Forum | Yeah it was racist and misogynistic….but they want his money, so let’s move by MattinLondon

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Yeah it was racist and misogynistic….but they want his money, so let’s move 10:32 - Mar 13 with 14892 views

MattinLondon

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-68552407

The Tories have sunk to even lower - wonder how low they can go.

Yeah it was racist and misogynistic….but they want his money, so let’s move on 09:46 - Mar 15 with 1690 views

Herbivore

Yeah it was racist and misogynistic….but they want his money, so let’s move on 09:45 - Mar 15 by Europablue

Keep face palming all you like, but I gave good reasoning. Your emotional responses don't trump reality. Discriminating against the majority is a recipe for disaster. We have done a good job of fighting institutional racism against non-whites, so much so that whites are discriminated against.

Your source is about the US, I thought we were talking about the UK. Muslims are probably the source of most antisemitism in the UK. The most important issue about antisemitism is not what Anti-Semites' political leanings are, but the attitude of the major political parties and Labour seem to have a tolerance for antisemitism.

This whole post is a car crash.

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Yeah it was racist and misogynistic….but they want his money, so let’s move on 09:49 - Mar 15 with 1696 views

giant_stow

Yeah it was racist and misogynistic….but they want his money, so let’s move on 09:45 - Mar 15 by Herbivore
Says the man who has watched the Tories destroy the country over the past 13 years and claims, apparently with a straight face, that they'll do a better job than Labour.

I can't see how any rational person could argue against that - why would *anyone* want another 5 years of this?

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Yeah it was racist and misogynistic….but they want his money, so let’s move on 09:57 - Mar 15 with 1653 views

redrickstuhaart

Yeah it was racist and misogynistic….but they want his money, so let’s move on 09:45 - Mar 15 by Europablue

The classic trumpist alt right assertion.

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Yeah it was racist and misogynistic….but they want his money, so let’s move on 09:59 - Mar 15 with 1651 views

lowhouseblue

Yeah it was racist and misogynistic….but they want his money, so let’s move on 09:45 - Mar 15 by Europablue

"Discriminating against the majority is a recipe for disaster. We have done a good job of fighting institutional racism against non-whites, so much so that whites are discriminated against."

go on then justify this, with examples if you have them.

And so as the loose-bowelled pigeon of time swoops low over the unsuspecting tourist of destiny, and the flatulent skunk of fate wanders into the air-conditioning system of eternity, I notice it's the end of the show

Yeah it was racist and misogynistic….but they want his money, so let’s move on 11:05 - Mar 15 with 1560 views

DJR

Yeah it was racist and misogynistic….but they want his money, so let’s move on 09:59 - Mar 15 by lowhouseblue
"Discriminating against the majority is a recipe for disaster. We have done a good job of fighting institutional racism against non-whites, so much so that whites are discriminated against." go on then justify this, with examples if you have them.

Some of my best friends are white.

Yeah it was racist and misogynistic….but they want his money, so let’s move on 11:22 - Mar 15 with 1534 views

MattinLondon

Yeah it was racist and misogynistic….but they want his money, so let’s move on 09:35 - Mar 15 by Europablue
If you don't offer a counterpoint, then you might as well not bother replying. Show me someone who is excited about the prospect of a Labour government and I will show you a madman.

I wouldn’t say that I’m excited for Labour right now in terms of policies, but I am excited that if elected, they will govern the country in a civilised and grownup manner - I’m hoping that they will bring respectability and grown-up thought to the country.

The Tories are a car crash of red, white and blue Dodgems with little electrically left but with angry and incompetent drivers behind the wheel.

Yeah it was racist and misogynistic….but they want his money, so let’s move on 11:35 - Mar 15 with 1511 views

leitrimblue

Yeah it was racist and misogynistic….but they want his money, so let’s move on 09:32 - Mar 15 by Europablue

Thanks for the link there. I didn't read the context there . "I think that she should be shot" is totally unacceptable and he deserves all the flack that he is getting. I am concerned about the legal threshold for harassment or incitement to violence, and I can't imagine a reasonable law that takes a specific person's feelings into account. We can't compare how upset people are, so there should be set punishments for set actions.

It is common knowledge that working class white boys are failed by the system. it is because they have been ignored in favour of other groups. Afro Caribbean boys were underperforming, and they were given extra attention. You could say that it is the white working class boys' turn, but focusing on a particular race feels wrong. Having said, theory is all well and good, but if different racial groups have distinct cultures, then it might be necessary to consider race as a factor. We also have to push back against the institutional bias against white people in our overcorrected system. You can google the subject of poor performance by white working class boys and come up with a lot of hits, but check out this article as an example

https://www.headteacher-update.com/content/best-practice/supporting-the-educatio

You have tried in vain to justify and minimise Hesters vile racist comments.
You have then spouted more bigoted nonsense about travellers.
Now your spouting your white boys are the worst victims of racism b0ll0x.
I think its fair to say that what does and doesn't pass as racism or xenophobia etc is not your strong point and perhaps you should save yourself ( and the rest of us) til you find a thread subject you are more comfortable with.

[Post edited 15 Mar 11:43]

Yeah it was racist and misogynistic….but they want his money, so let’s move on 11:42 - Mar 15 with 1500 views

leitrimblue

Yeah it was racist and misogynistic….but they want his money, so let’s move on 15:45 - Mar 14 by ChorleyBoy

Dale Vince would appear to many as one of such unscrupulous backers, but it's very complicated.

Vince has donated millions to the Labour Party and tens of thousands to Starmer himself.

The Jerusalem Post says that "Green energy industrialist Dale Vince has been using his English soccer club (Forest Green) as a means to promote his anti-Israel agenda and calls him an anti-Zionist:

Who is Dale Vince, the anti-Zionist owner of the 'world's greenest football club'?

https://www.jpost.com/bds-threat/article-705168

Despite the JP identifying Vince as an anti-Zionist with an anti Israel agenda it holds short of accusing him of antisemitism. I guess that's why the Labour Party Keir Starmer is happy to take Vince's donations because he's not antisemitic.

Or is he? There are some contributors to this forum who insist that although you can be critical of Israel without being antisemitic, anti-Zionism is a form of antisemitism. Benjamin Netanyahu also says that anti-Zionism is a form of antisemitism, but it seems he's cool with Labour Friends of Israel member Starmer taking donations from people he deems antisemitic.

It's very complicated isn't it?

I mean antisemitism is a form of racism and I don't think a Labour leader could really be a Friend of Israel if you're taking money from someone who the leader of Israel says is an antisemite.

It seems to me that there are lots of people benefitting from the confusion. Some Zionists are antisemites and other are not - it seems to depend on whether they support (tacitly or otherwise) the occupation of Palestine or not.

But it's more complicated than that. Starmer claims to be a friend to Palestinians too. You can't make this stuff up:

https://www.independent.co.uk/voices/labour-israel-keir-starmer-palestine-b19601

It seems Starmer has a lot of friends, even ones who hate each other! But it appears the Palestinians are not very impressed with Keir's proclaimed friendship because it's little more than lip service and Israel is quite calm about the Labour Party having a sizeable anti-Zionist donor.

It seems to me like these politicians don't really take racism seriously at all but use it as a political tool which they can beat people with selectively as and when they choose to.

The evidence is clear.

Edited to add emphasis

[Post edited 14 Mar 15:50]

Sorry, don't have time to read these links etc now, but will try to later if get time.

I think the important and interesting line from yer post is the paragraph near the bottom in bold type.
I think I have to agree with you, that politicians from all sides don't really seem to take racism as seriously as they could and instead seem to be using it as a political tool.

In my opinion this is a worrying and frightening development for all minority groups and society in general

Yeah it was racist and misogynistic….but they want his money, so let’s move on 12:00 - Mar 15 with 1468 views

Swansea_Blue

Yeah it was racist and misogynistic….but they want his money, so let’s move on 11:22 - Mar 15 by MattinLondon

If the Welsh Government are anything to go by, it will be a radical shift from the Trumpian/Johnsonian populism that the Westminster govt have embraced. They get some things wrong and can't keep everyone happy all of the time, but they've been grown ups and aren't afraid to tackle difficult issues if they think it will make a positive difference to the country, even if it makes them unpopular (such as the 20 mph national speed limit change). Policy wise they're different of course, and Drakeford's not a fan of the direction Starmer's taking the party. How they govern though I expect will be similar; you don't get the petty politics of populism and it's a breath of fresh air.

Poll:

Do you think Pert is key to all of this?

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Yeah it was racist and misogynistic….but they want his money, so let’s move on 12:12 - Mar 15 with 1445 views

Swansea_Blue

Yeah it was racist and misogynistic….but they want his money, so let’s move on 09:35 - Mar 15 by Europablue
If you don't offer a counterpoint, then you might as well not bother replying. Show me someone who is excited about the prospect of a Labour government and I will show you a madman.

It's interesting how some people get so fanatical over politics like you that they lose all sense of reason and perspective.

Very few people on here appear to be excited about what Labour are promising (whatever that is this week). I'm not sure I've seen anyone on here slavishly defending them, but when faced with someone who seems as blinkered and evangelical about the Tories as you are it's only natural people push back. You're getting a bit of a pile on, which on the one hand is a bit harsh. But on the other hand you don't seem to be connected with reality and your arguments aren't making any sense. The Tories have done a terrible job. To not acknowledge or even realise that seems a bit odd.

Poll:

Do you think Pert is key to all of this?

Yeah it was racist and misogynistic….but they want his money, so let’s move on 12:42 - Mar 15 with 1384 views

Herbivore

Yeah it was racist and misogynistic….but they want his money, so let’s move on 12:12 - Mar 15 by Swansea_Blue

They've mainly been getting stick for their repeated and ridiculous assertion that it's actually white folk who are the real victims of racism. I think a pile on is fair enough on those circumstances, they're peddling alt-right, borderline far-right tropes.

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Yeah it was racist and misogynistic….but they want his money, so let’s move on 12:50 - Mar 15 with 1357 views

lowhouseblue

Yeah it was racist and misogynistic….but they want his money, so let’s move on 09:32 - Mar 15 by Europablue

there are many reasons why working class white boys as a group underperform educationally and why that disadvantage is then cumulative. but racism or discrimination is not one of them. class, intergenerational and regional socio-economic disadvantage is explained very well without relying on racism.

Yeah it was racist and misogynistic….but they want his money, so let’s move on 13:12 - Mar 15 with 1303 views

Churchman

Yeah it was racist and misogynistic….but they want his money, so let’s move on 09:49 - Mar 15 by giant_stow
I can't see how any rational person could argue against that - why would anyone want another 5 years of this?

I agree. If the only alternative to the current disgraceful shower was the Dictators and Meglomaniacs party my vote would be going to Prime Minister Vlad T Impaler and Chancellor Mr Charles bonkers Manson.

The tories have proven themselves anti democratic, dangerous, representative of their own 1% (generous), thieving, immoral, incompetent scum.

I don’t much like the look of Starmer and his mob, but dredging up Labour’s past c0ck ups from 14 years ago and beyond is to me utterly irrelevant. We are here, it is now. Since there is no viable alternative, of course they deserve their opportunity. Tomorrow preferably.

At the very least, however much the mess it up I doubt their aim will redistribution of wealth to the Bullingdon Club brigade and further destruction of the fabric of society in some mad recreation of pre-Victorian Britain.

Yeah it was racist and misogynistic….but they want his money, so let’s move on 13:33 - Mar 15 with 1260 views

eireblue

Yeah it was racist and misogynistic….but they want his money, so let’s move on 09:32 - Mar 15 by Europablue

From the paper you posted

“ I think he might be right. I suspect the focus on white working class boys is misguided and we should instead focus on socio-economic deprivation – and thus social class – as well as gender, and not concern ourselves too much with ethnicity as a cause of disadvantage.”

What you posted

“We also have to push back against the institutional bias against white people in our overcorrected system.”

I know you don’t like clever things being mentioned.

But…ummmm…..the example you cited, is saying the opposite of what you concluded…..ummm…you see the problem…..it’s almost like you have a fully formed opinion, and are scrambling for something to back it up, but….you missed.

Yeah it was racist and misogynistic….but they want his money, so let’s move on 13:51 - Mar 15 with 1226 views

DJR

Yeah it was racist and misogynistic….but they want his money, so let’s move on 11:42 - Mar 15 by leitrimblue

This is the main thrust of the following article which I linked in an earlier post.

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2024/mar/15/britain-racism-tory-labour

Yeah it was racist and misogynistic….but they want his money, so let’s move on 20:15 - Mar 15 with 1109 views

Swansea_Blue

Yeah it was racist and misogynistic….but they want his money, so let’s move on 12:42 - Mar 15 by Herbivore
They've mainly been getting stick for their repeated and ridiculous assertion that it's actually white folk who are the real victims of racism. I think a pile on is fair enough on those circumstances, they're peddling alt-right, borderline far-right tropes.

You’re probably right, I just don’t like pile ons. I’m a lover/softie/coward (delete as appropriate).

Poll:

Do you think Pert is key to all of this?

Yeah it was racist and misogynistic….but they want his money, so let’s move on 09:35 - Mar 16 with 1001 views

DJR

I came across these passages in a couple of articles in the Independent which I thought worth highlighting.

"[Abbott] also attacked Sir Keir and said: “The position of the current leadership of the Labour Party is disappointing, which seemed equally reluctant at the outset to call out either racism or sexism.

“Instead, the entire focus was on the demand that the Tories give Hester back his money, which is surely not the primary point in this case.”

Ms Abbott, who was a Labour MP for more than three decades until she was suspended last year, said her former party had initially failed to label Mr Hester's alleged comments against her as racist and sexist.

She went on to condemn the “shocking levels of racism and sexism from within the Labour Party, again much of it directed against me personally”.

"Diane Abbott has accused Labour of double standards after the party was accused of using the Tory donor race row to boost its own funding - despite her being suspended.

The Labour Party’s campaign team sent an email to members, saying it was “fuming” after the Conservative Party refused to return a £10m donation from business tycoon Frank Hester over allegedly racist remarks he made about Ms Abbott.

The message then asked for handouts “to close the huge fundraising gap between us and the Tories”.

But the MP, who was a Labour MP for more than three decades until she was suspended last year, hit out at the “extraordinary” email amid the party leadership’s refusal to restore the whip, adding: “Hypocritical barely covers it.”

She said: "I am currently suspended from the Labour Party. I have called out the double standards of my treatment compared to supporters of the leadership and the Forde Report itemised abuse directed at me by serving officers of the party.

“Then they want to use renewed abuse against me as a fundraiser. Hypocritical barely covers it."

Ms Abbott says she has not received an apology after a 2022 report by lawyer Martin Forde on Labour’s internal culture found she had been the target of abuse by senior party officials."

[Post edited 16 Mar 9:37]

Yeah it was racist and misogynistic….but they want his money, so let’s move on 10:17 - Mar 16 with 958 views

GlasgowBlue

Yeah it was racist and misogynistic….but they want his money, so let’s move on 09:35 - Mar 16 by DJR

[Post edited 16 Mar 9:37]

Didn’t Labour offer to restore the whip if she gave a genuine apology and attended training on antisemitism?

The ball is very much in her court for returning to the Labour Party. I think she prefers to be outside the tent pissing in. Just last week she was tweeting praise for George Galloway.

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Yeah it was racist and misogynistic….but they want his money, so let’s move on 10:26 - Mar 16 with 938 views

lowhouseblue

Yeah it was racist and misogynistic….but they want his money, so let’s move on 10:17 - Mar 16 by GlasgowBlue
Didn’t Labour offer to restore the whip if she gave a genuine apology and attended training on antisemitism? The ball is very much in her court for returning to the Labour Party. I think she prefers to be outside the tent pissing in. Just last week she was tweeting praise for George Galloway.

hopefully when jeremy finally sets up his party she'll have a home.

abbotts career is a tragedy - she has huge symbolic significance as the first black female mp but has wasted so much good will. the abuse she receives is completely disgusting, but a career full of ineptitude can't be explained by that alone. that a party seriously put her forward as a potential home secretary is a stain upon it alas.

Yeah it was racist and misogynistic….but they want his money, so let’s move on 11:16 - Mar 16 with 903 views

Pinewoodblue

I couldn’t understand the timing of all this, after all the comments were made 5 years ago. Seems Sky are suggesting Hester is about to make a further donation which I’m sure isn’t a coincidence.

Starmer recently commented he would fight fire with fire.

Suspect he has quite a bit of dirt to throw at the fan as election gets nearer. Going to get very messy.

So easy to find dirt to sling at current Government.

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Yeah it was racist and misogynistic….but they want his money, so let’s move on 12:32 - Mar 16 with 858 views

DJR

Yeah it was racist and misogynistic….but they want his money, so let’s move on 10:17 - Mar 16 by GlasgowBlue
Didn’t Labour offer to restore the whip if she gave a genuine apology and attended training on antisemitism? The ball is very much in her court for returning to the Labour Party. I think she prefers to be outside the tent pissing in. Just last week she was tweeting praise for George Galloway.

It is clear to me that they don't want her back, whatever she does. Hence, the 11 months' delay in her case which appears to be stringing things out to until the election.

She is still a member of the Labour Party.

As it is, we've reached the absurd position where even some Jewish members of the Labour Party have been been asked to undergo antisemitism training.

[Post edited 16 Mar 12:42]

Yeah it was racist and misogynistic….but they want his money, so let’s move on 13:52 - Mar 16 with 787 views

GlasgowBlue

Yeah it was racist and misogynistic….but they want his money, so let’s move on 11:16 - Mar 16 by Pinewoodblue

I'm surprised Dolly hasn't commented on the timing to be honest.

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Yeah it was racist and misogynistic….but they want his money, so let’s move on 13:53 - Mar 16 with 777 views

GlasgowBlue

Yeah it was racist and misogynistic….but they want his money, so let’s move on 12:32 - Mar 16 by DJR
It is clear to me that they don't want her back, whatever she does. Hence, the 11 months' delay in her case which appears to be stringing things out to until the election. She is still a member of the Labour Party. As it is, we've reached the absurd position where even some Jewish members of the Labour Party have been been asked to undergo antisemitism training. [Post edited 16 Mar 12:42]

Why is that absurd? There are Jewish anti semites. All races and religions have people who are self loathing towards their ethnicity.

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Yeah it was racist and misogynistic….but they want his money, so let’s move on 14:12 - Mar 16 with 738 views

DJR

Yeah it was racist and misogynistic….but they want his money, so let’s move on 13:53 - Mar 16 by GlasgowBlue
Why is that absurd? There are Jewish anti semites. All races and religions have people who are self loathing towards their ethnicity.

What is absurd is letting the process drag on for so long, which is against the principles of natural justice. It also hints at interference by the leadership.

If they don't want to restore the Whip, just do it. But I imagine they think that will provoke a reaction from some in the Party.

Another example of brushing things under the carpet.

EDIT: Sorry, I misread your post. I still think it is absurd knowing, as I do, Jenny Manson of Jewish Voice for Labour who is the nicest person one could ever meet but has very strong views on Israel and has even had her own Jewish identity questioned. And the type of person she is and her views are no different to those Jewish people in the Labour Party who have been asked to go undergo antisemitism training.

[Post edited 16 Mar 16:26]

Yeah it was racist and misogynistic….but they want his money, so let’s move on 08:17 - Mar 19 with 480 views

Europablue

Yeah it was racist and misogynistic….but they want his money, so let’s move on 09:10 - Mar 15 by GlasgowBlue

From the trial it was stated that abusers chose their victims for racial reasons. They were “white girls”, “white slags”, “white bitches”. Of course there were the other factors you mentioned and first and foremost they are rapists rather than racists. But it was a factor.

My point was that whilst racism against white peoples does occur, and there are other examples from some inner city schools, it’s not anywhere near the scale of racism against people of colour and is quite a recent phenomenon, whereas racism against POC has been around for centuries, has impacted around the world and has been imbedded in all aspects of a British society.

So the “what about white racism” counter argument in utter nonsense.

It's not a zero sum exercise.
It is good that our society is no longer tolerant of racism against minorities.
In the old days black people just had to take it and get on with it and that is kind of the message being sent to white people who are suffering racial abuse. People talk about the history of racism and correctly point out how badly racial minorities were treated and the attitude is now it's whitey turn to see how it feels. My stance is that we could learn a lesson from the people that came before us and come to the conclusion that discrimination based on race is a bad thing and we shouldn't tolerate racial abuse against anyone.
It's perverse that when referring to the worst case of systemic racism in recent memory some people will say that the victims only happened to be white and they were only abused because they were vulnerable. As you say mentioned, there is a lot of evidence that the grooming gangs were racially motivated in their abuse, and of course it was only vulnerable girls that were abused. Frankly it is sickening that anyone would provide cover for such disgusting and evil acts. The thing that makes my blood boil is the institutional neglect from the police who were well aware of what was going on, but were so sacred of being labelled racist that they facilitated the rapes of hundreds if not thousands of girls over many years.
I can't believe that racism has become so fetishized that people would think that it is worse to be labelled racist for treating a criminal equally to any other (the opposite of discrimination against race) than to know that you had the power to prevent hundreds of girls being raped and tortured.
We should not be keeping a running score or which race has it worse. We should acknowledge history and the impact on the present (it is different to grow up being routinely racially abused, I've been racially abused as an adult and it didn't really bother me because it didn't affect my self-worth, it was just annoying).
The main goal of society in relation to race is to treat racist abuse seriously regardless of the race.

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