with existing antibodies going into overdrive.

Poll:

Should Muric be dropped?

Again, don't shoot the messenger. on 12:27 - Mar 18 with 2729 views

Guthrum

Again, don't shoot the messenger. on 12:21 - Mar 18 by noggin
I'm no expert of course but I guess it's like any other immune response. Take allergic reactions for example. A wasp sting in a tiny number of people will cause an immune response that can be deadly if not treated immediately.

Indeed. That's one of the things they're looking at. Is there anything in common which might give those people a greater susceptibility? But it might also be another factor (e.g. contamination).

	Good Lord! Whatever is it?
Poll:	McCarthy: A More Nuanced Poll
Blog:	[Blog] For Those Panicking About the Lack of Transfer Activity

Again, don't shoot the messenger. on 12:28 - Mar 18 with 2716 views

noggin

Again, don't shoot the messenger. on 12:26 - Mar 18 by hype313

"so it might not be about the vaccinations per se, more to do with existing antibodies going into overdrive."

This research says that's not the case.

Poll:

If KM goes now, will you applaud him when he returns with his new club?

Again, don't shoot the messenger. on 12:44 - Mar 18 with 2597 views

hype313

Again, don't shoot the messenger. on 12:28 - Mar 18 by noggin
"so it might not be about the vaccinations per se, more to do with existing antibodies going into overdrive." This research says that's not the case.

Other research suggests otherwise (Taken from Stokie)

"In a paper published in October in Blood Brodsky and colleagues showed that the spike protein of SARS-CoV-2, by binding to the inner surface of blood vessels, can activate the complement system. In some people that leads to the cells lining the vessel being attacked, which in turn can lead to blood clotting and ultimately cause severe disease"

So, we go back to my point that we need far more research before we can really identify if this is all to do with a bad batch or it's a wider concern.

Poll:

Should Muric be dropped?

Again, don't shoot the messenger. on 12:47 - Mar 18 with 2581 views

StokieBlue

Again, don't shoot the messenger. on 12:18 - Mar 18 by noggin
I agree and would happily take the AZ vaccine if I hadn't already had the Pfizer.

From the other thread posted by Steve, the reaction looks to be to the spike protein so it could also happen with any of the other vaccines as they all stimulate the body to produce the spike protein.

I posted in more depth in that thread (here:

This is worth reading on the concerns various regulators have with AZ vaccine by Steve_M 18 Mar 2021 10:21
Still likely that the benefits of vaccination exceed the risk of clots but this does appear a fair reason for concern.

Curious though that the data in the UK does not seem to show the same but maybe cases are so rare that the statistical signal is limited.

https://www.sciencemag.org/news/2021/03/it-s-very-special-picture-why-vaccine-safety-experts-put-brakes-astrazeneca-s-covid-19

It will be interesting to see the results of the full investigation and the specific immune reaction they are citing.

SB

[Post edited 18 Mar 2021 12:49]

Again, don't shoot the messenger. on 12:49 - Mar 18 with 2564 views

BanksterDebtSlave

Again, don't shoot the messenger. on 12:26 - Mar 18 by hype313

I have to admit to finding this particularly concerning as intuitively you would think that somebody with an already activated immune system might react less to the vaccine.

	"They break our legs and tell us to be grateful when they offer us crutches."
Poll:	Do you wipe after having a piss?

Again, don't shoot the messenger. on 12:54 - Mar 18 with 2528 views

Guthrum

Again, don't shoot the messenger. on 12:47 - Mar 18 by StokieBlue

It will be interesting to see the results of the full investigation and the specific immune reaction they are citing.

SB

[Post edited 18 Mar 2021 12:49]

However the statistics don't seem to back that up as a general, widespread issue. There aren't significant numbers of blood clot issues with the other vaccines, or outside of certain areas of Europe.

Doesn't stop it being the mechanism in those specific cases, tho, if there is something else which triggers it or increases the vulnerability.

	Good Lord! Whatever is it?
Poll:	McCarthy: A More Nuanced Poll
Blog:	[Blog] For Those Panicking About the Lack of Transfer Activity

Again, don't shoot the messenger. on 12:55 - Mar 18 with 2515 views

BanksterDebtSlave

Again, don't shoot the messenger. on 12:21 - Mar 18 by noggin
I'm no expert of course but I guess it's like any other immune response. Take allergic reactions for example. A wasp sting in a tiny number of people will cause an immune response that can be deadly if not treated immediately.

So the really worrying thing there is that people like gardeners get stung multiple times and the response is cumulative so in other words stung but fine, stung but fine until stung, extreme reaction. So hopefully repeated covid annual vaccines at the same time as possibly repeated doses of asymptomatic covid doesn't have a similar response with say clotting....just a little hypothesis to put out there.

	"They break our legs and tell us to be grateful when they offer us crutches."
Poll:	Do you wipe after having a piss?

-1

Again, don't shoot the messenger. on 12:56 - Mar 18 with 2510 views

StokieBlue

Again, don't shoot the messenger. on 12:54 - Mar 18 by Guthrum
However the statistics don't seem to back that up as a general, widespread issue. There aren't significant numbers of blood clot issues with the other vaccines, or outside of certain areas of Europe. Doesn't stop it being the mechanism in those specific cases, tho, if there is something else which triggers it or increases the vulnerability.

I'm not sure I follow?

There have been cases of clotting in the EU, UK and US from Pfizer and Moderna which would be explained if it was a very tiny risk that an individual already has to the spike protein.

I guess we need the full investigation to be published.

SB

Again, don't shoot the messenger. on 12:57 - Mar 18 with 2509 views

xrayspecs

One in six Covid patients in hospital develop blood clots. The odds of a vaccine related clot is around 1:500,000. Which would you prefer?

Again, don't shoot the messenger. on 12:58 - Mar 18 with 2481 views

StokieBlue

Again, don't shoot the messenger. on 12:55 - Mar 18 by BanksterDebtSlave

Once again though that's not citing any actual evidence so no real need for the flippant dig because it's not remotely similar.

SB

Again, don't shoot the messenger. on 13:08 - Mar 18 with 2435 views

Guthrum

Again, don't shoot the messenger. on 12:56 - Mar 18 by StokieBlue
I'm not sure I follow? There have been cases of clotting in the EU, UK and US from Pfizer and Moderna which would be explained if it was a very tiny risk that an individual already has to the spike protein. I guess we need the full investigation to be published. SB

The AZ problem which has caused use of that vaccine to be suspended in some countries is disproportionately affecting certain parts of Europe. I understand that there have been two cases in the UK, compared with 17 in Germany. It doesn't appear to be an even, proportional spread.

	Good Lord! Whatever is it?
Poll:	McCarthy: A More Nuanced Poll
Blog:	[Blog] For Those Panicking About the Lack of Transfer Activity

Again, don't shoot the messenger. on 13:18 - Mar 18 with 2362 views

BanksterDebtSlave

Again, don't shoot the messenger. on 12:58 - Mar 18 by StokieBlue
Once again though that's not citing any actual evidence so no real need for the flippant dig because it's not remotely similar. SB

How can evidence be available for something that by definition can not have happened yet....unless there are animal tests we are not party to and even then they wouldn't be definitive.
Your reaction kind of proves my point, you are even setting the terms for 'allowable' hypothesising now.

	"They break our legs and tell us to be grateful when they offer us crutches."
Poll:	Do you wipe after having a piss?

-1

Again, don't shoot the messenger. on 13:19 - Mar 18 with 2351 views

BanksterDebtSlave

Again, don't shoot the messenger. on 12:57 - Mar 18 by xrayspecs
One in six Covid patients in hospital develop blood clots. The odds of a vaccine related clot is around 1:500,000. Which would you prefer?

Are other options available?

	"They break our legs and tell us to be grateful when they offer us crutches."
Poll:	Do you wipe after having a piss?

Again, don't shoot the messenger. on 13:39 - Mar 18 with 2263 views

noggin

Again, don't shoot the messenger. on 12:57 - Mar 18 by xrayspecs
One in six Covid patients in hospital develop blood clots. The odds of a vaccine related clot is around 1:500,000. Which would you prefer?

Your second statistic doesn't run true here though. This research was carried out after 3 healthcare workers were admitted to OUS (Hospital in Olso), with clots, days after receiving the vaccine. One of them has since died. All 3 cases were found to be caused by the immune response to the vaccine. Still tiny numbers of course.

Poll:

If KM goes now, will you applaud him when he returns with his new club?

Again, don't shoot the messenger. on 13:50 - Mar 18 with 2214 views

homer_123

Again, don't shoot the messenger. on 13:08 - Mar 18 by Guthrum
The AZ problem which has caused use of that vaccine to be suspended in some countries is disproportionately affecting certain parts of Europe. I understand that there have been two cases in the UK, compared with 17 in Germany. It doesn't appear to be an even, proportional spread.

Or for that matter consistent reporting.

On R4 this morning, there was talk of both 35 cases in Germany and 7......

	Ade Akinbiyi couldn't hit a cows arse with a banjo...
Poll:	As things stand, how confident are you we will get promoted this season?

Again, don't shoot the messenger. on 14:00 - Mar 18 with 2172 views

StokieBlue

Again, don't shoot the messenger. on 13:18 - Mar 18 by BanksterDebtSlave
How can evidence be available for something that by definition can not have happened yet....unless there are animal tests we are not party to and even then they wouldn't be definitive. Your reaction kind of proves my point, you are even setting the terms for 'allowable' hypothesising now.

Um, no I'm not.

I'm saying that you took issue with a hypothesis I made even though it was rooted firmly in published science whilst making your own hypothesis which is pure speculation along with some totally unnecessary digs at me.

It's a real shame, your posting has changed out of recognition since the start of the first lockdown. We certainly never used to disagree so much.

SB

[Post edited 18 Mar 2021 14:02]

Again, don't shoot the messenger. on 14:01 - Mar 18 with 2164 views

StokieBlue

Again, don't shoot the messenger. on 13:08 - Mar 18 by Guthrum
The AZ problem which has caused use of that vaccine to be suspended in some countries is disproportionately affecting certain parts of Europe. I understand that there have been two cases in the UK, compared with 17 in Germany. It doesn't appear to be an even, proportional spread.

That is true. It could be explained by different batches or by the fact that these cases are in younger people and we haven't been concentrating on them yet.

We need to full investigation from the EMA to get some firmer data.

SB

Again, don't shoot the messenger. on 14:08 - Mar 18 with 2128 views

Father_Jack

Again, don't shoot the messenger. on 14:01 - Mar 18 by StokieBlue
That is true. It could be explained by different batches or by the fact that these cases are in younger people and we haven't been concentrating on them yet. We need to full investigation from the EMA to get some firmer data. SB

Why is it assumed there is any link between the vaccine (of any type) and the blood clots? My understanding was that clots were arising at a greater rate in the general population, so having the vaccine might in theory be safer.

Less is more.

Forum index | Previous Thread | Next thread