| The 'special military operation' continues to reach new lows. on 17:10 - Jun 26 with 6152 views | Eireannach_gorm |
| The 'special military operation' continues to reach new lows. on 09:09 - Jun 26 by Churchman |
So Russia has its victory in east Ukraine. And what a big victory it is. They’ve really made best use of their advantages in artillery and heavy weapons. Russia is now encircling and grinding up the remains of poor Ukraine’s forces in that area and will go onto the next stage, whatever direction that takes.
https://uk.yahoo.com/news/russia-strikes-kyiv-troops-consolidate-063118275.html
Meanwhile, the limp, weak west will dribble on at a meaningless G7 conference, all shiny suits plus useless Johnson in his tramps bin bag and sparkly pin badges. They’ll wear ready smiles and serious looks in equal measure and talk while looking at their watches.
The windy surrender brigade Macron and Scholtz will be worrying about their next call with Putin and how best to beg. Excruciatingly weak old Biden will be staring at his notes trying to work out where he is and whether he can make it to the toilet on time. Johnson checking where the fridge to hide in is and worrying about getting a job for his latest wife and so it goes on. Shambles and empty promises.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-61904360
Poor old Zelenski. He’s been left in the lurch by the west. He’s been left to conveniently provide an honourable face to cover the slow death of his country.
Looking at the mess, it’s not hard to see why that animal Putin is doing as he pleases. I suspect that the fence sitters China, India, Africa and others will now fall in more openly with the strongman. Especially given the success of Russia’s grain blockade that’s blamed on western sanctions. [Post edited 26 Jun 2022 9:14]
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One thing that Bafoon Boris and incontinent Biden have got right is that if you don't stand up to Putin there will be no peace because empire building is only prevented by force not negotiation. |  | |  |
| The 'special military operation' continues to reach new lows. on 18:24 - Jun 26 with 6122 views | Churchman |
| The 'special military operation' continues to reach new lows. on 17:10 - Jun 26 by Eireannach_gorm |
One thing that Bafoon Boris and incontinent Biden have got right is that if you don't stand up to Putin there will be no peace because empire building is only prevented by force not negotiation. |
Sadly, you are right. But with sad sack Johnson and weak old Biden, it’s little more than words while two important political players and Italy are still wedded to appeasement. Biden was praising Scholz today. I know he is hosting this in beautiful Bavaria (I’ve been there quite a few times - lovely part of the world, great people), but I did wonder if Joe’s nurse had handed him the wrong notes for a laugh. Its this division that Putin has and will continue to exploit. Perhaps the G7 should call themselves the invertebrates. |  | | |
| The 'special military operation' continues to reach new lows. on 18:57 - Jun 26 with 6105 views | PhilTWTD |
| The 'special military operation' continues to reach new lows. on 09:09 - Jun 26 by Churchman |
So Russia has its victory in east Ukraine. And what a big victory it is. They’ve really made best use of their advantages in artillery and heavy weapons. Russia is now encircling and grinding up the remains of poor Ukraine’s forces in that area and will go onto the next stage, whatever direction that takes.
https://uk.yahoo.com/news/russia-strikes-kyiv-troops-consolidate-063118275.html
Meanwhile, the limp, weak west will dribble on at a meaningless G7 conference, all shiny suits plus useless Johnson in his tramps bin bag and sparkly pin badges. They’ll wear ready smiles and serious looks in equal measure and talk while looking at their watches.
The windy surrender brigade Macron and Scholtz will be worrying about their next call with Putin and how best to beg. Excruciatingly weak old Biden will be staring at his notes trying to work out where he is and whether he can make it to the toilet on time. Johnson checking where the fridge to hide in is and worrying about getting a job for his latest wife and so it goes on. Shambles and empty promises.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-61904360
Poor old Zelenski. He’s been left in the lurch by the west. He’s been left to conveniently provide an honourable face to cover the slow death of his country.
Looking at the mess, it’s not hard to see why that animal Putin is doing as he pleases. I suspect that the fence sitters China, India, Africa and others will now fall in more openly with the strongman. Especially given the success of Russia’s grain blockade that’s blamed on western sanctions. [Post edited 26 Jun 2022 9:14]
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Think you rather overstate the importance of the 'victory' in Severodonetsk. From the analysis I've read the Russians have made little real progress for weeks while losing equipment at unsustainable levels as the Ukrainians are receiving and learning to use Western weapons.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2022/06/25/ukraine-russia-balance-of-forces
This post has been edited by an administrator |  | | |
| The 'special military operation' continues to reach new lows. on 20:59 - Jun 26 with 6054 views | Trequartista |
| The 'special military operation' continues to reach new lows. on 09:09 - Jun 26 by Churchman |
So Russia has its victory in east Ukraine. And what a big victory it is. They’ve really made best use of their advantages in artillery and heavy weapons. Russia is now encircling and grinding up the remains of poor Ukraine’s forces in that area and will go onto the next stage, whatever direction that takes.
https://uk.yahoo.com/news/russia-strikes-kyiv-troops-consolidate-063118275.html
Meanwhile, the limp, weak west will dribble on at a meaningless G7 conference, all shiny suits plus useless Johnson in his tramps bin bag and sparkly pin badges. They’ll wear ready smiles and serious looks in equal measure and talk while looking at their watches.
The windy surrender brigade Macron and Scholtz will be worrying about their next call with Putin and how best to beg. Excruciatingly weak old Biden will be staring at his notes trying to work out where he is and whether he can make it to the toilet on time. Johnson checking where the fridge to hide in is and worrying about getting a job for his latest wife and so it goes on. Shambles and empty promises.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-61904360
Poor old Zelenski. He’s been left in the lurch by the west. He’s been left to conveniently provide an honourable face to cover the slow death of his country.
Looking at the mess, it’s not hard to see why that animal Putin is doing as he pleases. I suspect that the fence sitters China, India, Africa and others will now fall in more openly with the strongman. Especially given the success of Russia’s grain blockade that’s blamed on western sanctions. [Post edited 26 Jun 2022 9:14]
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At least the West have provided some support. There are national representatives of billions of people on this planet at the UN who didn't even condemn it and have done nothing. If the world was truly against Russia this wouldn't be happening, but the world isn't against Russia, only the West. [Post edited 26 Jun 2022 21:00]
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| The 'special military operation' continues to reach new lows. on 00:00 - Jun 27 with 5988 views | Eireannach_gorm |
| The 'special military operation' continues to reach new lows. on 18:24 - Jun 26 by Churchman |
Sadly, you are right. But with sad sack Johnson and weak old Biden, it’s little more than words while two important political players and Italy are still wedded to appeasement. Biden was praising Scholz today. I know he is hosting this in beautiful Bavaria (I’ve been there quite a few times - lovely part of the world, great people), but I did wonder if Joe’s nurse had handed him the wrong notes for a laugh. Its this division that Putin has and will continue to exploit. Perhaps the G7 should call themselves the invertebrates. |
This is what Putin thinks of the G7. This is a very deliberate act to intimidate.
(Not sure if this link will work)
https://www.rte.ie/bosco/components/player/iframe.html?clipid=22113422& | | | |
| The 'special military operation' continues to reach new lows. on 00:14 - Jun 27 with 5981 views | Churchman |
The link worked perfectly thanks. You are right about Putin.
Seeing a childrens play area riddled with shrapnel: just awful. It’s the contrast between innocence and the evil that creatures like Putin bring. | | | |
| The 'special military operation' continues to reach new lows. on 07:27 - Jun 27 with 5898 views | Swansea_Blue |
There’s certainly plenty of people who see Germany’s hesitance to respond militarily as a weakness and a stick to beat them with, so lessons don’t seem to have been forgotten (or at best their position isn’t understood). |  |
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| The 'special military operation' continues to reach new lows. on 08:20 - Jun 27 with 5869 views | Churchman |
This is fascinating. Two things in particular struck me. Firstly Chamberlain says:
‘However much we may sympathize with a small nation confronted by a big and powerful neighbor, we cannot in all circumstances undertake to involve the whole British Empire in war simply on her account. If we have to fight it must be on larger issues than that’
So basically, Czechoslovakia wasn’t worth going to war for. It was dispensable; unimportant in the face of the long shadow of WW1. A sacrifice worth making. The parallel to today is dreadfully similar. Ukraine is dispensable. Its why I believe the same applies to the Baltics states, Moldova, possibly even Poland in the long term.
I don’t hold any store in Nato guarantees any more than Putin does. Would Biden commit to war over, say, Latvia? A country that looks part of Russia on the map? I suspect 99.9% of Americans think Latvia is a posh coffee. Not something to fight for.
The problem with appeasement is failure to see the big picture. Chamberlain utterly failed to see it. He was a good man desperate to avoid the horrors of 1914-18. Fully understandable. Biden is a good man desperate to avoid conflict with Russia. Fully understandable. In being so obvious he has, in my view, emboldened the ogre just as EU policy to enmesh critical economic elements that Putin controls has. They are neutered.
Selling out Czechoslovakia in 1938 was disgraceful on all counts. Benes wasn’t even allowed in the room when the deal was struck.
Chamberlain asks:
‘ Does the experience of the Great War and the years that followed it give us reasonable hope that, if some new war started, that would end war any more than the last one did?’
This question in terms of Germany was of course answered 6 years later. Yes. The failure of WW1 was that the allies failed to see through the victory and smash Germany. In allowing the remains of its army to survive, despite them being on the point of complete collapse, it fostered the myth in Germany that they were never defeated, but sold out.
In summary, yes, in terms of appeasement I believe history is repeating itself. I understand why there is a desire to the soles of the feet to avoid conflict with Putin. He is a crazy creature and to face him and if necessary others down who threaten peoples’ freedom carries enormous risk. But the lesson of history and this interesting paper is that there are two choice. Give him what he wants and keep on giving or face him down. Putin won’t stop. [Post edited 27 Jun 2022 8:22]
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| The 'special military operation' continues to reach new lows. on 15:43 - Jun 27 with 5785 views | Eireannach_gorm |
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| The 'special military operation' continues to reach new lows. on 17:44 - Jun 27 with 5768 views | Eireannach_gorm |
| The 'special military operation' continues to reach new lows. on 09:09 - Jun 26 by Churchman |
So Russia has its victory in east Ukraine. And what a big victory it is. They’ve really made best use of their advantages in artillery and heavy weapons. Russia is now encircling and grinding up the remains of poor Ukraine’s forces in that area and will go onto the next stage, whatever direction that takes.
https://uk.yahoo.com/news/russia-strikes-kyiv-troops-consolidate-063118275.html
Meanwhile, the limp, weak west will dribble on at a meaningless G7 conference, all shiny suits plus useless Johnson in his tramps bin bag and sparkly pin badges. They’ll wear ready smiles and serious looks in equal measure and talk while looking at their watches.
The windy surrender brigade Macron and Scholtz will be worrying about their next call with Putin and how best to beg. Excruciatingly weak old Biden will be staring at his notes trying to work out where he is and whether he can make it to the toilet on time. Johnson checking where the fridge to hide in is and worrying about getting a job for his latest wife and so it goes on. Shambles and empty promises.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-61904360
Poor old Zelenski. He’s been left in the lurch by the west. He’s been left to conveniently provide an honourable face to cover the slow death of his country.
Looking at the mess, it’s not hard to see why that animal Putin is doing as he pleases. I suspect that the fence sitters China, India, Africa and others will now fall in more openly with the strongman. Especially given the success of Russia’s grain blockade that’s blamed on western sanctions. [Post edited 26 Jun 2022 9:14]
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| The 'special military operation' continues to reach new lows. on 18:00 - Jun 27 with 5744 views | Eireannach_gorm |
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| The 'special military operation' continues to reach new lows. on 18:59 - Jun 27 with 5689 views | Nthsuffolkblue |
| The 'special military operation' continues to reach new lows. on 08:20 - Jun 27 by Churchman |
This is fascinating. Two things in particular struck me. Firstly Chamberlain says:
‘However much we may sympathize with a small nation confronted by a big and powerful neighbor, we cannot in all circumstances undertake to involve the whole British Empire in war simply on her account. If we have to fight it must be on larger issues than that’
So basically, Czechoslovakia wasn’t worth going to war for. It was dispensable; unimportant in the face of the long shadow of WW1. A sacrifice worth making. The parallel to today is dreadfully similar. Ukraine is dispensable. Its why I believe the same applies to the Baltics states, Moldova, possibly even Poland in the long term.
I don’t hold any store in Nato guarantees any more than Putin does. Would Biden commit to war over, say, Latvia? A country that looks part of Russia on the map? I suspect 99.9% of Americans think Latvia is a posh coffee. Not something to fight for.
The problem with appeasement is failure to see the big picture. Chamberlain utterly failed to see it. He was a good man desperate to avoid the horrors of 1914-18. Fully understandable. Biden is a good man desperate to avoid conflict with Russia. Fully understandable. In being so obvious he has, in my view, emboldened the ogre just as EU policy to enmesh critical economic elements that Putin controls has. They are neutered.
Selling out Czechoslovakia in 1938 was disgraceful on all counts. Benes wasn’t even allowed in the room when the deal was struck.
Chamberlain asks:
‘ Does the experience of the Great War and the years that followed it give us reasonable hope that, if some new war started, that would end war any more than the last one did?’
This question in terms of Germany was of course answered 6 years later. Yes. The failure of WW1 was that the allies failed to see through the victory and smash Germany. In allowing the remains of its army to survive, despite them being on the point of complete collapse, it fostered the myth in Germany that they were never defeated, but sold out.
In summary, yes, in terms of appeasement I believe history is repeating itself. I understand why there is a desire to the soles of the feet to avoid conflict with Putin. He is a crazy creature and to face him and if necessary others down who threaten peoples’ freedom carries enormous risk. But the lesson of history and this interesting paper is that there are two choice. Give him what he wants and keep on giving or face him down. Putin won’t stop. [Post edited 27 Jun 2022 8:22]
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Forgive my ignorance of history, but isn't there a difference in that we are arming Ukraine? I understand there are arguments that we could be doing more and that other countries are not doing as much, but it is more than was done in 1938 isn't it? |  |
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| The 'special military operation' continues to reach new lows. on 19:00 - Jun 27 with 5688 views | Eireannach_gorm |
| The 'special military operation' continues to reach new lows. on 18:00 - Jun 27 by Eireannach_gorm |
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[Post edited 27 Jun 2022 19:02]
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| The 'special military operation' continues to reach new lows. on 19:08 - Jun 27 with 5669 views | Nthsuffolkblue |
| The 'special military operation' continues to reach new lows. on 19:00 - Jun 27 by Eireannach_gorm |
[Post edited 27 Jun 2022 19:02]
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I am certain those comments do not represent every Russian. I am also sure there is a lot of propaganda and misinformation that they are being fed (much more than we will be).
I saw a lady with a Z on her back the other day. I would have asked her why if I felt I had a chance to (perhaps I just didn't have enough guts to). She does not represent the views of everyone in the UK (any more than you and I do).
Putin and Russia need to be stood up against and need to be stopped. However, be careful before you state all Russians. | |
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| The 'special military operation' continues to reach new lows. on 19:18 - Jun 27 with 5665 views | Eireannach_gorm |
| The 'special military operation' continues to reach new lows. on 19:08 - Jun 27 by Nthsuffolkblue |
I am certain those comments do not represent every Russian. I am also sure there is a lot of propaganda and misinformation that they are being fed (much more than we will be).
I saw a lady with a Z on her back the other day. I would have asked her why if I felt I had a chance to (perhaps I just didn't have enough guts to). She does not represent the views of everyone in the UK (any more than you and I do).
Putin and Russia need to be stood up against and need to be stopped. However, be careful before you state all Russians. |
I think the point is that this is a Ukranians view of Russia and Russian people. It's not Putin that is bombing them but Russians ( and separatists ).
The 'Z' symbol indicates support for the war so you did not have to have a discussion with that person to know their views.
Clearly not all Russians support the war but they are very mute ( for obvious reasons ). | | | |
| The 'special military operation' continues to reach new lows. on 19:24 - Jun 27 with 5642 views | Nthsuffolkblue |
| The 'special military operation' continues to reach new lows. on 19:18 - Jun 27 by Eireannach_gorm |
I think the point is that this is a Ukranians view of Russia and Russian people. It's not Putin that is bombing them but Russians ( and separatists ).
The 'Z' symbol indicates support for the war so you did not have to have a discussion with that person to know their views.
Clearly not all Russians support the war but they are very mute ( for obvious reasons ). |
I am not sure. Judging from the general overall appearance, I suspect the lady in question had severe learning difficulties. I would have liked to have known her logic. I suspect that at some point she will meet someone who won't give any benefit of the doubt and will leave her wishing she hadn't worn it. I guess there is a large degree of contrariness to popular opinion rather like conspiracy theories/anti-vax/4G, etc generally. | |
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| The 'special military operation' continues to reach new lows. on 19:49 - Jun 27 with 5631 views | Eireannach_gorm |
Where the missiles came from that hit Kyiv
The outcome of one hitting an apartment block.
Anton Gerashchenko’s twitter account is very informative and enlightening. | | | |
| The 'special military operation' continues to reach new lows. on 23:44 - Jun 27 with 5577 views | Churchman |
| The 'special military operation' continues to reach new lows. on 18:59 - Jun 27 by Nthsuffolkblue |
Forgive my ignorance of history, but isn't there a difference in that we are arming Ukraine? I understand there are arguments that we could be doing more and that other countries are not doing as much, but it is more than was done in 1938 isn't it? |
No ignorance of history at all NSBlue. The Americans in particular are supplying kit. U.K. and some others the best they can too. U.K. and others also have been doing a lot of training since the stealing of Crimea in 2014. None of this sort of thing happened before WW2. Countries and alliances just didn’t work that way.
The similarities are in the approach, particularly prior to Feb this year. Germany, France, Italy’s approach to put their faith in economic ties has proven a disaster. The weak response to Putin’s actions in Crimea and other places = appeasement. The shooting down of an airliner, poisoning of people in a foreign country with zero credible response = appeasement.
Laundering dirty money and taking donations to a party, particularly after Salisbury - what’s that about? There ought to be an enquiry. Disgusting.
Biden virtually inviting Putin to take a chunk of Ukraine and Scholtz/Macron’s policy of rewarding Putin if he will stop = appeasement. Finding ways around sanctions to sell military stuff after 2014, the same.
You are right, there are some differences from 1938 to today, but in my view the basic policy of the west, including letting it’s own military decay in the way it has, bears some comparison to Chamberlain’s words. He was an honourable man, but peace at any price with a piece of work like Hitler or Putin? I don’t think so.
It isn’t much known, but when Hitler made his first move and re occupied the Rhineland, he was prepared to turn around and pack in the idea at the first sign of opposition. His military was all show no substance at that time. France could have crushed Germany easily then, even with their moribund, rotting army. There was no appetite for it. Just tiredness and a desire for it all to go away.
These are just musings on my part - please challenge me if you think I’m wrong. I probably am and debate s never bad! | | | |
| The 'special military operation' continues to reach new lows. on 00:04 - Jun 28 with 5573 views | jeera |
| The 'special military operation' continues to reach new lows. on 23:44 - Jun 27 by Churchman |
No ignorance of history at all NSBlue. The Americans in particular are supplying kit. U.K. and some others the best they can too. U.K. and others also have been doing a lot of training since the stealing of Crimea in 2014. None of this sort of thing happened before WW2. Countries and alliances just didn’t work that way.
The similarities are in the approach, particularly prior to Feb this year. Germany, France, Italy’s approach to put their faith in economic ties has proven a disaster. The weak response to Putin’s actions in Crimea and other places = appeasement. The shooting down of an airliner, poisoning of people in a foreign country with zero credible response = appeasement.
Laundering dirty money and taking donations to a party, particularly after Salisbury - what’s that about? There ought to be an enquiry. Disgusting.
Biden virtually inviting Putin to take a chunk of Ukraine and Scholtz/Macron’s policy of rewarding Putin if he will stop = appeasement. Finding ways around sanctions to sell military stuff after 2014, the same.
You are right, there are some differences from 1938 to today, but in my view the basic policy of the west, including letting it’s own military decay in the way it has, bears some comparison to Chamberlain’s words. He was an honourable man, but peace at any price with a piece of work like Hitler or Putin? I don’t think so.
It isn’t much known, but when Hitler made his first move and re occupied the Rhineland, he was prepared to turn around and pack in the idea at the first sign of opposition. His military was all show no substance at that time. France could have crushed Germany easily then, even with their moribund, rotting army. There was no appetite for it. Just tiredness and a desire for it all to go away.
These are just musings on my part - please challenge me if you think I’m wrong. I probably am and debate s never bad! |
As you say...
Russia has been testing us and trying us for some time as we know in every way feasible.
But we did eff-all. Rather than address each issue as it came along, there was instead a bit of fuss and then business as usual.
Why, following the poisonings, did we not begin to implement the measures that we see fit now? Why did we not try to force their hand with sanctions?
Where was our leadership?
Much of our world leading support now, whether some people like to accept it or not, is for show. To prove to the world we're still relevant, to show off to the electorate how tough our leaders are. It's nonsense of course and at the taxpayers' expense as always.
And in case some idiot gets the wrong idea and asks if I believe we should not do all we can to support Ukraine, we absolutely should. I want us to do more but there we go.
Let's just stop pretending it's Johnson et al who are somehow footing the bill. I'm tired of these scumbags trying to appear as saviours whilst the Ukrainians die in their thousands.
We've had years to act and we've done nothing. |  |
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| The 'special military operation' continues to reach new lows. on 09:33 - Jun 28 with 5491 views | Churchman |
| The 'special military operation' continues to reach new lows. on 00:04 - Jun 28 by jeera |
As you say...
Russia has been testing us and trying us for some time as we know in every way feasible.
But we did eff-all. Rather than address each issue as it came along, there was instead a bit of fuss and then business as usual.
Why, following the poisonings, did we not begin to implement the measures that we see fit now? Why did we not try to force their hand with sanctions?
Where was our leadership?
Much of our world leading support now, whether some people like to accept it or not, is for show. To prove to the world we're still relevant, to show off to the electorate how tough our leaders are. It's nonsense of course and at the taxpayers' expense as always.
And in case some idiot gets the wrong idea and asks if I believe we should not do all we can to support Ukraine, we absolutely should. I want us to do more but there we go.
Let's just stop pretending it's Johnson et al who are somehow footing the bill. I'm tired of these scumbags trying to appear as saviours whilst the Ukrainians die in their thousands.
We've had years to act and we've done nothing. |
Agree with all of this. I’m tired of the peacock preening and hand wringing too. We are where we are and can only try and move forward and do something about it.
The issue I have is that western political will looks as weak as dishwater to me. Johnson doesn’t care about Ukraine. He sees it as an opportunity to escape from the disasters he and his fellow idiots created. An opportunity to look strong.
Scholz and Macron are pathetic in their own ways. Gutless and fearful too. Biden? Out of his depth. The EU overall - empty promises.
Yes, we need to do a lot more. I’m just not convinced bar shiny badges and smiles for the camera there’s much substance or any idea/plan on how to stop or at least hold Putin.
Back to Chamberlain, misguided though he was, he did have the country’s best interest at heart. His support for Churchill when he became leader was far stronger than the excellent Darkest Hour film portrayed. Secondly, in a desperate effort to avoid WW1 bloodbath, he as Chancellor was very interested in new technologies and that’s where financial support went. Navy upgrades, specs for modern aircraft like the Hurricane and Spitfire, particularly Radar (RDF) technology and mechanising the army.
Finances were poor, but he took a deep interest in these, despite opposition from all sides of the House. Appeasement was the popular policy not just with N Chamberlain. The man deserves re-appraising really. | | | |
| The 'special military operation' continues to reach new lows. on 12:37 - Jun 28 with 5461 views | Bent_double |
| The 'special military operation' continues to reach new lows. on 08:41 - Jun 23 by Churchman |
Kaliningrad isolated: the excuse for the Balkan states to be the next meal?
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-61878929
The geography of these countries make them the logical choice for Putin. They are relatively small too. The ‘dispute’ over the corridor to Kaliningrad is the perfect excuse. If Russia was to start by grabbing the territory the rail links go through, say a band of 50 miles, who would stop them? Nobody dare risk WW3 over Ukraine and they certainly wouldn’t over Kaliningrad access. The bluster over Nato mutual support is just that.
The irony is that this area is part of what was Prussia. The city was called Konigsberg and Russia kept it after WW2. Perhaps Germany should claim it back! |
I may be talking rubbish here, but maybe this move by Lithuania has the backing of NATO - the purpose being to goad Putin into some kind of attack, which in turn can be used by NATO to launch a legitimate response onto Russian targets?
I know it's probably daft considering how quickly things might escalate, but I would love to see Russia suffering some of the same pain they have been inflicting on innocent Ukrainians for the past 4 months. |  |
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| The 'special military operation' continues to reach new lows. on 12:42 - Jun 28 with 5460 views | Eireannach_gorm |
| The 'special military operation' continues to reach new lows. on 09:33 - Jun 28 by Churchman |
Agree with all of this. I’m tired of the peacock preening and hand wringing too. We are where we are and can only try and move forward and do something about it.
The issue I have is that western political will looks as weak as dishwater to me. Johnson doesn’t care about Ukraine. He sees it as an opportunity to escape from the disasters he and his fellow idiots created. An opportunity to look strong.
Scholz and Macron are pathetic in their own ways. Gutless and fearful too. Biden? Out of his depth. The EU overall - empty promises.
Yes, we need to do a lot more. I’m just not convinced bar shiny badges and smiles for the camera there’s much substance or any idea/plan on how to stop or at least hold Putin.
Back to Chamberlain, misguided though he was, he did have the country’s best interest at heart. His support for Churchill when he became leader was far stronger than the excellent Darkest Hour film portrayed. Secondly, in a desperate effort to avoid WW1 bloodbath, he as Chancellor was very interested in new technologies and that’s where financial support went. Navy upgrades, specs for modern aircraft like the Hurricane and Spitfire, particularly Radar (RDF) technology and mechanising the army.
Finances were poor, but he took a deep interest in these, despite opposition from all sides of the House. Appeasement was the popular policy not just with N Chamberlain. The man deserves re-appraising really. |
To add to all that madness, Putin is in his own little world ( trying to expand it! )
English translation of this web page.
https://www.letemps.ch/monde/emmanuel-macron-vladimir-poutine-quatre-jours-guerr
Emmanuel Macron to Vladimir Putin, four days before the war: "I don't know where your lawyer learned the law"
A conversation between Emmanuel Macron and Vladimir Poutine was unveiled in a documentary. On this occasion, the French president proposes a meeting in Geneva with Joe Biden. It will never take place. The exact words of a firm dialogue
Initiate. French President Emmanuel Macron has tried to maintain dialogue with his Russian counterpart, Vladimir Putin, without having the slightest illusion and without any snippets of discussion filtering through. A documentary, which will be broadcast on Thursday June 30 on the French channel France 2, lifts part of the veil on these telephone conversations.
The verbatim of one of the last talks between Emmanuel Macron and Vladimir Putin before the war in Ukraine, four days before the start of the invasion, has been revealed. The French president has not yet seen this documentary on the backstage of the Elysée and the negotiations carried talking hysterically, between familiarity, annoyance and incongruities. In this exchange, the Head of State offers the Russian President a meeting “in the very next few days” in Geneva with Joe Biden. It will never take place.
The exact words
Emmanuel Macron:
Since our last conversation, tensions have continued to grow and you know my commitment and my determination to continue the dialogue. I would like you to give me your reading of the situation first and perhaps quite directly as we both tell me what your intentions are. And then afterwards, I wanted to try to see if there were still useful actions to be taken and to make some suggestions to you.
Vladimir Poutine:
What could I say? You see yourself what is happening. You and Chancellor Scholz told me that Zelensky was ready to make a move, that he had prepared a bill to implement the Minsk Accords. […] In fact, our dear colleague, Mr. Zelensky, does nothing. He is lying to you. […] I don't know if you heard his statement yesterday where he said that Ukraine must have access to atomic weapons.
(Diplomatic adviser Emmanuel Bonne: "But no, anything.")
I also heard your comments during the press conference in Kyiv on February 8th. You said that the Minsk Accords must be revised, I quote, “so that they are applicable”.
(Macron's advisers: “No, he didn't say that”, “I'll tell him not to get into a detailed discussion with him.”)
Emmanuel Macron:
Vladimir, first of all, I never said that the Minsk Accords had to be revised. I never said it, neither in Berlin, nor in Kyiv, nor in Paris. I said that they had to be applied, that things had to be respected, and I don't have the same reading as you of the last days.
Vladimir Poutine:
Listen Emmanuel, I don't understand your problem with the separatists. They at least did everything necessary, at our insistence, to open a constructive dialogue with the Ukrainian authorities.
Emmanuel Macron:
Regarding what you said, Vladimir, several remarks: first thing, the Minsk Agreements are a dialogue with you, you are absolutely right. In this context, it is not expected that the basis of the discussion will be a text submitted by the separatists. And so, when your negotiator tries to force the Ukrainians to discuss on the basis of the separatists' roadmaps, he is not respecting the Minsk Accords. It is not separatists who are going to make proposals on Ukrainian laws!
Vladimir Poutine:
Of course, we have a completely different reading of the situation. During our last interview, I reminded you of and even read articles 9, 11 and 12 of the Minsk Accords.
Emmanuel Macron:
I have them in front of me! It is well written that the government of Ukraine — paragraph 9, etc. — proposes, and that it is in consultation and in agreement with the representatives of certain districts of the regions of Donetsk and Lugansk, within the framework of the tripartite contact group. This is exactly what we propose to do. So I don't know where your lawyer learned the law (a counselor smiles) . Me, I just look at the texts and I try to apply them! And I don't know what jurist will be able to tell you that in a sovereign country, the texts of laws are proposed by separatist groups and not by the democratically elected authorities.
Vladimir Poutine
(Firm and annoyed tone) This is not a democratically elected government. They came to power in a coup, there were people burned alive, it was a bloodbath and Zelensky is one of those responsible.
Listen to me carefully: the principle of dialogue is to take into account the interests of the other party. The proposals exist, the separatists, as you call them, transmitted them to the Ukrainians but they received no response. Where is the dialogue?
Emmanuel Macron:
But because, as I just told you, we don't give a damn about the separatists' proposals. What we are asking them is to react to the texts of the Ukrainians and things have to be done in this way because it is the law! What you have just said casts doubt, somewhere, on your own will to respect the Minsk Accords, if you judge that you are dealing with illegitimate and terrorist authorities.
Vladimir Poutine:
(Still very annoyed) Listen to me carefully. You hear me? I tell you again, the separatists, as you call them, reacted to the proposals of the Ukrainian authorities. They answered but these same authorities did not follow up.
Emmanuel Macron:
So ok: on the basis of their response to the texts of the Ukrainians, what I propose to you is that we demand from all the parties a meeting within the framework of the contact group in order to continue moving forward. Tomorrow, we can ask for this work to be done and demand that all stakeholders do not have an empty chair policy. However, the last two days, the separatists did not want to lend themselves to this discussion. Me, I will immediately demand that of Zelensky. Do we agree on that? If we agree, I launch it and I demand a meeting tomorrow.
Vladimir Poutine:
So to be in agreement, as soon as we hang up, I will study these proposals. But from the beginning, it was necessary to put pressure on the Ukrainians, but no one wanted to do it.
Emmanuel Macron:
But yes, I do my best to push them, you know it well.
Vladimir Poutine:
I know but unfortunately it is not effective.
Emmanuel Macron:
I need you to help me a little (mischievous) . The situation on the contact line is very tense. I really called Zelensky yesterday to calm down. I will tell him again, calm everyone down, calm down in social networks, calm down the Armed Forces of Ukraine. But what I also see is that you can really call to calm down your pre-positioned armed forces. There was a lot of shelling yesterday. If we want to give dialogue a chance, we have to calm things down in the region. How do you see the evolution of military exercises?
Vladimir Poutine:
Exercises are proceeding according to plan.
Emmanuel Macron:
So they end tonight, right?
Vladimir Poutine:
Yes, probably tonight, and we will definitely leave a military presence on the border until the situation in Donbass calms down. The discussion will be taken in consultation with the Ministries of Defense and Foreign Affairs.
Emmanuel Macron:
OK. Vladimir, I tell you very sincerely, for me, putting the discussions back in the right framework and avoiding tensions is an absolute prerequisite. And what matters to me — and I'm really asking you — is that we have the situation under control. That is the first pillar. And I'm counting on you a lot. Do not give in to provocations of any kind in the hours and days to come.
I wanted to make two very concrete proposals to you. The first, organize a meeting in the next few days in Geneva between you and President Biden. I spoke to him Friday evening, I asked him if I could make you this proposal. He told me to tell you he was ready for it. President Biden also reflected on ways to credibly de-escalate the situation, take your demands into account and very clearly address the issue of NATO and Ukraine. Tell me the date that suits you.
Vladimir Poutine:
Thank you very much Emanuel. It is always a great pleasure and a great honor to speak with your European counterparts as well as with the United States. And I always have a lot of fun talking to you because we are in a relationship of trust. So, Emmanuel, I suggest you reverse things. First of all, you have to prepare this meeting beforehand. It is only afterwards that we will be able to talk because if we come like that, to talk about everything and nothing, we will still be blamed for it.
Emmanuel Macron:
But can we say to ourselves today, at the end of these discussions, that we agree on the principle? I would like a clear answer from you on this. I understand your reluctance on a date, but are you ready to go ahead and say today “I would like a two-person meeting with the Americans, then extended to the Europeans” or not? (Counsellor: “Here.”)
Vladimir Poutine:
This is a proposal that deserves to be taken into account and if you want us to be well aligned on how to formulate it, I suggest that you ask our advisers to call each other to agree [… ] but know that in principle, I agree.
Emmanuel Macron:
Very well, you confirm to me that you agree on the principle. I suggest that our teams […] try to complete a joint text, a sort of press release at the end of this call.
Vladimir Poutine:
To be honest with you, I wanted to go play ice hockey because here I'm talking to you from the gym before starting physical exercises. I'll call my advisors first.
Emmanuel Macron:
Anyway, thank you Vladimir. We stay in touch in real time. As soon as there is something, you call me.
Vladimir Poutine:
Thank you, Mr. President (in French) . | | | |
| The 'special military operation' continues to reach new lows. on 16:50 - Jun 28 with 5416 views | Churchman |
| The 'special military operation' continues to reach new lows. on 12:37 - Jun 28 by Bent_double |
I may be talking rubbish here, but maybe this move by Lithuania has the backing of NATO - the purpose being to goad Putin into some kind of attack, which in turn can be used by NATO to launch a legitimate response onto Russian targets?
I know it's probably daft considering how quickly things might escalate, but I would love to see Russia suffering some of the same pain they have been inflicting on innocent Ukrainians for the past 4 months. |
NATO does not want conflict with Russia. It was formed for defensive reasons and even if people don’t believe that, it doesn’t have the capability to do it. Bar the US, NATO is militarily the weakest it’s been in years.
The Baltic states are scared and rightly so - as are Sweden, Finland, Poland and in particular Moldova. The more the Baltic states can have Nato troops stationed in them, the safer they will feel. | | | |
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