| Yeah it was racist and misogynistic….but they want his money, so let’s move on 01:19 - Mar 15 with 1090 views | Columba |
| Yeah it was racist and misogynistic….but they want his money, so let’s move on 23:38 - Mar 14 by StokieBlue |
Given you were championing the utter weapon that is Desantis I'm not sure you are really looking to change the fact that useless people get into power.
SB |
Utter weapon? The good people of Florida clearly feel differently. Off the forum and in the real world Desantis has done an incredible job for Florida. He's overseen a booming economy, schools are once again teaching a sensible, practical curriculum with Florida now ranking in the top ten for education provision, state spending has been streamlined and the previous wasteful spending on certain money-pit local niche services has been terminated. All in all Florida is a successful blueprint the rest of the country would do well to follow. I say that as an ex-pat with no real skin in the game.
It's actually a genuine shame for America, and the wider world, that Trump has dragged the whole Republican party so far towards loony town. In a different time Desantis could have genuinely have been the man to oversee a second golden American age. |  | |  |
| Yeah it was racist and misogynistic….but they want his money, so let’s move on 06:32 - Mar 15 with 987 views | ChorleyBoy |
| Yeah it was racist and misogynistic….but they want his money, so let’s move on 16:42 - Mar 14 by Herbivore |
It's whataboutery because you are essentially saying "yeah but what what Starmer taking money from Dale Vince", I thought that was pretty self evident to be honest and that you might be able to get there yourself.
It's false equivalence because you are comparing an unambiguously racist comment by a Tory donor with a view expressed in support of Palestine by a Labour donor. If you read his actual comments in the article you've linked, it takes a significant degree of mental gymnastics (kudos to you for trying to perform moves that Simone Biles would view as too tricky) to suggest that they are racist. That's why it is false equivalence. Again, I thought you might be able to get there yourself but it seems I've overestimated your abilities. |
It would be whataboutery if I was replying to the OP but I was replying to Leitrim and adding an example to his comment "I'm happy to say Labour would also seem to have some unscrupulous backers as well."
So that's ruled out whataboutery.
Leitrim went on to say "All they now need is those backers to start spouting abhorrent racist nonsense..." so I linked an article in which the Jerusalem Post described Vince's comments as anti-Zionist, which for GB and Netanyahu is antisemitic and therefore racist, thus giving Leitrim an example of the situation he was describing.
So you're right that, is an example of false equivalence if you don't consider anti-Zionism to be racist. And you agree with me. |  | | |
| Yeah it was racist and misogynistic….but they want his money, so let’s move on 07:14 - Mar 15 with 948 views | Herbivore |
| Yeah it was racist and misogynistic….but they want his money, so let’s move on 23:17 - Mar 14 by Europablue |
I'm not a big fan of the Tories, but I do believe that they will drive us slower along the road to ruin than Labour will. If you care about bigotry, the Labour Party look worse for that.
Perhaps we need a Labour win to cause a shake up of the Conservative party. It would be nice if they were actually trying to conserve things. Maybe we rather need a reformation party. |
Utterly delusional. |  |
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| Yeah it was racist and misogynistic….but they want his money, so let’s move on 07:22 - Mar 15 with 931 views | Herbivore |
| Yeah it was racist and misogynistic….but they want his money, so let’s move on 06:32 - Mar 15 by ChorleyBoy |
It would be whataboutery if I was replying to the OP but I was replying to Leitrim and adding an example to his comment "I'm happy to say Labour would also seem to have some unscrupulous backers as well."
So that's ruled out whataboutery.
Leitrim went on to say "All they now need is those backers to start spouting abhorrent racist nonsense..." so I linked an article in which the Jerusalem Post described Vince's comments as anti-Zionist, which for GB and Netanyahu is antisemitic and therefore racist, thus giving Leitrim an example of the situation he was describing.
So you're right that, is an example of false equivalence if you don't consider anti-Zionism to be racist. And you agree with me. |
If Dale Vince had said "Netanyahu makes me want to hate all Jewish men, he should be shot" then you might have had a point. Instead he expressed support for Palestine and condemned Israeli violence and occupation of Palestinian territory. You're still having to do a lot of mental gymnastics to paint that as antisemitic hence the false equivalence. The whataboutery is debatable, engaging in an attempt to divert away from the overt racism of a major Tory donor whether in response to a particular post or the thread in general is whataboutery. Plus your first post on the thread, in response to the thread, was to call Starmer a spineless puppet, so I think the whataboutery charge sticks, personally.
What are your views on what Hester said and whether or not the Tories should keep the money of someone who says overtly racist and vile things about MPs? [Post edited 15 Mar 22:27]
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| Yeah it was racist and misogynistic….but they want his money, so let’s move on 07:23 - Mar 15 with 931 views | Herbivore |
| Yeah it was racist and misogynistic….but they want his money, so let’s move on 23:53 - Mar 14 by Europablue |
Thank you for engaging respectfully on my comments.
We might be talking across things said by various people. I was talking about whether a person is racist and that is based on intent, not how we recieve the comments. To be clear, I don't think the initial comment was acceptable to say, but he should have been forgiven if he just apologized. His reaction was deplorable, but he wasn't advocating violence. "should be shot for that" is always meant as an exaggeration and no-one using that phrase is genuinely advocating actual violence. Unless he is telling people to physical harm Diane Abbott, it is not a police matter.
Racism against white people is more problematic on many levels. It seems socially acceptable to say racist things against white people. Our education system discriminates against white working class boys. The other big problem is that it increases racial tensions for white people to feel like they are prosecuted for racial abuse, but not protected from it. It would be understandable for people to resent that. In Western countries, historically absolutely, racism against non-white people has been worse in both intensity and frequency and in that it was institutional.
Look up critical race theory. See if you agree with those concepts. There are people who believe that you can't be racist against white people. So yes, people absolutely have different ideas about what racism is. It should be clear that it discrimination based on race, i.e. it applies to discrimination against any race including white people.
I don't agree entirely with what Diane Abbott said about Jewish people, but I prefer to have that kind of discussion out in the open rather than allowing resentment to fester. It is a valid question to ask why Jews are classified based on race as well as faith. It is also important to discuss where the majority of anti-semitism comes from and that is from far-left people and often followers of Islam. I truly believe that if we want equally between races we have to treat people the same regardless of race, so we cannot privelege races even if they are in the minority.
About travellers I meant more along the lines of people who say they don't like travellers are lumping them all together.
I think that we should keep in mind that racism is an extention of the natural bias against outgroups. By living in a multiracial but monocultural society we would not have outgroups based on race or ethnicity. Integration and free expression are the ways to really minimise racism. |
"Racism against white people is more problematic on many levels". I cannot facepalm hard enough reading this level of stupid.
Edit - And it's also not correct to say that antisemitism comes from the far left, sadly it comes from all quarters (including the left) but is more prevalent on the far right, as research shows: https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/10.1177/10659129221111081 [Post edited 15 Mar 7:55]
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| Yeah it was racist and misogynistic….but they want his money, so let’s move on 07:26 - Mar 15 with 920 views | DJR |
| Yeah it was racist and misogynistic….but they want his money, so let’s move on 23:19 - Mar 14 by Europablue |
Tell me your alternate theory then, because that seems pretty obvious to me. In general English culture was very bigoted against the Irish when I was growing up in the 80s and 90s. |
Given that I have read that redheads form a larger part of the Scottish gene pool than the Irish, my theory is that redheads get abuse because of anti-Scottish bigotry.
Not! [Post edited 15 Mar 7:43]
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| Yeah it was racist and misogynistic….but they want his money, so let’s move on 07:31 - Mar 15 with 900 views | DJR |
| Yeah it was racist and misogynistic….but they want his money, so let’s move on 23:23 - Mar 14 by Aviator |
These comments were made five years before he donated the money and were not known about until recently. You can hardly expect the Tory party to return the £10m which was accepted in good faith. The PM has condemned the comments. I’m not sure what more people expect. Tory party is the most diverse of all the parliamentary parties. It seems that the opposition parties are the ones playing the ‘race card’ here. |
You are wrong. According to a recent Parliamentary briefing note, of the 66 MPs from minority ethnic backgrounds, 41 (62%) are Labour and 23 are Conservatives (35%). | | | |
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| Yeah it was racist and misogynistic….but they want his money, so let’s move on 07:40 - Mar 15 with 865 views | GlasgowBlue |
| Yeah it was racist and misogynistic….but they want his money, so let’s move on 07:31 - Mar 15 by DJR |
You are wrong. According to a recent Parliamentary briefing note, of the 66 MPs from minority ethnic backgrounds, 41 (62%) are Labour and 23 are Conservatives (35%). |
What he should have said is that the cabinet post 2019 is the most ethnically diverse. Of course this is helped by the fact that the Tories have been in power since 2010 and I would imagine that the next Labour cabinet will be equally diverse, but hopefully more competent.
Although tbh I’m not sure what the current make up of the shadow cabinet is. |  |
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| Yeah it was racist and misogynistic….but they want his money, so let’s move on 07:42 - Mar 15 with 853 views | bluelagos |
| Yeah it was racist and misogynistic….but they want his money, so let’s move on 07:23 - Mar 15 by Herbivore |
"Racism against white people is more problematic on many levels". I cannot facepalm hard enough reading this level of stupid.
Edit - And it's also not correct to say that antisemitism comes from the far left, sadly it comes from all quarters (including the left) but is more prevalent on the far right, as research shows: https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/10.1177/10659129221111081 [Post edited 15 Mar 7:55]
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The mask did rather slip with that comment. |  |
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| Yeah it was racist and misogynistic….but they want his money, so let’s move on 07:50 - Mar 15 with 826 views | DJR |
| Yeah it was racist and misogynistic….but they want his money, so let’s move on 07:40 - Mar 15 by GlasgowBlue |
What he should have said is that the cabinet post 2019 is the most ethnically diverse. Of course this is helped by the fact that the Tories have been in power since 2010 and I would imagine that the next Labour cabinet will be equally diverse, but hopefully more competent.
Although tbh I’m not sure what the current make up of the shadow cabinet is. |
That is probably the only admirable thing the Tories have done since 2019. | | | |
| Yeah it was racist and misogynistic….but they want his money, so let’s move on 07:57 - Mar 15 with 797 views | Herbivore |
| Yeah it was racist and misogynistic….but they want his money, so let’s move on 07:50 - Mar 15 by DJR |
That is probably the only admirable thing the Tories have done since 2019. |
And in that time they've ramped up the dog whistling significantly and moderate Tories like Baroness Warsi are tearing the hair out over the state of the Tory party. Having a diverse cabinet is not in itself evidence that the party has become less racist. | |
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| Yeah it was racist and misogynistic….but they want his money, so let’s move on 07:58 - Mar 15 with 798 views | MattinLondon |
| Yeah it was racist and misogynistic….but they want his money, so let’s move on 07:23 - Mar 15 by Herbivore |
"Racism against white people is more problematic on many levels". I cannot facepalm hard enough reading this level of stupid.
Edit - And it's also not correct to say that antisemitism comes from the far left, sadly it comes from all quarters (including the left) but is more prevalent on the far right, as research shows: https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/10.1177/10659129221111081 [Post edited 15 Mar 7:55]
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That entire paragraph is a tad confusing for me.
I haven’t any children currently in secondary education so the national curriculum isn’t on the forefront of my thoughts. But I do have friends who have children of GCSE age and I’ve never heard them complain about discrimination against them on the basis of race. For clarity, they are white.
The other sentences - The other big problem is that it increases racial tensions for white people to feel like they are prosecuted for racial abuse, but not protected from it. It would be understandable for people to resent that.
Can you please give some examples of this? As I’m not entirely sure that racism against white people is that serious a problem. But if you have a couple examples then it’ll be interesting to read. |  | | |
| Yeah it was racist and misogynistic….but they want his money, so let’s move on 08:17 - Mar 15 with 771 views | GlasgowBlue |
| Yeah it was racist and misogynistic….but they want his money, so let’s move on 07:58 - Mar 15 by MattinLondon |
That entire paragraph is a tad confusing for me.
I haven’t any children currently in secondary education so the national curriculum isn’t on the forefront of my thoughts. But I do have friends who have children of GCSE age and I’ve never heard them complain about discrimination against them on the basis of race. For clarity, they are white.
The other sentences - The other big problem is that it increases racial tensions for white people to feel like they are prosecuted for racial abuse, but not protected from it. It would be understandable for people to resent that.
Can you please give some examples of this? As I’m not entirely sure that racism against white people is that serious a problem. But if you have a couple examples then it’ll be interesting to read. |
There is racism against white people. The Asian grooming gangs targeting predominantly white girls because, in there view, white girls are sluts and slags due to our western culture, is a small example that it exists.
But in a white majority country, to compare racism against white people with the centuries of racism and discrimination that people of colour have experienced throughout every institution in the UK and elsewhere is laughable. White privileged is very real even today. [Post edited 15 Mar 8:21]
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| Yeah it was racist and misogynistic….but they want his money, so let’s move on 08:40 - Mar 15 with 743 views | DJR |
| Yeah it was racist and misogynistic….but they want his money, so let’s move on 07:57 - Mar 15 by Herbivore |
And in that time they've ramped up the dog whistling significantly and moderate Tories like Baroness Warsi are tearing the hair out over the state of the Tory party. Having a diverse cabinet is not in itself evidence that the party has become less racist. |
That's certainly true. | | | |
| Yeah it was racist and misogynistic….but they want his money, so let’s move on 08:51 - Mar 15 with 718 views | Herbivore |
| Yeah it was racist and misogynistic….but they want his money, so let’s move on 08:17 - Mar 15 by GlasgowBlue |
There is racism against white people. The Asian grooming gangs targeting predominantly white girls because, in there view, white girls are sluts and slags due to our western culture, is a small example that it exists.
But in a white majority country, to compare racism against white people with the centuries of racism and discrimination that people of colour have experienced throughout every institution in the UK and elsewhere is laughable. White privileged is very real even today. [Post edited 15 Mar 8:21]
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Not sure on that first para, GB. Grooming gangs tend to target people who are vulnerable first and foremost, kids who are in the care system, who are running away from home, who have difficult lives at home, who may have been sucked into using substances. It's true that most of the girls were white but I think it's overstating it to say they were targeted because of their ethnicity, especially since not all of the victims were white. That doesn't make it any less deplorable, I'm just not sure whether it's accurate to describe their tactics as racist rather than purely predatory. | |
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| Yeah it was racist and misogynistic….but they want his money, so let’s move on 09:10 - Mar 15 with 668 views | GlasgowBlue |
| Yeah it was racist and misogynistic….but they want his money, so let’s move on 08:51 - Mar 15 by Herbivore |
Not sure on that first para, GB. Grooming gangs tend to target people who are vulnerable first and foremost, kids who are in the care system, who are running away from home, who have difficult lives at home, who may have been sucked into using substances. It's true that most of the girls were white but I think it's overstating it to say they were targeted because of their ethnicity, especially since not all of the victims were white. That doesn't make it any less deplorable, I'm just not sure whether it's accurate to describe their tactics as racist rather than purely predatory. |
From the trial it was stated that abusers chose their victims for racial reasons. They were “white girls”, “white slags”, “white bitches”. Of course there were the other factors you mentioned and first and foremost they are rapists rather than racists. But it was a factor.
My point was that whilst racism against white peoples does occur, and there are other examples from some inner city schools, it’s not anywhere near the scale of racism against people of colour and is quite a recent phenomenon, whereas racism against POC has been around for centuries, has impacted around the world and has been imbedded in all aspects of a British society.
So the “what about white racism” counter argument in utter nonsense. | |
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| Yeah it was racist and misogynistic….but they want his money, so let’s move on 09:12 - Mar 15 with 667 views | Pinewoodblue |
| Yeah it was racist and misogynistic….but they want his money, so let’s move on 08:51 - Mar 15 by Herbivore |
Not sure on that first para, GB. Grooming gangs tend to target people who are vulnerable first and foremost, kids who are in the care system, who are running away from home, who have difficult lives at home, who may have been sucked into using substances. It's true that most of the girls were white but I think it's overstating it to say they were targeted because of their ethnicity, especially since not all of the victims were white. That doesn't make it any less deplorable, I'm just not sure whether it's accurate to describe their tactics as racist rather than purely predatory. |
Grooming gangs target a disadvantaged minority that just happen to be white.
The worst examples of racism in U.K. can be found between ethnic minority groups.
Now for a different perspective on the Hester debate. The real issue shouldn’t be about something he said five years ago. We should be asking how someone can make so much money from government funded contracts that he is in a position to personally donate £10,000,000 to the political party that gave him the opportunity to make so much. |  |
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| Yeah it was racist and misogynistic….but they want his money, so let’s move on 09:27 - Mar 15 with 640 views | Blueschev |
| Yeah it was racist and misogynistic….but they want his money, so let’s move on 09:12 - Mar 15 by Pinewoodblue |
Grooming gangs target a disadvantaged minority that just happen to be white.
The worst examples of racism in U.K. can be found between ethnic minority groups.
Now for a different perspective on the Hester debate. The real issue shouldn’t be about something he said five years ago. We should be asking how someone can make so much money from government funded contracts that he is in a position to personally donate £10,000,000 to the political party that gave him the opportunity to make so much. |
I agree that should make people furious. In a serious democracy such a situation would bring down a government as it is such blatant cronyism. But the system in this country is not particularly democratic. |  | | |
| Yeah it was racist and misogynistic….but they want his money, so let’s move on 09:32 - Mar 15 with 619 views | Europablue |
| Yeah it was racist and misogynistic….but they want his money, so let’s move on 00:15 - Mar 15 by Whos_blue |
Whilst downplaying the shooting comments, we seem to have paid no attention to the thoughts of Diane Abbott, who ultimately was the recipient of the disgusting comments.
BBC News - Diane Abbott calls Tory donor's comments frightening
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-68542624
I was also interested in the statement regarding racism towards white people, particularly how our education system discriminates against white working class boys. I genuinely don't understand the data set you are using to underpin your statement.
I have a loose knowledge of the education system and it is broadly acknowledged that young afro carribean boys tend to fair less well educationally as a demographic.
You write as if you're quite well researched, so I'm genuinely interested to understand how you've arrived at these positions? |
Thanks for the link there. I didn't read the context there . "I think that she should be shot" is totally unacceptable and he deserves all the flack that he is getting. I am concerned about the legal threshold for harassment or incitement to violence, and I can't imagine a reasonable law that takes a specific person's feelings into account. We can't compare how upset people are, so there should be set punishments for set actions.
It is common knowledge that working class white boys are failed by the system. it is because they have been ignored in favour of other groups. Afro Caribbean boys were underperforming, and they were given extra attention. You could say that it is the white working class boys' turn, but focusing on a particular race feels wrong. Having said, theory is all well and good, but if different racial groups have distinct cultures, then it might be necessary to consider race as a factor. We also have to push back against the institutional bias against white people in our overcorrected system. You can google the subject of poor performance by white working class boys and come up with a lot of hits, but check out this article as an example
https://www.headteacher-update.com/content/best-practice/supporting-the-educatio | | | |
| Yeah it was racist and misogynistic….but they want his money, so let’s move on 09:35 - Mar 15 with 604 views | Europablue |
| Yeah it was racist and misogynistic….but they want his money, so let’s move on 07:14 - Mar 15 by Herbivore |
Utterly delusional. |
If you don't offer a counterpoint, then you might as well not bother replying.
Show me someone who is excited about the prospect of a Labour government and I will show you a madman. | | | |
| Yeah it was racist and misogynistic….but they want his money, so let’s move on 09:41 - Mar 15 with 583 views | BlueBadger |
| Yeah it was racist and misogynistic….but they want his money, so let’s move on 23:17 - Mar 14 by Europablue |
I'm not a big fan of the Tories, but I do believe that they will drive us slower along the road to ruin than Labour will. If you care about bigotry, the Labour Party look worse for that.
Perhaps we need a Labour win to cause a shake up of the Conservative party. It would be nice if they were actually trying to conserve things. Maybe we rather need a reformation party. |
'No u' is not the stirring defence you think it is. |  |
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| Yeah it was racist and misogynistic….but they want his money, so let’s move on 09:45 - Mar 15 with 576 views | giant_stow |
| Yeah it was racist and misogynistic….but they want his money, so let’s move on 09:35 - Mar 15 by Europablue |
If you don't offer a counterpoint, then you might as well not bother replying.
Show me someone who is excited about the prospect of a Labour government and I will show you a madman. |
13 years of Tory mismanagement, cronyism and stagnation is the counterpoint. |  |
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| Yeah it was racist and misogynistic….but they want his money, so let’s move on 09:45 - Mar 15 with 575 views | Herbivore |
| Yeah it was racist and misogynistic….but they want his money, so let’s move on 09:35 - Mar 15 by Europablue |
If you don't offer a counterpoint, then you might as well not bother replying.
Show me someone who is excited about the prospect of a Labour government and I will show you a madman. |
Says the man who has watched the Tories destroy the country over the past 13 years and claims, apparently with a straight face, that they'll do a better job than Labour. | |
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| Yeah it was racist and misogynistic….but they want his money, so let’s move on 09:45 - Mar 15 with 575 views | Europablue |
| Yeah it was racist and misogynistic….but they want his money, so let’s move on 07:23 - Mar 15 by Herbivore |
"Racism against white people is more problematic on many levels". I cannot facepalm hard enough reading this level of stupid.
Edit - And it's also not correct to say that antisemitism comes from the far left, sadly it comes from all quarters (including the left) but is more prevalent on the far right, as research shows: https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/10.1177/10659129221111081 [Post edited 15 Mar 7:55]
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Keep face palming all you like, but I gave good reasoning. Your emotional responses don't trump reality. Discriminating against the majority is a recipe for disaster. We have done a good job of fighting institutional racism against non-whites, so much so that whites are discriminated against.
Your source is about the US, I thought we were talking about the UK. Muslims are probably the source of most antisemitism in the UK. The most important issue about antisemitism is not what Anti-Semites' political leanings are, but the attitude of the major political parties and Labour seem to have a tolerance for antisemitism. | | | |
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