| The 'special military operation' continues to reach new lows. on 16:49 - Nov 10 with 6125 views | Kropotkin123 |
| The 'special military operation' continues to reach new lows. on 17:00 - Nov 9 by Kievthegreat |
I amongst all the discussions about OCSE maps and reports, missed the welcome news that the Russians have publically stated they are withdrawing from Kherson.
The question now will likely revolve around how orderly the retreat is and whether Ukraine can capitalise to either cause significant damage to the rear guard, or they can capture heavy equipment that Russians cany retreat with. |
They've been preparing this retreat for a while, to the point where many observers thought it was a trap. So I wouldn't expect anything as significant as what we saw around Kharkiv.
Observers are now saying we're probably 2 weeks away from an assault on western Kherson, and that Russia has military dress in civilian clothing with camera crews at the ready.
I'm quite apprehensive about this. It looks more organized and then there is the temptation to cross and take the eastern side and that is likely to be a difficult choke point if Russia chooses to put up significant resistance.
I think attacking Melitopol prior to eastern Kherson would be considered, depending on whether the Ukrainians have the stability in Eastern Kherson and manpower to pivot. But I can't see an undertaking like that happening until the spring.
Depending on logistics and fatigue, perhaps some sort of redeployment to try and take Svatove might happen before then. They're still fortifying by the rivers they took around there the last I read. Something the Russians didn't do at a massive cost to them.
Anyway, I'm rambling. We're entering into a challenging time and I wish Ukraine all the luck, fortune and success. |  |
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| The 'special military operation' continues to reach new lows. on 03:43 - Nov 11 with 5989 views | TeHuia |
| The 'special military operation' continues to reach new lows. on 18:58 - Nov 10 by Eireannach_gorm |
One for Eric 
|
Why not ask Eric what he thinks about Roger Waters being put on a death list?
-
As a Town fan I've visited the forum often but it appears always with the Football filter on. A week or so back I must have clicked on the General or All Posts filter and this thread was at the top. I saw it was a very long one and thought 'Hmm, I wonder what other Town fans think about that subject'.
Well, it's been interesting, and sadly my first impression has been proven correct and the reason for made apparent.
I must admit I would pay to see a debate on the matter between Laureate Professor and Professor Emeritus Chomsky and our fellow scribe, the worthy kropotkin123.
"The point is that this is not a contest of saints versus sinners, or of Mordor versus the Shire".
For that I must credit the Daily Mail, links from which I've noticed are acceptable to post here, so this link should meet with unaminous approval:
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-10581335/PETER-HITCHENS-saw-coming-Th
"Whenever you find yourself on the side of the majority, it is time to pause and reflect".
- Mark Twain
(edit:forgot a bit) [Post edited 11 Nov 2022 3:45]
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| The 'special military operation' continues to reach new lows. on 07:46 - Nov 11 with 5960 views | Churchman |
| The 'special military operation' continues to reach new lows. on 03:43 - Nov 11 by TeHuia |
Why not ask Eric what he thinks about Roger Waters being put on a death list?
-
As a Town fan I've visited the forum often but it appears always with the Football filter on. A week or so back I must have clicked on the General or All Posts filter and this thread was at the top. I saw it was a very long one and thought 'Hmm, I wonder what other Town fans think about that subject'.
Well, it's been interesting, and sadly my first impression has been proven correct and the reason for made apparent.
I must admit I would pay to see a debate on the matter between Laureate Professor and Professor Emeritus Chomsky and our fellow scribe, the worthy kropotkin123.
"The point is that this is not a contest of saints versus sinners, or of Mordor versus the Shire".
For that I must credit the Daily Mail, links from which I've noticed are acceptable to post here, so this link should meet with unaminous approval:
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-10581335/PETER-HITCHENS-saw-coming-Th
"Whenever you find yourself on the side of the majority, it is time to pause and reflect".
- Mark Twain
(edit:forgot a bit) [Post edited 11 Nov 2022 3:45]
|
Without hiding behind RT News end articles of your choosing, here is a simple closed question for you:
Do you believe Russia was right to invade Ukraine? |  | | |
| The 'special military operation' continues to reach new lows. on 08:19 - Nov 11 with 5940 views | Kropotkin123 |
| The 'special military operation' continues to reach new lows. on 03:43 - Nov 11 by TeHuia |
Why not ask Eric what he thinks about Roger Waters being put on a death list?
-
As a Town fan I've visited the forum often but it appears always with the Football filter on. A week or so back I must have clicked on the General or All Posts filter and this thread was at the top. I saw it was a very long one and thought 'Hmm, I wonder what other Town fans think about that subject'.
Well, it's been interesting, and sadly my first impression has been proven correct and the reason for made apparent.
I must admit I would pay to see a debate on the matter between Laureate Professor and Professor Emeritus Chomsky and our fellow scribe, the worthy kropotkin123.
"The point is that this is not a contest of saints versus sinners, or of Mordor versus the Shire".
For that I must credit the Daily Mail, links from which I've noticed are acceptable to post here, so this link should meet with unaminous approval:
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-10581335/PETER-HITCHENS-saw-coming-Th
"Whenever you find yourself on the side of the majority, it is time to pause and reflect".
- Mark Twain
(edit:forgot a bit) [Post edited 11 Nov 2022 3:45]
|
How embarrassing. You don't even have the courage to address my points directly. Hiding behind quotes from a humourist who's been dead for over a century, whilst telling people you're being factual.
How predictable. You're trying to control the discourse again - changing the perimeters of the discussion and attempting to play the victim. Let us get the violins out for the person who just discovered the general tab. Let's excuse their abhorrent propaganda.
It is clear you have no intention of reaching some sort of objective truth, you are just here to spread misinformation.
1. Ukraine is an independent sovereign nation
2. It defended its own territory
3. Ukraine's actions to defend it's own territory is not provocation
4. Russia has no legal basis to invade Ukraine
5. Russia has no legal basis to annex Ukrainian territory | |
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| The 'special military operation' continues to reach new lows. on 10:08 - Nov 11 with 5907 views | TeHuia |
| The 'special military operation' continues to reach new lows. on 07:46 - Nov 11 by Churchman |
Without hiding behind RT News end articles of your choosing, here is a simple closed question for you:
Do you believe Russia was right to invade Ukraine? |
> Do you believe Russia was right to invade Ukraine?
Thank you for asking an honest question.
No, I do not think they were right. | | | |
| The 'special military operation' continues to reach new lows. on 10:26 - Nov 11 with 5887 views | TeHuia |
| The 'special military operation' continues to reach new lows. on 10:08 - Nov 11 by TeHuia |
> Do you believe Russia was right to invade Ukraine?
Thank you for asking an honest question.
No, I do not think they were right. |
But now it's time for me to ask you an honest question.
Do you think they were provoked? | | | |
| The 'special military operation' continues to reach new lows. on 11:14 - Nov 11 with 5884 views | PassionNotAnger |
| The 'special military operation' continues to reach new lows. on 10:26 - Nov 11 by TeHuia |
But now it's time for me to ask you an honest question.
Do you think they were provoked? |
That’s easy,
No they weren’t provoked by any reasonable definition that justified their actions.
Provocation can be subjective based on the sanity or morality of a person, therefore Putin may “feel” he was sufficiently provoked but the reality is that he’s reverse engineered provocation in his mind to justify what he’s always wanted to do. |  | | |
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| The 'special military operation' continues to reach new lows. on 11:59 - Nov 11 with 5873 views | Churchman |
| The 'special military operation' continues to reach new lows. on 10:26 - Nov 11 by TeHuia |
But now it's time for me to ask you an honest question.
Do you think they were provoked? |
No.
They were not provoked into conducting an invasion of Ukraine in my view.
The public reasoning for their actions may sit well with their domestic audience and I’m sure they may even have convinced themselves and others, but the reality of what he has done is indefensible. | | | |
| The 'special military operation' continues to reach new lows. on 15:15 - Nov 11 with 5820 views | Eireannach_gorm |
| The 'special military operation' continues to reach new lows. on 03:43 - Nov 11 by TeHuia |
Why not ask Eric what he thinks about Roger Waters being put on a death list?
-
As a Town fan I've visited the forum often but it appears always with the Football filter on. A week or so back I must have clicked on the General or All Posts filter and this thread was at the top. I saw it was a very long one and thought 'Hmm, I wonder what other Town fans think about that subject'.
Well, it's been interesting, and sadly my first impression has been proven correct and the reason for made apparent.
I must admit I would pay to see a debate on the matter between Laureate Professor and Professor Emeritus Chomsky and our fellow scribe, the worthy kropotkin123.
"The point is that this is not a contest of saints versus sinners, or of Mordor versus the Shire".
For that I must credit the Daily Mail, links from which I've noticed are acceptable to post here, so this link should meet with unaminous approval:
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-10581335/PETER-HITCHENS-saw-coming-Th
"Whenever you find yourself on the side of the majority, it is time to pause and reflect".
- Mark Twain
(edit:forgot a bit) [Post edited 11 Nov 2022 3:45]
|
I promised myself that I would not be drawn into futile disagreements with people who have no intention of changing their opinion whatever the facts to the contrary. In the best 'allo 'allo style I will do this only once.
Looking at your Peter Hitchen's article I immediately spotted which side he was coming from.
It was almost funny to see. I hoped at that time that it would work out well. For the Ukrainians had begun to be silly.
In a country crammed with Russians, they were trying to make Russian a second-class language.
Russians who had lived there happily for decades were pressured to take Ukrainian citizenship and adopt Ukrainian versions of their Christian names.
The schools were promoting a national hero, Stepan Bandera, who Russians strongly disliked and regarded as a terrorist.
And they were teaching history which often had an anti-Russian tinge. Quite a few people told me they felt put upon by these policies. Why couldn't they just be left alone?
Much like The Serbs in Kosovo who also decided that they needn't abide by the laws of the country they are living in, Russians in Ukraine were being 'persecuted' by being requested to follow the rules of the country they were residing in.
I have an analogy that indicates the ridiculousness of the Russian position. What would be general view ( or even your own ) regarding the scenario that the Republic of Ireland annexed County Derry because there were a lot of people who had an affinity and allegance to RoI coupled with the fact that the nasty Unionists would not pass the Irish Language act and picked few Catholics in the Northern Irish team? Its well documented the oppression of Northern Republicans so the RoI could maintain that they were provoked ( there was genuine consideration of it in 1969 ). |  | | |
| The 'special military operation' continues to reach new lows. on 16:07 - Nov 11 with 5800 views | Churchman |
| The 'special military operation' continues to reach new lows. on 15:15 - Nov 11 by Eireannach_gorm |
I promised myself that I would not be drawn into futile disagreements with people who have no intention of changing their opinion whatever the facts to the contrary. In the best 'allo 'allo style I will do this only once.
Looking at your Peter Hitchen's article I immediately spotted which side he was coming from.
It was almost funny to see. I hoped at that time that it would work out well. For the Ukrainians had begun to be silly.
In a country crammed with Russians, they were trying to make Russian a second-class language.
Russians who had lived there happily for decades were pressured to take Ukrainian citizenship and adopt Ukrainian versions of their Christian names.
The schools were promoting a national hero, Stepan Bandera, who Russians strongly disliked and regarded as a terrorist.
And they were teaching history which often had an anti-Russian tinge. Quite a few people told me they felt put upon by these policies. Why couldn't they just be left alone?
Much like The Serbs in Kosovo who also decided that they needn't abide by the laws of the country they are living in, Russians in Ukraine were being 'persecuted' by being requested to follow the rules of the country they were residing in.
I have an analogy that indicates the ridiculousness of the Russian position. What would be general view ( or even your own ) regarding the scenario that the Republic of Ireland annexed County Derry because there were a lot of people who had an affinity and allegance to RoI coupled with the fact that the nasty Unionists would not pass the Irish Language act and picked few Catholics in the Northern Irish team? Its well documented the oppression of Northern Republicans so the RoI could maintain that they were provoked ( there was genuine consideration of it in 1969 ). |
The pro Russian narrative reminds me very much of the Gleiwitz incident that topped off a series of incidents the nasty aggressive Poles had inflicted on defenceless, persecuted Germans:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gleiwitz_incident
However ludicrous and disbelieved it was by France, Britain and others, plenty did believe it, particularly in Germany. | | | |
| The 'special military operation' continues to reach new lows. on 16:23 - Nov 11 with 5774 views | Churchman |
| The 'special military operation' continues to reach new lows. on 16:49 - Nov 10 by Kropotkin123 |
They've been preparing this retreat for a while, to the point where many observers thought it was a trap. So I wouldn't expect anything as significant as what we saw around Kharkiv.
Observers are now saying we're probably 2 weeks away from an assault on western Kherson, and that Russia has military dress in civilian clothing with camera crews at the ready.
I'm quite apprehensive about this. It looks more organized and then there is the temptation to cross and take the eastern side and that is likely to be a difficult choke point if Russia chooses to put up significant resistance.
I think attacking Melitopol prior to eastern Kherson would be considered, depending on whether the Ukrainians have the stability in Eastern Kherson and manpower to pivot. But I can't see an undertaking like that happening until the spring.
Depending on logistics and fatigue, perhaps some sort of redeployment to try and take Svatove might happen before then. They're still fortifying by the rivers they took around there the last I read. Something the Russians didn't do at a massive cost to them.
Anyway, I'm rambling. We're entering into a challenging time and I wish Ukraine all the luck, fortune and success. |
Events seem to be progressing quicker than anyone could have dreamed possible
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2022/nov/11/reports-of-wounded-soldiers-being-
It seems the retreat was not the most orderly ever. | | | |
| The 'special military operation' continues to reach new lows. on 16:23 - Nov 11 with 5776 views | Kropotkin123 |
Was not expecting to wake up to scenes like this. Just yesterday observers where says scenes like this would be two weeks away.
After the last few days of orc propaganda on here, it is a beautiful sight to see Ukrainian soldiers welcomed like the heroes they are for liberating citizens who have suffered from this unprovoked illegal war.
I was reading ISW before I went to bed last night and they said that the western understanding of a tricky winter for both armies is a misconception. Autumn and spring is most tricky for both due to the mud. But winter will be disproportionately difficult for Russia, as Ukraine's modern weapons are better for the cold than Russia's old ones.
Continued support should see continued success. Well done Ukraine, well done to those those governments that support Ukraine, and well done those who continue to stress the importance of this support. | |
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| The 'special military operation' continues to reach new lows. on 16:54 - Nov 11 with 5761 views | Kropotkin123 |
I didn't realise you had posted, as we did so at the same time. Thank you for sharing the article, which had the clip below. Such great news that we've seen minimal casualties compared to what we expected. Though we need to be careful not to provoke the Russians and their minions with images like this...
[Post edited 11 Nov 2022 16:57]
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| The 'special military operation' continues to reach new lows. on 17:13 - Nov 11 with 5737 views | Churchman |
| The 'special military operation' continues to reach new lows. on 16:54 - Nov 11 by Kropotkin123 |
I didn't realise you had posted, as we did so at the same time. Thank you for sharing the article, which had the clip below. Such great news that we've seen minimal casualties compared to what we expected. Though we need to be careful not to provoke the Russians and their minions with images like this...
[Post edited 11 Nov 2022 16:57]
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Indeed we did 😃. Fantastic scenes. Obviously nothing compared to the rapture, flowers and joy the Russian liberators were greeted with when they were welcomed earlier in the year. Not! The Ukrainian forces have been amazing and are re-writing the military how to do it manuals.
It looks like Russia wants to hunker down for the winter to train its cannon fodder for the spring (not enough time) and in the hope that support for Ukraine wanes. In terms of kit, I’m sure they can replace basic hardware or continue to raid the old stock toy cupboard but they will have problems replacing the high tech stuff with the sanctions.
There is also no guarantee that Russian morale won’t melt further as the winter makes life hard, especially if Ukraine nibbles away at them with winter trained people. | | | |
| The 'special military operation' continues to reach new lows. on 18:18 - Nov 11 with 5686 views | Trequartista |
| The 'special military operation' continues to reach new lows. on 10:26 - Nov 11 by TeHuia |
But now it's time for me to ask you an honest question.
Do you think they were provoked? |
I think they were to a certain extent.
The invasion was totally unjustified, barbaric and wrong, Putin has always been a tyrant, and Russia lie and lie about everything.
But you could still cite provocations of having NATO countries on their borders installing weapons that can be compared to the Cuban Missile Crisis, and you could still say that Viktor Yanukovych was deposed in what amount to a US-backed putsch rather than fairly voted out of office.
It's not one or the other, you can hold all of those views simultaneously [Post edited 11 Nov 2022 18:19]
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| The 'special military operation' continues to reach new lows. on 18:37 - Nov 11 with 5668 views | EdwardStone |
| The 'special military operation' continues to reach new lows. on 18:18 - Nov 11 by Trequartista |
I think they were to a certain extent.
The invasion was totally unjustified, barbaric and wrong, Putin has always been a tyrant, and Russia lie and lie about everything.
But you could still cite provocations of having NATO countries on their borders installing weapons that can be compared to the Cuban Missile Crisis, and you could still say that Viktor Yanukovych was deposed in what amount to a US-backed putsch rather than fairly voted out of office.
It's not one or the other, you can hold all of those views simultaneously [Post edited 11 Nov 2022 18:19]
|
" Look what you made me do "
The anthem of abusers everywhere
It is like they didn't have a choice..... |  | | |
| The 'special military operation' continues to reach new lows. on 19:04 - Nov 11 with 5640 views | Trequartista |
| The 'special military operation' continues to reach new lows. on 18:37 - Nov 11 by EdwardStone |
" Look what you made me do "
The anthem of abusers everywhere
It is like they didn't have a choice..... |
If i've understood correctly, you are interpreting my post as me justifying Russia's invasion. I'm not, I'm condemning it. But I'm saying it is possible to condemn it and give examples of provocation. | |
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| The 'special military operation' continues to reach new lows. on 08:48 - Nov 12 with 5469 views | EdwardStone |
| The 'special military operation' continues to reach new lows. on 19:04 - Nov 11 by Trequartista |
If i've understood correctly, you are interpreting my post as me justifying Russia's invasion. I'm not, I'm condemning it. But I'm saying it is possible to condemn it and give examples of provocation. |
Nothing personal Mr T, just my general frustration at anyone who starts the whole
" Yeah, but.... "
line of justication foe Russia's appalling behaviour.
I tend not to deal in absolutes, but in the case of this invasion there literally is no "On the other hand...." | | | |
| The 'special military operation' continues to reach new lows. on 04:59 - Nov 13 with 5330 views | TeHuia |
| The 'special military operation' continues to reach new lows. on 11:59 - Nov 11 by Churchman |
No.
They were not provoked into conducting an invasion of Ukraine in my view.
The public reasoning for their actions may sit well with their domestic audience and I’m sure they may even have convinced themselves and others, but the reality of what he has done is indefensible. |
Kia ora e hoa
You perhaps speak of provocation as if there were degrees of it?
Many among us may have had cause to ask themselves how much provocation is enough before we react.
Wisely or unwisely.
I only wish to establish that provocation existed, or it did not.
NgÄ manaakitanga | | | |
| The 'special military operation' continues to reach new lows. on 07:44 - Nov 13 with 5306 views | Churchman |
| The 'special military operation' continues to reach new lows. on 04:59 - Nov 13 by TeHuia |
Kia ora e hoa
You perhaps speak of provocation as if there were degrees of it?
Many among us may have had cause to ask themselves how much provocation is enough before we react.
Wisely or unwisely.
I only wish to establish that provocation existed, or it did not.
NgÄ manaakitanga |
It depends on what you describe as provocation - see the above post on Gleiwitz.
Basically, Ukraine’s existence as a sovereign state is to Russia a provocation because to them it has no right to exist.
I see Russian media is still pushing Putin’s Nazi line. The irony is that it’s Putin’s actions in the past year and beyond that mirror’s Hitler’s Germany.
Support Putin if you wish - at least here you are free to offer your views. | | | |
| The 'special military operation' continues to reach new lows. on 07:57 - Nov 13 with 5303 views | WeWereZombies |
| The 'special military operation' continues to reach new lows. on 04:59 - Nov 13 by TeHuia |
Kia ora e hoa
You perhaps speak of provocation as if there were degrees of it?
Many among us may have had cause to ask themselves how much provocation is enough before we react.
Wisely or unwisely.
I only wish to establish that provocation existed, or it did not.
NgÄ manaakitanga |
You see, ultimately everything on this forum comes back to football. It is said of Neil Warnock that he could start a fight even if he was the only person in the room, could the same be said of Vladimir Putin (or perhaps the Russian military leviathan that sits behind him) ?
Ask yourself, if some desperate and unfortunate situation occurred where Town had but two manager options, Neil Warnock or Putin. For all of his ridiculous provocations I still think most of us would choose Colin.
Above this side issue of who provoked who there is a much more important political imperative, which administration will give Ukrainians the best rights to self determination ? It cannot be ignored that people who are ethnically Russian suffer some disadvantages in Ukraine (as they do in Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania and Moldova) but they also have legitimate pathways to adapt to that nation state and to achieve representation (especially if Ukraine can be given accession status to the European Union and the full scrutiny of human rights watchdogs prevail), could the same be said for ethnic Ukrainians if their country reverted to a Russian puppet state ? |  |
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| The 'special military operation' continues to reach new lows. on 08:08 - Nov 13 with 5295 views | TeHuia |
| The 'special military operation' continues to reach new lows. on 07:57 - Nov 13 by WeWereZombies |
You see, ultimately everything on this forum comes back to football. It is said of Neil Warnock that he could start a fight even if he was the only person in the room, could the same be said of Vladimir Putin (or perhaps the Russian military leviathan that sits behind him) ?
Ask yourself, if some desperate and unfortunate situation occurred where Town had but two manager options, Neil Warnock or Putin. For all of his ridiculous provocations I still think most of us would choose Colin.
Above this side issue of who provoked who there is a much more important political imperative, which administration will give Ukrainians the best rights to self determination ? It cannot be ignored that people who are ethnically Russian suffer some disadvantages in Ukraine (as they do in Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania and Moldova) but they also have legitimate pathways to adapt to that nation state and to achieve representation (especially if Ukraine can be given accession status to the European Union and the full scrutiny of human rights watchdogs prevail), could the same be said for ethnic Ukrainians if their country reverted to a Russian puppet state ? |
Neil Warnock or Putin.
Worth a poll. [Post edited 13 Nov 2022 8:09]
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| The 'special military operation' continues to reach new lows. on 09:14 - Nov 13 with 5250 views | WeWereZombies |
| The 'special military operation' continues to reach new lows. on 08:08 - Nov 13 by TeHuia |
Neil Warnock or Putin.
Worth a poll. [Post edited 13 Nov 2022 8:09]
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It really isn't, it is a simple question of rational proportionality. | |
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