| PLC Share Dividends 12:58 - Apr 29 with 4210 views | Zx1988 |
Having read the news article stating that there will be no dividend for PLC shareholders this year, and that any and all future dividends will be paid in their entirety to GameChanger, I was just wondering what others make of this.
For clarity, I have no skin in the game here; I wasn't anywhere near old/well-off enough to buy shares back in 2003.
I get the point of view that those who bought the shares probably saw it as a donation to the club in return for a share certificate, with little/no expectation of the shares ever generating a dividend or being worth anything, but is it right for the PLC board to be making a unanimous decision to that effect without consulting the shareholders?
What about those who may have fallen upon harder times, and had a little hope post-GC that the shares might end up being worth something or bought back?
If they're going to essentially treat the shares as worthless, would the decent thing to do not be to offer to buy them back as a token gesture of thanks? |  |
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| PLC Share Dividends on 13:09 - Apr 29 with 2863 views | nodge_blue |
I bought some shares at a time when i couldn't really afford to do so. But I did because i wanted my football club to survive at a time when there was a real threat it wouldn't.
So i am a bit put out that im no longer considered a real investor.
A shareholder is a shareholder and each share should get a dividend. Thats basics to me. And its in some way a socialist and just system in a capitalist structure. To say these investors are more important than you just seems wrong. |  |
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| PLC Share Dividends on 13:13 - Apr 29 with 2826 views | chicoazul |
The value of your investment can go down as well as up etc
Not to say I disagree with you but I don’t think there is anything anyone can do about it |  |
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| PLC Share Dividends on 13:14 - Apr 29 with 2819 views | Zx1988 |
| PLC Share Dividends on 13:09 - Apr 29 by nodge_blue |
I bought some shares at a time when i couldn't really afford to do so. But I did because i wanted my football club to survive at a time when there was a real threat it wouldn't.
So i am a bit put out that im no longer considered a real investor.
A shareholder is a shareholder and each share should get a dividend. Thats basics to me. And its in some way a socialist and just system in a capitalist structure. To say these investors are more important than you just seems wrong. |
That's what I was thinking.
If GC20 wanted a situation whereby the PLC shares were a non-issue, should they not have offered to purchase them at the same time as the rest of the club?
How does the PLC work in terms of conflicts of interest? Given that the board has been given sole decision-making authority over the PLC, and O'Leary sits both on the PLC board and the Limited Company board, could he not be seen as conflicted here? | |
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| PLC Share Dividends on 13:14 - Apr 29 with 2812 views | Pinewoodblue |
I purchased shares in the ‘runt’ company with no expectation of anything other than keeping the club in existence. Purchased shares for kids was well, so they have certificates.
The new company has kept the old company afloat by covering all expenses for the last 20 years. Our shares are worthless.
Would have been nice if we had been invited to increase our investment and maintain a more significant holding in the club but we all know it wouldn’t have worked, not enough shareholders would be willing / able to increase their investment,
Looking ahead would you be willing to pump money into the club by buying shares, if offered?
Question, Esther than start a new thread. I received my notification by email, there was an attachment which seems to relate to an AGM but it is password protected so can’t open it. Presumably some still make the company post such notices out. Can anyone share the details? |  |
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| PLC Share Dividends on 13:16 - Apr 29 with 2789 views | lazyblue |
I bought shares knowing I would not get any benefit apart from hoping my club could return to glory one day. [Post edited 29 Apr 13:18]
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| PLC Share Dividends on 13:16 - Apr 29 with 2787 views | Pinewoodblue |
| PLC Share Dividends on 13:09 - Apr 29 by nodge_blue |
I bought some shares at a time when i couldn't really afford to do so. But I did because i wanted my football club to survive at a time when there was a real threat it wouldn't.
So i am a bit put out that im no longer considered a real investor.
A shareholder is a shareholder and each share should get a dividend. Thats basics to me. And its in some way a socialist and just system in a capitalist structure. To say these investors are more important than you just seems wrong. |
We are shareholders in a company that owns shares in the club. We are not direct shareholders. | |
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| PLC Share Dividends on 13:16 - Apr 29 with 2782 views | J2BLUE |
Isn't it really just a formality?
Surely people wrote those shares off ages ago? |  |
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| PLC Share Dividends on 13:19 - Apr 29 with 2733 views | Zx1988 |
| PLC Share Dividends on 13:14 - Apr 29 by Pinewoodblue |
I purchased shares in the ‘runt’ company with no expectation of anything other than keeping the club in existence. Purchased shares for kids was well, so they have certificates.
The new company has kept the old company afloat by covering all expenses for the last 20 years. Our shares are worthless.
Would have been nice if we had been invited to increase our investment and maintain a more significant holding in the club but we all know it wouldn’t have worked, not enough shareholders would be willing / able to increase their investment,
Looking ahead would you be willing to pump money into the club by buying shares, if offered?
Question, Esther than start a new thread. I received my notification by email, there was an attachment which seems to relate to an AGM but it is password protected so can’t open it. Presumably some still make the company post such notices out. Can anyone share the details? |
I agree with the assessment you make.
If the scenario was taking place today, rather than 21 years ago, I'd most likely stick my hand in my pocket; 99.99% to keep the club afloat, but also with the small thought in the back of my mind of 'well, you never know what might happen. It might be worth something one day.'
As for a present-day share offering, I'd certainly be interested if the terms/price was right. It'd be a gamble for sure, but the club certainly seems to be on the up. It would have to be on a 'full rights' basis (or however you'd describe it) though, rather than coming with the risk that dividends/value could be co-opted to another entity. | |
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| PLC Share Dividends on 13:21 - Apr 29 with 2705 views | Muncher |
The shares were worthless the moment everyone bought them.
The other factor is that they are diluted to such an extent and will only be diluted further that even if a dividend were to be payable it would likely be at such a small level that by the time you administered it there would be next to nothing left to share out. | | | |
| PLC Share Dividends on 13:24 - Apr 29 with 2662 views | The_Flashing_Smile |
I can see both sides. Those who put money in were brilliant for doing so, but they always knew it was a donation, really, rather than an investment. But equally, there should have been some discussion with shareholders rather than just announcing it and effectively saying "tough luck". I guess the result would have been the same so a discussion was probably a waste of time, but it would have at least looked a bit better.
Maybe the club could offer something that wouldn't cost them anything, like a "Hero Fans" wall with their names and a thank-you for helping the club out in those dark times. I dunno, I have no skin in the game either, but some nice gesture might help. |  |
| Trust the process. Trust Phil. |
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| PLC Share Dividends on 13:26 - Apr 29 with 2607 views | LA_Tractor_Boy |
I've no idea what the legal situation is and I don't have skin in the game either, but morally this seems completely wrong to me.
Surely all PLC shareholders should be offered their money back, now the club no longer needs their investment. | | | |
| PLC Share Dividends on 13:26 - Apr 29 with 2610 views | _clive_baker_ |
| PLC Share Dividends on 13:09 - Apr 29 by nodge_blue |
I bought some shares at a time when i couldn't really afford to do so. But I did because i wanted my football club to survive at a time when there was a real threat it wouldn't.
So i am a bit put out that im no longer considered a real investor.
A shareholder is a shareholder and each share should get a dividend. Thats basics to me. And its in some way a socialist and just system in a capitalist structure. To say these investors are more important than you just seems wrong. |
Main thing for me is the principle I think. My old man bought shares, not with a view to seeing a financial return but as others have said to help the club in a time of need. Subsequent investment has obviously seen a lot of dilution, but the principle still remains to me that whether you own 99% of an entity or 0.00000000000000001% you still have a share. That's not to say you should have voting rights or anything like that, but if a dividend is being paid it makes sense to me that its equitable relative to the shareholding.
The other point I would make is the comms are really poorly written IMO. Too much of their own voice and too much assumption with comments like 'clearly that's great', 'as you know', 'I'm sure you would agree' and 'it goes without saying'. |  | | |
| PLC Share Dividends on 13:29 - Apr 29 with 2581 views | The_Flashing_Smile |
| PLC Share Dividends on 13:26 - Apr 29 by LA_Tractor_Boy |
I've no idea what the legal situation is and I don't have skin in the game either, but morally this seems completely wrong to me.
Surely all PLC shareholders should be offered their money back, now the club no longer needs their investment. |
The problems of more than 20 years ago were nothing to do with Gamechanger, so not sure why they should be reimbursing people. | |
| Trust the process. Trust Phil. |
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| PLC Share Dividends on 13:51 - Apr 29 with 2409 views | Essen_blue |
Is it possible to even trade the shares. Would anyone want to buy the worthless shares, just to own a stake in the club. | | | |
| PLC Share Dividends on 13:56 - Apr 29 with 2368 views | HighgateBlue |
Gamechanger, and ORG, are invested in Town not because they love the Club like us, or because they are Patrician local custodians like the Cobbolds, or loaded Hollywood stars wanting a fun ride like at Wrexham, but because they want to make money.
Every decision they are able to take will be with the goal of giving themselves as much money as possible. In relation to 99% of decisions, particularly whilst we are on the up, our interests will align, happily. But they will only act in fans' interests where it is in their interests. They are able to take the decision they have taken, lawfully, and they clearly calculate that it will not lose them any material amount of goodwill. Fans will be feeling jubilant or distraught in the next few weeks because of what happens on the pitch, and this is probably a good time to let this news seep out.
In reality we're talking small beer here, but I think it's outrageous for the Club to tell fans what they were or were not expecting when they purchased their shares - if anyone has the share prospectus from 2003 or thereabouts I'd love to see it.
“I am sure you’ll agree that none of us, as shareholders in ITPLC, bought our shares in expectation of a future dividend" - in 2004/05 we finished 3rd, 2 points off automatic promotion. West Ham were promoted through the playoffs having got 12 fewer points than us. It goes without saying that we could easily have gone up that year. If we had, we could have established ourselves for a few years as a Prem team. Unlikely, but possible. If that had happened, why on earth should the fans who saved the club and came to own it not receive dividends? The main priority was to save the club and keep it alive, but those who took risks may very well have expected that they would receive a modest financial share in any profits. For the club to tell us otherwise is patronising.
Gamechanger has an exit strategy. I wonder whether we'll love it when it arrives... |  | | |
| PLC Share Dividends on 14:02 - Apr 29 with 2340 views | Uncle_Bulgaria |
Hate to be harsh on those who feel hard-done-by, but the vast majority of clubs never make a profit from which any dividend could ever be paid anyway. I invested because it was necessary at the time and I was fortunate enough to be able to contribute - I never contemplated any sort of return.
Gamechanger deserve a return for what they have done for our club - should they ever choose to take one in the form of a dividend. I doubt they ever will because the present value of their initial investment must be up there with anything they've ever done if we get promoted. |  | | |
| PLC Share Dividends on 14:04 - Apr 29 with 2309 views | Pinewoodblue |
| PLC Share Dividends on 13:56 - Apr 29 by HighgateBlue |
Gamechanger, and ORG, are invested in Town not because they love the Club like us, or because they are Patrician local custodians like the Cobbolds, or loaded Hollywood stars wanting a fun ride like at Wrexham, but because they want to make money.
Every decision they are able to take will be with the goal of giving themselves as much money as possible. In relation to 99% of decisions, particularly whilst we are on the up, our interests will align, happily. But they will only act in fans' interests where it is in their interests. They are able to take the decision they have taken, lawfully, and they clearly calculate that it will not lose them any material amount of goodwill. Fans will be feeling jubilant or distraught in the next few weeks because of what happens on the pitch, and this is probably a good time to let this news seep out.
In reality we're talking small beer here, but I think it's outrageous for the Club to tell fans what they were or were not expecting when they purchased their shares - if anyone has the share prospectus from 2003 or thereabouts I'd love to see it.
“I am sure you’ll agree that none of us, as shareholders in ITPLC, bought our shares in expectation of a future dividend" - in 2004/05 we finished 3rd, 2 points off automatic promotion. West Ham were promoted through the playoffs having got 12 fewer points than us. It goes without saying that we could easily have gone up that year. If we had, we could have established ourselves for a few years as a Prem team. Unlikely, but possible. If that had happened, why on earth should the fans who saved the club and came to own it not receive dividends? The main priority was to save the club and keep it alive, but those who took risks may very well have expected that they would receive a modest financial share in any profits. For the club to tell us otherwise is patronising.
Gamechanger has an exit strategy. I wonder whether we'll love it when it arrives... |
It isn’t the club saying anything. It is the directors of the company we purchased shares in which originally owed 12% of the club. The figure of 1% is only accurate when the new investor has put money into the club. Currently it is just a comitment.. | |
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| PLC Share Dividends on 14:16 - Apr 29 with 2205 views | bluevein |
Will they use the 'cash flow' to leverage the club. Interesting decision just prior to potential promotion. | | | |
| PLC Share Dividends on 14:20 - Apr 29 with 2171 views | Ryorry |
| PLC Share Dividends on 13:09 - Apr 29 by nodge_blue |
I bought some shares at a time when i couldn't really afford to do so. But I did because i wanted my football club to survive at a time when there was a real threat it wouldn't.
So i am a bit put out that im no longer considered a real investor.
A shareholder is a shareholder and each share should get a dividend. Thats basics to me. And its in some way a socialist and just system in a capitalist structure. To say these investors are more important than you just seems wrong. |
Exactly the same for me. |  |
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| PLC Share Dividends on 14:21 - Apr 29 with 2171 views | nrb1985 |
| PLC Share Dividends on 13:09 - Apr 29 by nodge_blue |
I bought some shares at a time when i couldn't really afford to do so. But I did because i wanted my football club to survive at a time when there was a real threat it wouldn't.
So i am a bit put out that im no longer considered a real investor.
A shareholder is a shareholder and each share should get a dividend. Thats basics to me. And its in some way a socialist and just system in a capitalist structure. To say these investors are more important than you just seems wrong. |
Not really true, there are probably preference shares and shares with voting rights attached and some that aren't etc etc.
Bottom line - ITFC is now a growth company and they shouldn't be distributing capital to anyone for now. All dividends should be re invested. I doubt GC will be taking any out to that end.
The point of owning a sports team for these institutional investors isn't to pay yourselves dividends while running it, it's to make A LOT when you sell it. | | | |
| PLC Share Dividends on 14:25 - Apr 29 with 2128 views | PhilTWTD |
| PLC Share Dividends on 14:04 - Apr 29 by Pinewoodblue |
It isn’t the club saying anything. It is the directors of the company we purchased shares in which originally owed 12% of the club. The figure of 1% is only accurate when the new investor has put money into the club. Currently it is just a comitment.. |
Not quite true, the new money is going into Gamechanger, which in turn owns virtually all of the club. |  | | |
| PLC Share Dividends on 14:27 - Apr 29 with 2107 views | Illinoisblue |
Roughly, what was the total amount put in back then? To what extent did they save the club? |  |
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| PLC Share Dividends on 14:29 - Apr 29 with 2104 views | blueoxford |
| PLC Share Dividends on 14:21 - Apr 29 by nrb1985 |
Not really true, there are probably preference shares and shares with voting rights attached and some that aren't etc etc.
Bottom line - ITFC is now a growth company and they shouldn't be distributing capital to anyone for now. All dividends should be re invested. I doubt GC will be taking any out to that end.
The point of owning a sports team for these institutional investors isn't to pay yourselves dividends while running it, it's to make A LOT when you sell it. |
I bought shares at the time to help out my club.
I’m prepared to forego any dividend, so long as :
(1) I can vote against the gradual march to a European Superleague
(2) I can vote to reinstate FA Cup replays
(3) Have the chance to run on the pitch if we get promoted | | | |
| PLC Share Dividends on 14:33 - Apr 29 with 2077 views | nrb1985 |
| PLC Share Dividends on 14:29 - Apr 29 by blueoxford |
I bought shares at the time to help out my club.
I’m prepared to forego any dividend, so long as :
(1) I can vote against the gradual march to a European Superleague
(2) I can vote to reinstate FA Cup replays
(3) Have the chance to run on the pitch if we get promoted |
Should be fine, maybe email Ashton your terms also just so the C suite is clear too? | | | |
| PLC Share Dividends on 14:45 - Apr 29 with 2029 views | Reus30 |
I think with this and the Nodge away stuff, it's just the way things are communicated.
The wording is rather blunt, maybe brutal, maybe condescending. Seems to be a running theme on the last couple of comms issued.
Also side note, I am sure the rest of us who didn't put in at the time, are very thankful those of you that did. |  | | |
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