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How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 21:23 - Apr 19 by Bigalhunter
It is, regrettably, what he has always done on here. Accuse, double down on it, throw about accusations and ‘comparisons’ with former posters, and to some extent, I can understand it with regards to the current situation in the Middle East.
His family are of Jewish heritage, I believe.
My late father was of Palestinian heritage and went to his grave still ashamed that he lost his livelihood in the country of his birth, and had to seek help from relatives in the UK.
As a result, I will always take an anti-Israel stance for as long as Phil tolerates my time on here, purely because of the shame and misery it caused him.
The fact that my father would be appalled at the actions of Hamas, and hugely disapprove of my saying this whilst wasting my time squabbling on an Ipswich forum probably says more about me.
Be careful, don’t upset Phil again, and hopefully this thread can continue to highlight the atrocious behaviour of the Israeli authorities without getting pulled or sabotaged.
[Post edited 27 Apr 7:37]
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How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 21:40 - Apr 19 with 1609 views
How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 21:23 - Apr 19 by Bigalhunter
It is, regrettably, what he has always done on here. Accuse, double down on it, throw about accusations and ‘comparisons’ with former posters, and to some extent, I can understand it with regards to the current situation in the Middle East.
His family are of Jewish heritage, I believe.
My late father was of Palestinian heritage and went to his grave still ashamed that he lost his livelihood in the country of his birth, and had to seek help from relatives in the UK.
As a result, I will always take an anti-Israel stance for as long as Phil tolerates my time on here, purely because of the shame and misery it caused him.
The fact that my father would be appalled at the actions of Hamas, and hugely disapprove of my saying this whilst wasting my time squabbling on an Ipswich forum probably says more about me.
Be careful, don’t upset Phil again, and hopefully this thread can continue to highlight the atrocious behaviour of the Israeli authorities without getting pulled or sabotaged.
I think that’s the crux of the problems on here. People are biased. There’s nothing wrong with that of course - why shouldn’t you be biased if you have direct experience from the Palestinian side, and why shouldn’t someone like Glassers have a different experience if they’re personally impacted by coming from the other side. It natural and to be expected.
The actors in the nations involved can’t currently find a way to bridge those divides. Maybe we can on here? Maybe not, who knows. I hope we can.
It’s a few days old, but I found this an interesting listen this week. It’s probably too basic for anyone with a good knowledge of Middle East politics, but I found it informative.
How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 21:23 - Apr 19 by Bigalhunter
It is, regrettably, what he has always done on here. Accuse, double down on it, throw about accusations and ‘comparisons’ with former posters, and to some extent, I can understand it with regards to the current situation in the Middle East.
His family are of Jewish heritage, I believe.
My late father was of Palestinian heritage and went to his grave still ashamed that he lost his livelihood in the country of his birth, and had to seek help from relatives in the UK.
As a result, I will always take an anti-Israel stance for as long as Phil tolerates my time on here, purely because of the shame and misery it caused him.
The fact that my father would be appalled at the actions of Hamas, and hugely disapprove of my saying this whilst wasting my time squabbling on an Ipswich forum probably says more about me.
Be careful, don’t upset Phil again, and hopefully this thread can continue to highlight the atrocious behaviour of the Israeli authorities without getting pulled or sabotaged.
I had (and have) no intention of upsetting Phil or anyone for that matter and I hope he understands my reasons for assuming that increasing page clicks makes his site more money through advertising. I've explained to Phil in the past how much I appreciate the format of TWTD as it's a way for me to stay in touch with the Suffolk people (like me) now that I no longer live in the region.
Concerning the Palestine situation, I'm a supporter of a one state solution where Jews and Muslims live in peace as they have done in history in numerous places. On the face of it that seems as unlikely now as a united South Africa was 30 years ago.
However, despite the dire situation which currently exists in the region I am still optimistic that one day the area will know peaceful co-existence between all faiths.
It's also worth pointing out that both my wife and I are mixed race and our grown-up kids are multi-lingual, multi-ethnic, peace-loving credits to their combined heritages. This lies at the root of my belief that a one-state solution is the only future for both peoples and the reason why I find insinuations of anti-semitism so distasteful and unpleasant.
GB has stated in the past that his wife is of Jewish heritage and obviously therefore so are his kids. [EDIT] I have no dislike of any culture, faith or religion. There are beautiful people and absolute idiots in every place in the world, our job as individuals is to look for what we have in common with our neighbour rather than what makes us difference. It's not really that difficult if your desire for peace is genuine and we start from a position of mutual respect.
[Post edited 19 Apr 21:57]
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(No subject) (n/t) on 22:01 - Apr 19 with 1535 views
How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 21:48 - Apr 19 by ChorleyBoy
I had (and have) no intention of upsetting Phil or anyone for that matter and I hope he understands my reasons for assuming that increasing page clicks makes his site more money through advertising. I've explained to Phil in the past how much I appreciate the format of TWTD as it's a way for me to stay in touch with the Suffolk people (like me) now that I no longer live in the region.
Concerning the Palestine situation, I'm a supporter of a one state solution where Jews and Muslims live in peace as they have done in history in numerous places. On the face of it that seems as unlikely now as a united South Africa was 30 years ago.
However, despite the dire situation which currently exists in the region I am still optimistic that one day the area will know peaceful co-existence between all faiths.
It's also worth pointing out that both my wife and I are mixed race and our grown-up kids are multi-lingual, multi-ethnic, peace-loving credits to their combined heritages. This lies at the root of my belief that a one-state solution is the only future for both peoples and the reason why I find insinuations of anti-semitism so distasteful and unpleasant.
GB has stated in the past that his wife is of Jewish heritage and obviously therefore so are his kids. [EDIT] I have no dislike of any culture, faith or religion. There are beautiful people and absolute idiots in every place in the world, our job as individuals is to look for what we have in common with our neighbour rather than what makes us difference. It's not really that difficult if your desire for peace is genuine and we start from a position of mutual respect.
[Post edited 19 Apr 21:57]
[Post edited 27 Apr 7:38]
1
How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 22:10 - Apr 19 with 1501 views
"It seems awful that we must divulge our history to have relevance. "
I get what you're saying - but if a little extra communication and information helps to make us more human, then humanity will win over hatred and dehumanisation and peace has a chance.
1
How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 22:13 - Apr 19 with 1484 views
How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 21:48 - Apr 19 by ChorleyBoy
I had (and have) no intention of upsetting Phil or anyone for that matter and I hope he understands my reasons for assuming that increasing page clicks makes his site more money through advertising. I've explained to Phil in the past how much I appreciate the format of TWTD as it's a way for me to stay in touch with the Suffolk people (like me) now that I no longer live in the region.
Concerning the Palestine situation, I'm a supporter of a one state solution where Jews and Muslims live in peace as they have done in history in numerous places. On the face of it that seems as unlikely now as a united South Africa was 30 years ago.
However, despite the dire situation which currently exists in the region I am still optimistic that one day the area will know peaceful co-existence between all faiths.
It's also worth pointing out that both my wife and I are mixed race and our grown-up kids are multi-lingual, multi-ethnic, peace-loving credits to their combined heritages. This lies at the root of my belief that a one-state solution is the only future for both peoples and the reason why I find insinuations of anti-semitism so distasteful and unpleasant.
GB has stated in the past that his wife is of Jewish heritage and obviously therefore so are his kids. [EDIT] I have no dislike of any culture, faith or religion. There are beautiful people and absolute idiots in every place in the world, our job as individuals is to look for what we have in common with our neighbour rather than what makes us difference. It's not really that difficult if your desire for peace is genuine and we start from a position of mutual respect.
[Post edited 19 Apr 21:57]
So effectively you hope the solution is to learn to live together (or being cynical, maybe people need to be forced to live together). That seems a more hopeful aim than the segregation required by a two state solution. even though most people quote two states as the ideal solution. I’m not passing judgment though; this is all well outside my experience.
How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 22:10 - Apr 19 by ChorleyBoy
"It seems awful that we must divulge our history to have relevance. "
I get what you're saying - but if a little extra communication and information helps to make us more human, then humanity will win over hatred and dehumanisation and peace has a chance.
Does this sound as bad in Hebrew as it does in English ? on 17:47 - Apr 19 by phillymark
We didn't occupy or starve Germany? Read a book
I recently read "Aftermath" about the post-WW2 situation in Germany, and the UK was serious about making sure the occupation was inoffensive to the Germans.
[Post edited 19 Apr 22:36]
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How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 22:46 - Apr 19 with 1380 views
How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 22:13 - Apr 19 by Swansea_Blue
So effectively you hope the solution is to learn to live together (or being cynical, maybe people need to be forced to live together). That seems a more hopeful aim than the segregation required by a two state solution. even though most people quote two states as the ideal solution. I’m not passing judgment though; this is all well outside my experience.
Pretty much. Neither side really wants a divided land ("From the river to the sea" and all that) so the options are to share it or "wipe one side off the map" and I sincerely believe no normal, peace-loving person wants that. This is a fight to see value in all human life rather than a defence of one's politics or religion. At the end of the day Muslims, Jews and Christians all have the same God and if they put humanity and respect of their neighbours ahead of tribalism, peaceful co-existence is possible.
Countries and like families: where differences are understood, tolerated and finally valued, they become wonderful and strong.
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How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 23:39 - Apr 19 with 1329 views
How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 22:46 - Apr 19 by ChorleyBoy
Pretty much. Neither side really wants a divided land ("From the river to the sea" and all that) so the options are to share it or "wipe one side off the map" and I sincerely believe no normal, peace-loving person wants that. This is a fight to see value in all human life rather than a defence of one's politics or religion. At the end of the day Muslims, Jews and Christians all have the same God and if they put humanity and respect of their neighbours ahead of tribalism, peaceful co-existence is possible.
Countries and like families: where differences are understood, tolerated and finally valued, they become wonderful and strong.
"At the end of the day Muslims, Jews and Christians all have the same God and if they put humanity and respect of their neighbours ahead of tribalism, peaceful co-existence is possible".
I haven't followed this thread for a while, just dip in occasionally, & can't claim to be very well-informed about the Israel/Palestinian conflict, so apols if this is naive - but it's always seemed to me that this conflict isn't so much about religion as about territory, and the understandable desire of both sides to feel safe (with the rider of course that the State of Israel was established primarily for people of Jewish ethnicity, but of course not all Jews are religious, many are 'secular').
How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 23:39 - Apr 19 by Ryorry
"At the end of the day Muslims, Jews and Christians all have the same God and if they put humanity and respect of their neighbours ahead of tribalism, peaceful co-existence is possible".
I haven't followed this thread for a while, just dip in occasionally, & can't claim to be very well-informed about the Israel/Palestinian conflict, so apols if this is naive - but it's always seemed to me that this conflict isn't so much about religion as about territory, and the understandable desire of both sides to feel safe (with the rider of course that the State of Israel was established primarily for people of Jewish ethnicity, but of course not all Jews are religious, many are 'secular').
God is a massive part. Both parties' claim to the land is based on a supposed god given right.
This is 2024....
1
How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 09:50 - Apr 20 with 1155 views
How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 21:48 - Apr 19 by ChorleyBoy
I had (and have) no intention of upsetting Phil or anyone for that matter and I hope he understands my reasons for assuming that increasing page clicks makes his site more money through advertising. I've explained to Phil in the past how much I appreciate the format of TWTD as it's a way for me to stay in touch with the Suffolk people (like me) now that I no longer live in the region.
Concerning the Palestine situation, I'm a supporter of a one state solution where Jews and Muslims live in peace as they have done in history in numerous places. On the face of it that seems as unlikely now as a united South Africa was 30 years ago.
However, despite the dire situation which currently exists in the region I am still optimistic that one day the area will know peaceful co-existence between all faiths.
It's also worth pointing out that both my wife and I are mixed race and our grown-up kids are multi-lingual, multi-ethnic, peace-loving credits to their combined heritages. This lies at the root of my belief that a one-state solution is the only future for both peoples and the reason why I find insinuations of anti-semitism so distasteful and unpleasant.
GB has stated in the past that his wife is of Jewish heritage and obviously therefore so are his kids. [EDIT] I have no dislike of any culture, faith or religion. There are beautiful people and absolute idiots in every place in the world, our job as individuals is to look for what we have in common with our neighbour rather than what makes us difference. It's not really that difficult if your desire for peace is genuine and we start from a position of mutual respect.
[Post edited 19 Apr 21:57]
With all due respect, a one state solution is pie in the sky. Israel is the world's only Jewish state. With antisemitism at an all time high, a safe haven for Jews is needed more than at any time since the second world war.
Jews have been driven out of pretty much every middle eastern country. The government of Gaza, Hamas, have the eradication of Jews in their charter.
There are 50 Muslim majority countries in the world. Just one Jewish country. Israel.And people want to take that away from them. And taking religion to one side, it's not a God given right that the Jews live in Israel. It's a historical fact going back two millenia.
There has never been a country called Palestine that has been governed by "Palestinians". Since the Jews were driven out 2000 years ago the area has been continually occupied. From the Byzantine Empire, Islamic state of the Mamluks, Ottoman Empire to British Mandated Palestine. People constantly talk about the pre 1967 borders, but what happened between 1948 and 1967. Israel's Arab neighbours, Syria, Egypt and Jordan invaded the Palestinian territory mandated by the UN and claimed it for themselves with no thought for the Palestinian people. We had a two state solution in 1948. The Arab world rejected it. Not because they supported the rights of the Palestinian people, but because they wanted the land for themselves and they didn't want the Jews living there.
A one state solution would see the same thing happen again, but this time the Jewish people would have no defence.
A two state solution is the only real answer. However, that can't be achieved so long as Hamas exists or we have an ultra right wing government under Netanyahu.
How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 23:39 - Apr 19 by Ryorry
"At the end of the day Muslims, Jews and Christians all have the same God and if they put humanity and respect of their neighbours ahead of tribalism, peaceful co-existence is possible".
I haven't followed this thread for a while, just dip in occasionally, & can't claim to be very well-informed about the Israel/Palestinian conflict, so apols if this is naive - but it's always seemed to me that this conflict isn't so much about religion as about territory, and the understandable desire of both sides to feel safe (with the rider of course that the State of Israel was established primarily for people of Jewish ethnicity, but of course not all Jews are religious, many are 'secular').
Ryorry, I enjoy your posts, they often give me pause for thought.
I'll start with the disclaimer that I claim to be neither a religious nor a geo-political scholar though I do have an interest in both driven by my desire to solve existential questions about humanity.
Welcome to the complex world of everything connected to modern day Israel and biblical Holy Land, her peoples and the Abrahamic religions (Judaism, Islam and Christianity).
Definitions and "truths" You say it seems to you "that this conflict isn't so much about religion as about territory..." The word "Israel" itself has religious/biblical roots, meaning "God Contended", "Wrestles with God", "Triumphant with God " or "God Perseveres". My ancient Hebrew isn't that great but whatever meaning you choose, God's involved.
The Hebrew Bible (Tanakh) and Old Testament both refer to the Land of Israel or Eretz Yisrael but its geographical borders are inconsistent. What is not debated is that British mandated Palestine comprised the two kingdoms of Israel Samaria and Judah which the early Zionists and founders of modern day Israel accepted as the State of Israel.
Interestingly (at least for me) the land referred to in the expression "From the river to the sea" is the area between the River Jordan and Mediterranean - originally called Palestine. Some theologians argue that the expression comes from the promised land refered to in Psalms where the river in question is the Euphrates. This much larger area is one interpretation of what is "Greater Israel" while others use Greater Israel to refer to modern day Israel plus Gaza and the West Bank.
In short it's all very confusing, highly contested between different Jews and non-Jews alike and their political and religious leanings - but obviously each group generally contends that their interpretations based on their group's definitions is the correct one. All this doesn't provide for a great deal of agreement between all groups: religious Jews, secular Jews, cultural Jews, historical Jews, political Zionists, religious Zionists, Christian Zionists, Christians, those who "stand with Israel" and those who "stand with Palestinians", Muslims (of all flavours), radical Muslims, non-radical Muslims to name just a few. They all have a different versions of history and resulting "truths". So to say this is between Jews and Palestinians is simplifying things to the point of irrelevance.
"Chosen people" While the current estimate for the percentage of secular Israeli Jews is around 45% - depending on your definition of secular (yep, it's that complicated). But approximately two thirds of Israeli Jews (according to the Israeli Democracy Institute) believe that the Jews are the "chosen people". So even if we assume all religious Jews consider themselves "chosen" by God, it means there are plenty more secular Jews who also class themselves "chosen people", but by whom??? Furthermore, a 2009 survey detailed in an article in Haaretz in January 2012, showed that 80% of Israeli Jews believed in God, with nearly half of them self-reporting as secular. Go figure.
The "Father of Zionism" Theodor Herzl himself, an atheist Zionist, wrote "the chosen people" is a moral responsibility and not a right" - which begs the question: Who, in the eyes of an atheist, is choosing the "chosen people" he is referring to?
We all have "Skin in the game" I've read a couple of posts in this thread saying that bias is natural and expected for those us us TWTD forum posters who have "skin in the game" - referring obviously to people with Jewish or Palestinian heritage. I totally accept that but would add that in the case of genocide, as people we all have skin in this game.
1
How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 12:42 - Apr 20 with 1002 views
How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 11:53 - Apr 20 by ChorleyBoy
Ryorry, I enjoy your posts, they often give me pause for thought.
I'll start with the disclaimer that I claim to be neither a religious nor a geo-political scholar though I do have an interest in both driven by my desire to solve existential questions about humanity.
Welcome to the complex world of everything connected to modern day Israel and biblical Holy Land, her peoples and the Abrahamic religions (Judaism, Islam and Christianity).
Definitions and "truths" You say it seems to you "that this conflict isn't so much about religion as about territory..." The word "Israel" itself has religious/biblical roots, meaning "God Contended", "Wrestles with God", "Triumphant with God " or "God Perseveres". My ancient Hebrew isn't that great but whatever meaning you choose, God's involved.
The Hebrew Bible (Tanakh) and Old Testament both refer to the Land of Israel or Eretz Yisrael but its geographical borders are inconsistent. What is not debated is that British mandated Palestine comprised the two kingdoms of Israel Samaria and Judah which the early Zionists and founders of modern day Israel accepted as the State of Israel.
Interestingly (at least for me) the land referred to in the expression "From the river to the sea" is the area between the River Jordan and Mediterranean - originally called Palestine. Some theologians argue that the expression comes from the promised land refered to in Psalms where the river in question is the Euphrates. This much larger area is one interpretation of what is "Greater Israel" while others use Greater Israel to refer to modern day Israel plus Gaza and the West Bank.
In short it's all very confusing, highly contested between different Jews and non-Jews alike and their political and religious leanings - but obviously each group generally contends that their interpretations based on their group's definitions is the correct one. All this doesn't provide for a great deal of agreement between all groups: religious Jews, secular Jews, cultural Jews, historical Jews, political Zionists, religious Zionists, Christian Zionists, Christians, those who "stand with Israel" and those who "stand with Palestinians", Muslims (of all flavours), radical Muslims, non-radical Muslims to name just a few. They all have a different versions of history and resulting "truths". So to say this is between Jews and Palestinians is simplifying things to the point of irrelevance.
"Chosen people" While the current estimate for the percentage of secular Israeli Jews is around 45% - depending on your definition of secular (yep, it's that complicated). But approximately two thirds of Israeli Jews (according to the Israeli Democracy Institute) believe that the Jews are the "chosen people". So even if we assume all religious Jews consider themselves "chosen" by God, it means there are plenty more secular Jews who also class themselves "chosen people", but by whom??? Furthermore, a 2009 survey detailed in an article in Haaretz in January 2012, showed that 80% of Israeli Jews believed in God, with nearly half of them self-reporting as secular. Go figure.
The "Father of Zionism" Theodor Herzl himself, an atheist Zionist, wrote "the chosen people" is a moral responsibility and not a right" - which begs the question: Who, in the eyes of an atheist, is choosing the "chosen people" he is referring to?
We all have "Skin in the game" I've read a couple of posts in this thread saying that bias is natural and expected for those us us TWTD forum posters who have "skin in the game" - referring obviously to people with Jewish or Palestinian heritage. I totally accept that but would add that in the case of genocide, as people we all have skin in this game.
"originally called Palestine". There has never been a land called Palestine. There has been as land called The Kingdom of Israel and a land called the Kingdom of Judah or Judea. There was also a land called The Philistine City States which is now the Gaza strip.
When the Romans supreased the Jewish people at the end of the Roman - Jewish wars, the Romans renamed the area Syria Palestinia (derived from Israel's traditional enemies the Philistines) as a humiliating punishment which lead to the Jewish diaspora.
Since then, as I said in my previous pots, the area has been under the control of svseral empires. The name Palestine applied vaguely to a region that for the 400 years before World War was part of the Ottoman empire. In that empire, it was divided among several provinces and was never an independent country called Palestine.There was never a Palestinian state. The name Palestine was then used over the centuries to define some or part of the area. In the same way as the term "The Holy Land" was used. There was no specific land or country. Sometimes it was used to refer to the land south of Syria. Sometimes it was used to include Syria. Eastern Palestine was also called Transjordan. Which renders the "from the river to the see" chant redundant as East Palestine, now called Jordan, is across from the river.
With regards to the religious aspect, the real head cases are the Neturei Karta, the ultra orthodox sect who so many like to hold up as "Jews that are anti Israel". They actually do believe they are God's chosen people and that the land of Israel was given to them by God. However, the reason they attend the pro Palestinian marches and are anti Zionist is that they believe any Jews living in a Jewish state are heretics as the Jewish state cannot exist until the Messiah returns. At that point the Land of Israel is for Jews only and non Jews will be forced out. People should remember this the next time they post pictures of themn at Pro Palestinian marches.
How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 09:50 - Apr 20 by GlasgowBlue
With all due respect, a one state solution is pie in the sky. Israel is the world's only Jewish state. With antisemitism at an all time high, a safe haven for Jews is needed more than at any time since the second world war.
Jews have been driven out of pretty much every middle eastern country. The government of Gaza, Hamas, have the eradication of Jews in their charter.
There are 50 Muslim majority countries in the world. Just one Jewish country. Israel.And people want to take that away from them. And taking religion to one side, it's not a God given right that the Jews live in Israel. It's a historical fact going back two millenia.
There has never been a country called Palestine that has been governed by "Palestinians". Since the Jews were driven out 2000 years ago the area has been continually occupied. From the Byzantine Empire, Islamic state of the Mamluks, Ottoman Empire to British Mandated Palestine. People constantly talk about the pre 1967 borders, but what happened between 1948 and 1967. Israel's Arab neighbours, Syria, Egypt and Jordan invaded the Palestinian territory mandated by the UN and claimed it for themselves with no thought for the Palestinian people. We had a two state solution in 1948. The Arab world rejected it. Not because they supported the rights of the Palestinian people, but because they wanted the land for themselves and they didn't want the Jews living there.
A one state solution would see the same thing happen again, but this time the Jewish people would have no defence.
A two state solution is the only real answer. However, that can't be achieved so long as Hamas exists or we have an ultra right wing government under Netanyahu.
With all due respect GB (and I say that sincerely) as I said in my previous post:
In short it's all very confusing, these issues are highly contested between different Jews and non-Jews alike because of their political and religious leanings - but obviously each group genuinely contends that their interpretations of events based on their group's definitions are correct. All this doesn't provide for a great deal of agreement between groups... They all have a different versions of history and resulting "truths".
I believe in every human's life to be equal but as you point out it is the fault of the evil extremists on either side who make the possible appear impossible. Non-extremist normal people want to live in peace and there are plenty of examples throughout history where Jews and Muslims have co-existed in peace.
Historically speaking the Jewish people have faced more antisemitism from Christians than Muslims.
For those of us (including you) who know a bit about the history of the Jews and Israel, Lord Balfour of the Balfour Declaration fame wasn't a benefactor to the Jewish people but a terrible antisemite who wanted the Jews out of Europe at that time. Technically, he was pro-Zionist.
Herzl, the "Father of Zionism" was fully aware of the difference between antisemitism and anti-Zionism. Understanding that difference allow any reader to understand what he meant when he said:
"It would be an excellent idea to call in respectable, accredited anti-Semites as liquidators of property. To the people they would vouch for the fact that we do not wish to bring about the impoverishment of the countries that we leave. At first they must not be given large fees for this; otherwise we shall spoil our instruments and make them despicable as “stooges of the Jews.” Later their fees will increase, and in the end we shall have only Gentile officials in the countries from which we have emigrated. The anti-Semites will become our most dependable friends, the anti-Semitic countries our allies. We want to emigrate as respected people. " Herzl Diary Entry (12 June 1895), The Complete Diaries of Theodor Herzl, Vol.1, 1960, Edited by Raphael Patai, Translated by Harry Zohn, p. 83-84. (wiki)
I really don't want to go round in circles regurgitating tired rebuttals to your truths with my truths so we will have to agree to differ. I tolerate your views on Israel though I don't agree with very many of them. I dislike your rejection of views from non-Zionist Jews labelling them or me as conspiracy theorists or anti-semitic. I don't try to censor your views but I will flag up accusations of antisemitism. Similarly, I would like you to refrain from censoring my views.
I disagree that antisemitism is at an all time high. I do think however that anti-zionism is at an all time high. I have gone to some extent (linking articles by respected Jewish scholars living in Israel and the diaspora) to explain the difference between Judaism and Zionism and the dangers (to Jews) of conflating the two. This wasn't done as covert antisemitism. In my opinion, and in the opinion of many non-Zionist Jews, Zionism is a racist political ideology often dressed up as a reasonable request for a safe home for the Jews.
I have enormous sympathy for Jews inside and outside Israel who are facing "antisemitism" from those ignorant of the difference between zionism and Judaism. So it is for the good of all Jews that antizionism and antisemitism are not conflated.
I believe that when the radical racist ideologies held by Hamas and Netanyahu and their supporters are exposed and condemned by both sides in this conflict, a one state solution won't be the pie in the sky it is today.
0
How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 13:36 - Apr 20 with 921 views
How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 12:42 - Apr 20 by GlasgowBlue
"originally called Palestine". There has never been a land called Palestine. There has been as land called The Kingdom of Israel and a land called the Kingdom of Judah or Judea. There was also a land called The Philistine City States which is now the Gaza strip.
When the Romans supreased the Jewish people at the end of the Roman - Jewish wars, the Romans renamed the area Syria Palestinia (derived from Israel's traditional enemies the Philistines) as a humiliating punishment which lead to the Jewish diaspora.
Since then, as I said in my previous pots, the area has been under the control of svseral empires. The name Palestine applied vaguely to a region that for the 400 years before World War was part of the Ottoman empire. In that empire, it was divided among several provinces and was never an independent country called Palestine.There was never a Palestinian state. The name Palestine was then used over the centuries to define some or part of the area. In the same way as the term "The Holy Land" was used. There was no specific land or country. Sometimes it was used to refer to the land south of Syria. Sometimes it was used to include Syria. Eastern Palestine was also called Transjordan. Which renders the "from the river to the see" chant redundant as East Palestine, now called Jordan, is across from the river.
With regards to the religious aspect, the real head cases are the Neturei Karta, the ultra orthodox sect who so many like to hold up as "Jews that are anti Israel". They actually do believe they are God's chosen people and that the land of Israel was given to them by God. However, the reason they attend the pro Palestinian marches and are anti Zionist is that they believe any Jews living in a Jewish state are heretics as the Jewish state cannot exist until the Messiah returns. At that point the Land of Israel is for Jews only and non Jews will be forced out. People should remember this the next time they post pictures of themn at Pro Palestinian marches.
[Post edited 20 Apr 12:49]
Like I keep saying GB, you will have your truths about the history of Israel and Palestine (which happen to bear a remarkable resemblance to those of Bibi Netanyahu) and others will have a different history.
If there wasn't a land called Palestine, what was "British Mandated Palestine" between 2018 and 1948?
And the existence of the Kingdom of Israel is itself contested between scholars. Those who contend that it did actually exist support the historicity of the biblical narrative. Perhaps you share this belief with the Neturei Karta?
So from my perspective (for what it's worth) you share o part of your historical view of Israel with Netanhayu and a part with the Neturei Karta. That's not to say you affiliate yourself with either of them, of course. But it's interesting because it validates my point that everything connected to the area is wrapped in confusion, debate and disagreement and for those who are so pig-headed as to not see that and who continue to bang the drum of "I'm right, you're wrong" peace in Israel is an absolute impossibility as it has proven to be since 1948.
Furthermore anyone who persists with the claim of being "for peace" are offering mere lip service while they persist in holding these uncompromising beliefs.
I insist, until both sides agree that they have to live together they will continue to eat each other and live in misery and hatred until their eventual obliteration And in the words of the great thinker, Harry Enfield, "If that's what you want, that's what will happen."
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How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 14:07 - Apr 20 with 871 views
How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 13:36 - Apr 20 by ChorleyBoy
Like I keep saying GB, you will have your truths about the history of Israel and Palestine (which happen to bear a remarkable resemblance to those of Bibi Netanyahu) and others will have a different history.
If there wasn't a land called Palestine, what was "British Mandated Palestine" between 2018 and 1948?
And the existence of the Kingdom of Israel is itself contested between scholars. Those who contend that it did actually exist support the historicity of the biblical narrative. Perhaps you share this belief with the Neturei Karta?
So from my perspective (for what it's worth) you share o part of your historical view of Israel with Netanhayu and a part with the Neturei Karta. That's not to say you affiliate yourself with either of them, of course. But it's interesting because it validates my point that everything connected to the area is wrapped in confusion, debate and disagreement and for those who are so pig-headed as to not see that and who continue to bang the drum of "I'm right, you're wrong" peace in Israel is an absolute impossibility as it has proven to be since 1948.
Furthermore anyone who persists with the claim of being "for peace" are offering mere lip service while they persist in holding these uncompromising beliefs.
I insist, until both sides agree that they have to live together they will continue to eat each other and live in misery and hatred until their eventual obliteration And in the words of the great thinker, Harry Enfield, "If that's what you want, that's what will happen."
How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 21:40 - Apr 19 by Swansea_Blue
I think that’s the crux of the problems on here. People are biased. There’s nothing wrong with that of course - why shouldn’t you be biased if you have direct experience from the Palestinian side, and why shouldn’t someone like Glassers have a different experience if they’re personally impacted by coming from the other side. It natural and to be expected.
The actors in the nations involved can’t currently find a way to bridge those divides. Maybe we can on here? Maybe not, who knows. I hope we can.
I am not convinced it is biased to condemn the attack on Ukraine, the situation in Sudan, the 7 October attack and the attack on Gaza, as I would do.
What does seem biased though (and this will be picked up in the Global South) is for the US to agree a package of $61 billion for the defender in the case of Ukraine, and $26 billion for the attacker in the case of Israel.
Interestingly, $9 billion of the Israeli package is for humanitarian purposes, but no aid will be allowed to go to UNWRA, suggesting the US supports the aims of Israel in shutting it down, with the implication it might have for Palestinian refugees.
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How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 12:27 - Apr 21 with 592 views
How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 11:35 - Apr 21 by DJR
I am not convinced it is biased to condemn the attack on Ukraine, the situation in Sudan, the 7 October attack and the attack on Gaza, as I would do.
What does seem biased though (and this will be picked up in the Global South) is for the US to agree a package of $61 billion for the defender in the case of Ukraine, and $26 billion for the attacker in the case of Israel.
Interestingly, $9 billion of the Israeli package is for humanitarian purposes, but no aid will be allowed to go to UNWRA, suggesting the US supports the aims of Israel in shutting it down, with the implication it might have for Palestinian refugees.
Speaking of Ukraine, if we take Charley’s logic then surely the only solution to that conflict is a one state solution with Russians and Ukrainians living in harmony with each other? We could call it the USSR or something similar.
How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 12:27 - Apr 21 by GlasgowBlue
Speaking of Ukraine, if we take Charley’s logic then surely the only solution to that conflict is a one state solution with Russians and Ukrainians living in harmony with each other? We could call it the USSR or something similar.
I don't think the comparison with Ukraine is apt, and to be fair to Chorley he is not the only person to have proposed a one-state solution.
The problem it seems to me is that increasing settlements in East Jerusalem and the West Banks have made a two-state solution impossible, and in fact we have ended up with a de facto one-state solution comprising Israel, East Jerusalem and the West Bank, each with a mix of Jews and Muslims. Indeed, then U.S. Vice President Joe Biden said in 2016 that due to expanding settlements, an eventual "one-state reality" was the most likely outcome.
This is a factor leading some people to call for a one-state solution, amongst them Gideon Levy of the left. And even some on the right have supported this according to the following from Wikipedia.
"In recent years, some politicians and political commentators representing the right wing of Israeli politics have advocated annexing the West Bank, and granting the West Bank's Palestinian population Israeli citizenship while maintaining Israel's current status as a Jewish state with recognized minorities. Proposals from the Israeli right for a one-state solution tend to avoid advocating the annexation of the Gaza Strip, due to its large and generally hostile Palestinian population and its status as a self-governing territory without any Israeli settlements or permanent military presence"
Obviously a two-state solution would be preferable, not least because it would maintain a Jewish homeland, but with the increasing settlements and the virtual destruction of Gaza, a two-state solution appears to me to be pie-in-the-sky.
[Post edited 21 Apr 15:04]
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How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 15:27 - Apr 21 with 449 views
The problem it seems to me is that increasing settlements in East Jerusalem and the West Banks have made a two-state solution impossible, and in fact we have ended up with a de facto one-state solution comprising Israel, East Jerusalem and the West Bank, each with a mix of Jews and Muslims. Indeed, then U.S. Vice President Joe Biden said in 2016 that due to expanding settlements, an eventual "one-state reality" was the most likely outcome.
This is a factor leading some people to call for a one-state solution, amongst them Gideon Levy of the left. And even some on the right have supported this according to the following from Wikipedia.
"In recent years, some politicians and political commentators representing the right wing of Israeli politics have advocated annexing the West Bank, and granting the West Bank's Palestinian population Israeli citizenship while maintaining Israel's current status as a Jewish state with recognized minorities. Proposals from the Israeli right for a one-state solution tend to avoid advocating the annexation of the Gaza Strip, due to its large and generally hostile Palestinian population and its status as a self-governing territory without any Israeli settlements or permanent military presence"
Obviously a two-state solution would be preferable, not least because it would maintain a Jewish homeland, but with the increasing settlements and the virtual destruction of Gaza, a two-state solution appears to me to be pie-in-the-sky.
[Post edited 21 Apr 15:04]
This, of course, looks like a long term plan. Hence the persistent illegal settlements. The one state solution will still be a Jewish homeland....
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How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 16:55 - Apr 21 with 391 views
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