| Jacob Rees-Mogg speech interupted by Antifa supporters 23:21 - Feb 2 with 46336 views | Luk38644 |
[Post edited 3 Feb 2018 17:21]
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| Jacob Rees-Mogg speech interupted by Momentum supporters on 14:08 - Feb 4 with 5517 views | BrixtonBlue |
| Jacob Rees-Mogg speech interupted by Momentum supporters on 11:51 - Feb 4 by Ryorry |
I know, I know, I just didn't say it! But it's such a stupid "thing" on here (by a small number, incl you apparently) to pursue people for having the temerity to leave the site for an hour or 3 or 33 to go and do stuff IRL. Damned if they do, damned if they don't - & now apparently damned for trying to steer a middle course.
I'm off to take the mutt out for a pee!!  |
It's not simply about "having the temerity to leave the site" - it's about having plenty of time to post nonsense and then suddenly being busy when pulled up on it. |  |
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| Jacob Rees-Mogg speech interupted by Momentum supporters on 16:17 - Feb 4 with 5462 views | Benters2 |
| Jacob Rees-Mogg speech interupted by Momentum supporters on 14:08 - Feb 4 by BrixtonBlue |
It's not simply about "having the temerity to leave the site" - it's about having plenty of time to post nonsense and then suddenly being busy when pulled up on it. |
I think Glassers is having tiffin. |  | | |
| Jacob Rees-Mogg speech interupted by Momentum supporters on 07:04 - Feb 5 with 5375 views | GlasgowBlue |
| Jacob Rees-Mogg speech interupted by Momentum supporters on 14:08 - Feb 4 by BrixtonBlue |
It's not simply about "having the temerity to leave the site" - it's about having plenty of time to post nonsense and then suddenly being busy when pulled up on it. |
You mean post something to kill time whilst the wife is doing something and then not bother checking the thread again For a few hours? Should be a hanging offence really.
Re your point earlier in your thread that you wouldn’t post if you were away enjoying yourself. Aren’t you the bloke who used to post from the side of his swimming pool whilst on holiday. What a hypocrite.
Your contributions to this thread may be summed up thus: Glassers pissed me off last week for pointing out I used sexist language and I’m taking whatever opportunity I can to give him some in return.
You lack both the intellect and debating skills to put over a counter argument to my premis that fascism has its roots in socialism. So instead you hang on Dan’s coat tails rather like an excited Jack arussell that needs to dry hump the nearest solid object he can find. That makes you as sad as Archer. [Post edited 5 Feb 2018 7:40]
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| Jacob Rees-Mogg speech interupted by Momentum supporters on 07:17 - Feb 5 with 5369 views | Benters2 |
| Jacob Rees-Mogg speech interupted by Momentum supporters on 07:04 - Feb 5 by GlasgowBlue |
You mean post something to kill time whilst the wife is doing something and then not bother checking the thread again For a few hours? Should be a hanging offence really.
Re your point earlier in your thread that you wouldn’t post if you were away enjoying yourself. Aren’t you the bloke who used to post from the side of his swimming pool whilst on holiday. What a hypocrite.
Your contributions to this thread may be summed up thus: Glassers pissed me off last week for pointing out I used sexist language and I’m taking whatever opportunity I can to give him some in return.
You lack both the intellect and debating skills to put over a counter argument to my premis that fascism has its roots in socialism. So instead you hang on Dan’s coat tails rather like an excited Jack arussell that needs to dry hump the nearest solid object he can find. That makes you as sad as Archer. [Post edited 5 Feb 2018 7:40]
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Boom!
Thank you and good night! | | | |
| Jacob Rees-Mogg speech interupted by Momentum supporters on 08:10 - Feb 5 with 5350 views | BrixtonBlue |
| Jacob Rees-Mogg speech interupted by Momentum supporters on 07:04 - Feb 5 by GlasgowBlue |
You mean post something to kill time whilst the wife is doing something and then not bother checking the thread again For a few hours? Should be a hanging offence really.
Re your point earlier in your thread that you wouldn’t post if you were away enjoying yourself. Aren’t you the bloke who used to post from the side of his swimming pool whilst on holiday. What a hypocrite.
Your contributions to this thread may be summed up thus: Glassers pissed me off last week for pointing out I used sexist language and I’m taking whatever opportunity I can to give him some in return.
You lack both the intellect and debating skills to put over a counter argument to my premis that fascism has its roots in socialism. So instead you hang on Dan’s coat tails rather like an excited Jack arussell that needs to dry hump the nearest solid object he can find. That makes you as sad as Archer. [Post edited 5 Feb 2018 7:40]
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LOL. Interesting that you choose to attack me rather than answer Dan though, isn't it?
And also avoiding my point that you tried to align this protest with Momentum when it had nothing to do with them.
There's a word for this tactic but I can't quite think of it at the moment... | |
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| Jacob Rees-Mogg speech interupted by Momentum supporters on 08:37 - Feb 5 with 5321 views | GlasgowBlue |
| Jacob Rees-Mogg speech interupted by Momentum supporters on 08:10 - Feb 5 by BrixtonBlue |
LOL. Interesting that you choose to attack me rather than answer Dan though, isn't it?
And also avoiding my point that you tried to align this protest with Momentum when it had nothing to do with them.
There's a word for this tactic but I can't quite think of it at the moment... |
Il be answering Dan in my own good time with a well thought out reply. I won’t be doing it at the breakfast table and I won’t be doing it fir yiur benefit. How about you put forward your own view on the socialist roots of fascism? It will be very interesting to read and you’ll be in a position to demand a reply.
I already dealt with the protester. He was one of your mob, my exact words.
As for avoiding points. Did you post from your poolside whilst on Holiday? Come on Sid the Sexist. Stop swerving.
Edit. Hey I replied to you two hours ago "It's not simply about "having the temerity to leave the site" - it's about having plenty of time to post nonsense and then suddenly being busy when pulled up on it".
You wanted to crucify me on Saturday for not being on standby for you. You really don't think things through before posting Dollers. [Post edited 5 Feb 2018 10:30]
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| Jacob Rees-Mogg speech interupted by Momentum supporters on 09:16 - Feb 5 with 5298 views | GunnsAirkick |
| Jacob Rees-Mogg speech interupted by Momentum supporters on 08:37 - Feb 5 by GlasgowBlue |
Il be answering Dan in my own good time with a well thought out reply. I won’t be doing it at the breakfast table and I won’t be doing it fir yiur benefit. How about you put forward your own view on the socialist roots of fascism? It will be very interesting to read and you’ll be in a position to demand a reply.
I already dealt with the protester. He was one of your mob, my exact words.
As for avoiding points. Did you post from your poolside whilst on Holiday? Come on Sid the Sexist. Stop swerving.
Edit. Hey I replied to you two hours ago "It's not simply about "having the temerity to leave the site" - it's about having plenty of time to post nonsense and then suddenly being busy when pulled up on it".
You wanted to crucify me on Saturday for not being on standby for you. You really don't think things through before posting Dollers. [Post edited 5 Feb 2018 10:30]
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Yet you've got time to post another Labour attack thread? O.K. then. |  | | |
| Jacob Rees-Mogg speech interupted by Momentum supporters on 09:23 - Feb 5 with 5284 views | GlasgowBlue |
| Jacob Rees-Mogg speech interupted by Momentum supporters on 09:16 - Feb 5 by GunnsAirkick |
Yet you've got time to post another Labour attack thread? O.K. then. |
Yeah. It took all of ten seconds to link an article from a labour council leader.
Dans reply will be well considered and thought out. It will include references from Noble prize winners and links to speeches by people who were there at the time. Not something I’m going to knock off whilst sitting on the loo.
Although it may make uncomfortable reading for those of you on the left. It’s bad enough having Mao and Stalin in your camp. The idea of Hitler and Mussolini being in there as well must be pretty sickening for you. | |
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| Jacob Rees-Mogg speech interupted by Momentum supporters on 10:01 - Feb 5 with 5269 views | GunnsAirkick |
| Jacob Rees-Mogg speech interupted by Momentum supporters on 09:23 - Feb 5 by GlasgowBlue |
Yeah. It took all of ten seconds to link an article from a labour council leader.
Dans reply will be well considered and thought out. It will include references from Noble prize winners and links to speeches by people who were there at the time. Not something I’m going to knock off whilst sitting on the loo.
Although it may make uncomfortable reading for those of you on the left. It’s bad enough having Mao and Stalin in your camp. The idea of Hitler and Mussolini being in there as well must be pretty sickening for you. |
It's not sickening because you and I know you're talking a load nonsense. | | | |
| Jacob Rees-Mogg speech interupted by Momentum supporters on 10:08 - Feb 5 with 5257 views | GlasgowBlue |
| Jacob Rees-Mogg speech interupted by Momentum supporters on 10:01 - Feb 5 by GunnsAirkick |
It's not sickening because you and I know you're talking a load nonsense. |
Why haven'y you challenged esteemed left wing poster No9 who stated, and I quote, "Hitler followed socialist principles to take Germany out of the 30's depression faster & more successfully than any other economy". | |
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| Jacob Rees-Mogg speech interupted by Momentum supporters on 11:02 - Feb 5 with 5228 views | BrixtonBlue |
| Jacob Rees-Mogg speech interupted by Momentum supporters on 08:37 - Feb 5 by GlasgowBlue |
Il be answering Dan in my own good time with a well thought out reply. I won’t be doing it at the breakfast table and I won’t be doing it fir yiur benefit. How about you put forward your own view on the socialist roots of fascism? It will be very interesting to read and you’ll be in a position to demand a reply.
I already dealt with the protester. He was one of your mob, my exact words.
As for avoiding points. Did you post from your poolside whilst on Holiday? Come on Sid the Sexist. Stop swerving.
Edit. Hey I replied to you two hours ago "It's not simply about "having the temerity to leave the site" - it's about having plenty of time to post nonsense and then suddenly being busy when pulled up on it".
You wanted to crucify me on Saturday for not being on standby for you. You really don't think things through before posting Dollers. [Post edited 5 Feb 2018 10:30]
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I did say my 'busy when he's wrong' comments were tongue-in-cheek. You've just had a weekend away, you don't sound very relaxed! | |
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| Jacob Rees-Mogg speech interupted by Momentum supporters on 11:28 - Feb 5 with 5201 views | GlasgowBlue |
| Jacob Rees-Mogg speech interupted by Momentum supporters on 11:02 - Feb 5 by BrixtonBlue |
I did say my 'busy when he's wrong' comments were tongue-in-cheek. You've just had a weekend away, you don't sound very relaxed! |
Firstly I'm not wrong. Secondly I was sitting in a hotel bar whilst my wife was in the spa flicking between emails, checking the home cctv to make sure the kids hadn't opened my house up to all of their pals whilst wee are away, facebook and the Telegraph online when I decided to dip in here. Our friends arrived, and we carried on with our day.
Meanwhile you acted like an over excited puppy posting "Glassers has had a bit of a mare in this thread. No wonder he's disappeared".
It's all a bit sad tbh mate. You act like a married man's bit on the side, waiting for that phone to call. I forgot about you and twtd. I'm sorry. stop taking it so personally.
And that's now the second time you have served my question regarding you posting by the pool when on holiday. | |
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| Jacob Rees-Mogg speech interupted by Momentum supporters on 12:00 - Feb 5 with 5183 views | Archer4721 |
| Jacob Rees-Mogg speech interupted by Momentum supporters on 11:02 - Feb 5 by BrixtonBlue |
I did say my 'busy when he's wrong' comments were tongue-in-cheek. You've just had a weekend away, you don't sound very relaxed! |
Yep it seems that way...Trouble at mill I fear. |  | | |
| Jacob Rees-Mogg speech interupted by Momentum supporters on 12:18 - Feb 5 with 5160 views | GlasgowBlue |
| Jacob Rees-Mogg speech interupted by Momentum supporters on 12:00 - Feb 5 by Archer4721 |
Yep it seems that way...Trouble at mill I fear. |
Now now Mr Bottler. I did say that I am more than happy to debate with you and that you are more than welcome to challenge my views, but if you are only going to follow me around like a stray dog (great line that from Hype) making personal remarks then I will have to div list you.
Now run away chicken.  | |
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| Jacob Rees-Mogg speech interupted by Momentum supporters on 13:09 - Feb 5 with 5113 views | No9 |
| Jacob Rees-Mogg speech interupted by Momentum supporters on 12:18 - Feb 5 by GlasgowBlue |
Now now Mr Bottler. I did say that I am more than happy to debate with you and that you are more than welcome to challenge my views, but if you are only going to follow me around like a stray dog (great line that from Hype) making personal remarks then I will have to div list you.
Now run away chicken. |
Why is it you always resort to insults?
It really means you have lost the argument doesn't it? | | | |
| Jacob Rees-Mogg speech interupted by Momentum supporters on 13:41 - Feb 5 with 5084 views | GlasgowBlue |
| Jacob Rees-Mogg speech interupted by Momentum supporters on 12:46 - Feb 3 by DanTheMan |
I find it quite perplexing and amazing that half a century after this all went down, clever people like yourself STILL fall for the "well they're called National Socialists! Checkmate guise". Why do you think they changed their name? To appeal to socialists, they wanted the support.
He literally murdered the socialists in his own party, the idea he was fine with socialists or a socialist himself is just bad history. Sure, he didn't much like capitalism either, he thought it was a Jewish concept, but that does not make him a socialist.
Communism and Fascism share some similarities, just like Anarcho-Capitalism shares some principles with left wing anarchists but their ideals could not be further from each other. But Nazism completed replaced a core part of socialism (class struggle) and replaced it with race.
Sir Richard John Evans, a historian who has quite a bit of experience with Nazi Germany said: "it would be wrong to see Nazism as a form of, or an outgrowth of, socialism"
It's just utter nonsense. |
It may be embarrassing to people who lean slightly to the left but it is a historical fact that European fascism from the 1920’s/30’s had it’s roots in socialism.
Can I start with exhibit A, a post made by Guthrum, somebody who is acknowledged as a very keen historian, from some time ago. (I hope he won’t mind me using his words in support of view on this thread)
So, at least in theory, were the Italian Fascisti and the German nazis.
When the communist partisans captured Mussolini at the end of the War, they asked him "Why did you betray socialism?". The Strasser faction of the nazi movement was very left wing - but at the same time anti-communist.
Both Italian fascists and the Nazis believed in nationalized industries, advocated progressive taxation schemes, and were anti-capitalist. All socialist beliefs. Both socialism and fascism require a scapegoat to mobilise support. With socialism it is class. With fascism it is race. Two different scapegoats to achieve the same ends. State control with destruction of capitalism.
Marxist socialists were internationalist seeing borders as a tool of capitalists and therefore went down the internationalist route whereas fascist socialists saw the route to socialism being achieved by appealing to an individual country’s prejudices. Therefore the Jews were targeted as the capitalists in Germany.
So it seems to be that the Nazi’s abhorrent views on race is the only reason has that National Socialism is not seen as being socialist. The idea that Hitler cannot really have been a socialist because he advocated genocide ignores the fact that these his evil acts were only carried out in greater number by two other socialists, Mao and Stalin. Despite the fact that the fascists were completely anti capitalist with rhetoric similar to that John McDonnell uses today.
Facism most definitely has it’s roots in socialism. Mussolini was a leading left wing Italian socialist who formed a fascist party. Oswald Mosely formed his New Party, who became the Blackshirts, with 6 former Labour MP’s, after leaving the Labour party when they rejected his Mosley Memorandum.
As Harold Nicolson, a Labour MP noted at the time “fascism was a kind of militarised socialism” and "it is certainly a socialist experiment in that it destroys individuality". That sort of thinking wasn’t unusual in the 19302’ There was no great outcry from socialist around the world that Hitler had stolen the name socialist in his party under false pretences. The Nazis were accepted as socialists. It’s only 70 odd years of revisionism that changed the perception. That’s why it annoys so many on the right when the BNP are labelled a right wing party. Racism aside, their policies of large increases in state pensions; more money for the NHS; improved worker protection; state ownership of key industries could be in Jezza’s last manifesto. It’s as if socialist can’t be racist and still be socialist.
And whilst we are on the subject of race, fascism is closely associated with Eugenics. The creation of the master race. Sorry to tell you but in this country it was the founding fathers of socialism who were the keenest on Eugenics.
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2012/feb/17/eugenics-skeleton-rattles-
George Bernard Shaw is seen as one of the founding fathers of socialism in the UK. An esteemed Fabian no less. Yet this is what he had to say on Eugenics. "The only fundamental and possible socialism is the socialisation of the selective breeding of man." He also described Jews as “the real enemy, the invader from the East, the ruffian, the oriental parasite.”
Oh and his critique of Mussolini: “Socialists should be delighted to find at last a socialist who speaks and thinks as responsible rulers do”.
What seems to be forgotten now is that During the 1920s & 30s, there was little difference between fascists and Bolsheviks. Critics of Hitler's National Socialism often called it, National Bolshevism. The Nazis and the Communists were drying to get their support from the same pool.
As Hayek pointed out in his book the Road to Serfdom, during the 1930s it was relatively easy to convert a communist into a Nazi and vice versa. There was little difference between the ideology and both were anti capitalist. Hayek also concluded that “The fight between Fascists and Socialists is always the most vicious. As it is a fight between brothers”.
I know that none of this sits comfortably with people who claim to be socialist or left leaning. It doesn’t reflect badly on their thinking now any more than the actions of Mao or Stalin do. But there is definitely a blind spot on the links between socialism and fascism. To the extent that it is quite rightly deemed offensive to wear the swastika on a t shirt but considered trendy to wear one with the hammer and the sickle or a picture of Chairman Mao. [Post edited 5 Feb 2018 13:46]
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| Jacob Rees-Mogg speech interupted by Momentum supporters on 13:41 - Feb 5 with 5082 views | BanksterDebtSlave |
| Jacob Rees-Mogg speech interupted by Momentum supporters on 08:37 - Feb 5 by GlasgowBlue |
Il be answering Dan in my own good time with a well thought out reply. I won’t be doing it at the breakfast table and I won’t be doing it fir yiur benefit. How about you put forward your own view on the socialist roots of fascism? It will be very interesting to read and you’ll be in a position to demand a reply.
I already dealt with the protester. He was one of your mob, my exact words.
As for avoiding points. Did you post from your poolside whilst on Holiday? Come on Sid the Sexist. Stop swerving.
Edit. Hey I replied to you two hours ago "It's not simply about "having the temerity to leave the site" - it's about having plenty of time to post nonsense and then suddenly being busy when pulled up on it".
You wanted to crucify me on Saturday for not being on standby for you. You really don't think things through before posting Dollers. [Post edited 5 Feb 2018 10:30]
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At a quick glance if appears that you may have launched a distraction thread.... or maybe you have replied on that one ? |  |
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| Jacob Rees-Mogg speech interupted by Momentum supporters on 13:43 - Feb 5 with 5078 views | GlasgowBlue |
| Jacob Rees-Mogg speech interupted by Momentum supporters on 13:41 - Feb 5 by BanksterDebtSlave |
At a quick glance if appears that you may have launched a distraction thread.... or maybe you have replied on that one ? |
Your timing, as ever, is impeccable.
Arf! | |
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| Jacob Rees-Mogg speech interupted by Momentum supporters on 13:47 - Feb 5 with 5060 views | BanksterDebtSlave |
| Jacob Rees-Mogg speech interupted by Momentum supporters on 13:43 - Feb 5 by GlasgowBlue |
Your timing, as ever, is impeccable.
Arf! |
We must have a psychic link Glassers or you've got cameras in my house !
"Arf" really isn't a good look you know. | |
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| Jacob Rees-Mogg speech interupted by Momentum supporters on 13:49 - Feb 5 with 5047 views | BrixtonBlue |
| Jacob Rees-Mogg speech interupted by Momentum supporters on 11:28 - Feb 5 by GlasgowBlue |
Firstly I'm not wrong. Secondly I was sitting in a hotel bar whilst my wife was in the spa flicking between emails, checking the home cctv to make sure the kids hadn't opened my house up to all of their pals whilst wee are away, facebook and the Telegraph online when I decided to dip in here. Our friends arrived, and we carried on with our day.
Meanwhile you acted like an over excited puppy posting "Glassers has had a bit of a mare in this thread. No wonder he's disappeared".
It's all a bit sad tbh mate. You act like a married man's bit on the side, waiting for that phone to call. I forgot about you and twtd. I'm sorry. stop taking it so personally.
And that's now the second time you have served my question regarding you posting by the pool when on holiday. |
Effing hell. For the third or fourth time, it was tongue-in-cheek. I was mucking about.
You sound like you need a weekend away. | |
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| Jacob Rees-Mogg speech interupted by Momentum supporters on 13:53 - Feb 5 with 5026 views | No9 |
| Jacob Rees-Mogg speech interupted by Momentum supporters on 13:41 - Feb 5 by GlasgowBlue |
It may be embarrassing to people who lean slightly to the left but it is a historical fact that European fascism from the 1920’s/30’s had it’s roots in socialism.
Can I start with exhibit A, a post made by Guthrum, somebody who is acknowledged as a very keen historian, from some time ago. (I hope he won’t mind me using his words in support of view on this thread)
So, at least in theory, were the Italian Fascisti and the German nazis.
When the communist partisans captured Mussolini at the end of the War, they asked him "Why did you betray socialism?". The Strasser faction of the nazi movement was very left wing - but at the same time anti-communist.
Both Italian fascists and the Nazis believed in nationalized industries, advocated progressive taxation schemes, and were anti-capitalist. All socialist beliefs. Both socialism and fascism require a scapegoat to mobilise support. With socialism it is class. With fascism it is race. Two different scapegoats to achieve the same ends. State control with destruction of capitalism.
Marxist socialists were internationalist seeing borders as a tool of capitalists and therefore went down the internationalist route whereas fascist socialists saw the route to socialism being achieved by appealing to an individual country’s prejudices. Therefore the Jews were targeted as the capitalists in Germany.
So it seems to be that the Nazi’s abhorrent views on race is the only reason has that National Socialism is not seen as being socialist. The idea that Hitler cannot really have been a socialist because he advocated genocide ignores the fact that these his evil acts were only carried out in greater number by two other socialists, Mao and Stalin. Despite the fact that the fascists were completely anti capitalist with rhetoric similar to that John McDonnell uses today.
Facism most definitely has it’s roots in socialism. Mussolini was a leading left wing Italian socialist who formed a fascist party. Oswald Mosely formed his New Party, who became the Blackshirts, with 6 former Labour MP’s, after leaving the Labour party when they rejected his Mosley Memorandum.
As Harold Nicolson, a Labour MP noted at the time “fascism was a kind of militarised socialism” and "it is certainly a socialist experiment in that it destroys individuality". That sort of thinking wasn’t unusual in the 19302’ There was no great outcry from socialist around the world that Hitler had stolen the name socialist in his party under false pretences. The Nazis were accepted as socialists. It’s only 70 odd years of revisionism that changed the perception. That’s why it annoys so many on the right when the BNP are labelled a right wing party. Racism aside, their policies of large increases in state pensions; more money for the NHS; improved worker protection; state ownership of key industries could be in Jezza’s last manifesto. It’s as if socialist can’t be racist and still be socialist.
And whilst we are on the subject of race, fascism is closely associated with Eugenics. The creation of the master race. Sorry to tell you but in this country it was the founding fathers of socialism who were the keenest on Eugenics.
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2012/feb/17/eugenics-skeleton-rattles-
George Bernard Shaw is seen as one of the founding fathers of socialism in the UK. An esteemed Fabian no less. Yet this is what he had to say on Eugenics. "The only fundamental and possible socialism is the socialisation of the selective breeding of man." He also described Jews as “the real enemy, the invader from the East, the ruffian, the oriental parasite.”
Oh and his critique of Mussolini: “Socialists should be delighted to find at last a socialist who speaks and thinks as responsible rulers do”.
What seems to be forgotten now is that During the 1920s & 30s, there was little difference between fascists and Bolsheviks. Critics of Hitler's National Socialism often called it, National Bolshevism. The Nazis and the Communists were drying to get their support from the same pool.
As Hayek pointed out in his book the Road to Serfdom, during the 1930s it was relatively easy to convert a communist into a Nazi and vice versa. There was little difference between the ideology and both were anti capitalist. Hayek also concluded that “The fight between Fascists and Socialists is always the most vicious. As it is a fight between brothers”.
I know that none of this sits comfortably with people who claim to be socialist or left leaning. It doesn’t reflect badly on their thinking now any more than the actions of Mao or Stalin do. But there is definitely a blind spot on the links between socialism and fascism. To the extent that it is quite rightly deemed offensive to wear the swastika on a t shirt but considered trendy to wear one with the hammer and the sickle or a picture of Chairman Mao. [Post edited 5 Feb 2018 13:46]
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So as she was a determined disciple of F Hayek are you telling us Mrs Thatcher was a Nazi or, maybe a Communist?
As usual you selectively quote | | | |
| Jacob Rees-Mogg speech interupted by Momentum supporters on 13:54 - Feb 5 with 5022 views | GlasgowBlue |
| Jacob Rees-Mogg speech interupted by Momentum supporters on 13:49 - Feb 5 by BrixtonBlue |
Effing hell. For the third or fourth time, it was tongue-in-cheek. I was mucking about.
You sound like you need a weekend away. |
No it wasn't. You were butt hurt from last week and jumped on me not replying to a post on Saturday.
Anyway, I now look forward to your forensic like destruction of my last post about the the socialist roots of fascism. It should be a doozy.
edit. 4th time you've swerved. Did you post from your holiday whilst at the poolside? [Post edited 5 Feb 2018 14:14]
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| Jacob Rees-Mogg speech interupted by Momentum supporters on 13:59 - Feb 5 with 5006 views | StokieBlue |
| Jacob Rees-Mogg speech interupted by Momentum supporters on 13:53 - Feb 5 by No9 |
So as she was a determined disciple of F Hayek are you telling us Mrs Thatcher was a Nazi or, maybe a Communist?
As usual you selectively quote |
I've not read the whole thread but can you explain that point?
Hayek was a believer in letting the markets find their own fair value and that any government intervention in the markets disturbed the market equilibrium and ultimately ended in disaster. His beliefs were essentially the exact opposition of communism.
"The Road to Serfdom (German: Der Weg zur Knechtschaft) is a book written between 1940 and 1943 by Austrian British economist and philosopher Friedrich von Hayek, in which the author "[warns] of the danger of tyranny that inevitably results from government control of economic decision-making through central planning."[1] He further argues that the abandonment of individualism and classical liberalism inevitably leads to a loss of freedom, the creation of an oppressive society, the tyranny of a dictator, and the serfdom of the individual. Hayek challenged the general view among British academics that fascism (including National Socialism) was a capitalist reaction against socialism. He argued that fascism, National Socialism and socialism had common roots in central economic planning and empowering the state over the individual."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Friedrich_Hayek
SB |  |
| Avatar - M51 - The Whirlpool Galaxy - Taken on 29th April 2024 |
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| Jacob Rees-Mogg speech interupted by Momentum supporters on 14:02 - Feb 5 with 4999 views | lowhouseblue |
| Jacob Rees-Mogg speech interupted by Momentum supporters on 13:41 - Feb 5 by GlasgowBlue |
It may be embarrassing to people who lean slightly to the left but it is a historical fact that European fascism from the 1920’s/30’s had it’s roots in socialism.
Can I start with exhibit A, a post made by Guthrum, somebody who is acknowledged as a very keen historian, from some time ago. (I hope he won’t mind me using his words in support of view on this thread)
So, at least in theory, were the Italian Fascisti and the German nazis.
When the communist partisans captured Mussolini at the end of the War, they asked him "Why did you betray socialism?". The Strasser faction of the nazi movement was very left wing - but at the same time anti-communist.
Both Italian fascists and the Nazis believed in nationalized industries, advocated progressive taxation schemes, and were anti-capitalist. All socialist beliefs. Both socialism and fascism require a scapegoat to mobilise support. With socialism it is class. With fascism it is race. Two different scapegoats to achieve the same ends. State control with destruction of capitalism.
Marxist socialists were internationalist seeing borders as a tool of capitalists and therefore went down the internationalist route whereas fascist socialists saw the route to socialism being achieved by appealing to an individual country’s prejudices. Therefore the Jews were targeted as the capitalists in Germany.
So it seems to be that the Nazi’s abhorrent views on race is the only reason has that National Socialism is not seen as being socialist. The idea that Hitler cannot really have been a socialist because he advocated genocide ignores the fact that these his evil acts were only carried out in greater number by two other socialists, Mao and Stalin. Despite the fact that the fascists were completely anti capitalist with rhetoric similar to that John McDonnell uses today.
Facism most definitely has it’s roots in socialism. Mussolini was a leading left wing Italian socialist who formed a fascist party. Oswald Mosely formed his New Party, who became the Blackshirts, with 6 former Labour MP’s, after leaving the Labour party when they rejected his Mosley Memorandum.
As Harold Nicolson, a Labour MP noted at the time “fascism was a kind of militarised socialism” and "it is certainly a socialist experiment in that it destroys individuality". That sort of thinking wasn’t unusual in the 19302’ There was no great outcry from socialist around the world that Hitler had stolen the name socialist in his party under false pretences. The Nazis were accepted as socialists. It’s only 70 odd years of revisionism that changed the perception. That’s why it annoys so many on the right when the BNP are labelled a right wing party. Racism aside, their policies of large increases in state pensions; more money for the NHS; improved worker protection; state ownership of key industries could be in Jezza’s last manifesto. It’s as if socialist can’t be racist and still be socialist.
And whilst we are on the subject of race, fascism is closely associated with Eugenics. The creation of the master race. Sorry to tell you but in this country it was the founding fathers of socialism who were the keenest on Eugenics.
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2012/feb/17/eugenics-skeleton-rattles-
George Bernard Shaw is seen as one of the founding fathers of socialism in the UK. An esteemed Fabian no less. Yet this is what he had to say on Eugenics. "The only fundamental and possible socialism is the socialisation of the selective breeding of man." He also described Jews as “the real enemy, the invader from the East, the ruffian, the oriental parasite.”
Oh and his critique of Mussolini: “Socialists should be delighted to find at last a socialist who speaks and thinks as responsible rulers do”.
What seems to be forgotten now is that During the 1920s & 30s, there was little difference between fascists and Bolsheviks. Critics of Hitler's National Socialism often called it, National Bolshevism. The Nazis and the Communists were drying to get their support from the same pool.
As Hayek pointed out in his book the Road to Serfdom, during the 1930s it was relatively easy to convert a communist into a Nazi and vice versa. There was little difference between the ideology and both were anti capitalist. Hayek also concluded that “The fight between Fascists and Socialists is always the most vicious. As it is a fight between brothers”.
I know that none of this sits comfortably with people who claim to be socialist or left leaning. It doesn’t reflect badly on their thinking now any more than the actions of Mao or Stalin do. But there is definitely a blind spot on the links between socialism and fascism. To the extent that it is quite rightly deemed offensive to wear the swastika on a t shirt but considered trendy to wear one with the hammer and the sickle or a picture of Chairman Mao. [Post edited 5 Feb 2018 13:46]
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what you're demonstrating is the crass way in which we discuss politics and categorise ideologies. the idea of a simple spectrum with a left and a right, and the difference between parties getting wider as you move about the spectrum is clearly nonsense. ideology is multi-dimensional and on some of those dimensions apparently opposed ideologies coincide. the extreme left and right are both statist and utterly opposed to individual freedom. they are both populist is trying to whip up anger against some bogey man. they are both anti-democratic. at the same time it is too simplistic to use terms like 'socialist' in the belief that it has some fixed meaning which covers the entire left. historically socialism has been very diverse. you can pick out authors who had something good to say about mussolini - but there are hundred more who didn't. |  |
| And so as the loose-bowelled pigeon of time swoops low over the unsuspecting tourist of destiny, and the flatulent skunk of fate wanders into the air-conditioning system of eternity, I notice it's the end of the show |
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| Jacob Rees-Mogg speech interupted by Momentum supporters on 14:09 - Feb 5 with 4980 views | GlasgowBlue |
| Jacob Rees-Mogg speech interupted by Momentum supporters on 14:02 - Feb 5 by lowhouseblue |
what you're demonstrating is the crass way in which we discuss politics and categorise ideologies. the idea of a simple spectrum with a left and a right, and the difference between parties getting wider as you move about the spectrum is clearly nonsense. ideology is multi-dimensional and on some of those dimensions apparently opposed ideologies coincide. the extreme left and right are both statist and utterly opposed to individual freedom. they are both populist is trying to whip up anger against some bogey man. they are both anti-democratic. at the same time it is too simplistic to use terms like 'socialist' in the belief that it has some fixed meaning which covers the entire left. historically socialism has been very diverse. you can pick out authors who had something good to say about mussolini - but there are hundred more who didn't. |
Would you accept my point, made far more eloquently by Hayek, that fascism had it's roots in socialism and that the main players came from a socialist background. More so Mussolini and Mosley than Hitler and that the main difference between fascism and communism was one based the prejudice on class whilst the another did so on race? | |
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