By continuing to use the site, you agree to our use of cookies and to abide by our Terms and Conditions. We in turn value your personal details in accordance with our Privacy Policy.
Please log in or register. Registered visitors get fewer ads.
Russian soldiers sent Olga Novikova, founder/director of Mariupol film festival video with her captured son demanding to pay 5000 Euro ransom for his life. If not they promised to send video of his execution. links in comments. pic.twitter.com/VBtauH45IZ
Two charming little actresses, Elizabeth and Sonya, of the city theatre of Mariupol. They both performed the role of Lucy in "The Chronicles of Narnia: The Lion, the Witch and the Wardrobe".
The 'special military operation' continues to reach new lows. on 09:10 - Jan 5 by DJR
Putin may want Ukraine, and Ukraine may want Russia off its territory, but it is not clear to me that either goal is achievable. That being the case, and to avoid more unnecessary killing and suffering, the rational solution would be peace based on the current borders, which admittedly involves an increase in the area controlled by Russia but is far better than looked like might be the case in the first few months of the conflict.
It doesn't strike me that this is going to happen, but all I can see is a repeat of the futility of the Iran-Iraq war which stretched on for 8 years, with no real victory and 1-2 million casualties.
But the key problem with that is how do you make a lasting peace. Even if such a compromise were reached, it’s clear the Russian objective was to absorb the entirety of Ukraine. You may well have a treaty of Versaille situation which kicks the can a few years down the road while Russia rebuilds its forces for another crack. Let’s be clear Putin is inherently untrustworthy- he lied through his teeth that he would not invade Ukraine. The West would have to offer some guarantees to Ukrainian independence, but I can’t see them being willing to risk direct intervention in the future. NATO membership could work, but obviously Putin wouldn’t stop the current war if that was in the table.
It’s a bit of a catch 22.
1
The 'special military operation' continues to reach new lows. on 09:24 - Jan 5 with 2081 views
The 'special military operation' continues to reach new lows. on 09:19 - Jan 5 by SuperKieranMcKenna
But the key problem with that is how do you make a lasting peace. Even if such a compromise were reached, it’s clear the Russian objective was to absorb the entirety of Ukraine. You may well have a treaty of Versaille situation which kicks the can a few years down the road while Russia rebuilds its forces for another crack. Let’s be clear Putin is inherently untrustworthy- he lied through his teeth that he would not invade Ukraine. The West would have to offer some guarantees to Ukrainian independence, but I can’t see them being willing to risk direct intervention in the future. NATO membership could work, but obviously Putin wouldn’t stop the current war if that was in the table.
It’s a bit of a catch 22.
I agree that there are really no easy answers. My post was an idealistic one motivated by what I see as the futility of the continuation of the current war, given that it appears to have reached deadlock. As it is, neither side appears in the mood for compromise anyway.
1
The 'special military operation' continues to reach new lows. on 09:38 - Jan 5 with 2053 views
The 'special military operation' continues to reach new lows. on 09:10 - Jan 5 by DJR
Putin may want Ukraine, and Ukraine may want Russia off its territory, but it is not clear to me that either goal is achievable. That being the case, and to avoid more unnecessary killing and suffering, the rational solution would be peace based on the current borders, which admittedly involves an increase in the area controlled by Russia but is far better than looked like might be the case in the first few months of the conflict.
It doesn't strike me that this is going to happen, but all I can see is a repeat of the futility of the Iran-Iraq war which stretched on for 8 years, with no real victory and 1-2 million casualties.
That is no solution unfortunately. The land bridge created is such a massive strategic and economic issue, not to mention the message it sends t Russia and the World "take what you want. If you hold it for a bit, we will let it go."
0
The 'special military operation' continues to reach new lows. on 09:48 - Jan 5 with 2028 views
The 'special military operation' continues to reach new lows. on 09:38 - Jan 5 by redrickstuhaart
That is no solution unfortunately. The land bridge created is such a massive strategic and economic issue, not to mention the message it sends t Russia and the World "take what you want. If you hold it for a bit, we will let it go."
There are clearly geo-political forces at work which make a solution even more difficult. But unless there is going to be a repeat of the 100 Years' War, all conflicts eventually reach some sort of conclusion/solution, so my view is that it would be better to acknowledge this and look for a solution sooner rather than later.
[Post edited 5 Jan 9:50]
0
The 'special military operation' continues to reach new lows. on 09:50 - Jan 5 with 2015 views
The 'special military operation' continues to reach new lows. on 09:48 - Jan 5 by DJR
There are clearly geo-political forces at work which make a solution even more difficult. But unless there is going to be a repeat of the 100 Years' War, all conflicts eventually reach some sort of conclusion/solution, so my view is that it would be better to acknowledge this and look for a solution sooner rather than later.
[Post edited 5 Jan 9:50]
Of course, but not if that solution is one which leads to a further invasion, or long term issues. Ukraine will not accept a land bridge across some of their key industrial and agricultural land, as well as ports. And neither should they.
1
The 'special military operation' continues to reach new lows. on 10:21 - Jan 5 with 1987 views
The 'special military operation' continues to reach new lows. on 09:50 - Jan 5 by redrickstuhaart
Of course, but not if that solution is one which leads to a further invasion, or long term issues. Ukraine will not accept a land bridge across some of their key industrial and agricultural land, as well as ports. And neither should they.
In an ideal world they certainly shouldn't. But it strikes me that the ability of Ukraine to expel Russia has been oversold by politicians, the media and various military experts. That being so, there is a case for facing up to the reality of what is actually possible, but I realise that Ukraine won't see it that way.
0
The 'special military operation' continues to reach new lows. on 10:31 - Jan 5 with 1973 views
The 'special military operation' continues to reach new lows. on 10:21 - Jan 5 by DJR
In an ideal world they certainly shouldn't. But it strikes me that the ability of Ukraine to expel Russia has been oversold by politicians, the media and various military experts. That being so, there is a case for facing up to the reality of what is actually possible, but I realise that Ukraine won't see it that way.
That is effectively appeasement. And we know where that got us.
Russia will simply pull the same stunt in due course if they achieve frozen borders now, and both they and China (vis a vis Taiwan) will be emboldened to do more of it.
0
The 'special military operation' continues to reach new lows. on 16:36 - Jan 5 with 1908 views
The 'special military operation' continues to reach new lows. on 10:31 - Jan 5 by redrickstuhaart
That is effectively appeasement. And we know where that got us.
Russia will simply pull the same stunt in due course if they achieve frozen borders now, and both they and China (vis a vis Taiwan) will be emboldened to do more of it.
Yes, appeasement isn't ideal, but neither in my view is ongoing conflict with no clear end result.
As it is, nothing I say makes any difference because ultimately it is up the Russia, on the one hand, and Ukraine and the West, on the other.
The 'special military operation' continues to reach new lows. on 16:36 - Jan 5 by DJR
Yes, appeasement isn't ideal, but neither in my view is ongoing conflict with no clear end result.
As it is, nothing I say makes any difference because ultimately it is up the Russia, on the one hand, and Ukraine and the West, on the other.
It seems from the following article in the Telegraph that my thinking on this isn't dissimilar to that behind the scenes of US and European governments.
If you can't access the full article, here are two extracts.
"When I was last in Kyiv, there was certainly discussion among some political leaders about the idea of a peace deal in which Russia would accept Ukrainian membership of Nato in exchange for guarantees that there would be no Ukrainian efforts to re-take occupied territory. Such talk might well be mere exasperation, but it is mana from heaven for Biden and many European leaders who want nothing more than such a peace agreement and as soon as possible."
"Nor is it adequate to tell the West that Ukrainians are fighting not just for their own country, but for the whole of Europe which will itself be under threat from Moscow if Putin succeeds in this war. That is certainly true, but there is no sign that the US president or Western European leaders really believe it. If they did, they would long ago have pulled out all the stops to contain Putin and to supply Ukraine with the massive amounts of weaponry it needs to defeat Russia."
[Post edited 9 Jan 17:54]
0
The 'special military operation' continues to reach new lows. on 18:33 - Jan 10 with 1635 views
Massive electricity outage in Omsk, Russia (population over 1 million people). About half of the city has no electricity. According to the regional energy minister, an accident at Tavricheskaya substation caused the outage.
The 'special military operation' continues to reach new lows. on 18:33 - Jan 10 by Eireannach_gorm
Remember this?
A spot of Karma.
Massive electricity outage in Omsk, Russia (population over 1 million people). About half of the city has no electricity. According to the regional energy minister, an accident at Tavricheskaya substation caused the outage.
It's the poor and powerless who will suffer most. If only it would be enough to lead to a revolution but there is too much acceptance of the government's propaganda for that, I am sure.
The 'special military operation' continues to reach new lows. on 16:36 - Jan 5 by DJR
Yes, appeasement isn't ideal, but neither in my view is ongoing conflict with no clear end result.
As it is, nothing I say makes any difference because ultimately it is up the Russia, on the one hand, and Ukraine and the West, on the other.
The problem with appeasement is that it doesn’t work. Dictators always want more. It’s always been that way and always will be.
Putin started this war. He started it because he saw easy pickings and a weak west. He was partly right. It’s not been easy, but the west is weak. That includes the U.K. that can’t even fill the vacancies its militia (too small to be called an army) has or man its few warships. Most of Europe is the same. Not interested beyond rhetoric and emptying the toy cupboard of mostly old stuff.
America isn’t interested, especially Trump whose aims are what? A better fake tan? Biden? Presumably as long as he gets his afternoon nap and milky drink he’s happy.
It’s easy to see what Putin wants and where the weaknesses are. Ukraine cannot sustain a war on its own. Its support is fading and I believe Russia will achieve its objective. I’ve always thought that.
An easy solution is to repeat what led to 45 years of peace in Europe. Spheres of influence. 1980s borders put back in with the possible exception of Germany. Alternatively, demilitarise Western Europe and leave security to the Russians. You’d get everlasting peace then and an end to Ukraine’s misery.
Ok I’m being very facetious here, but only because I see no choices beyond stopping Putin in Ukraine or complete Appeasement, including the dismantling of NATO, which will go anyway if that monster trump returns
1
The 'special military operation' continues to reach new lows. on 09:27 - Jan 17 with 1328 views
The 'special military operation' continues to reach new lows. on 08:48 - Jan 17 by Churchman
The problem with appeasement is that it doesn’t work. Dictators always want more. It’s always been that way and always will be.
Putin started this war. He started it because he saw easy pickings and a weak west. He was partly right. It’s not been easy, but the west is weak. That includes the U.K. that can’t even fill the vacancies its militia (too small to be called an army) has or man its few warships. Most of Europe is the same. Not interested beyond rhetoric and emptying the toy cupboard of mostly old stuff.
America isn’t interested, especially Trump whose aims are what? A better fake tan? Biden? Presumably as long as he gets his afternoon nap and milky drink he’s happy.
It’s easy to see what Putin wants and where the weaknesses are. Ukraine cannot sustain a war on its own. Its support is fading and I believe Russia will achieve its objective. I’ve always thought that.
An easy solution is to repeat what led to 45 years of peace in Europe. Spheres of influence. 1980s borders put back in with the possible exception of Germany. Alternatively, demilitarise Western Europe and leave security to the Russians. You’d get everlasting peace then and an end to Ukraine’s misery.
Ok I’m being very facetious here, but only because I see no choices beyond stopping Putin in Ukraine or complete Appeasement, including the dismantling of NATO, which will go anyway if that monster trump returns
"America isn’t interested, especially Trump whose aims are what? A better fake tan? Biden? Presumably as long as he gets his afternoon nap and milky drink he’s happy."
Great work Churchman.
"They break our legs and tell us to be grateful when they offer us crutches."
The 'special military operation' continues to reach new lows. on 08:48 - Jan 17 by Churchman
The problem with appeasement is that it doesn’t work. Dictators always want more. It’s always been that way and always will be.
Putin started this war. He started it because he saw easy pickings and a weak west. He was partly right. It’s not been easy, but the west is weak. That includes the U.K. that can’t even fill the vacancies its militia (too small to be called an army) has or man its few warships. Most of Europe is the same. Not interested beyond rhetoric and emptying the toy cupboard of mostly old stuff.
America isn’t interested, especially Trump whose aims are what? A better fake tan? Biden? Presumably as long as he gets his afternoon nap and milky drink he’s happy.
It’s easy to see what Putin wants and where the weaknesses are. Ukraine cannot sustain a war on its own. Its support is fading and I believe Russia will achieve its objective. I’ve always thought that.
An easy solution is to repeat what led to 45 years of peace in Europe. Spheres of influence. 1980s borders put back in with the possible exception of Germany. Alternatively, demilitarise Western Europe and leave security to the Russians. You’d get everlasting peace then and an end to Ukraine’s misery.
Ok I’m being very facetious here, but only because I see no choices beyond stopping Putin in Ukraine or complete Appeasement, including the dismantling of NATO, which will go anyway if that monster trump returns
The violence started in Kiev in 2014, after a US-backed putsch which removed a democratically elected president.
We are Premier League, say we are Premier League!
0
The 'special military operation' continues to reach new lows. on 09:44 - Jan 17 with 1307 views
The 'special military operation' continues to reach new lows. on 08:48 - Jan 17 by Churchman
The problem with appeasement is that it doesn’t work. Dictators always want more. It’s always been that way and always will be.
Putin started this war. He started it because he saw easy pickings and a weak west. He was partly right. It’s not been easy, but the west is weak. That includes the U.K. that can’t even fill the vacancies its militia (too small to be called an army) has or man its few warships. Most of Europe is the same. Not interested beyond rhetoric and emptying the toy cupboard of mostly old stuff.
America isn’t interested, especially Trump whose aims are what? A better fake tan? Biden? Presumably as long as he gets his afternoon nap and milky drink he’s happy.
It’s easy to see what Putin wants and where the weaknesses are. Ukraine cannot sustain a war on its own. Its support is fading and I believe Russia will achieve its objective. I’ve always thought that.
An easy solution is to repeat what led to 45 years of peace in Europe. Spheres of influence. 1980s borders put back in with the possible exception of Germany. Alternatively, demilitarise Western Europe and leave security to the Russians. You’d get everlasting peace then and an end to Ukraine’s misery.
Ok I’m being very facetious here, but only because I see no choices beyond stopping Putin in Ukraine or complete Appeasement, including the dismantling of NATO, which will go anyway if that monster trump returns
I am not sure if you saw what I later posted, which appeared to confirm that my thinking on this was not dissimilar to that of the West behind the scenes.
In any event, given what has happened, I just don't see Russia having the military capacity to invade any NATO country, leaving aside the fact that that would bring with it NATO involvement.
As it is, the Ukraine has done much better than anyone could have imagined, and (subject to whatever shenanigans Trump (and perhaps Congress) might get up to) my view is that the West will do all it can to make sure Ukraine doesn't lose any more land, whilst at the same time recognising that further gains in eastern Ukraine are unlikely without NATO actually getting involved directly, something which no one in the West appears to want.
[Post edited 17 Jan 10:21]
0
The 'special military operation' continues to reach new lows. on 10:07 - Jan 17 with 1279 views
The US must have an awful lot of operatives in Ukraine to have initiated that successful uprising!
"the Ukrainian parliament voted to remove Yanukovych from office by 328 to 0 (about 73% of the parliament's 450 members)." also sounds fairly democratic. You do realise that once a democratically-elected official is removed from power by a fair democratic process, they are no longer the democratically-elected official?
The US must have an awful lot of operatives in Ukraine to have initiated that successful uprising!
"the Ukrainian parliament voted to remove Yanukovych from office by 328 to 0 (about 73% of the parliament's 450 members)." also sounds fairly democratic. You do realise that once a democratically-elected official is removed from power by a fair democratic process, they are no longer the democratically-elected official?
Sadly, you are poorly informed. The Ukrainian constitution demands that 75% of the vote is reached. It wasn't even a valid vote either, so it fails on both counts.
We are Premier League, say we are Premier League!
0
The 'special military operation' continues to reach new lows. on 10:18 - Jan 17 with 1260 views
The 'special military operation' continues to reach new lows. on 10:12 - Jan 17 by matteoblue
Sadly, you are poorly informed. The Ukrainian constitution demands that 75% of the vote is reached. It wasn't even a valid vote either, so it fails on both counts.
As does your argument that the US brought about his demise.
EDIT: And you therefore mean contrary to the constitution as it stood at the time rather than "undemocratic". Clearly the process involved a popular uprising that had very widespread support.
The 'special military operation' continues to reach new lows. on 09:44 - Jan 17 by DJR
I am not sure if you saw what I later posted, which appeared to confirm that my thinking on this was not dissimilar to that of the West behind the scenes.
In any event, given what has happened, I just don't see Russia having the military capacity to invade any NATO country, leaving aside the fact that that would bring with it NATO involvement.
As it is, the Ukraine has done much better than anyone could have imagined, and (subject to whatever shenanigans Trump (and perhaps Congress) might get up to) my view is that the West will do all it can to make sure Ukraine doesn't lose any more land, whilst at the same time recognising that further gains in eastern Ukraine are unlikely without NATO actually getting involved directly, something which no one in the West appears to want.
[Post edited 17 Jan 10:21]
“As it is, the Ukraine has done much better than anyone could have imagined”
I think the only one’s surprised were the Russians. The West (in particular the US and UK) had been training and arming the Ukrainian military since the Russian invasion of Crimea. Russia thought they’d be in Kiev in a couple of days but the initial invasion was a dismal failure as the Ukrainians were well prepared. I don’t doubt they also had live intelligence passed to them regarding Russias plans and troop movements.
Hopefully the West will continue to back them unconditionally as long as the Ukrainians want to go on I totally agree a Trump presidency would be at the very best a big concern.
0
The 'special military operation' continues to reach new lows. on 14:13 - Jan 17 with 1195 views
The 'special military operation' continues to reach new lows. on 10:18 - Jan 17 by Nthsuffolkblue
As does your argument that the US brought about his demise.
EDIT: And you therefore mean contrary to the constitution as it stood at the time rather than "undemocratic". Clearly the process involved a popular uprising that had very widespread support.
[Post edited 17 Jan 10:58]
Thank you for demonstrating your support of illegal putsches.
We are Premier League, say we are Premier League!
-1
The 'special military operation' continues to reach new lows. on 15:10 - Jan 17 with 1161 views
The 'special military operation' continues to reach new lows. on 10:12 - Jan 17 by matteoblue
Sadly, you are poorly informed. The Ukrainian constitution demands that 75% of the vote is reached. It wasn't even a valid vote either, so it fails on both counts.
From Viktor's Wikipedia page.
In November 2013, Yanukovych made a sudden decision, amidst economic pressure from Russia,[10] to withdraw from signing an association agreement with the EU and instead accept a Russian trade deal and loan bailout. This sparked mass protests against him that ultimately led to his ousting as President.[11][12][13] The civil unrest peaked in February 2014, when almost 100 protesters were killed by police.[14] Yanukovych then signed an agreement with the opposition, but secretly fled the capital later that day. The next day, 22 February, Ukraine's parliament voted to remove him from his position and schedule early elections on the grounds that he had withdrawn from his constitutional duties,[15][16] rather than through following the impeachment process outlined in the Ukrainian constitution. Some of his own party voted for his removal.[17][18][19][20]
On 24 February 2014, the new government issued a warrant for Yanukovych's arrest, accusing him of being responsible for the killing of protestors.[21] Yanukovych went into exile in Russia, claiming to still be the legitimate head of state.[22] On 18 June 2015, Yanukovych was officially deprived of the title of president by parliament.[23] On 24 January 2019, he was sentenced in absentia to a thirteen year prison term for high treason by a Ukrainian court.[24] In various polling conducted since his departure from office, Yanukovych was ranked the least popular president in Ukraine's independent history.[25][26][27][28][29] Yanukovych has also given his name to a collective term for blunders made by Ukrainian politicians: Yanukisms.[30]
The fact that he absconded to Russia is probably significant.
0
The 'special military operation' continues to reach new lows. on 15:53 - Jan 17 with 1128 views
The 'special military operation' continues to reach new lows. on 14:13 - Jan 17 by matteoblue
Thank you for demonstrating your support of illegal putsches.
Does the Ukrainian constitution that demands that 75% of the vote is reached have any reference to turnout since I make it 100% that voted for his removal?
Aren't all violent attempts to overthrow a government illegal? I would tend to potentially support them if the government is acting contrary to the express will of the elected parliament and the popular support.
Why do you support the former president failing to enact the democratic process as decided by the parliament?
The 'special military operation' continues to reach new lows. on 20:53 - Jan 17 by Nthsuffolkblue
Does the Ukrainian constitution that demands that 75% of the vote is reached have any reference to turnout since I make it 100% that voted for his removal?
Aren't all violent attempts to overthrow a government illegal? I would tend to potentially support them if the government is acting contrary to the express will of the elected parliament and the popular support.
Why do you support the former president failing to enact the democratic process as decided by the parliament?
Nice try, but you're still wrong. Three quarters of the constitutional total of the Verkhovna Rada is needed. And as I said, the vote was invalid anyway. And thanks again for your support of violence over democracy. I think this safely removes you from any 'moral' arguments when it comes to war.
By continuing to use the site, you agree to our use of cookies and to abide by our Terms and Conditions.
