| The 'special military operation' continues to reach new lows. on 17:07 - Jun 28 with 6242 views | Churchman |
| The 'special military operation' continues to reach new lows. on 12:42 - Jun 28 by Eireannach_gorm |
To add to all that madness, Putin is in his own little world ( trying to expand it! )
English translation of this web page.
https://www.letemps.ch/monde/emmanuel-macron-vladimir-poutine-quatre-jours-guerr
Emmanuel Macron to Vladimir Putin, four days before the war: "I don't know where your lawyer learned the law"
A conversation between Emmanuel Macron and Vladimir Poutine was unveiled in a documentary. On this occasion, the French president proposes a meeting in Geneva with Joe Biden. It will never take place. The exact words of a firm dialogue
Initiate. French President Emmanuel Macron has tried to maintain dialogue with his Russian counterpart, Vladimir Putin, without having the slightest illusion and without any snippets of discussion filtering through. A documentary, which will be broadcast on Thursday June 30 on the French channel France 2, lifts part of the veil on these telephone conversations.
The verbatim of one of the last talks between Emmanuel Macron and Vladimir Putin before the war in Ukraine, four days before the start of the invasion, has been revealed. The French president has not yet seen this documentary on the backstage of the Elysée and the negotiations carried talking hysterically, between familiarity, annoyance and incongruities. In this exchange, the Head of State offers the Russian President a meeting “in the very next few days” in Geneva with Joe Biden. It will never take place.
The exact words
Emmanuel Macron:
Since our last conversation, tensions have continued to grow and you know my commitment and my determination to continue the dialogue. I would like you to give me your reading of the situation first and perhaps quite directly as we both tell me what your intentions are. And then afterwards, I wanted to try to see if there were still useful actions to be taken and to make some suggestions to you.
Vladimir Poutine:
What could I say? You see yourself what is happening. You and Chancellor Scholz told me that Zelensky was ready to make a move, that he had prepared a bill to implement the Minsk Accords. […] In fact, our dear colleague, Mr. Zelensky, does nothing. He is lying to you. […] I don't know if you heard his statement yesterday where he said that Ukraine must have access to atomic weapons.
(Diplomatic adviser Emmanuel Bonne: "But no, anything.")
I also heard your comments during the press conference in Kyiv on February 8th. You said that the Minsk Accords must be revised, I quote, “so that they are applicable”.
(Macron's advisers: “No, he didn't say that”, “I'll tell him not to get into a detailed discussion with him.”)
Emmanuel Macron:
Vladimir, first of all, I never said that the Minsk Accords had to be revised. I never said it, neither in Berlin, nor in Kyiv, nor in Paris. I said that they had to be applied, that things had to be respected, and I don't have the same reading as you of the last days.
Vladimir Poutine:
Listen Emmanuel, I don't understand your problem with the separatists. They at least did everything necessary, at our insistence, to open a constructive dialogue with the Ukrainian authorities.
Emmanuel Macron:
Regarding what you said, Vladimir, several remarks: first thing, the Minsk Agreements are a dialogue with you, you are absolutely right. In this context, it is not expected that the basis of the discussion will be a text submitted by the separatists. And so, when your negotiator tries to force the Ukrainians to discuss on the basis of the separatists' roadmaps, he is not respecting the Minsk Accords. It is not separatists who are going to make proposals on Ukrainian laws!
Vladimir Poutine:
Of course, we have a completely different reading of the situation. During our last interview, I reminded you of and even read articles 9, 11 and 12 of the Minsk Accords.
Emmanuel Macron:
I have them in front of me! It is well written that the government of Ukraine — paragraph 9, etc. — proposes, and that it is in consultation and in agreement with the representatives of certain districts of the regions of Donetsk and Lugansk, within the framework of the tripartite contact group. This is exactly what we propose to do. So I don't know where your lawyer learned the law (a counselor smiles) . Me, I just look at the texts and I try to apply them! And I don't know what jurist will be able to tell you that in a sovereign country, the texts of laws are proposed by separatist groups and not by the democratically elected authorities.
Vladimir Poutine
(Firm and annoyed tone) This is not a democratically elected government. They came to power in a coup, there were people burned alive, it was a bloodbath and Zelensky is one of those responsible.
Listen to me carefully: the principle of dialogue is to take into account the interests of the other party. The proposals exist, the separatists, as you call them, transmitted them to the Ukrainians but they received no response. Where is the dialogue?
Emmanuel Macron:
But because, as I just told you, we don't give a damn about the separatists' proposals. What we are asking them is to react to the texts of the Ukrainians and things have to be done in this way because it is the law! What you have just said casts doubt, somewhere, on your own will to respect the Minsk Accords, if you judge that you are dealing with illegitimate and terrorist authorities.
Vladimir Poutine:
(Still very annoyed) Listen to me carefully. You hear me? I tell you again, the separatists, as you call them, reacted to the proposals of the Ukrainian authorities. They answered but these same authorities did not follow up.
Emmanuel Macron:
So ok: on the basis of their response to the texts of the Ukrainians, what I propose to you is that we demand from all the parties a meeting within the framework of the contact group in order to continue moving forward. Tomorrow, we can ask for this work to be done and demand that all stakeholders do not have an empty chair policy. However, the last two days, the separatists did not want to lend themselves to this discussion. Me, I will immediately demand that of Zelensky. Do we agree on that? If we agree, I launch it and I demand a meeting tomorrow.
Vladimir Poutine:
So to be in agreement, as soon as we hang up, I will study these proposals. But from the beginning, it was necessary to put pressure on the Ukrainians, but no one wanted to do it.
Emmanuel Macron:
But yes, I do my best to push them, you know it well.
Vladimir Poutine:
I know but unfortunately it is not effective.
Emmanuel Macron:
I need you to help me a little (mischievous) . The situation on the contact line is very tense. I really called Zelensky yesterday to calm down. I will tell him again, calm everyone down, calm down in social networks, calm down the Armed Forces of Ukraine. But what I also see is that you can really call to calm down your pre-positioned armed forces. There was a lot of shelling yesterday. If we want to give dialogue a chance, we have to calm things down in the region. How do you see the evolution of military exercises?
Vladimir Poutine:
Exercises are proceeding according to plan.
Emmanuel Macron:
So they end tonight, right?
Vladimir Poutine:
Yes, probably tonight, and we will definitely leave a military presence on the border until the situation in Donbass calms down. The discussion will be taken in consultation with the Ministries of Defense and Foreign Affairs.
Emmanuel Macron:
OK. Vladimir, I tell you very sincerely, for me, putting the discussions back in the right framework and avoiding tensions is an absolute prerequisite. And what matters to me — and I'm really asking you — is that we have the situation under control. That is the first pillar. And I'm counting on you a lot. Do not give in to provocations of any kind in the hours and days to come.
I wanted to make two very concrete proposals to you. The first, organize a meeting in the next few days in Geneva between you and President Biden. I spoke to him Friday evening, I asked him if I could make you this proposal. He told me to tell you he was ready for it. President Biden also reflected on ways to credibly de-escalate the situation, take your demands into account and very clearly address the issue of NATO and Ukraine. Tell me the date that suits you.
Vladimir Poutine:
Thank you very much Emanuel. It is always a great pleasure and a great honor to speak with your European counterparts as well as with the United States. And I always have a lot of fun talking to you because we are in a relationship of trust. So, Emmanuel, I suggest you reverse things. First of all, you have to prepare this meeting beforehand. It is only afterwards that we will be able to talk because if we come like that, to talk about everything and nothing, we will still be blamed for it.
Emmanuel Macron:
But can we say to ourselves today, at the end of these discussions, that we agree on the principle? I would like a clear answer from you on this. I understand your reluctance on a date, but are you ready to go ahead and say today “I would like a two-person meeting with the Americans, then extended to the Europeans” or not? (Counsellor: “Here.”)
Vladimir Poutine:
This is a proposal that deserves to be taken into account and if you want us to be well aligned on how to formulate it, I suggest that you ask our advisers to call each other to agree [… ] but know that in principle, I agree.
Emmanuel Macron:
Very well, you confirm to me that you agree on the principle. I suggest that our teams […] try to complete a joint text, a sort of press release at the end of this call.
Vladimir Poutine:
To be honest with you, I wanted to go play ice hockey because here I'm talking to you from the gym before starting physical exercises. I'll call my advisors first.
Emmanuel Macron:
Anyway, thank you Vladimir. We stay in touch in real time. As soon as there is something, you call me.
Vladimir Poutine:
Thank you, Mr. President (in French) . |
Fascinating. I needed the translation! My shamefully poor French wasn’t up to that! Ta for that.
A fascinating read, especially the dynamic between them. I wonder what the conversations with Macron and Scholz were after the war started?
Macron and Scholz clearly feel they have the ear of Putin. The conversation also indicates Macron feels he has control of Biden’s diary.
Putin on the other hand is playing him/them for fools from a position of strength. |  | |  |
| The 'special military operation' continues to reach new lows. on 22:55 - Jun 28 with 6103 views | Eireannach_gorm |
| The 'special military operation' continues to reach new lows. on 20:27 - Jun 28 by Churchman |
The Winter War cost USSR something like 400k casualties. The Finns and the weather created a hell for the Russian soldiers.
However, Stalin didn’t care one jot and Russia won its war. Sounds familiar!
It’s no wonder Finland has kept a decent military and is up for joint Nato. |
Last obstacle has been overcome.
https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/us-press-turkey-finland-sweden-hope-nato-br |  | | |
| The 'special military operation' continues to reach new lows. on 23:03 - Jun 28 with 6084 views | jeera |
Good.
Bring it on. |  |
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| The 'special military operation' continues to reach new lows. on 23:06 - Jun 28 with 6081 views | Churchman |
Good spot! That’s really good news. Not just for Finland and Sweden and strengthening the northern countries, but because division on this would have been helpful to Putin.
I’ve no doubt Putin will move a few missiles, but that’s pretty irrelevant since he can in theory destroy anything from anywhere anyway. | | | |
| The 'special military operation' continues to reach new lows. on 23:12 - Jun 28 with 6067 views | Lord_Lucan |
| The 'special military operation' continues to reach new lows. on 23:06 - Jun 28 by Churchman |
Good spot! That’s really good news. Not just for Finland and Sweden and strengthening the northern countries, but because division on this would have been helpful to Putin.
I’ve no doubt Putin will move a few missiles, but that’s pretty irrelevant since he can in theory destroy anything from anywhere anyway. |
In theory he could destroy anything - providing he wasn't shot by his own men in the process - and in any case he would be destroyed back - but he might be mad enough not to care.
Nato or no Nato though, I don't think he would attempt to invade Finland by way of a conventional conflict because they would really kick his arse.
In fact, if he opened up another front and went into Finland he would be mirroring Hitler even more. |  |
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| The 'special military operation' continues to reach new lows. on 23:21 - Jun 28 with 6060 views | BanksterDebtSlave |
| The 'special military operation' continues to reach new lows. on 23:03 - Jun 28 by jeera |
Good.
Bring it on. |
Tell that to the YPG.
"The Nordic countries said they confirmed that the PKK was a proscribed organisation and, in a key concession, would “not provide support” to the Syrian Kurdish Democratic Union party (PYD) and People’s Protection Units (YPG) groups that have been active in the fight against Islamic State in Syria." |  |
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| The 'special military operation' continues to reach new lows. on 23:28 - Jun 28 with 6049 views | jeera |
| The 'special military operation' continues to reach new lows. on 23:21 - Jun 28 by BanksterDebtSlave |
Tell that to the YPG.
"The Nordic countries said they confirmed that the PKK was a proscribed organisation and, in a key concession, would “not provide support” to the Syrian Kurdish Democratic Union party (PYD) and People’s Protection Units (YPG) groups that have been active in the fight against Islamic State in Syria." |
I'm not praising Turkey.
I know how badly they've behaved in regards to the Kurds and agree not enough is/has been done to protect them.
I'm pleased that the block has been removed for Finland and Sweden to join NATO.
A more united front is important right now. | |
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| The 'special military operation' continues to reach new lows. on 07:17 - Jun 29 with 6019 views | Churchman |
| The 'special military operation' continues to reach new lows. on 23:12 - Jun 28 by Lord_Lucan |
In theory he could destroy anything - providing he wasn't shot by his own men in the process - and in any case he would be destroyed back - but he might be mad enough not to care.
Nato or no Nato though, I don't think he would attempt to invade Finland by way of a conventional conflict because they would really kick his arse.
In fact, if he opened up another front and went into Finland he would be mirroring Hitler even more. |
He won’t destroy everything. He’s too much of a coward. He will bully, sacrifice others, threaten, manoeuvre, trample on a country if he can get away with it. But faced down, he will back off. Bullies do that. All this bravado - bare chested on his horse, ice hockey, grand rooms, having the likes of Macron bouncing up and down on his knee says an awful lot about him.
If nato is serious, holds together and ‘solidifies’ Putin will be stopped. When, how and what Europe will look like? Who knows.
Finland militarily currently spends just under 2% of GDP on military and its army if called up about 280k is mostly conscripts. It’s organised though and possesses plenty of hardware. It’s an asset to NATO in the new world that is emerging. | | | |
| The 'special military operation' continues to reach new lows. on 11:18 - Jun 29 with 5972 views | Eireannach_gorm |
| The 'special military operation' continues to reach new lows. on 19:00 - Jun 27 by Eireannach_gorm |
[Post edited 27 Jun 2022 19:02]
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According to the Russians this is all fake news, the supermarket was empty and they struck a legitimate target nearby which caused the fire!
https://www.bbc.com/news/61967480?utm_source=pocket-newtab-global-en-GB
Video footage of people in the pond and park are a bit scary. [Post edited 29 Jun 2022 11:50]
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| The 'special military operation' continues to reach new lows. on 12:51 - Jun 29 with 5944 views | Churchman |
Russian statement credibility is zero. I am suspicious of western propaganda but at least you can read between the lines. The Russians? It’s all out of some fantasy playbook all geared towards pleasing a tool with a weak chin. [Post edited 29 Jun 2022 19:04]
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| The 'special military operation' continues to reach new lows. on 23:36 - Jun 29 with 5821 views | Eireannach_gorm |
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| The 'special military operation' continues to reach new lows. on 08:02 - Jun 30 with 5744 views | Churchman |
| The 'special military operation' continues to reach new lows. on 23:36 - Jun 29 by Eireannach_gorm |
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Awful, sad pictures. People who just want to live out their lives extinguished by a madman. I know most people are bored with Ukraine and get desensitised to pictures like this, but I don’t.
Ok, despite Zelenski’s claim I doubt Russia targeted a shopping mall. They’re not that good. More likely they were firing at something else or just indiscriminately. This is irrelevant. They don’t care what they do or the number of people that have to die in pursuit of territory. It
doesn’t matter whether it’s called a war crime, a crime against humanity or anything else. He and his poodles need to be held to account for this. If Milosevic can reside in a prison cell for Serbia’s efforts, so should the little man with a weak chin.
The world should be telling Russia that while this dreadful creature is there, reconciliation will never happen and Russia will be de-linked economically. Not going to happen though. No chance. Western greed, self interest, denial, Chinese ambitions, Indian complicity guarantees Russias economic security and backs their ambitions. | | | |
| The 'special military operation' continues to reach new lows. on 10:00 - Jun 30 with 5719 views | Eireannach_gorm |
| The 'special military operation' continues to reach new lows. on 08:02 - Jun 30 by Churchman |
Awful, sad pictures. People who just want to live out their lives extinguished by a madman. I know most people are bored with Ukraine and get desensitised to pictures like this, but I don’t.
Ok, despite Zelenski’s claim I doubt Russia targeted a shopping mall. They’re not that good. More likely they were firing at something else or just indiscriminately. This is irrelevant. They don’t care what they do or the number of people that have to die in pursuit of territory. It
doesn’t matter whether it’s called a war crime, a crime against humanity or anything else. He and his poodles need to be held to account for this. If Milosevic can reside in a prison cell for Serbia’s efforts, so should the little man with a weak chin.
The world should be telling Russia that while this dreadful creature is there, reconciliation will never happen and Russia will be de-linked economically. Not going to happen though. No chance. Western greed, self interest, denial, Chinese ambitions, Indian complicity guarantees Russias economic security and backs their ambitions. |
Have faith churchman, here's some good news from the front.
The fact that the Ukrainians have bombed the sh1t out of it has no bearing on this decision ( not sure it is hugely significant but a small success ).
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| The 'special military operation' continues to reach new lows. on 11:49 - Jun 30 with 5710 views | Churchman |
| The 'special military operation' continues to reach new lows. on 10:00 - Jun 30 by Eireannach_gorm |
Have faith churchman, here's some good news from the front.
The fact that the Ukrainians have bombed the sh1t out of it has no bearing on this decision ( not sure it is hugely significant but a small success ).
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Thanks for this. It is good news. Russia has taken pointless losses for a tiny little island whose significance is largely symbolic. I don’t think a sea based attack on Odessa was very likely, but if it was on the agenda, that threat is reduced now.
This ‘humanitarian corridor’ reasoning is nonsense. Just a cover for their own embarrassment. They’ve been forced off. Had Ukraine not been plastering it, they would have stayed. | | | |
| The 'special military operation' continues to reach new lows. on 16:23 - Jun 30 with 5651 views | Eireannach_gorm |
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| The 'special military operation' continues to reach new lows. on 17:45 - Jun 30 with 5620 views | Eireannach_gorm |
Last line of advice in Russian of Ukrainian population infiltration is
'If you messed up, then try not to leave witnesses from among the locals.' | | | |
| The 'special military operation' continues to reach new lows. on 19:23 - Jun 30 with 5586 views | Churchman |
| The 'special military operation' continues to reach new lows. on 17:45 - Jun 30 by Eireannach_gorm |
Last line of advice in Russian of Ukrainian population infiltration is
'If you messed up, then try not to leave witnesses from among the locals.' |
Why am I not surprised.
I suppose if you view people who oppose you as nothing, you are one short step from eradicating them. With a warped view like that there’s no reason not to. Sickening.
The links to not so distant history are chilling. The lessons are crystal clear - if people want to see them. | | | |
| The 'special military operation' continues to reach new lows. on 22:40 - Jun 30 with 5540 views | Eireannach_gorm |
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| The 'special military operation' continues to reach new lows. on 22:53 - Jun 30 with 5524 views | Nthsuffolkblue |
| The 'special military operation' continues to reach new lows. on 19:23 - Jun 30 by Churchman |
Why am I not surprised.
I suppose if you view people who oppose you as nothing, you are one short step from eradicating them. With a warped view like that there’s no reason not to. Sickening.
The links to not so distant history are chilling. The lessons are crystal clear - if people want to see them. |
They view people who support them as nothing let alone people who oppose them.
The biggest issue here is that those in charge put no value at all on human life. |  |
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| The 'special military operation' continues to reach new lows. on 12:04 - Jul 1 with 5437 views | Eireannach_gorm |
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