| The 'special military operation' continues to reach new lows. on 08:57 - Jan 7 with 5275 views | Charlie_pl_baxter |
I happen to know a Russian guy who supports Putin. While he would prefer there not to have been a war he sees it as a necessary response by Putin to the West stockpiling weapons in Eastern Europe. In his version of events Putin will take back almost all the former Russian possessions in the next few years. He also says that Russians support Putin because "he had never broken a promise to his people." Thought you might all find it interesting to see what one ordinary Russian guy makes of it all. To be clear these are not my own views. |  |
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| The 'special military operation' continues to reach new lows. on 09:29 - Jan 7 with 5244 views | Churchman |
| The 'special military operation' continues to reach new lows. on 08:57 - Jan 7 by Charlie_pl_baxter |
I happen to know a Russian guy who supports Putin. While he would prefer there not to have been a war he sees it as a necessary response by Putin to the West stockpiling weapons in Eastern Europe. In his version of events Putin will take back almost all the former Russian possessions in the next few years. He also says that Russians support Putin because "he had never broken a promise to his people." Thought you might all find it interesting to see what one ordinary Russian guy makes of it all. To be clear these are not my own views. |
He’s not alone in his views. Putin enjoys massive support at home and abroad. Plenty of non Russians appear to view him as the strong man, admire his ‘honesty’ and believe he is right to fight the Nazis and defend against aggressive Nato.
I guess the question comes down to whether he believes that sovereign countries have the right to exist; the right of self determination or whether they are satellites of mother Russia. Russia was under no threat from anyone. Quite the opposite in fact. The idea that they are threatened by the west has been a nonsense since 1945 and still is - unless it’s a construct to fulfil a stupid old man’s dreams.
However, like all lies, if you keep on saying something, it becomes the truth and everyone believes it. |  | | |
| The 'special military operation' continues to reach new lows. on 12:04 - Jan 7 with 5202 views | ChorleyBoy |
| The 'special military operation' continues to reach new lows. on 07:56 - Jan 7 by Churchman |
Of course Putin broke his own ceasefire. There never was one. It was a good piece of PR presenting himself as a reasonable man; a good ma; areligious man fighting the dark forces of fascism.
It’s winter. This is a time for resupply and limited action while they desperately bring in and train their conscripts. Ceasefire? Just words.
https://www.theguardian.com/world/live/2023/jan/07/russia-ukraine-war-kyiv-accus |
No Biden, speaking for NATO I suppose, rejected the ceasefire.
A ceasefire is generally a mutual agreement, so of course Putin didn't break it. Like you said, there never was one, thanks to Biden.
https://thehill.com/policy/international/3801104-biden-says-putin-looking-for-ox
I think we all want peace - at the very least at Christmas. |  | | |
| The 'special military operation' continues to reach new lows. on 12:22 - Jan 7 with 5170 views | Churchman |
NATO is not conducting the war and nor is Biden. Putin is invading, Zelenski and Ukraine is defending. I still maintain that Putins weasel words were just that, as expressed in the Hill article you posted.
The interesting part of that article is the ‘peace proposals’ in the bottom half of it. There’s Putin arms wide offering negotiation - as long as Ukraine gives Russia what it’s trying to take. The play Erdogan is making is ceasefire then meaningful discussion. Laudable but only achievable if it’s surrender on Putin’s terms.
Peace at any price? You could argue that after 11 months of brutal conflict, it’s the best option to save more killing. Sadly, that just kicks the problem of Putin’s Russia down the road. | | | |
| The 'special military operation' continues to reach new lows. on 22:27 - Jan 9 with 5051 views | Eireannach_gorm |
| The 'special military operation' continues to reach new lows. on 08:57 - Jan 7 by Charlie_pl_baxter |
I happen to know a Russian guy who supports Putin. While he would prefer there not to have been a war he sees it as a necessary response by Putin to the West stockpiling weapons in Eastern Europe. In his version of events Putin will take back almost all the former Russian possessions in the next few years. He also says that Russians support Putin because "he had never broken a promise to his people." Thought you might all find it interesting to see what one ordinary Russian guy makes of it all. To be clear these are not my own views. |
If you believe nonsense like this then Putin is great.
They can't comprehend why they are disliked 
[Post edited 10 Jan 2023 17:42]
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| The 'special military operation' continues to reach new lows. on 23:13 - Jan 9 with 5003 views | Nthsuffolkblue |
| The 'special military operation' continues to reach new lows. on 09:29 - Jan 7 by Churchman |
He’s not alone in his views. Putin enjoys massive support at home and abroad. Plenty of non Russians appear to view him as the strong man, admire his ‘honesty’ and believe he is right to fight the Nazis and defend against aggressive Nato.
I guess the question comes down to whether he believes that sovereign countries have the right to exist; the right of self determination or whether they are satellites of mother Russia. Russia was under no threat from anyone. Quite the opposite in fact. The idea that they are threatened by the west has been a nonsense since 1945 and still is - unless it’s a construct to fulfil a stupid old man’s dreams.
However, like all lies, if you keep on saying something, it becomes the truth and everyone believes it. |
The effect of the war has been to encourage the other threatened countries to hasten towards joining NATO as their best form of defence and for Western countries to arm Ukraine in order to prevent Russia waltzing through it.
In those respects, it appears as if Putin has achieved the exact opposite of his aims. Of course, he will spin it differently but it seems difficult to see how Russia gains anything from the current situation.
My hope is that Putin dies very soon and the new man can blame failure on Putin and withdraw and claim some sort of false victory in something insignificant. It would be good if Russia's allies could put some pressure on them to stop for some reason or other. |  |
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| The 'special military operation' continues to reach new lows. on 23:28 - Jan 9 with 4992 views | Churchman |
| The 'special military operation' continues to reach new lows. on 23:13 - Jan 9 by Nthsuffolkblue |
The effect of the war has been to encourage the other threatened countries to hasten towards joining NATO as their best form of defence and for Western countries to arm Ukraine in order to prevent Russia waltzing through it.
In those respects, it appears as if Putin has achieved the exact opposite of his aims. Of course, he will spin it differently but it seems difficult to see how Russia gains anything from the current situation.
My hope is that Putin dies very soon and the new man can blame failure on Putin and withdraw and claim some sort of false victory in something insignificant. It would be good if Russia's allies could put some pressure on them to stop for some reason or other. |
His assumption of what he thought western countries would do in the face of his strongman approach has proved to be a bad misjudgement - as you point out. His assessment of Ukraine’s capacity and will to resist has also proven very wrong. As has his assessment of Russias capabilities.
Generals and senior people maybe dying mysteriously, but the buck has to stop with little Vlad eventually. How this plays out internally in Russia, who knows. He appears to have been very successful in crushing all internal opposition so there seems little threat to him.
I guess it comes down to Ukraine’s ability to resist and the west not getting tired and board v Russia’s ability to learn and resupply, supported by its Chinese, Iranian, Indian, N Korean best mates.
I hope Putin dies soon too and that Ukraine are able to push them out. The latter is unlikely, but Putins well earned death would change everything. | | | |
| The 'special military operation' continues to reach new lows. on 08:25 - Jan 10 with 4871 views | ChorleyBoy |
| The 'special military operation' continues to reach new lows. on 12:22 - Jan 7 by Churchman |
NATO is not conducting the war and nor is Biden. Putin is invading, Zelenski and Ukraine is defending. I still maintain that Putins weasel words were just that, as expressed in the Hill article you posted.
The interesting part of that article is the ‘peace proposals’ in the bottom half of it. There’s Putin arms wide offering negotiation - as long as Ukraine gives Russia what it’s trying to take. The play Erdogan is making is ceasefire then meaningful discussion. Laudable but only achievable if it’s surrender on Putin’s terms.
Peace at any price? You could argue that after 11 months of brutal conflict, it’s the best option to save more killing. Sadly, that just kicks the problem of Putin’s Russia down the road. |
The Ukrainian Defense Minister sees it a little bit differently and I would argue that he's more in the know on these matters than you and me.
https://english.almayadeen.net/news/politics/ukraine-shedding-blood-to-carry-out | | | |
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| The 'special military operation' continues to reach new lows. on 08:43 - Jan 10 with 4841 views | Churchman |
Jeez, I hope he does!!! If he knows less than a bonehead like me, they’re doomed!
I’m not sure he saying a anything much different to what’s been said on here by those that support Ukraine really. He is rightly doing the politics like everyone else and trying to tie western support in. The west is supplying Ukraine, China N Korea and Iran is supplying Russia. Others like India are supporting Russia by buying its energy. Supplying stuff is not the same as boots on the ground or deploying air assets.
Whatever words he uses doesn’t detract from the fact that had Putin not invaded a sovereign country, there would be no war.
This idea argued by the Russians that Ukraine and or NATO was somehow about to invade is laughable. There’s been no threat to Russia for nearly 80 years. | | | |
| The 'special military operation' continues to reach new lows. on 15:41 - Jan 10 with 4802 views | ChorleyBoy |
| The 'special military operation' continues to reach new lows. on 08:43 - Jan 10 by Churchman |
Jeez, I hope he does!!! If he knows less than a bonehead like me, they’re doomed!
I’m not sure he saying a anything much different to what’s been said on here by those that support Ukraine really. He is rightly doing the politics like everyone else and trying to tie western support in. The west is supplying Ukraine, China N Korea and Iran is supplying Russia. Others like India are supporting Russia by buying its energy. Supplying stuff is not the same as boots on the ground or deploying air assets.
Whatever words he uses doesn’t detract from the fact that had Putin not invaded a sovereign country, there would be no war.
This idea argued by the Russians that Ukraine and or NATO was somehow about to invade is laughable. There’s been no threat to Russia for nearly 80 years. |
"This idea argued by the Russians that Ukraine and or NATO was somehow about to invade is laughable. There’s been no threat to Russia for nearly 80 years."
You seem to have forgotten the Cold War. Was that not a genuine threat for both sides? Or was that all just pantomime?
As an Englishman living in England, even I can appreciate Russian fears. With the fall of the Soviet Union and the dissolution of the Warsaw Pact in 1991, the mere fact of NATO's existence would cause suspicion in Russia. | | | |
| The 'special military operation' continues to reach new lows. on 17:41 - Jan 10 with 4758 views | Eireannach_gorm |
| The 'special military operation' continues to reach new lows. on 15:41 - Jan 10 by ChorleyBoy |
"This idea argued by the Russians that Ukraine and or NATO was somehow about to invade is laughable. There’s been no threat to Russia for nearly 80 years."
You seem to have forgotten the Cold War. Was that not a genuine threat for both sides? Or was that all just pantomime?
As an Englishman living in England, even I can appreciate Russian fears. With the fall of the Soviet Union and the dissolution of the Warsaw Pact in 1991, the mere fact of NATO's existence would cause suspicion in Russia. |
How many casualties were there in the Cold War?
Threat is one thing but to actually invade another country and kill their civilian population is a tad excessive.
Ukraine's existence seems to cause suspicion in Russia.
Russia have no problems with using Belarus as a proxy.
https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/lukashenko-visits-russian-troops-stationed- | | | |
| The 'special military operation' continues to reach new lows. on 20:31 - Jan 10 with 4653 views | Churchman |
| The 'special military operation' continues to reach new lows. on 15:41 - Jan 10 by ChorleyBoy |
"This idea argued by the Russians that Ukraine and or NATO was somehow about to invade is laughable. There’s been no threat to Russia for nearly 80 years."
You seem to have forgotten the Cold War. Was that not a genuine threat for both sides? Or was that all just pantomime?
As an Englishman living in England, even I can appreciate Russian fears. With the fall of the Soviet Union and the dissolution of the Warsaw Pact in 1991, the mere fact of NATO's existence would cause suspicion in Russia. |
No, I’ve not forgotten the Cold War. I remember it rather well. There was no equivalence, no mutual threat or anything like it with one exception. Nuclear weapons.
Conventionally the Eastern Bloc were never as efficient or effective as was feared at the time, but their capability by weight of numbers, putting it crudely, far exceeded NATO’s. The very make up of western conventional forces tells its own story. Western Europe capability was defensive and measured in days before the worst would have to have been considered.
If that was a pantomime, it was a very serious one. There was no cause for suspicion about Nato intent whatsoever, unless you wished to use it for your own ends. Rebuilding the Eastern Bloc maybe? | | | |
| The 'special military operation' continues to reach new lows. on 23:32 - Jan 10 with 4569 views | bluejacko |
| The 'special military operation' continues to reach new lows. on 15:41 - Jan 10 by ChorleyBoy |
"This idea argued by the Russians that Ukraine and or NATO was somehow about to invade is laughable. There’s been no threat to Russia for nearly 80 years."
You seem to have forgotten the Cold War. Was that not a genuine threat for both sides? Or was that all just pantomime?
As an Englishman living in England, even I can appreciate Russian fears. With the fall of the Soviet Union and the dissolution of the Warsaw Pact in 1991, the mere fact of NATO's existence would cause suspicion in Russia. |
I served during the Cold War in BAOR and our posture was purely defensive! In fact our life expectancy was 72hrs to slow the Orcs to allow Germany to be reinforced before nuclear weapons were used.
When the wall came down ALL western nations scaled down their defence spending so to say NATO were a threat to Russia is a load of nonsense! In Europe NATO is and always has been a defensive organisation hence why the Baltic states and now Sweden and Finland wish to join. If Pootin hadn’t invaded Ukraine they would not even have considered applying for membership. |  | | |
| The 'special military operation' continues to reach new lows. on 07:16 - Jan 11 with 4458 views | ChorleyBoy |
| The 'special military operation' continues to reach new lows. on 23:32 - Jan 10 by bluejacko |
I served during the Cold War in BAOR and our posture was purely defensive! In fact our life expectancy was 72hrs to slow the Orcs to allow Germany to be reinforced before nuclear weapons were used.
When the wall came down ALL western nations scaled down their defence spending so to say NATO were a threat to Russia is a load of nonsense! In Europe NATO is and always has been a defensive organisation hence why the Baltic states and now Sweden and Finland wish to join. If Pootin hadn’t invaded Ukraine they would not even have considered applying for membership. |
I'm not sure how you would describe NATO's role in Yugoslavia in 1999 defensive or even in Libya in 2011. Unless of course you want to redefine defensive. | | | |
| The 'special military operation' continues to reach new lows. on 09:08 - Jan 11 with 4388 views | Churchman |
| The 'special military operation' continues to reach new lows. on 07:16 - Jan 11 by ChorleyBoy |
I'm not sure how you would describe NATO's role in Yugoslavia in 1999 defensive or even in Libya in 2011. Unless of course you want to redefine defensive. |
Neither in Libya or Yugo was the action designed to invade or steal territory. Whether either action was right is a matter of debate, but it doesn’t change the essential point that NATO is defensive in it’s conception and objectives.
As Jacko and I have indicated, there was no way it offered any threat to Russia whatsoever during the Cold War or since. There was no equivalence as you imply..
There is no way Nato offered any threat to Russia a year ago either. Again, it’s not designed to do that or capable of doing it either. Putin’s propaganda will say otherwise and people will believe it but that doesn’t make him right. | | | |
| The 'special military operation' continues to reach new lows. on 09:11 - Jan 11 with 4384 views | bluejacko |
| The 'special military operation' continues to reach new lows. on 07:16 - Jan 11 by ChorleyBoy |
I'm not sure how you would describe NATO's role in Yugoslavia in 1999 defensive or even in Libya in 2011. Unless of course you want to redefine defensive. |
Did NATO forces put themselves in the middle of a civil war to prevent genocide or not then?
So how many lives did they save by doing so and did they stay and try to occupy those countries as Pootin is trying in Ukraine? I think not! How many boots were on the ground in Libya?
https://ukdefencejournal.org.uk/nato-mission-dismantles-last-barricades-in-kosov [Post edited 11 Jan 2023 10:28]
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| The 'special military operation' continues to reach new lows. on 10:49 - Jan 11 with 4343 views | ChorleyBoy |
| The 'special military operation' continues to reach new lows. on 09:11 - Jan 11 by bluejacko |
Did NATO forces put themselves in the middle of a civil war to prevent genocide or not then?
So how many lives did they save by doing so and did they stay and try to occupy those countries as Pootin is trying in Ukraine? I think not! How many boots were on the ground in Libya?
https://ukdefencejournal.org.uk/nato-mission-dismantles-last-barricades-in-kosov [Post edited 11 Jan 2023 10:28]
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As I anticipated, you have refined "defensive". | | | |
| The 'special military operation' continues to reach new lows. on 12:36 - Jan 11 with 4291 views | bluejacko |
| The 'special military operation' continues to reach new lows. on 10:49 - Jan 11 by ChorleyBoy |
As I anticipated, you have refined "defensive". |
Nope in the European theatre of operations it is defensive! If you can’t see the difference of what happened in the former Yugoslavia that’s up to you.
You might well have noticed it morphed into a UN task! against them as well? [Post edited 11 Jan 2023 12:41]
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| The 'special military operation' continues to reach new lows. on 12:52 - Jan 11 with 4265 views | StokieBlue |
| The 'special military operation' continues to reach new lows. on 15:41 - Jan 10 by ChorleyBoy |
"This idea argued by the Russians that Ukraine and or NATO was somehow about to invade is laughable. There’s been no threat to Russia for nearly 80 years."
You seem to have forgotten the Cold War. Was that not a genuine threat for both sides? Or was that all just pantomime?
As an Englishman living in England, even I can appreciate Russian fears. With the fall of the Soviet Union and the dissolution of the Warsaw Pact in 1991, the mere fact of NATO's existence would cause suspicion in Russia. |
There was no real thread of invasion during the cold war. Given the size of the armies involved any land based invasion to hold territory would be impossible.
All the worry was around nuclear war, not invasions.
If you're an "Englishman living in England" how can you have such insights into Russian fears? One would have to be immersed in the culture for a period of time to get a real feel for the understanding you are claiming.
I'm not surprised to see you back in this thread and still acting as an apologist for Russia though.
SB |  |
| Avatar - IC410 - Tadpoles Nebula |
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| The 'special military operation' continues to reach new lows. on 20:19 - Jan 11 with 4133 views | Nthsuffolkblue |
| The 'special military operation' continues to reach new lows. on 12:52 - Jan 11 by StokieBlue |
There was no real thread of invasion during the cold war. Given the size of the armies involved any land based invasion to hold territory would be impossible.
All the worry was around nuclear war, not invasions.
If you're an "Englishman living in England" how can you have such insights into Russian fears? One would have to be immersed in the culture for a period of time to get a real feel for the understanding you are claiming.
I'm not surprised to see you back in this thread and still acting as an apologist for Russia though.
SB |
https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/world/margaret-thatcher-s-chilling-warning-about- | |
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| The 'special military operation' continues to reach new lows. on 20:26 - Jan 11 with 4127 views | ChorleyBoy |
| The 'special military operation' continues to reach new lows. on 12:52 - Jan 11 by StokieBlue |
There was no real thread of invasion during the cold war. Given the size of the armies involved any land based invasion to hold territory would be impossible.
All the worry was around nuclear war, not invasions.
If you're an "Englishman living in England" how can you have such insights into Russian fears? One would have to be immersed in the culture for a period of time to get a real feel for the understanding you are claiming.
I'm not surprised to see you back in this thread and still acting as an apologist for Russia though.
SB |
"There was no real thread of invasion during the cold war."
"All the worry was around nuclear war, not invasions."
LOL. How silly of me to suggest there was no reasonable threat of invasion. That's right, shame on me for exaggerating. There was ONLY worry of a nuclear war!. So that's okay then. Are you for real?
I apologise for exaggerating the threat. LOL.
And FFS, how dare you call me an apologist for anyone. I will not tolerate your efforts to misrepresent me through libel or slander. Kindly pipe down a bit, please. I actually prefer to base my search for thetruth based on the evidence at my disposal and form my opinions on that rather than follow any partisan or nationalistic rhetoric. I will continue to do that while I still live in a free country.
"Insights into Russian fears" - What? | | | |
| The 'special military operation' continues to reach new lows. on 23:52 - Jan 11 with 4041 views | Churchman |
I see Russia’s commander in Ukraine Gen Surovikin has been replaced. If I was him I’d make sure the window locks are on and steer clear of pills, syringes, food you name it. | | | |
| The 'special military operation' continues to reach new lows. on 06:31 - Jan 12 with 4003 views | ChorleyBoy |
| The 'special military operation' continues to reach new lows. on 23:52 - Jan 11 by Churchman |
I see Russia’s commander in Ukraine Gen Surovikin has been replaced. If I was him I’d make sure the window locks are on and steer clear of pills, syringes, food you name it. |
I hadn't seen that but you're right. The fact that it's Russia's current chief of General Staff who is now in the position suggests that something big is probably going to happen. Not sure I get your comment about window locks and syringes though. | | | |
| The 'special military operation' continues to reach new lows. on 07:34 - Jan 12 with 3994 views | StokieBlue |
| The 'special military operation' continues to reach new lows. on 20:26 - Jan 11 by ChorleyBoy |
"There was no real thread of invasion during the cold war."
"All the worry was around nuclear war, not invasions."
LOL. How silly of me to suggest there was no reasonable threat of invasion. That's right, shame on me for exaggerating. There was ONLY worry of a nuclear war!. So that's okay then. Are you for real?
I apologise for exaggerating the threat. LOL.
And FFS, how dare you call me an apologist for anyone. I will not tolerate your efforts to misrepresent me through libel or slander. Kindly pipe down a bit, please. I actually prefer to base my search for thetruth based on the evidence at my disposal and form my opinions on that rather than follow any partisan or nationalistic rhetoric. I will continue to do that while I still live in a free country.
"Insights into Russian fears" - What? |
You are a Russian apologist.
You've posted multiple times in this long thread and virtually all of them are "but both sides" nonsense trying to excuse Russian actions or blame NATO even when it's been pointed out how blaming them is falling for Russian propaganda.
It's not misrepresentation, libel or slander, I could link all the posts here easily enough. To claim it's based on evidence is ridiculous, much like some of your other posting.
This faux outrage is pathetic, own your opinions and if you think it's misrepresentation then take it up with Phil. If anything, calling it misrepresentation is slandering me.
SB | |
| Avatar - IC410 - Tadpoles Nebula |
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