| Ireland about to put the cat among the pigeons? on 11:53 - May 22 with 1546 views | StokieBlue |
| Ireland about to put the cat among the pigeons? on 11:44 - May 22 by GlasgowBlue |
I don't disagree with the assessment you make in your first paragraph. However, I don't expect mature heads of state to engage in virtue signaling.
So they recognise the Palestinian state. Which government are they recognising? The PA in the West Bank or Hamas in Gaza? Both elected.
Which borders are they recognising?
Regarding your second para, what difference do you think this is going to make on the ground in Gaza? Will Netanyahu reign in the IDF? Will Hamas release the remaining hostages? |
I think it will make very little difference if any on the ground in Gaza, that's not really an argument for not recognising the state though in my opinion.
The IDF will keep attacking and seem ambivalent to whether the hostages are released which Hamas are unlikely to do anyway, especially whilst the IDF press attacks.
From the Irish statement [1]:
"So today, we are saying that we recognise the state of Israel and its right to exist in peace and security within internationally agreed borders.
We equally recognise the state of Palestine and its right to exist in peace and security within internationally agreed borders."
Just because something doesn't have an immediate impact that doesn't mean it's not worthwhile. Currently 142 of the 193 UN member states already recognise Palestine, recent events can make others discuss doing the same without it being virtue signalling. Ireland especially have outlined their own struggles to be recognised as an independent state in their statement.
SB
[1]. https://www.gov.ie/en/speech/b4c3b-recognition-of-the-state-of-palestine-remarks |  |
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| Ireland about to put the cat among the pigeons? on 12:06 - May 22 with 1449 views | GlasgowBlue |
| Ireland about to put the cat among the pigeons? on 11:53 - May 22 by StokieBlue |
I think it will make very little difference if any on the ground in Gaza, that's not really an argument for not recognising the state though in my opinion.
The IDF will keep attacking and seem ambivalent to whether the hostages are released which Hamas are unlikely to do anyway, especially whilst the IDF press attacks.
From the Irish statement [1]:
"So today, we are saying that we recognise the state of Israel and its right to exist in peace and security within internationally agreed borders.
We equally recognise the state of Palestine and its right to exist in peace and security within internationally agreed borders."
Just because something doesn't have an immediate impact that doesn't mean it's not worthwhile. Currently 142 of the 193 UN member states already recognise Palestine, recent events can make others discuss doing the same without it being virtue signalling. Ireland especially have outlined their own struggles to be recognised as an independent state in their statement.
SB
[1]. https://www.gov.ie/en/speech/b4c3b-recognition-of-the-state-of-palestine-remarks |
As I say, I believe that a Palestinian state should be recognised. But I think the timing is poor and rewards Hamas for their atrocities. Which they are already spinning.
Why was a Palestinian state not recognised from the start. Even Palestine's own Arab neighbours, Syria, Lebanon, Transjordan and Egypt not only tried to strangle Israel at birth in 1948. They attempted to annex the Palestinian state. Had they not been defeated by Israel there would be no Palestinian state and no Israel. Just an expanded Syria, Lebanon, Transjordan and Egypt.
And Ryory raises a valid point. By recognising a Palestinian state which is governed by Hamas they are giving legitimacy to their charter which calls for the destruction of Israel and death to all Jews. What next? Legitimise the Houthis? |  |
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| Ireland about to put the cat among the pigeons? on 12:21 - May 22 with 1456 views | StokieBlue |
| Ireland about to put the cat among the pigeons? on 12:06 - May 22 by GlasgowBlue |
As I say, I believe that a Palestinian state should be recognised. But I think the timing is poor and rewards Hamas for their atrocities. Which they are already spinning.
Why was a Palestinian state not recognised from the start. Even Palestine's own Arab neighbours, Syria, Lebanon, Transjordan and Egypt not only tried to strangle Israel at birth in 1948. They attempted to annex the Palestinian state. Had they not been defeated by Israel there would be no Palestinian state and no Israel. Just an expanded Syria, Lebanon, Transjordan and Egypt.
And Ryory raises a valid point. By recognising a Palestinian state which is governed by Hamas they are giving legitimacy to their charter which calls for the destruction of Israel and death to all Jews. What next? Legitimise the Houthis? |
So essentially your argument is that because something wasn't recognised nearly 80 years ago it shouldn't be recognised now? If we extend that logic to other countries then the British Empire would still paint the globe in pink.
I understand why you see it as a reward for Hamas but as per my previous post, I don't think it would have happened without Israel's disproportionate response.
"And Ryory raises a valid point. By recognising a Palestinian state which is governed by Hamas they are giving legitimacy to their charter which calls for the destruction of Israel and death to all Jews. What next? Legitimise the Houthis?"
Did you read the statement? They haven't endorsed the government or legitimised any of their views, they have recognised the borders of the state. Those are two different things. We recognise the borders of countries without recognising the government in power. Their statement also makes it clear that they support the right of Israel to exist, that they condemn the attacks on the 7th and that both states need to follow international law.
SB | |
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| Ireland about to put the cat among the pigeons? on 12:24 - May 22 with 1443 views | giant_stow |
I'm thoroughly confused by this personally, but thanks to all in this thread for good quality debate so far - an educational read. |  |
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| Ireland about to put the cat among the pigeons? on 12:31 - May 22 with 1421 views | leitrimblue |
The success of repugnant Isreali terrorist acts such as the Sargents affair of course led to British troops pulling out. Which arguably in turn lead to the ethnic cleansing of the Nakba the following year.
You could even argue that the zionists didn't even really have a relationship of conflict with the British. They just needed um outta the way so the could have a unobstructed go at ethnic cleansing the indigenous Palestinian population |  | | |
| Ireland about to put the cat among the pigeons? on 12:36 - May 22 with 1371 views | GlasgowBlue |
| Ireland about to put the cat among the pigeons? on 12:21 - May 22 by StokieBlue |
So essentially your argument is that because something wasn't recognised nearly 80 years ago it shouldn't be recognised now? If we extend that logic to other countries then the British Empire would still paint the globe in pink.
I understand why you see it as a reward for Hamas but as per my previous post, I don't think it would have happened without Israel's disproportionate response.
"And Ryory raises a valid point. By recognising a Palestinian state which is governed by Hamas they are giving legitimacy to their charter which calls for the destruction of Israel and death to all Jews. What next? Legitimise the Houthis?"
Did you read the statement? They haven't endorsed the government or legitimised any of their views, they have recognised the borders of the state. Those are two different things. We recognise the borders of countries without recognising the government in power. Their statement also makes it clear that they support the right of Israel to exist, that they condemn the attacks on the 7th and that both states need to follow international law.
SB |
My argument is that the timing is poor and it's an exercise in virtue signalling. They have had 76 years to recognise a Palestinian state. They have chosen to do so just months after Hamas raped, murdered, mutilated and decapitated innocent people. It sends out the wrong message.
The time to do this is when Hamas have been wiped out and we can move on to a peaceful and permanent solution.
Edit. Re your final para, what borders have they recognised? [Post edited 22 May 12:37]
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| Ireland about to put the cat among the pigeons? on 12:42 - May 22 with 1384 views | Eireannach_gorm |
| Ireland about to put the cat among the pigeons? on 12:36 - May 22 by GlasgowBlue |
My argument is that the timing is poor and it's an exercise in virtue signalling. They have had 76 years to recognise a Palestinian state. They have chosen to do so just months after Hamas raped, murdered, mutilated and decapitated innocent people. It sends out the wrong message.
The time to do this is when Hamas have been wiped out and we can move on to a peaceful and permanent solution.
Edit. Re your final para, what borders have they recognised? [Post edited 22 May 12:37]
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https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ireland%E2%80%93Palestine_relations#:~:text=In%201 |  | | |
| Ireland about to put the cat among the pigeons? on 12:44 - May 22 with 1366 views | phillymark |
| Ireland about to put the cat among the pigeons? on 09:27 - May 22 by NthQldITFC |
Plus the whole world should have recognised by default the right to statehood of those poor repressed people before October the 7th, in fact way, way, way before all of that. |
Wasn't a Palestinian state recognised in 1947? Who rejected it?
I support a two state solution. Always have done. |  | | |
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| Ireland about to put the cat among the pigeons? on 12:49 - May 22 with 1336 views | footers |
| Ireland about to put the cat among the pigeons? on 12:44 - May 22 by phillymark |
Wasn't a Palestinian state recognised in 1947? Who rejected it?
I support a two state solution. Always have done. |
I see. You just want to kill a lot of the people in the other state. |  |
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| Ireland about to put the cat among the pigeons? on 13:02 - May 22 with 1290 views | StokieBlue |
| Ireland about to put the cat among the pigeons? on 12:36 - May 22 by GlasgowBlue |
My argument is that the timing is poor and it's an exercise in virtue signalling. They have had 76 years to recognise a Palestinian state. They have chosen to do so just months after Hamas raped, murdered, mutilated and decapitated innocent people. It sends out the wrong message.
The time to do this is when Hamas have been wiped out and we can move on to a peaceful and permanent solution.
Edit. Re your final para, what borders have they recognised? [Post edited 22 May 12:37]
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To be honest GB it feels like we are going in circles so I will reply and then you'll have your right to reply.
"My argument is that the timing is poor and it's an exercise in virtue signalling. They have had 76 years to recognise a Palestinian state. They have chosen to do so just months after Hamas raped, murdered, mutilated and decapitated innocent people. It sends out the wrong message."
As I said previously, I understand why you might view it the way you do but Isn't it possible that the ongoing conflict (now 7 months in) has focused the minds of many who may not have been looking at this previously? You see it as rewarding Hamas but we wouldn't be here 7 months and nearly 40,000 deaths later and no end in sight if Israel hadn't responded in the manner they had.
If everything has to be based on reward or punishment for actions should the international community now be looking to punish Israel for their actions? Would that also be virtue signalling? As I said, the statement (which you should read) clearly condemns the actions of Hamas.
"The time to do this is when Hamas have been wiped out and we can move on to a peaceful and permanent solution."
When is that going to be and will there be any Palestinian state left to recognise when the IDF have finished? Their statement clearly condemns Hamas so why do they need to wait to recognise some borders?
"Edit. Re your final para, what borders have they recognised?"
I've already stated exactly what they said in their statement, you're fully capable of going to look up what those borders are.
SB | |
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| Ireland about to put the cat among the pigeons? on 13:10 - May 22 with 1250 views | Eireannach_gorm |
| Ireland about to put the cat among the pigeons? on 12:06 - May 22 by GlasgowBlue |
As I say, I believe that a Palestinian state should be recognised. But I think the timing is poor and rewards Hamas for their atrocities. Which they are already spinning.
Why was a Palestinian state not recognised from the start. Even Palestine's own Arab neighbours, Syria, Lebanon, Transjordan and Egypt not only tried to strangle Israel at birth in 1948. They attempted to annex the Palestinian state. Had they not been defeated by Israel there would be no Palestinian state and no Israel. Just an expanded Syria, Lebanon, Transjordan and Egypt.
And Ryory raises a valid point. By recognising a Palestinian state which is governed by Hamas they are giving legitimacy to their charter which calls for the destruction of Israel and death to all Jews. What next? Legitimise the Houthis? |
Think you are being a a little Israel centric in your view of this. Arab states had no interest in Palestine until Israel took possession of it ( They still don't really care about the Palestinians ).
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| Ireland about to put the cat among the pigeons? on 13:13 - May 22 with 1243 views | Cheltenham_Blue |
| Ireland about to put the cat among the pigeons? on 12:06 - May 22 by GlasgowBlue |
As I say, I believe that a Palestinian state should be recognised. But I think the timing is poor and rewards Hamas for their atrocities. Which they are already spinning.
Why was a Palestinian state not recognised from the start. Even Palestine's own Arab neighbours, Syria, Lebanon, Transjordan and Egypt not only tried to strangle Israel at birth in 1948. They attempted to annex the Palestinian state. Had they not been defeated by Israel there would be no Palestinian state and no Israel. Just an expanded Syria, Lebanon, Transjordan and Egypt.
And Ryory raises a valid point. By recognising a Palestinian state which is governed by Hamas they are giving legitimacy to their charter which calls for the destruction of Israel and death to all Jews. What next? Legitimise the Houthis? |
Israel must separate Hamas from ordinary Palestinians in the same way that most of us separate the actions of the Israeli Government and the citizens of Israel.
They are not the same, and the citizens of Palestine have no power to overthrow Hamas, even less now that the infrastructure of Gaza is all but destroyed.
If Israel do not make serious moves to protect innocent Palestinians, more countries will begin to recognise the state of Palestine. |  |
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| Ireland about to put the cat among the pigeons? on 16:31 - May 23 with 998 views | Eireannach_gorm |
Israel doubling down.
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| Ireland about to put the cat among the pigeons? on 16:36 - May 23 with 962 views | GlasgowBlue |
| Ireland about to put the cat among the pigeons? on 16:31 - May 23 by Eireannach_gorm |
Israel doubling down.
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| Ireland about to put the cat among the pigeons? on 16:40 - May 23 with 976 views | footers |
| Ireland about to put the cat among the pigeons? on 16:31 - May 23 by Eireannach_gorm |
Israel doubling down.
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No worries, mate. Happy to help. [Post edited 23 May 16:41]
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| Ireland about to put the cat among the pigeons? on 18:36 - May 23 with 920 views | footers |
I believe it's called collateral damage. | |
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| Ireland about to put the cat among the pigeons? on 19:14 - May 23 with 859 views | GlasgowBlue |
Benjamin Netanyahu is an evil far right c**t propped up by ultra religious terrorist supporters and deserves to stand trial in the Hague for war crimes. I'm not really sure what point you are trying to make or how this counters the point Salman Rushdie was making. | |
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| Ireland about to put the cat among the pigeons? on 19:14 - May 23 with 875 views | noggin |
| Ireland about to put the cat among the pigeons? on 18:36 - May 23 by footers |
I believe it's called collateral damage. |
They were clearly shielding terrorists. |  |
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| Ireland about to put the cat among the pigeons? on 19:21 - May 23 with 854 views | Tonytown |
| Ireland about to put the cat among the pigeons? on 09:11 - May 22 by GlasgowBlue |
I guess terrorism pays then.
I strongly believe in a two state solution with the formation of a Palestinian state. Further more, I believe in a a Palestinian state within the pre 1967 borders, which would require Israel to give back land and demolish illegal settlements. But I don’t think this can happen until Hamas have been completely obliterated. Hamas is the elected government of Gaza. Hamas committed some of the worst atrocities ever seen on October 7th. Seven months later I don’t think we should be rewarding rape, murder, decapitation and mutilation with statehood.
Free a Palestine from Hamas then recognise Palestine. In that order. |
GB an apologist for years of oppression by Israel.
No surprise at all | | | |
| Ireland about to put the cat among the pigeons? on 19:40 - May 23 with 823 views | BanksterDebtSlave |
| Ireland about to put the cat among the pigeons? on 19:14 - May 23 by GlasgowBlue |
Benjamin Netanyahu is an evil far right c**t propped up by ultra religious terrorist supporters and deserves to stand trial in the Hague for war crimes. I'm not really sure what point you are trying to make or how this counters the point Salman Rushdie was making. |
And yet here you are supporting his response to the Oct 7th atrocity again and again....ceasefire months ago....well, before it even started in fact! |  |
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| Ireland about to put the cat among the pigeons? on 19:53 - May 23 with 781 views | GlasgowBlue |
| Ireland about to put the cat among the pigeons? on 19:40 - May 23 by BanksterDebtSlave |
And yet here you are supporting his response to the Oct 7th atrocity again and again....ceasefire months ago....well, before it even started in fact! |
I said that Hamas needed to be wiped out qnd there would never be peace or a two state solution until that has been achieved.. Where did I say I supported the way Netanyahu is attempting to do so? In fact I've said quite the opposite. On numerous occasions. | |
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| Ireland about to put the cat among the pigeons? on 23:35 - May 23 with 681 views | Eireannach_gorm |
| Ireland about to put the cat among the pigeons? on 19:14 - May 23 by GlasgowBlue |
Benjamin Netanyahu is an evil far right c**t propped up by ultra religious terrorist supporters and deserves to stand trial in the Hague for war crimes. I'm not really sure what point you are trying to make or how this counters the point Salman Rushdie was making. |
I think it's fairly obvious that my point is that successive Israeli governments have sponsored Hamas. If they had not done so there would have been a chance to negotiate with the PLO.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indirect_Israeli_support_for_Hamas | | | |
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