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So do we go with Zimmerman and say 'Propaganda, all is phoney ?' on 15:54 - Nov 18 by noggin
How many of these placards did you see and in what size crowd? I haven't seen what you have so can't comment.
Every official placard. In a crowd of about 100 but it is a snapshot of a wider protest. From an instagram account which is a mates work colleague who is there protesting.
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So do we go with Zimmerman and say 'Propaganda, all is phoney ?' on 16:04 - Nov 18 with 3831 views
So do we go with Zimmerman and say 'Propaganda, all is phoney ?' on 16:00 - Nov 18 by Rob88
Every official placard. In a crowd of about 100 but it is a snapshot of a wider protest. From an instagram account which is a mates work colleague who is there protesting.
So do we go with Zimmerman and say 'Propaganda, all is phoney ?' on 12:20 - Nov 18 by pointofblue
Worryingly I've spoken to some friends - very much not right wing - who have spoken about their concerns over the BBC's coverage, saying it's pro Hamas, stating the failure of the corporation to call them terrorists, misleadingly not including Hamas-led in early reports when referring to Gazan ministries and, most recently, Jeremy Bowen's piece to camera where he said the weaponry in the main hospital may be for defensive reasons. It does feel like views are becoming entrenched, and maybe I'm not completely surprised the BBC is caught in the response.
Every BBC report I have seen states that the UK designates Hamas a terrorist organisation very clearly. Every time.
EDIT: I think the exact phrase they use references "many Western Governments, including the UK". They have also frequently referenced back to the Hamas attacks that initiated the response and have interviewed many Israeli's who have family members who were kidnapped or murdered. Their reports have been equally harrowing and they have correspondents in Gaza and those in Israel.
So do we go with Zimmerman and say 'Propaganda, all is phoney ?' on 16:14 - Nov 18 by noggin
What is? Perhaps it would be easier to show us your evidence of whatever it is you're talking about.
As someone who likes to get to the bottom of things, I think the attached link shows the type of placard in question, and there appears to be a misreading of "Socialist Party" as "socialist purity".
The Socialist Party is the successor to Militant (hardly a representative or reputable organisation), and digging a bit deeper it appears they have a vision of Jewish and Palestinian workers' uprisings (or intifadas) to create twin socialist Jewish and Palestinian states, which to my mind is for the birds, although it does explain the expression "socialist intifada".
Happy to be corrected, if it really is "socialist purity", but if I am right, it just goes to show how easy it is for misinformation to be spread and baseless and sinister accusations to be made.
[Post edited 19 Nov 2023 10:19]
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How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 19:16 - Nov 18 with 3599 views
Returning this thread to what it should be about, this just from the Guardian, Action Aid being an organisation I give a monthly donation to.
Describing the overcrowded environment and lack of medical suppiles at Al Awda hospital, Adnan Radi, the northern Gaza hospital’s head of obstetrics and gynecology, told the humanitarian organization Action Aid:
In the last [few] days, we have become the only hospital in the entire Gaza Strip and the north who receive obstetrics, cesarean sections and gynecology services. Because all hospitals in Gaza and the north, after the siege, lost any services for women and obstetrics.’
Two days ago, we performed 16 caesarean sections under exceptional circumstances. There were cases of very severe bleeding and placental abruption as a result of difficulty in access, strikes etc… We did not have blood transfusion services… Blood transfusion is very limited, the blood bank has been closed and is difficult to access…
There are many children [who] have lost their lives. There are premature babies born at 30 or 31 weeks and we do not have anything to deal with [their cases]. There are no artificial respirators, there are none at all. We look at a child after birth, [their] weight is 1200g, 1300g, 1400g or one and a half kilograms. We do not have anything to deal with them. We look at babies losing their life because we have nothing.
In addition, there are women who suffer from postpartum bleeding and bleeding after operations and there are no blood transfusions at all. Two days ago, had a placental abruption case, and it was opened two or three times. We were trying to find two units of blood to compensate for what was lost. With difficulty, her life was saved.
[Post edited 18 Nov 2023 19:20]
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How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 19:46 - Nov 18 with 3547 views
what is a proportionate response to the Hamas pogrom of October 7? You obviously think the Israeli response is disproportionate (heavily implied by your loaded question). so if the Israeli response is disproportionate you must have a definition of proportionate. what is it?
How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 19:46 - Nov 18 by phillymark
Could you answer the question....
what is a proportionate response to the Hamas pogrom of October 7? You obviously think the Israeli response is disproportionate (heavily implied by your loaded question). so if the Israeli response is disproportionate you must have a definition of proportionate. what is it?
Anything clinical and directed. Not anything that ends in indiscriminate killing or thousands, dispalcement of hundreds of thousands, mass disease and the creation of thousands of new angry recruits for nasty organisations.
The really clever response would be to stop settling the West Bank and give people back what was taken. That would start reducing sympathy for Hamas swiftly.
[Post edited 18 Nov 2023 20:13]
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How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 22:18 - Nov 18 with 3434 views
How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 19:46 - Nov 18 by phillymark
Could you answer the question....
what is a proportionate response to the Hamas pogrom of October 7? You obviously think the Israeli response is disproportionate (heavily implied by your loaded question). so if the Israeli response is disproportionate you must have a definition of proportionate. what is it?
Do you think deliberate actions against civilians such as preventing fresh water, food, medicine, fuel and electricity getting to them is proportionate? Let alone bombing safe places they have been told to evacuate to and keeping the border closed to those with passports from other nationalities are proportionate?
Maybe dialogue and truly targeting those responsible would be proportionate. Even the poorly framed "war on terror" was nowhere near as disproportionate as this! This is nothing less than a genocide.
How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 22:18 - Nov 18 by Nthsuffolkblue
Do you think deliberate actions against civilians such as preventing fresh water, food, medicine, fuel and electricity getting to them is proportionate? Let alone bombing safe places they have been told to evacuate to and keeping the border closed to those with passports from other nationalities are proportionate?
Maybe dialogue and truly targeting those responsible would be proportionate. Even the poorly framed "war on terror" was nowhere near as disproportionate as this! This is nothing less than a genocide.
Another Shelter tonight. Ordering 2 million people to gatrher in a 10 x 10km area.
This is digusting and genocidal. Enough. No more excuses. No more claiming its anti semitic, or "not supporting the right to self defence" to oppose this abhorrent violence. This is retribution and murder.
[Post edited 18 Nov 2023 22:40]
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How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 23:15 - Nov 18 with 3364 views
How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 22:18 - Nov 18 by Nthsuffolkblue
Do you think deliberate actions against civilians such as preventing fresh water, food, medicine, fuel and electricity getting to them is proportionate? Let alone bombing safe places they have been told to evacuate to and keeping the border closed to those with passports from other nationalities are proportionate?
Maybe dialogue and truly targeting those responsible would be proportionate. Even the poorly framed "war on terror" was nowhere near as disproportionate as this! This is nothing less than a genocide.
A few questions. And I'd appreciate direct answers.
1. Dialogue with whom? Hamas? They are not the IRA. They don't want to negotiate a free Palestine state. The want to a) wipe Israel off the face of the earth and b) eradicate all Jews and Christians from the middle east. It's in their charter.
Do you seriously expect Israel to negotiate with people who not only slaughtered civilians on 7 October but decapitated babies, conducted mass gang rapes of grandmothers, mothers and teenagers before murdering their victims (Some during mid rape), mutilated women's genitalia, put live babies in ovens, cut open a pregnant woman and proceed to pull out the baby from her womb (whilst slapping her around the face so keep her awake in order to witness the brutality) before shooting the woman in the head and stabbing the baby multiple times whilst still attached to the cord and numerous other instances of barbarity?
2. Why are you not directing your point regarding closed borders to the Egyptian government? Hamas control the Gaza side of the border. Egypt the other.
3. When making your statement "the poorly framed "war on terror" was nowhere near as disproportionate as this", were you aware that the Hmas figures, if they are to be believed, of civilian deaths stands at 11,000 (the IDF are really rubbish if they haven't killed. a single member of Hmas since strikes started) whilst the civilian casualties in Iraq are estimated between 280,771-315,190 and 46,319 Afghan civilians plus 67,000 people were killed in Pakistan in relation to the Afghan war. So that a rough figure of just over 400,000* civilian deaths in "the poorly framed "war on terror" compared to the Hamas figures of 11,000*.
4. Although you didn't post it, how does the IDF make "clinical and directed" strikes on Hamas when they embed themselves in schools, civilian areas and hospitals?
A genuine answer to the 4 questions would be appreciated.
How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 19:16 - Nov 18 by DJR
Returning this thread to what it should be about, this just from the Guardian, Action Aid being an organisation I give a monthly donation to.
Describing the overcrowded environment and lack of medical suppiles at Al Awda hospital, Adnan Radi, the northern Gaza hospital’s head of obstetrics and gynecology, told the humanitarian organization Action Aid:
In the last [few] days, we have become the only hospital in the entire Gaza Strip and the north who receive obstetrics, cesarean sections and gynecology services. Because all hospitals in Gaza and the north, after the siege, lost any services for women and obstetrics.’
Two days ago, we performed 16 caesarean sections under exceptional circumstances. There were cases of very severe bleeding and placental abruption as a result of difficulty in access, strikes etc… We did not have blood transfusion services… Blood transfusion is very limited, the blood bank has been closed and is difficult to access…
There are many children [who] have lost their lives. There are premature babies born at 30 or 31 weeks and we do not have anything to deal with [their cases]. There are no artificial respirators, there are none at all. We look at a child after birth, [their] weight is 1200g, 1300g, 1400g or one and a half kilograms. We do not have anything to deal with them. We look at babies losing their life because we have nothing.
In addition, there are women who suffer from postpartum bleeding and bleeding after operations and there are no blood transfusions at all. Two days ago, had a placental abruption case, and it was opened two or three times. We were trying to find two units of blood to compensate for what was lost. With difficulty, her life was saved.
[Post edited 18 Nov 2023 19:20]
The medical staff who have stayed on when many would have fled are exceptional beyond belief, aren't they ?
Edit: Keep to forgetting to change the title of this thread
How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 23:15 - Nov 18 by GlasgowBlue
A few questions. And I'd appreciate direct answers.
1. Dialogue with whom? Hamas? They are not the IRA. They don't want to negotiate a free Palestine state. The want to a) wipe Israel off the face of the earth and b) eradicate all Jews and Christians from the middle east. It's in their charter.
Do you seriously expect Israel to negotiate with people who not only slaughtered civilians on 7 October but decapitated babies, conducted mass gang rapes of grandmothers, mothers and teenagers before murdering their victims (Some during mid rape), mutilated women's genitalia, put live babies in ovens, cut open a pregnant woman and proceed to pull out the baby from her womb (whilst slapping her around the face so keep her awake in order to witness the brutality) before shooting the woman in the head and stabbing the baby multiple times whilst still attached to the cord and numerous other instances of barbarity?
2. Why are you not directing your point regarding closed borders to the Egyptian government? Hamas control the Gaza side of the border. Egypt the other.
3. When making your statement "the poorly framed "war on terror" was nowhere near as disproportionate as this", were you aware that the Hmas figures, if they are to be believed, of civilian deaths stands at 11,000 (the IDF are really rubbish if they haven't killed. a single member of Hmas since strikes started) whilst the civilian casualties in Iraq are estimated between 280,771-315,190 and 46,319 Afghan civilians plus 67,000 people were killed in Pakistan in relation to the Afghan war. So that a rough figure of just over 400,000* civilian deaths in "the poorly framed "war on terror" compared to the Hamas figures of 11,000*.
4. Although you didn't post it, how does the IDF make "clinical and directed" strikes on Hamas when they embed themselves in schools, civilian areas and hospitals?
A genuine answer to the 4 questions would be appreciated.
*each civilliasn death an absolute tragedy.
Israel want to elimnate the presence of a Palestinian homeland or state.
You keep talking about the charter, as if it represents all palestinians, and even all people connected with Hamas.
So far the evidence of embedding in hospitals is very limited. But even if it is correct, the humanitarian answer is not to just say "feck it, we will kill the lot."
Get out of the west bank, withdraw the "settlers" (inverted commas because they are invaders not settlers) and watch support for extremists wane.
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How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 08:10 - Nov 19 with 3171 views
How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 23:15 - Nov 18 by GlasgowBlue
A few questions. And I'd appreciate direct answers.
1. Dialogue with whom? Hamas? They are not the IRA. They don't want to negotiate a free Palestine state. The want to a) wipe Israel off the face of the earth and b) eradicate all Jews and Christians from the middle east. It's in their charter.
Do you seriously expect Israel to negotiate with people who not only slaughtered civilians on 7 October but decapitated babies, conducted mass gang rapes of grandmothers, mothers and teenagers before murdering their victims (Some during mid rape), mutilated women's genitalia, put live babies in ovens, cut open a pregnant woman and proceed to pull out the baby from her womb (whilst slapping her around the face so keep her awake in order to witness the brutality) before shooting the woman in the head and stabbing the baby multiple times whilst still attached to the cord and numerous other instances of barbarity?
2. Why are you not directing your point regarding closed borders to the Egyptian government? Hamas control the Gaza side of the border. Egypt the other.
3. When making your statement "the poorly framed "war on terror" was nowhere near as disproportionate as this", were you aware that the Hmas figures, if they are to be believed, of civilian deaths stands at 11,000 (the IDF are really rubbish if they haven't killed. a single member of Hmas since strikes started) whilst the civilian casualties in Iraq are estimated between 280,771-315,190 and 46,319 Afghan civilians plus 67,000 people were killed in Pakistan in relation to the Afghan war. So that a rough figure of just over 400,000* civilian deaths in "the poorly framed "war on terror" compared to the Hamas figures of 11,000*.
4. Although you didn't post it, how does the IDF make "clinical and directed" strikes on Hamas when they embed themselves in schools, civilian areas and hospitals?
A genuine answer to the 4 questions would be appreciated.
*each civilliasn death an absolute tragedy.
I'm only going to address points 3 and 4:
3). You've repeatedly stating similar things to "if Hamas are to be believed" when addressing the number of deaths in Gaza but these numbers have been pretty much agreed on by MSF, the UN and a number of other organisations. I don't think it's right to cast doubt on the numbers unless you have something specific to back it up. Dropping comments like you have "poisons the well" around figures which seem to have a fairly wide consensus given you've provided no alternative source of figures.
4). I know you're not happy with the BBC but they have reported that the IDF are yet to produce any evidence of a Hamas base in the hospital and no evidence at all of a Hamas presence in the school bombed yesterday. That was a UN run safe building. Perhaps evidence will emerge but to cite these locations as bases without evidence should probably involve some caution. Happy to be corrected if such evidence is available.
You say each civilian death is a tragedy but also seem to imply "what are the IDF supposed to do". I don't think that's a very clear position. Can you let us know what you think they should do?
SB
[Post edited 19 Nov 2023 8:21]
Avatar - IC410 - Tadpoles Nebula
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How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 08:22 - Nov 19 with 3151 views
How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 08:10 - Nov 19 by StokieBlue
I'm only going to address points 3 and 4:
3). You've repeatedly stating similar things to "if Hamas are to be believed" when addressing the number of deaths in Gaza but these numbers have been pretty much agreed on by MSF, the UN and a number of other organisations. I don't think it's right to cast doubt on the numbers unless you have something specific to back it up. Dropping comments like you have "poisons the well" around figures which seem to have a fairly wide consensus given you've provided no alternative source of figures.
4). I know you're not happy with the BBC but they have reported that the IDF are yet to produce any evidence of a Hamas base in the hospital and no evidence at all of a Hamas presence in the school bombed yesterday. That was a UN run safe building. Perhaps evidence will emerge but to cite these locations as bases without evidence should probably involve some caution. Happy to be corrected if such evidence is available.
You say each civilian death is a tragedy but also seem to imply "what are the IDF supposed to do". I don't think that's a very clear position. Can you let us know what you think they should do?
SB
[Post edited 19 Nov 2023 8:21]
Either address all 4 questions or none at all. You can’t just cherry pick some and ignore others.
If you answer all 4 then I’m happy to address your own questions.
How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 08:22 - Nov 19 by GlasgowBlue
Either address all 4 questions or none at all. You can’t just cherry pick some and ignore others.
If you answer all 4 then I’m happy to address your own questions.
That's hugely unreasonable and certainly not in the spirit of open debate.
The first two questions are about different issues to the last two questions which are around sources, reporting and response method which is what I have taken issue with.
There is no reason why I should have to address them all in order to get a response to specifics that I would like clarified. By this logic everyone could always avoid answering questions by putting something ridiculous in their posts which is ignored and then citing that not all the post was covered so I don't need to respond.
SB
Avatar - IC410 - Tadpoles Nebula
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How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 08:33 - Nov 19 with 3111 views
How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 00:08 - Nov 19 by redrickstuhaart
Israel want to elimnate the presence of a Palestinian homeland or state.
You keep talking about the charter, as if it represents all palestinians, and even all people connected with Hamas.
So far the evidence of embedding in hospitals is very limited. But even if it is correct, the humanitarian answer is not to just say "feck it, we will kill the lot."
Get out of the west bank, withdraw the "settlers" (inverted commas because they are invaders not settlers) and watch support for extremists wane.
You haven’t addressed the four questions I asked in my post.
But I do find it ironic that in point 2 that up you say that I talk about the charter as if it represents all Palestinians (you've completely made that up as I only refer to Hamas) and yet in point 1 you make the generalisation that Israel want to eliminate the presence of a Palestinian homeland or state (not the Israeli government or a small number of far right ultra religious zealots and terrorist sympathisers*)
*Look. See how easy it is to condemn extremists on both sides.
How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 08:27 - Nov 19 by StokieBlue
That's hugely unreasonable and certainly not in the spirit of open debate.
The first two questions are about different issues to the last two questions which are around sources, reporting and response method which is what I have taken issue with.
There is no reason why I should have to address them all in order to get a response to specifics that I would like clarified. By this logic everyone could always avoid answering questions by putting something ridiculous in their posts which is ignored and then citing that not all the post was covered so I don't need to respond.
SB
All 4 questions were asked by me in reply to a specific post, and should be addressed as a whole. I don’t think that it is unreasonable that certain questions aren’t cherry picked whilst others are ignored.
If you have an opinion on what is going on inIsrael and Gaza at the moment the surely yiu have an interest in the question one and two?
I’m going out now and will be quite happy to return to this on my return later today.
How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 08:39 - Nov 19 by GlasgowBlue
All 4 questions were asked by me in reply to a specific post, and should be addressed as a whole. I don’t think that it is unreasonable that certain questions aren’t cherry picked whilst others are ignored.
If you have an opinion on what is going on inIsrael and Gaza at the moment the surely yiu have an interest in the question one and two?
I’m going out now and will be quite happy to return to this on my return later today.
Come on GB, this is nonsense :(.
I've not been involved in the debate on the other points so why should I be forced to respond to them in order to get responses to points entirely unrelated to them that I would like clarification on?
It is unreasonable and I am sorry you don't see it that way. Enjoy your day.
SB
Avatar - IC410 - Tadpoles Nebula
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How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 09:24 - Nov 19 with 3040 views
How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 19:46 - Nov 18 by phillymark
Could you answer the question....
what is a proportionate response to the Hamas pogrom of October 7? You obviously think the Israeli response is disproportionate (heavily implied by your loaded question). so if the Israeli response is disproportionate you must have a definition of proportionate. what is it?
I read your moving article from the Merionite and fully understand and share your pain on the awful pogroms that took place on 7 October. And as you will see from my comments on GB's thread about antisemitism, I completely abhor and condemn antisemitism.
The events of 7 October clearly justified Israel in taking greater action against Hamas than they had up to until then, but it is very difficult in the circumstances to define what a proportionate response would be.
Much easier in my view to look at things which, in my view and in the view of UN and other agencies, appear disproportionate. Indeed, reading between the lines, it even appears that the Biden administration is slightly concerned with some of what the Israel government has been getting up to.
A couple of examples spring to mind, and which are made worse by the greater suffering of ordinary civilians than was the case before 7 October. One is that 26 out of 36 hospitals are no longer operating. Another is that, according to figures from the UN OCHA, prior to 7 October 500 aid trucks a day entered Gaza, but since 20 October (when trucks first re-entered) only 1,139 have entered in total, and none in the last four days. In addition, more children have been killed in Gaza in the last six weeks than annually in all conflicts since 2019.
Another factor to bear in mind is that the families of some of the hostages believe that Netanyahu is favouring the ground offensive over the release of hostages. And I would certainly take this view, if a member of my family were being held hostage in Gaza.
[Post edited 19 Nov 2023 9:35]
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How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 09:26 - Nov 19 with 3024 views
How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 08:47 - Nov 19 by StokieBlue
Come on GB, this is nonsense :(.
I've not been involved in the debate on the other points so why should I be forced to respond to them in order to get responses to points entirely unrelated to them that I would like clarification on?
It is unreasonable and I am sorry you don't see it that way. Enjoy your day.
SB
Ok. I don’t think it is unreasonable to expect somebody who wants me to justify what I have posted in 3 and 4 without giving an option in 1) Do you seriously expect Israel to negotiate with people who not only slaughtered civilians on 7 October but decapitated babies, conducted mass gang rapes of grandmothers, mothers and teenagers before murdering their victims (Some during mid rape), mutilated women's genitalia, put live babies in ovens, cut open a pregnant woman and proceed to pull out the baby from her womb (whilst slapping her around the face so keep her awake in order to witness the brutality) before shooting the woman in the head and stabbing the baby multiple times whilst still attached to the cord and numerous other instances of barbarity?
I think it’s important to address this because so many people who want a ceasefire or negotiations between the 2 sides fail to address the sheer barbarity of October 7th and constantly refer to the negotiations between the a British government and the IRA. The two are nothing like each other. Either in the way they conduct their campaigns or the aims of their respective organisations. And
I’m saying that as somebody who is not the biggest fan of the Provisional IRA and their campaign against civilians in the 1970’s, 80’s and early 90’s. But I accept that they had a clear and defined aim. A United Ireland. They didn’t want to wipe Great Britain off the face of the earth. Or cleanse Ireland of all religions but Roman Catholics.
But it’s seems you are either unable or unwilling, so I will address what you asked me later this afternoon when I’m back later this afternoon.
How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 08:39 - Nov 19 by GlasgowBlue
All 4 questions were asked by me in reply to a specific post, and should be addressed as a whole. I don’t think that it is unreasonable that certain questions aren’t cherry picked whilst others are ignored.
If you have an opinion on what is going on inIsrael and Gaza at the moment the surely yiu have an interest in the question one and two?
I’m going out now and will be quite happy to return to this on my return later today.
All 4 questions are actually irrelevant to the pont you were replying to and were there to evade it.
But if you insist on that game. 1. DO I expect negotiations with Hamas? There is really no alternative. Should Hamas be expected to negotiate with a nation which invades and displaces its people, and settles its people's lands? But this slaughter can cease without any such negotiations. Yes there is the hostage situation. We cna be pretty confident that wont be resolved without some sort of discussion.
2 No one is talking about closed borders. Why should these people leave their country and be funelled into a small area where they are still not remotely safe, may well still get bombed, and will be subject to disease and famine? Address the point! 2 million people are now ordered to be in a 10km by 10km area with no facilities. It is utterly inhumane and a war crime.
3 Irrelevant to the key point.
4. If you cant you dont. How does the current approach solve the situation? Lets assume that for each Hamas lunatic killed, there is 1 Hamas connected person who is not actually an extremist, and 1 innocent person. (a generous proportion I suggest) Lets assume the innocent person has parents, grandparents and a couple of siblings. For each Hamas person killed, there are 8 bitter angry relatives of the innocent person who hat eIsrael more than they did before and might be prepared to do something about it.
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