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Russian soldiers sent Olga Novikova, founder/director of Mariupol film festival video with her captured son demanding to pay 5000 Euro ransom for his life. If not they promised to send video of his execution. links in comments. pic.twitter.com/VBtauH45IZ
Two charming little actresses, Elizabeth and Sonya, of the city theatre of Mariupol. They both performed the role of Lucy in "The Chronicles of Narnia: The Lion, the Witch and the Wardrobe".
The 'special military operation' continues to reach new lows. on 22:18 - Feb 6 by Eireannach_gorm
This is not good.
A new large-scale offensive by the Russian invaders will begin within the next 10 days, before Ukraine receives new supplies of weapons.https://t.co/GKpIxidtl6
The German tanks have to be built / refurbished and the American long range missiles will arrive by the end of the year.
Thankfully the UK and the rest of Europe have a bit more urgency with the supply of weapons.
It is a horrible situation but it is coming at massive cost to Russia and even if they gain occupation, that cost will continue. I am still hoping that Putin's death comes soon and brings an opportunity for someone else to wash their hands of the disaster and blame it on Putin and find a peaceful settlement. I guess a lot of that depends upon the continued appetite for war among those surrounding Putin and influencing who succeeds him.
The 'special military operation' continues to reach new lows. on 22:25 - Feb 6 by Nthsuffolkblue
It is a horrible situation but it is coming at massive cost to Russia and even if they gain occupation, that cost will continue. I am still hoping that Putin's death comes soon and brings an opportunity for someone else to wash their hands of the disaster and blame it on Putin and find a peaceful settlement. I guess a lot of that depends upon the continued appetite for war among those surrounding Putin and influencing who succeeds him.
I agree, but there is a question around cost. There is no cost to Putin in terms of human life. He cares not a jot about that. Not interested. People, misery, war crimes don’t matter to that animal.
Material cost? They’re getting around sanctions and growth this year will exceed the U.K, money from energy is rolling in to upgrade his military.
The true cost is political. Russia always was junior partner to China and it’s getting more junior by the minute. The little madman won’t like that. As you rightly point out, a lot will depend on who follows Putin and their appetite for this disaster.
However, Putin looks as fit as hell for a 70 year old and I suspect has many more years in him - unless he falls out of a window, eats a funny oyster or accidentally shoots himself. Here’s hoping.
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The 'special military operation' continues to reach new lows. on 22:57 - Feb 7 with 5539 views
Both Darya & Ihar Losik are held as political prisoners in Belarus. Ihar was sentenced to 15 years, Darya to 2 years for supporting her husband. They can't communicate - Ihar wrote 15 letters to his wife, but she didn't receive any of them. This inhuman treatment has to stop. pic.twitter.com/1nnD5i4O7a
We must continue to support Belarus philosopher & political prisoner Uladzimir Matskevich. Under the new conditions of detention, he is held isolated in a prison-type cell in the penal colony. Last year, he went on a hunger strike to protest & was later sentenced to five years. pic.twitter.com/nNMStgJ6Qi
We can't believe the regime's lies when they are trying to convince people that it is safe to come back from exile. Belarusian Anatol Puhach was jailed after returning from Poland for a medical exam. He has cancer but was denied the request to change from prison to house arrest. pic.twitter.com/7UF9awpM2k
🇺🇦ðŸ¤ðŸ‡¹ðŸ‡·Ukraine is sending a search and rescue team to Turkey — 77 rescuers will be delivered by An-32 and An-26 aircraft. They will help eliminate the consequences of an earthquake. pic.twitter.com/4Cpvdn5koi
Yes there is a big issue with the delay in the supply of promised military equipment to Ukraine. They only way they can overcome superior Russian manpower is to have superior equipment.
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The 'special military operation' continues to reach new lows. on 14:33 - Feb 8 with 5164 views
The village of Oskil, Kharkiv region, was under Russian occupation for 6 months. It was very dangerous for kids, especially young girls to leave their homes. pic.twitter.com/KT5qjllWiS
I had a really good evening catching up with former work chums. Beer, more beer, laughter and beer.
I got home and with the sound off saw an article on BBC on a girl in I think Bakhmut. She was playing then clambered into her sleeping bag. Why does she have to live like that? Awful. Nobody deserves it. Nobody.
All inflicted with a sorry little creature who has to be got rid of. The sooner the better.
The 'special military operation' continues to reach new lows. on 14:33 - Feb 8 by Eireannach_gorm
The village of Oskil, Kharkiv region, was under Russian occupation for 6 months. It was very dangerous for kids, especially young girls to leave their homes. pic.twitter.com/KT5qjllWiS
And maybe someone can point this out to the odious inflated gutbucket who is demanding planes and more tanks be sent.
Perhaps fatso has forgotten how, not long back he derided tanks.
"Boris Johnson wanted to get rid of the British army tanks now being sent to Ukraine a year before the war started because he believed they had outlived their usefulness on the battlefield"
It is well worth a watch to see how this incompetent shyster stumbles through, trying to avoid the fact that he cut the number if tanks, aircraft and other arms after cutting the numbers he had previously promised.
The 'special military operation' continues to reach new lows. on 12:59 - Feb 8 by Eireannach_gorm
Yes there is a big issue with the delay in the supply of promised military equipment to Ukraine. They only way they can overcome superior Russian manpower is to have superior equipment.
I've been avidly following the news snippets posted by various people to this thread for nearly a year now and we now seem to entering a completely new situation. Now it appears the Russians are going to make shock gains in Ukraine despite the fact that we've been told the Russians' antiquated weapons have been in short supply and wave upon wave of unwilling and untrained Russian reservists have been falling on the front line to a superior and Ukraine army. Well, the news isn't a shock to me at all, but I guess that's because I have also been accessing news sources which have proved to be far more reliable.
There are few better qualified than Colonel MacGregor and he's been spot on with everything he's said to date. Here's one of his latest:
Check out what he says at 23:50 about the Abrams m1 series tanks and then his comments to the end of the video.
If we continue to arm the Ukrainians with more weapons as you appear to be wanting, we are just increasing the number of dead Ukrainians and that sickens me as much as the war itself.
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The 'special military operation' continues to reach new lows. on 07:44 - Feb 9 with 4902 views
The 'special military operation' continues to reach new lows. on 23:53 - Feb 8 by ChorleyBoy
I've been avidly following the news snippets posted by various people to this thread for nearly a year now and we now seem to entering a completely new situation. Now it appears the Russians are going to make shock gains in Ukraine despite the fact that we've been told the Russians' antiquated weapons have been in short supply and wave upon wave of unwilling and untrained Russian reservists have been falling on the front line to a superior and Ukraine army. Well, the news isn't a shock to me at all, but I guess that's because I have also been accessing news sources which have proved to be far more reliable.
There are few better qualified than Colonel MacGregor and he's been spot on with everything he's said to date. Here's one of his latest:
Check out what he says at 23:50 about the Abrams m1 series tanks and then his comments to the end of the video.
If we continue to arm the Ukrainians with more weapons as you appear to be wanting, we are just increasing the number of dead Ukrainians and that sickens me as much as the war itself.
I don’t know what you’ve been reading, but it clearly isn’t this message board or thread. It’s actually been largely balanced, with the exception of one or two apologists/supporters of Putin like yourself.
There is no neutrality in this, no even handed approach and no good solutions. Putin has seen to that. Biden and the west’s fear of Russia and what it might do has been as obvious as night follows day. I actually think that the only thing to fear is that Russia takes what it wants in Ukraine which it might well do. It won’t stop there. You have advocated this dressed up with concern for human life. Yet the one person you tend not to condemn or wish to see dealt with is the one who caused all this.
You also imply that war sickens you yet doesn’t everyone else on here. You are wrong. But appeasement is never a solution. It always makes things worse.
I’ve said many times that a no fly zone should have been implemented from invasion day minus one. I would also have protected Ukraine’s sea boundaries and commercial shipping. If imposed the day before invasion, what could the animal have done? I doubt Putin would have dared invade and if he had, he wouldn’t have been able to move.
As it goes, despite amazing resistance by Ukraine, I’ve always thought Putin would get what he wants. But he still had to be resisted and will need to be when he decides who will be next. Just be grateful you are not living in the Baltic States, Moldova or Poland.
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The 'special military operation' continues to reach new lows. on 08:25 - Feb 9 with 4860 views
The 'special military operation' continues to reach new lows. on 07:44 - Feb 9 by Churchman
I don’t know what you’ve been reading, but it clearly isn’t this message board or thread. It’s actually been largely balanced, with the exception of one or two apologists/supporters of Putin like yourself.
There is no neutrality in this, no even handed approach and no good solutions. Putin has seen to that. Biden and the west’s fear of Russia and what it might do has been as obvious as night follows day. I actually think that the only thing to fear is that Russia takes what it wants in Ukraine which it might well do. It won’t stop there. You have advocated this dressed up with concern for human life. Yet the one person you tend not to condemn or wish to see dealt with is the one who caused all this.
You also imply that war sickens you yet doesn’t everyone else on here. You are wrong. But appeasement is never a solution. It always makes things worse.
I’ve said many times that a no fly zone should have been implemented from invasion day minus one. I would also have protected Ukraine’s sea boundaries and commercial shipping. If imposed the day before invasion, what could the animal have done? I doubt Putin would have dared invade and if he had, he wouldn’t have been able to move.
As it goes, despite amazing resistance by Ukraine, I’ve always thought Putin would get what he wants. But he still had to be resisted and will need to be when he decides who will be next. Just be grateful you are not living in the Baltic States, Moldova or Poland.
I don't know why, but I have greater trust in what an ex-colonel of the US military and former advisor to the president about the events in Ukraine than tweets and news stories in English from Ukrainian twitter accounts and pro Ukrainian /anti Russian news sources.
Col. MacGregor is a hugely respected figure - he is not pro Russian in the slightest.
Your efforts to tar me as an apologist are a little desperate. Perhaps you should watch the video and be more specific about what you disagree with rather than just brand any reporting contrary to the Ukrainian government narrative as Putin apology or disinformation.
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The 'special military operation' continues to reach new lows. on 09:28 - Feb 9 with 4832 views
The 'special military operation' continues to reach new lows. on 08:25 - Feb 9 by ChorleyBoy
I don't know why, but I have greater trust in what an ex-colonel of the US military and former advisor to the president about the events in Ukraine than tweets and news stories in English from Ukrainian twitter accounts and pro Ukrainian /anti Russian news sources.
Col. MacGregor is a hugely respected figure - he is not pro Russian in the slightest.
Your efforts to tar me as an apologist are a little desperate. Perhaps you should watch the video and be more specific about what you disagree with rather than just brand any reporting contrary to the Ukrainian government narrative as Putin apology or disinformation.
Thanks for the video - for some reason, I just watched it all and it was nothing if not interesting. No idea on the guys credentials, but I think it is clear who he blames for this war (the globalist west) and the last couple of mins are reveling 'Putin didn't want to fight this war', 'he pleaded with the west', 'millions of Ukrainians will die...
His prediction of impending and quick catastrophic loss for the 'gangster'Ukrainian regime is ballsy - who knows, he may even be right.
Edit: I forgot to mention two other things of note:
1. His characterisation of Putins initiial attack was quirky at best: he made it almost sound like a gentle prod, gracefully removed, instead of a vicious and unsuccessful attempted blitzkrieg.
2. His fears over South Korean and Japanese designs on Eastern siberia... the first I've ever heard of it. Could be true I spose, but seems a little unlikely.
[Post edited 9 Feb 2023 9:36]
Has anyone ever looked at their own postings for last day or so? Oh my... so sorry. Was Ullaa
The 'special military operation' continues to reach new lows. on 09:28 - Feb 9 by giant_stow
Thanks for the video - for some reason, I just watched it all and it was nothing if not interesting. No idea on the guys credentials, but I think it is clear who he blames for this war (the globalist west) and the last couple of mins are reveling 'Putin didn't want to fight this war', 'he pleaded with the west', 'millions of Ukrainians will die...
His prediction of impending and quick catastrophic loss for the 'gangster'Ukrainian regime is ballsy - who knows, he may even be right.
Edit: I forgot to mention two other things of note:
1. His characterisation of Putins initiial attack was quirky at best: he made it almost sound like a gentle prod, gracefully removed, instead of a vicious and unsuccessful attempted blitzkrieg.
2. His fears over South Korean and Japanese designs on Eastern siberia... the first I've ever heard of it. Could be true I spose, but seems a little unlikely.
[Post edited 9 Feb 2023 9:36]
Much of what he says is clearly counter to what we all hear on the news, that's for sure.
I find it interesting to listen to him, because his analysis of military manoeuvres is different to the main narrative and he has unquestionable expertise in this area. That he expressed a rather gloomy future for Ukraine from the beginning appears to be vindicated by the Telegraph article you linked earlier. Like I said, the current situation is only "shocking" to those who have only followed the main narrative.
Let's see how things pan out and hope and pray for an end to this horror as soon as possible.
[Post edited 9 Feb 2023 10:09]
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The 'special military operation' continues to reach new lows. on 10:39 - Feb 9 with 4783 views
The 'special military operation' continues to reach new lows. on 10:07 - Feb 9 by ChorleyBoy
Much of what he says is clearly counter to what we all hear on the news, that's for sure.
I find it interesting to listen to him, because his analysis of military manoeuvres is different to the main narrative and he has unquestionable expertise in this area. That he expressed a rather gloomy future for Ukraine from the beginning appears to be vindicated by the Telegraph article you linked earlier. Like I said, the current situation is only "shocking" to those who have only followed the main narrative.
Let's see how things pan out and hope and pray for an end to this horror as soon as possible.
[Post edited 9 Feb 2023 10:09]
You're right in that its good to hear views which aren't so often expressed. I think he does go much further than the Telegraph article though - he's basically predicting Ukraine will collapse as a society and functioning state within weeks.
Anyway, all any of us lay people can do is digest and evaluate the sources we come across and hope for the best.
Has anyone ever looked at their own postings for last day or so? Oh my... so sorry. Was Ullaa
The 'special military operation' continues to reach new lows. on 10:07 - Feb 9 by ChorleyBoy
Much of what he says is clearly counter to what we all hear on the news, that's for sure.
I find it interesting to listen to him, because his analysis of military manoeuvres is different to the main narrative and he has unquestionable expertise in this area. That he expressed a rather gloomy future for Ukraine from the beginning appears to be vindicated by the Telegraph article you linked earlier. Like I said, the current situation is only "shocking" to those who have only followed the main narrative.
Let's see how things pan out and hope and pray for an end to this horror as soon as possible.
[Post edited 9 Feb 2023 10:09]
A lot of people have military expertise, but it doesn’t make them right. How many experts predicted Ukraine would resist for a year? Probably about the same number that predicted an easy Russian victory over Finland in the Winter War.
Lord Gort was an expert in 1940. He was a very brave man and a holder of the Victoria Cross. Yet in charge of the BEF he didn’t have a clue. Not the foggiest.
As for ascribing shocking to those who only follow the main narrative, you are wrong. I doubt anyone who posts on here restricted their sources to the Mail, Telegraph or current bun.
What is shocking is that a man or group of men consider it their right to inflict misery upon a sovereign nation. And there are people out there who are quite happy for Putin to take what he wants in the name of peace. I find that shocking.
It implies the people of Ukraine are not entitled to their country, to their freedom. Lesser mortals. Russia lite. In 1917, Finland was part of Russia. So that entitles Putin to take that does it? Poland - part of the eastern bloc, so in you go Vlad. When do the apologists say enough? Presumably when the Wagner Group are at their front door.
This festering narrative that somehow it’s all the wests fault is as ridiculous as Germany claiming they were forced into war by Poland.
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The 'special military operation' continues to reach new lows. on 12:24 - Feb 9 with 4700 views
The 'special military operation' continues to reach new lows. on 11:28 - Feb 9 by Churchman
A lot of people have military expertise, but it doesn’t make them right. How many experts predicted Ukraine would resist for a year? Probably about the same number that predicted an easy Russian victory over Finland in the Winter War.
Lord Gort was an expert in 1940. He was a very brave man and a holder of the Victoria Cross. Yet in charge of the BEF he didn’t have a clue. Not the foggiest.
As for ascribing shocking to those who only follow the main narrative, you are wrong. I doubt anyone who posts on here restricted their sources to the Mail, Telegraph or current bun.
What is shocking is that a man or group of men consider it their right to inflict misery upon a sovereign nation. And there are people out there who are quite happy for Putin to take what he wants in the name of peace. I find that shocking.
It implies the people of Ukraine are not entitled to their country, to their freedom. Lesser mortals. Russia lite. In 1917, Finland was part of Russia. So that entitles Putin to take that does it? Poland - part of the eastern bloc, so in you go Vlad. When do the apologists say enough? Presumably when the Wagner Group are at their front door.
This festering narrative that somehow it’s all the wests fault is as ridiculous as Germany claiming they were forced into war by Poland.
Mainstream media is on the whole pretty poor* in following the action on the front. It is better on the geopolitical stage of countries negotiating supplies, etc... but reporting events on the ground is slow and doesn't often give great context until everything has been disseminated 1000 times more via social media. There are also lots of simplifications that can be irksome, but can make sense when giving overviews. Prime example being that anything that looks remotely armoured, has tracks and has a gun is a tank. Fundamentally wrong, but to much of the general public is close enough as they aren't interested in distinctions between IFVs, MBTs, SPG, SPAA, etc...
I do get a lot of info from social media. While this war isn't the first fought in the age of social media, the amount of frontline content from not just civilians but soldiers and official accounts is something else and part of a wider information war. However everything needs to be taken with a punch of salt until you get verified information or confirmation from othe parties. Some accounts very liberally post whatever info they get, while some take greater care. It's tempting to run with the first info rather than the best info.
It's useful to categorise what receive and mentally score information. Trustworthiness of the source, multiple independent sources corroborating it, plausibility, hard evidence such as video or photos. It's why a few people on here were talking about the Kharkiv advance last year long before it ever hit the BBC. There is still potential for mistakes and errors, but you get a more detailed picture and mor eup to date.
Ps. This is less a reply to you Churchman and more a general point about sources.
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The 'special military operation' continues to reach new lows. on 14:00 - Feb 9 with 4630 views
Anyone think it was slightly incongruous for yesterday's press conference to be held in front of a tank?
I know we are supplying tanks, and they were visiting an army base, but surely people know what a tank looks like?
Of course, if it was Zelensky's idea, or he was happy to go along with it, I don't suppose it really matters.
But I do get the sneaking feeling that both Johnson and Sunak have in part, or at times, used the conflict to boost their brand or take attention aware from difficulties. And we mustn't forget brand Sunak's obsession with posed photos and the like.
EDIT: I suppose the incongruity yesterday was Sunak in his attempt at smart casual. Zelensky is at war, and always dresses in military fatigues. Still, I suppose better that Sunak wasn't similarly attired, but maybe he's saving that up for later in the war.
[Post edited 9 Feb 2023 14:57]
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The 'special military operation' continues to reach new lows. on 14:49 - Feb 9 with 4583 views
The 'special military operation' continues to reach new lows. on 12:24 - Feb 9 by Kievthegreat
Mainstream media is on the whole pretty poor* in following the action on the front. It is better on the geopolitical stage of countries negotiating supplies, etc... but reporting events on the ground is slow and doesn't often give great context until everything has been disseminated 1000 times more via social media. There are also lots of simplifications that can be irksome, but can make sense when giving overviews. Prime example being that anything that looks remotely armoured, has tracks and has a gun is a tank. Fundamentally wrong, but to much of the general public is close enough as they aren't interested in distinctions between IFVs, MBTs, SPG, SPAA, etc...
I do get a lot of info from social media. While this war isn't the first fought in the age of social media, the amount of frontline content from not just civilians but soldiers and official accounts is something else and part of a wider information war. However everything needs to be taken with a punch of salt until you get verified information or confirmation from othe parties. Some accounts very liberally post whatever info they get, while some take greater care. It's tempting to run with the first info rather than the best info.
It's useful to categorise what receive and mentally score information. Trustworthiness of the source, multiple independent sources corroborating it, plausibility, hard evidence such as video or photos. It's why a few people on here were talking about the Kharkiv advance last year long before it ever hit the BBC. There is still potential for mistakes and errors, but you get a more detailed picture and mor eup to date.
Ps. This is less a reply to you Churchman and more a general point about sources.
I agree. I have all volumes of The War Illustrated from WW1 and WW2. The pictures are interesting but the content is mostly propaganda. It is what it is. Written for a purpose, based on often scant information, helped by a lack of information. The BBC in WW2 was listened to across Europe because the German media was so inaccurate - but the BBCs coverage was still controlled and for a purpose. I don’t think much has changed.
We do have a lot of lazy journalism now and you are right, it plays to a public that’s easily bored and not particularly interested in detail. Look how much focus there has been on Putin’s health. Wishful thinking given if media was to be believed he’d be dead by now rather than playing ice hockey.
We of course luckily get to see Putin’s propaganda at work through his tv networks and that is very much at odds with western media. Most people in Russia and plenty outside it believe it without question.
The truth of the events of the last year will take some time to emerge, if ever. However, one thing is for certain. Putin has sought to swallow a country and it looks like he will continue to try.
[Post edited 9 Feb 2023 19:07]
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The 'special military operation' continues to reach new lows. on 15:31 - Feb 9 with 4528 views
The 'special military operation' continues to reach new lows. on 14:51 - Feb 9 by Churchman
I agree. I have all volumes of The War Illustrated from WW1 and WW2. The pictures are interesting but the content is mostly propaganda. It is what it is. Written for a purpose, based on often scant information, helped by a lack of information. The BBC in WW2 was listened to across Europe because the German media was so inaccurate - but the BBCs coverage was still controlled and for a purpose. I don’t think much has changed.
We do have a lot of lazy journalism now and you are right, it plays to a public that’s easily bored and not particularly interested in detail. Look how much focus there has been on Putin’s health. Wishful thinking given if media was to be believed he’d be dead by now rather than playing ice hockey.
We of course luckily get to see Putin’s propaganda at work through his tv networks and that is very much at odds with western media. Most people in Russia and plenty outside it believe it without question.
The truth of the events of the last year will take some time to emerge, if ever. However, one thing is for certain. Putin has sought to swallow a country and it looks like he will continue to try.
[Post edited 9 Feb 2023 19:07]
On the propaganda front, I think the issue I have is that any view that isn't total victory for Ukraine has been effectively silenced in this country.
Take, for example, PMQs yesterday. Both Sunak and Starmer pledged their support for the victory of Ukraine, which I took to mean the expulsion of Russia from Ukraine.
The question I have is whether this is an achievable result.
In my view, Ukraine has done exceptionally well to limit Russian advances, and even regain land, and it would seem to me an incredible achievement even to restore the borders to what they were immediately before the invasion.
I am no expert but I think it would be very difficult to expel Russia from Crimea. Russia, and probably the people of Crimea, would presumably fight to the end to defend it, and the only way I could see it being taken back would be for it to be razed to the ground, with presumably thousands and thousands of casualties. It also strikes me that in such circumstance Putin could revert to very desperate measures.
In the light of all this, I wonder if, say, the recapture of Crimea is a sensible or feasible war aim at least from a Western point of view.
Of course, it could be that Western countries realise there are limits to what can be achieved, but are not going to spell this out in public. Or the weapons etc promised are designed to prevent Russia making further advances. But I do think there is a danger of the West going too far, with unknown consequences, partly because of pre-Ukraine war failings, partly because of peer country pressure and, maybe in the UK, partly to boost Johnson or Sunak. I also sense there are people in Germany and the Pentagon, at least, who share this concern.
In this connection, it is interesting to note that there has been a rowing back today on slightly gung ho suggestions yesterday that the UK will provide fighter jets.
I would just conclude by saying that the only good thing to emerge from the war in Ukraine is that it appears to have proved that Russia does not have the capacity to invade any NATO or prospective NATO country, given that after nearly a year its gains have been so minimal in a country which is not even a NATO member.
[Post edited 9 Feb 2023 15:38]
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The 'special military operation' continues to reach new lows. on 16:32 - Feb 9 with 4498 views
The 'special military operation' continues to reach new lows. on 14:00 - Feb 9 by DJR
Anyone think it was slightly incongruous for yesterday's press conference to be held in front of a tank?
I know we are supplying tanks, and they were visiting an army base, but surely people know what a tank looks like?
Of course, if it was Zelensky's idea, or he was happy to go along with it, I don't suppose it really matters.
But I do get the sneaking feeling that both Johnson and Sunak have in part, or at times, used the conflict to boost their brand or take attention aware from difficulties. And we mustn't forget brand Sunak's obsession with posed photos and the like.
EDIT: I suppose the incongruity yesterday was Sunak in his attempt at smart casual. Zelensky is at war, and always dresses in military fatigues. Still, I suppose better that Sunak wasn't similarly attired, but maybe he's saving that up for later in the war.
[Post edited 9 Feb 2023 14:57]
Do people know what a tank actually looks like? Most people would consider all these vehicles tanks, but none of them are. You'd need to add the top 2 (or 3 in the case of a theatre ready Challenger 2) to equal the same weight. Plus they offer nowhere near the same levels of firepower/protection and fulfil completely separate roles.
An actual tank:
PS. I was about to post the jokey "tank alignment chart", but felt a bit too niche.
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The 'special military operation' continues to reach new lows. on 16:38 - Feb 9 with 4479 views
The 'special military operation' continues to reach new lows. on 16:32 - Feb 9 by Kievthegreat
Do people know what a tank actually looks like? Most people would consider all these vehicles tanks, but none of them are. You'd need to add the top 2 (or 3 in the case of a theatre ready Challenger 2) to equal the same weight. Plus they offer nowhere near the same levels of firepower/protection and fulfil completely separate roles.
An actual tank:
PS. I was about to post the jokey "tank alignment chart", but felt a bit too niche.
Actually, I had seen your previous post about the confusion about what constitutes a tank, but that would have spoiled the ?joke? in my post.
[Post edited 9 Feb 2023 16:40]
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The 'special military operation' continues to reach new lows. on 16:48 - Feb 9 with 4453 views
The 'special military operation' continues to reach new lows. on 15:31 - Feb 9 by DJR
On the propaganda front, I think the issue I have is that any view that isn't total victory for Ukraine has been effectively silenced in this country.
Take, for example, PMQs yesterday. Both Sunak and Starmer pledged their support for the victory of Ukraine, which I took to mean the expulsion of Russia from Ukraine.
The question I have is whether this is an achievable result.
In my view, Ukraine has done exceptionally well to limit Russian advances, and even regain land, and it would seem to me an incredible achievement even to restore the borders to what they were immediately before the invasion.
I am no expert but I think it would be very difficult to expel Russia from Crimea. Russia, and probably the people of Crimea, would presumably fight to the end to defend it, and the only way I could see it being taken back would be for it to be razed to the ground, with presumably thousands and thousands of casualties. It also strikes me that in such circumstance Putin could revert to very desperate measures.
In the light of all this, I wonder if, say, the recapture of Crimea is a sensible or feasible war aim at least from a Western point of view.
Of course, it could be that Western countries realise there are limits to what can be achieved, but are not going to spell this out in public. Or the weapons etc promised are designed to prevent Russia making further advances. But I do think there is a danger of the West going too far, with unknown consequences, partly because of pre-Ukraine war failings, partly because of peer country pressure and, maybe in the UK, partly to boost Johnson or Sunak. I also sense there are people in Germany and the Pentagon, at least, who share this concern.
In this connection, it is interesting to note that there has been a rowing back today on slightly gung ho suggestions yesterday that the UK will provide fighter jets.
I would just conclude by saying that the only good thing to emerge from the war in Ukraine is that it appears to have proved that Russia does not have the capacity to invade any NATO or prospective NATO country, given that after nearly a year its gains have been so minimal in a country which is not even a NATO member.
[Post edited 9 Feb 2023 15:38]
War end by mutual consent. Sometimes that's because it's not worth the cost to carrying on (Vietnam for example). Sometimes because a country is shattered to the point where it lacks the capacity to go on (Germany in WW2). Can Ukraine win a total victory, liberating Crimea and the whole of the Donbass? Possibly, but it will be hard. Oddly though I think the Donbass will be harder to reclaim than Crimea.
If Ukraine can reach the Sea of Azov, then holding Crimea will quickly become untenable. Ukraine will be in range to hit the Kerch bridge with longer range MLRS and cut off supply to Crimea. If Ukraine reclaims the Southern bank of the Dnipro river opposite Kherson and particular the town of Nova Kakhovka, they control the majority of the water supply to Crimea (a key facility for Russia to control as Ukraine stopped the flow of water after the 2014 occupation).
Will the war get that far? Possibly not, it depends on the will of both sides and how long it goes on for. The thing that recurs in many wars throughout history is usually a hardening of softening of a nation's resolve. Vietnam saw American resolve weaken as they questioned the point of the war and North Vietnamese harden in what was a fight for survival, leading to America to decide it was not worth it. WW2 saw enormously hardened resolve on most major powers such that the war was total and the Axis didn't surrender even when it was clear by 1943 that there was only 1 side that could win.
I think Russia and Ukraine are both hardening. Russia are pitching it as an existential battle against all of NATO, Ukraine for the survival of their country, anger caused by Russian atrocities and emboldened by military victories. Until there is a softening of resolve, I don't think we can see where the cards will finally fall yet. Until then both sides will continue to push for "total victory". In public at least.
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